Calling Real Tweed Material Installers))))beep)))))))))))beep)))))))))))))

[Platefire]

I'm getting into my head cab work for my 5E3+project. It's going to be the real tweed material. I did one tweed job about 10 years ago to a Gibson GA-40 that turned out pretty good but my memory is faded. As I recall tweed seemed to be more forgiving than my tolex experiances. I don't have that amp anymore so I can't use it as an example. A couple of questions to get me back up to speed:

I used a 50/50 combination of denatured achohol and amber shellack to provide an aged look to the tweed. I also used the same thing to pre-treat/seal the sanded cab wood before installing the tweed. That was the instructions I was getting at the time. Is this good proceedure?

I can't recall for the life of me rather I applied the aging treatment to the tweed prior to installation of tweed or after?? What is the correct method?

Also I got some dark spots in my tweed that were obviously darker than the rest of the treated tweed. I would like to avoid that so all the tweed tone will be consistant.

Also instersecting tweed parts (sides and middle) join with tweed lines at opposing angles. This gets pretty tricky when installing materal to back plate and matching opposing lines on cab tweed.

I need a tweed refresher course. Those with experiance in this I would appreciate your help. Good practical experance pointers, pictures, links and advice is welcomed.  Thanks, Platefire

[Blind Lemon]

"I used a 50/50 combination of denatured achohol and amber shellack to provide an aged look to the tweed. I also used the same thing to pre-treat/seal the sanded cab wood before installing the tweed. That was the instructions I was getting at the time. Is this good proceedure?"

              No, I never pretreated the cab before.

"I can't recall for the life of me rather I applied the aging treatment to the tweed prior to installation of tweed or after?? What is the correct method?"

          Install the raw tweed first then apply the shellac. If you apply the tinted shellac first it tends to go on blotchy so I put clear shellac on first, just a couple of lite coats and then the tinted.

          And heres the cut pattern. It will help you get the seams were they look right.

[Blind Lemon]

How about a pic of a corner?

[Platefire]

Blind Lemon

Thanks so much! Thats probably why I got the dark spots in a couple of places last time. So Install tweed raw, first a couple of light coats of clear and then add the 50/50 combination. Thanks for the cutout pattern also.

What kind of glue did you use. I've always used regular contact cement.

I also found a tweed installation tutorial. I will try to find the link and post it. Take a look and see what you think of their methodology. Platefire

http://adlibmusic.net/Tolex/index.htm

[Blind Lemon]

Yep, I use reg. contact cement. I got a Buddy who uses Elmers, It works great but you have to do it over a couple of days and you need clamps. He use he uses a heat gun on the corners to get the glue tacky and it works pretty good. He uses the white glue for ease of removal later. As you know with contact cement you can get it done in one setting.

Also using that cut pattern, I cut  the material to the exact size that I'm going to apply to the cab.

If you have any more questions just holler.

BL

[Platefire]

BL

  I don't know what you mean by clamps? The only clamps I've got are for the cab to hold both ends of the corners at true 90 degrees. In the past on tolex or tweed with contact cement I ususally always have bubbles after application of the material and I sit and watch TV and push the bubbles back down until they finally stay stuck.
  In the past I have used exact size for my material also. The guy on the linked tutorial said he has about 2" extra and then trims. Before cutting I determine exact size deminsions, double check them then mark the cut lines with a light pencel. So I have all my pieces marked on the material before I cut it out---and of course double check again before cutting. The corners cuts have always been real touchy. I have looked close at your illistration on the corner---good work. It's a little hard to see exactly how you tucked the top part intersecting with the side at the 90 degree angle. So any tips on corners is welcome. {:>) Platefire

[Dynaflow]

 I think he meant clamps if you use white glue which won't tack and hold at all till it drys...

Regards,

Dyna

[Platefire]

OK, Thanks Dyna. I do tweed and tolex but it's so long in between installations that I get all excited about going into unfamiliar territory. I just want to do a good job! Once you set that material on the cab with contact cement it is a very slim window for adjustment. Kind of nerve racking!

[Dynaflow]

 You ain't kidding! Once both surfaces tack its on there like a barnacle... :D Never tried tweed, but I can only imagine cause you get the pattern skewed and it'd sure be noticeable. Good luck with it.

Regards,

Dyna

[Blind Lemon]

The corners are not that bad....on this tweed don't go 45 degrees like you would on tolex....go straight across the the top like mine and it will line up. I just went and measured my top overlap and its 1/2 inch or a really the sides are 1/2 inch longer on top and bottom....do the sides first then top and bottom.......I also practice by doing the bottom back corners first. ;)

BL

[Platefire]

BTW-where do you get your tweed? I've been looking at Angila where it's
$30.00 for the tweed 36"x54" and $13.00 shipping.

[Blind Lemon]

Probably as cheap as any.

http://www.parts-express.com//pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=261-850&CFID=963591&CFTOKEN=20597397

BL

[Platefire]

Thanks BL, looks like my price aint bad at all. Guess I'll go ahead and pull the trigger. Just need to locate some clear shellac probably at Stines or Lowes. I couldn't find anything at Sup Wal Wart that said the word. Platefire

[evacuated]

Antique Electronic Supply is also a good place to get the materials you need.

www.tubesandmore.com


$29.95/yd


$17.95/quart
This stuff is way better than contact cement, and you can pull it off and reposition if you need to before you burnish it down.

Here's a couple of cabs finished with a mix of 60% clear and 30% amber shellac, cut about 2to1 with alcohol. Brush it on fast and you won't get blotches. In a couple of the pics you can see the corner detail pretty good.
In the summer I spray it on. Fruit flies LOVE the smell of shellac/alcohol for some reason.. :D
http://s28.photobucket.com/albums/c247/sportster4eva/5f2a-and-extension-cab/

[Blind Lemon]

Hey Platefire look for the clear Bullseye shellac in a spray can.

Sweet build evacuated. A parallel single ended 5F2a? I got one that runs a pair of 5581s.

BL

[Platefire]

Thanks. I ordered my tweed this weekend. I am finishing wiring of my 5E3 and soon as I get that done I will be concentrating on cab finishing. Will have more questions when I get into it. Platefire

[Platefire]

I picked up a can of the clear bulls eye in a spray can today. I've got some old scrap pieces of tweed I'm going to experment with to help get myself back up to speed. I've got an old can bulls eye amber and denatured A I need to to check and make sure it's still good. It's been a few years!

[Blind Lemon]

Hey PF,
      How'd the cover job go? I'd like to see some pics.

         BL

[Platefire]

I haven't  done it yet. I'm just now starting to work on the cab with the amp up and running. Its just I've been working overtime last two weekends, lot of family stuff  happening lately and just generally plum busy!  ;D For instance I got my two cans of wood filler out night before last fill in the holes and sand off---but both cans were dried up. Last cab was about 3 years ago. So I got some new filler last night---slow progress beween all the busyness. 

I'll be warming this thread up with lots of questions when I get it routed, sanded and ready for tweed.Plate

[Platefire]

Hay BL

I was expermenting with old scrap pieces of tweed last night. I applied contact cenment rather lightly to wood and the back of tweed. I applied the tweed to the wood and immediatly noticed dark splotches
of glue bleed through on the surface. I tried another piece of tweed on the same piece of wood and only applied the glue to the wood only. I applied that and it was better but still got a small splotch of bleed through at the top. I let it dry overnight and the splotches on both pieces did get lighter but haven't completely dissappeard. They might get better with further drying?

How do you apply the contact cement to aviod this? or will it dissapear with drying? We've has a lot of rain lately and the humidity is high. Platefire

[Blind Lemon]

Sorry if I'm late to the party. ;)

If it were me I'd buy new contact cement. It has been a while since I have done tweed.....but......I painted on the contact cement on the box and used a couple/3 of coats of 3M77 on the tweed and I didn't have any trouble.....but......I have been putting Tolex on all the amps lately and paint it on both. That being said I hear that I was lucky using the 3M77. I still have that Head and Cab and its still holding. As far as the bleed through I didn't have a problem, but again I was spraying it on. Also the tweed I had, got from Parts Express on sale was very stiff and felt as if it were coated. Are you pouring it on and spreading it or just spreading it out?

And on the contact cement not holding good, make sure to read the can on temp. requirements. I was covering my new TW Rocket build the other night in the garage and it was getting in the 50s and the contact cement wasn't holding. Scared me to death and I ain't afraid of nothin........well maybe my wife.........used a hair dryer to warm it all up and it stuck, after that I kept the contact cement in hot water to keep it warm.

How bad are the spotches?

BL

[Platefire]

Attached is pictures of the test samples. The piece of wood with two samples, the bottom one is where I painted on contact cement on both the wood and tweed. I also added two clear coats of shelac and one coat of 50/50 mixture. It's not terrible but enought to bug me!

The top piece is the one where I just glued the wood only. It has two clear coats of shelac only.

The other pix on a single sample is the Super 77 by 3M. I sprayed both wood and tweed. Tried to do it lightly. It has no finishing coats.

I read today that one thing to be carefull on tweed to prevent bleed through is be sure to spread the glue lightly and evenly. I think the brush might be hard to get even. I was at Wall Marts tonight and got some small 3" wide paint rollers. I think I will try that to see if it works better. Might try to get a new batch of glue too. I'll get it right, it may take a day or two to figure it out. Thanks, Plate

[Blind Lemon]

Keep the thread updated and let us know. I am particularity interested because I think I'm getting an order for 2 Tweed 5F6-A Bassmans. My buddy here who has been building/repairing amps for 30 years has been trying to get me to switch to Elmers white glue. That is what Fender told him they use to use, and when he strips old amps to recover he uses hot water to loosen the glue. I never want on recover a box with old contact cement on it. Down side is that you do one piece at a time and have to clamp it and let it dry. It takes a couple days to cover an amp.

BL

[Platefire]

Well my experments with Wellwood Contact Cement is that if you put enough glue to stick the tweed you get penetration and spotting. If you lighten up on your application of it, you get poor adhesion.

Tonight I tried Elmer's Carpenter's Wood Glue and from everything I've seen so far looks perfect! I just used in on a small peice. I smeared it lightly on the wood and back of the tweed with my fingers. I got no penetration through the material or spotting and it set up fast. It is well bonded to the wood as well as the Super 77 3M did. I'm impressed! I will experment with a larger piece to be sure but on inital testing this is the best yet. Platefire

[Blind Lemon]

Hey PF,
   On the places like corners that are hard to clamp us a heat gun to help make the Elmers tacky. Thanks for checking in, I been wondering how it was going for you.................

BL

[Platefire]

BL

I really don't know what clamps your talking about because I've never used  them before--could you provide more info on that. Would a hair dryer surfice for a heat gun?

I'm wondering if I really need any of that though. The glue test last night set up really fast. As fast or faster than contact cement. I was expecting a long period of having to press the material down or getting bubbles out but it was none of that. Within an hour it was set and well bonded. I've never known an Elmers to do that. It may be different with larger pieces of material. I going to do a large piece of scrap I have and do the two coats of clean shelac and the  50/50 aging. I'm really starting to consider just the two coats of clear and leave the aging off but I'm not sure yet. I might try leaving half the larger test patch aged and the other half clear for an A/B test on it. When I do it I will let you know how it came out and might do a picture. Plate

[Blind Lemon]

A hair dryer will work, you just want to drive some moister out of the glue to make it sticky.. On your test piece, hit it with the hair dryer and see how sticky it gets. The way my bud uses Elmers is to glue one inside edge and clamp a small batten over it to hold it down until the glue is dry, then put more glue over the rest of the area, pull the fabric tight and clamp the other edge down and wait for it to dry. Be careful if you do it this way. When you clamp the first edge down you will have squeeze out of the glue along the edge of the of the batten and underside of the fabric that will dry as a ridge and show. Clean it up before it drys............I hope this makes sense.

BL

[Platefire]

Well when you say batten I visulize an elastic hold down attached to nails in a piece of plywood strapped over the tweed material in drying??  :-\

[Blind Lemon]

"Well when you say batten I visulize an elastic hold down attached to nails in a piece of plywood strapped over the tweed material in drying??  Undecided"

No, what I mean is to clamp the fabric to the box with a piece of wood over the fabric to spread the load out. I'll mock something up tonight and take a picture.

BL

[Platefire]

BL

I think you misunderstood my intretation. My 5E3 is just a head not full combo. Picture a piece of plywood over the newley placed glued tweed material placed on one side or top or bottom at a time. On the back side of the plywood I have a nail in each end. Attached to the each nail in each end of plywood is an elastic/rubber hold down (with a loop in each end) wrapped around the other part of cab holding the plywood in place. Once the glue is set, disconnect the tie down from one of the nails and remove the plywood and then use it to do another side. Plate

[Blind Lemon]

PF
How's the cover job going? Got pics yet?

BL

[Platefire]

No.  :(  Been terribly busy with other stuff. I think things are starting to loosen up a bit. I did do that additional test last night with tweed/glue. I really like that Elmers Wood Glue. With test so far I think it's like the perfect glue for tweed. I took some pictures but haven't had time to post them. I'm not sure if I want to put any aging 50/50 solution on the tweed. I'm pretty happy with the appearance with the spray on clear shelac. Anyway I filled a few small cracks on the cab last night and as soon I do one last finish sanding/steel wooling, it will be ready for tweed. Next step is cut out the pieces out and I hope to glue some tweed to the cab this weekend if possible. The big event is to glue the two side pieces and get those corners cut properly.

Also this time I'm not going to cut the back plate panel or front panel out until I get the tweed on the cab so I can get exact measurements after tweed is on. I figure four layers of tweed should be about 1/8" total guessing!

[Blind Lemon]

1/8 to 3/16 is about right depending on your grill cloth thickness. Really you can be pretty undersized with the inserted panel and it still looks good. But, I always cover the box then cut the back panels or baffle board to size.

I'll use Elmers on my next tweed job. I may be getting 2 5F6As to do.

BL

[Platefire]

I did the sides this weekend while it was raining cats and dogs--high humidity. I was really feeling down about it Saturday because I got glue bleed through dark spots in spite of all my previous test. I also did some bungles on cutting the corners. The light at the end of the tunnel is that tweed is so forgiving compared to tolex. The sun was out all day Sunday and the dark spots  have lightened up a bit even though not totally disappeared and even the corners look a lot better after the glue has had more drying time in less humid conditions.

One thing the tweed in really stuck on solid with the wood glue. One negative comment I read on the net was that if it gets wet, the glue will break down??? hope not! Anyway I got the hardest part behind me. Just placing the pre cut top and bottom pieces on the cab, it looks like I can get all the intersecting lines to line up pretty easy. I plan to start on that tuesday night if the Lords willing and the creeks don't rise. I'll be glad to Git R dun and Randy is chomping at the bits wanting his amp. Plate

[Blind Lemon]

Be sure to take some pics for us...............

BL

[Platefire]

I will! This will be for the school of "How not to do Tweed" ;D

[Platefire]

Ug! Hate to show this but I said I would so here it is. It was the best I could do  but not good enough! Some miss alignment of lines and shadowing from glue bleed through. I'm glad this part is done even though I not happy with the outcome. Still got the front panel and backplate to go.

[Platefire]

Mow

[Dynaflow]

 I donno Plate, I think it looks pretty good to me, heck I'd call that ok for a first time, I'd gig that one out.

Regards,

Dyna

[Platefire]

Thannks Dyna, that make me feel better. One thing about darkening from glue bleedthrough---it looks naturally aged like someone spilled a few drinks on it!  ;D  I guess its good to laugh at your own failure.
History teaches us the the great successes has come from a string of failures in a lot of cases. I know if I did tweed more often I would come up with better methods. So if there is a next time for tweed for me, I think I'll spring for some more expensive glue especially designed for tolex and tweed.

I got a call about two weeks ago from the guy I'm building this amp for representing a guitar player in another pretty well know Gospel Group who is building his custom made guitars with his name on it and he wanted to offer an amp--and wondered if I will be interested in building 50 tweed combos over a period of time. It was very flattering at first and something I considered--but working off my Kitchen table without even a shop, working a full time job complete with overtime, helping build a church, plenty of family activites--I had to tell him I can only build one amp at a time and scheduled as I can get to it. It's taken me from December to now to complete this 5E3. So having said all this---there might be other opprotunities for tweed development in the future---but right now I'm really wanting to build an amp for my Grandson who is progressing by leaps and bounds on guitar. Plate   

[Blind Lemon]

Yo Platefire that looks great, if you hadn't have done it yourself you'd see how good it looks. Well done and thanks for all the pics and keeping us informed. A couple of guys are coming in from out of town next week to talk and they were asking about Tweed Bassmans. This will help.

BL

[Platefire]

Thanks! I get so stressed out when I'm spreading the glue and attaching the pieces that when I go to bed I'm stiff as a board and all my joints poping. Shouldn't be that intense. The dark spots do get lighter after more extended drying so that helps. I called the wife from work today and told her to get a clean towel and set the cab in the sun outside thinking that would really cure it. She call back latter and said she started to but there were so many birds flying around she was afraid they would lite and poop on it, Har!  ;D That's what I call good instantanious command decision making  ;) ---talk about pre-aging! I'm off tomorrow so I intend to jump on the rear and front panel. Plate

[Platefire]

Finished today. I put some pictures up on the main amp treaking thread but thought I should put some here also for future reference. I really like working with tweed. If I can just get the glue bleed through issue solved. I think I like it without the ageing treatment. I like light tan look.
  Thanks Blind Limon for your support on this. I refered to your pictures and notes through the process. Even with the flaws in the cab I'm generally real happy with the outcome. Feel like I could be really good with tweed with a little more experiance and some good glue~ ;). Plate

[Platefire]

Close ups

[Dynaflow]

 Looks awesome!

Regards,


Dyna

[Platefire]

Thanks Dyna, that make me feel Awesome!

[Blind Lemon]

Looks great man, I like it. And thanks for keeping us informed on your glue trials.

How do you do your face plates?

BL

[Platefire]

Thanks, On the face plate first I designed what I wanted on a CAD program and took a full scale print(hard copy) to a trophy shop about 60 miles away. It just so happened that there was another guy in that town that built amps that got them(the trophy shop) to build face plates for him, so they already had some experiance. I didn't have many options on color and that was the only color they had available the would even come close to matching the tweed, so I had to go with it. The material is a clear plastic but the text/lettering is actually on the back of the panel--so there is no chance for the lettering to wear off because it embeded beneath a clear layer---cost $32.00 with tax. Plate

Attached is the pdf of the CAD drawing that I took to the Trophy shop. I'm a draftsman by trade, so this was easy thing to produce--a hand sketch with the right dimensions would do. Also I prefer the text style that I have on my drawing than the trophy shop had to offer. The "RM" looks like "RCM" on theirs because the "M" was too exaggerated but again that was the only option they had in that style lettering.