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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: word on HP O-scope 130C  (Read 9981 times)

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Offline rzenc

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word on HP O-scope 130C
« on: May 31, 2009, 07:02:47 pm »
Hi,


I came across this HP 130C O-Scope selling for US$ 300,00... Have you ever used it? Know something about this unit?? I want to buy a scope but don't know what would serve me...talking about needs and features...like peak to peak voltage and current readings....Actually I'm new to scopes and don't know much about them or how to use...I also found these 2 voltmeters, one from MEGURO and one from HP too...Have you ever used/know them?
I would buy it because it is tube based and you can see pics of the guts on the link below:

http://s272.photobucket.com/albums/jj171/rzenc/HP%20103C%20OSCILLOSCOPE/

Where is also the pics of the voltmeters too...

One more question... ;)...

How the scope would actually compare to this scope from B&K???

http://www.tequipment.net/BK2160A.html

Thanks in Advance
Best Regards

With Respect

Rzenc

Offline RicharD

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Re: word on HP O-scope 130C
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2009, 10:53:07 pm »
It looks too old to trust.  Never trust a scope over 40?  I must be a hippie.  HP back in the day did make awesome stuff and ti looks like that thang is still working.  None the less I'd look for something a little newer.  I think my Tek is from the 70's.  It's starting to show it's age.  For amplifier work, you really don't need anything special.  Even the slowest of the slow scopes will cover the audio band.  Dual trace is a big plus, damn nearly a gotta have.

Ifin you're gonna try to find one on fleaBay, look for a seller who has lots -n- lots of positive feedback and who has a history of selling test equipment.  I have a dead scope.  Boat anchor size Tek.  Free to anyone who wants to pay shipping.  Easily 50+ pounds.

Offline PRR

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Re: word on HP O-scope 130C
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2009, 12:54:14 am »
The H-P 130 is an excellent LOW-performance 'scope for guitar work BUT very large and heavy and now very old and hard to fix. If you have space, if it works perfectly, if you can get it very cheap, it may be fine.

The B&K 2160 is much too good for guitar work. It has too many knobs and settings, is a thousand times faster than you need, and a thousand dollars ? ? ?

I've used only the Velleman hand-held digital 'scope on a recent project. I am not in love with its all-buttons interface, but the size is sweet. It is slow and low-detail, but fine for what you need a 'scope for around guitar amps.

The Meguro appears to be a very old high-quality VTVM. It lacks resistance ranges, which were common on Eico and Heath VTVMs. Does it work? Can you find service info?

Offline rzenc

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Re: word on HP O-scope 130C
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2009, 10:21:47 am »
if it works perfectly, if you can get it very cheap, it may be fine.

Well...it's not working the way it should be, actually it will need maintanance...the vertical deflector works fine, but the horizontal isn't...as said, it's really old and will need new eletrolitics and probably tubes too...I found a guy, who is a retired electrotechinik from EMBRAER - in the same shop where I found the HP and he said he would fix it for free  ;D He actually worked with this monster on the EMBRAER labs back in the day....I was thinking of it as a piece of history first, but then I felt in love with the glowing bottles inside the chassis...I don't think it is that expensive but for $$$ 400,00 I can get a new one, and for some more I could buy other stuff too...don't know...now you got my thinking...should I spend this amount of money on something that I need and is not working the way it should and will eat more money to be the way it should be by now??
As I said, I need a scope to work, things are growing...more clients, more amps, more fun and also lots of more headache  :o I would like to "see" what I'm hearing, see how the mods I make affect the shape of the sound and this sort of things... if you can help me out I will be really glad  ;)
Between these scopes - links below - , which would be the best fit to audio work? Just to remind you, I work as a recording engineer and I may find some studio stuff to fool around and even perform maintanance on them...and I need help selecting a nice scope to my bench...

http://www.tequipment.net/BK1541D.html
http://www.tequipment.net/BK2120B.html
http://www.tequipment.net/BK2121.html
http://www.tequipment.net/BK2125A.html
http://www.tequipment.net/BK2160A.html
http://www.tequipment.net/BK2190B.html

I don't know what I should be looking on a scope when trying to figure out what will fit on my daily job as an amp/studio gear builder/repair.

very old and hard to fix

Do you think I could put it in working conditions or it will become a nightmare?

The Meguro appears to be a very old high-quality VTVM. It lacks resistance ranges, which were common on Eico and Heath VTVMs. Does it work? Can you find service info?

Don't know if it is working....I will be back in the store on friday morning to check it and the HP VTVM
I wrote to meguro today, asking for the service manual and whether they could send me a copy of it...let's see what happens...hope they answer me... ::)

Never trust a scope over 40?  I must be a hippie.   :D

Thanks in Advance
Best Regards

Rzenc

P.S.: A friend, owner of a recording studio called me asking if I could check his Manley Vari-Mu, because it went south...

Offline tubesornothing

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Re: word on HP O-scope 130C
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2009, 10:30:49 am »
$300!  Forget it.  You can get newer scopes, dual trace that have been tested, for much cheaper than that.  Especially with the recession on.

Offline mackie2

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Re: word on HP O-scope 130C
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2009, 12:55:55 pm »
Rzenc--
 
Mackie2 Here
--HP had some good O-scopes--100MHZ Models, But they were not as reliable as the  Tektronix. If you are patient and
watch the Market:Ebay, Surplus  Supply Houses, and Pawn Shops--you may find a real Bargain.   I  have a  Tektronix 453 I paid  $50,
with 2  Probes,  five years ago;  also a Phillips PM 3232 I got for $20 at  a garage  sale.  I  have  a 100MHZ  Hitachi sitting on the shelf in a back room.  It is a back up!   You will learn by experience!  I don't know how many contraptions I  have purchased at too high a price only to realize later, I should have not  bought.  If you just want to learn about the old equipment, buy it dirt CHEAP!  This forum will have someone that has used or torn apart one of them. 

Mackie2
1/2 a Valve is better than no Valve at all.

Offline RicharD

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Re: word on HP O-scope 130C
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2009, 01:34:48 pm »
I saw a 4 trace Tek for $250.00 today at my local surplus shop.

Offline rzenc

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Re: word on HP O-scope 130C
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2009, 09:29:01 am »
The Meguro appears to be a very old high-quality VTVM. It lacks resistance ranges, which were common on Eico and Heath VTVMs. Does it work? Can you find service info?

This is the answer they sent me yesterday:

We have received your inquiry.

We are afraid to inform you that we do not have any technical materials
for the model
because we discontinued the model a long time ago.

We are sorry for the inconveniences.

Masaaki Tamaru


I will keep searching for a scopes....probably I will go to the store to check if the VTVM's work or not...the other day I did not have time avaiable to perform any kind of test...
I thinking of a 1,5VDC batterie test, 9VDC batterie test, wall voltage test and I will take a Xformer in order to see if it is really working alright on all ranges..sure I will take a dmm to compare results against...I will keep you informed how it turns out...

Thanks folks
Best Regards

Offline rzenc

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Re: word on HP O-scope 130C
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2009, 09:45:48 am »
What's up with accelerating voltages? I see them varying from 1,9KV to 32KV.... tone-lizard recomends scopes with accelerating voltages > 2KV in order to provide a bright and clear trace.. would it really matter for audio purposes? since it's maximum high freq which would apper on such equipment would be around 100KHz, except for GML which states that his gears are flat from 0.5Hz to 400KHz... :D

I'm trying hard to figure out what would fit my bill...since getting something a LITTLE better usually means paying a LOT more and not littel more..


Offline tubesornothing

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Re: word on HP O-scope 130C
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2009, 11:07:11 am »
Unless you want another project or a vintage meter forget the VTVM.  If you want analog, get a simpson meter.  Other than that a used fluke DMM is a great thing.  The only benefit to the VTVM is it high input impedance.  DMM are almost as high. VOM - you will have to check the specs.

Offline PRR

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Re: word on HP O-scope 130C
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2009, 08:47:05 pm »
> What's up with accelerating voltages?

Don't touch them.

> tone-lizard recomends scopes with accelerating voltages > 2KV in order to provide a bright and clear trace..

My favorite audio-only 'scope is 600V. Or maybe 300V. I remember fooling with it. Higher voltage did not give a noticeably better trace, but needed a LOT more deflection voltage.

The high voltages are for pulse work in over-lit corporate labs.

Offline rzenc

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Re: word on HP O-scope 130C
« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2009, 07:20:48 am »
what you guys think about this one??/

800VDC peak to peak rated as maximum input voltage...I think it may be alright for almost all tube work I will come across...

Thanks

Best Regards

Rzenc

Offline tubesornothing

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Re: word on HP O-scope 130C
« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2009, 09:50:48 am »
Don't go out of your way to get a scope that will handle super high voltage.  It will cost too much.  90% of your amp testing will be with signals under 30Volts. For anything with a large DC bias you can use a coupling cap to filter the DC.

The only place I have wanted to measure a large voltage signal was after the power tubes, before the PT.  In this case, I just have a HV clip on probe that I grabbed from a auto analyzer (clips to the spark plug) - works just great.  In three or so years of building amps and repairing them, I have only used it once or twice.

Offline rzenc

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Re: word on HP O-scope 130C
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2009, 11:56:22 am »
Don't go out of your way to get a scope that will handle super high voltage.  It will cost too much.  90% of your amp testing will be with signals under 30Volts. For anything with a large DC bias you can use a coupling cap to filter the DC.

You know, I would like to have some headroom in order to be able to study all possible points inside an amp, maybe it's needed to put the amp back into working conditions or to "better" understand how things change when you stroke a cord, how plate voltage swings up and down, it's distortions and assymetries, I would like to see power tubes plates and screens, ripple on bias supply...and actually, it will cost me US$ 838,00...I have a friend which will bring it to me, down here, it would cost as much as US$ 3.000,00  :o :o :o so, I think if I figure out that it's a waste later on, I can sell it for as much as I paid... ;)
the main target here is to have headroom while poking inside the amps, that's why I thought a tube based scope would fit the bill, but after seem this one above, heck  8) I believe it will greatly help me...
If you have any models to suggest, please, feel free, since I new to scopes I will really study them before sitting on one, by now the winner is the mentioned kenwood due to it's high voltage handling capabilities...

Thanks in Advance
Best Regards

Rzenc

Offline mackie2

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Re: word on HP O-scope 130C
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2009, 02:09:55 pm »
Reznc--

I must be missing what your use of headroom means with O-scopes.  I used old Tektronix scopes -- 317, 545 and other tube scopes way back and  never thought about headroom--explain please.

I just got rid of  one of the Tek 535's and canabilized a 545.  I like to re-use those old omite pots and wirewound  resistors  that bolt to the  chassis.  The  6DJ8's  and 12B4's  are good to experiment with.  Old tube scopes  are hard to maintain as some of the tubes have a relatively short life, causing instabilities in triggering and sweep--Moderate  HV is attractive to me in selecting a scope.

Mackie2
1/2 a Valve is better than no Valve at all.

Offline rzenc

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Re: word on HP O-scope 130C
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2009, 12:11:38 am »
Reznc--

I must be missing what your use of headroom means with O-scopes.  I used old Tektronix scopes -- 317, 545 and other tube scopes way back and  never thought about headroom--explain please.

Mackie2

Hi,

By headroom I mean having more ways to investigate, that is, if our H.T. is @ 500VDC, then we can't stick a scope with a peak to peak of 400VDC in there...can we? Please, corredt me if I'm wrong, because I will be really grateful  ;) I own an old ampeg SVT, probably from 1969 or 1970...Linden factory... and the monster has a plate supply of 695VDC...I would like to see the ripple on the supply, for the sake of accuracy, while studying power supply designs for S.E.'s....how the use of a choke will affect the ripple swing..experiment with types of distortion - saturation x cutoff - how they change waveform...well...I don't know to really express what I think...but I believe that a bit more flexibility would not hurt  :) just in case right  ;) Maybe I get crazy - more than I'm already - and build a 2KV 1000W 6 gain stages beast and I would like to see how it is being tuned....curiosity is the name of the game  :) ... however I really opened to ideas and someone said something about soldering a cap on the tip of the probe or use a H.T. probe...It must be valide, but I wouldn't feel confortable thinking about the how limited is my gear...well....I guess you got it...feel free to suggest your idea or how is your approach to join technology and art  :)

Thanks
With Respect

Best Regards

Rzenc

Offline tubesornothing

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Re: word on HP O-scope 130C
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2009, 11:17:04 am »
Get any old scope plus a high voltage probe.

Offline rzenc

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Re: word on HP O-scope 130C
« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2009, 02:09:07 pm »
Get any old scope plus a high voltage probe.

What exactly a high voltage probe does? Will it knock down voltages in order to suit the scope maximum voltage input?

Thanks in Advance
With Respect

Best Regards

Rzenc

Offline tubesornothing

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Re: word on HP O-scope 130C
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2009, 02:49:43 pm »
yep

Offline rzenc

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Re: word on HP O-scope 130C
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2009, 07:29:28 pm »
Cool!!!!  ;D

Offline PRR

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Re: word on HP O-scope 130C
« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2009, 02:03:53 am »
> 800VDC peak to peak rated as maximum input voltage...

You do NOT want high voltage inside your 'scope.

In general, it is a BAD IDEA to be poking power plates. Nearly all you need to know can be inferred from secondary (speaker) voltage and turns-ratio. On my last build, I never went near the plate, even though I was very curious about voltage and efficiency.

Yes, in the past I have probed power plates with my 'scope. And yes, I have a melted probe where 800V arced the capacitor inside the probe. And I am a little lucky it did not ZAP the input stage of the 'scope.

While there exist high-voltage probes with accurate response, you do NOT need to be this fancy around guitar amps. Plate impedances are just a few K, so you do not need high impedance. Guitar questions are mostly under 10KHz, you do not need MHz response.

Use a 1 Meg 2 Watt resistor and a 10K resistor from plate to ground. Be SURE the ground clip is secure before you poke high voltage with the 1Meg! Put the scope across the 10K to ground.

This is a 100:1 divider(*). Your plate may sit at 400V, wobble to 100V and 700V. After the divider, it is 4V, down to 1V and up to 7V. Perfectly safe for any general purpose 'scope.

(*) It is really 102:1 ratio. But in guitar amps, we don't need great accuracy. "About 400V" is good enough, we never need to prove 408.1V exactly. We are more concerned with the shape of the wave, and relative to the supply voltage. If the plate can pull-down 80% of supply voltage, the load impedance is not too low; if it only pulls-down half the supply voltage before going flat, the tube is unable to pull the load. Anyway, all your voltages will change 2% or more from home to bar A to tavern B, from noon to midnight, etc.

The 10K shunt resistor into a typical 'scope cable and input gives frequency response over 100KHz. Actually the stray capacitance across a 1Meg resistor may keep sorta-flat response much higher, but who here cares? We are not tuning a radar modulator. (Not when off-work.)

This is for power plates. Voltage amplifier (12AX7) plates will be loaded by the 1 Meg. The stage will work, but the measured voltage and overload point may be 10% off from the unloaded point. This is still usually good enough. You can also learn a lot by probing the next grid (near zero volts DC) instead of the 200V plates.

The 1Meg:10K divider was also handy back in days when cars had ignition points. The primary spark voltage exceeds 400V, and with a Mark IV ignition module, sometimes a lot more. The shape of this wave probes many parameters of cap, points, coil, wires, plugs, and chamber. The 25 cent divider allowed me to study the ignition waveform on a standard 'scope.

Still in all, I suggest you stay away from power plates. Any distortion at the plate is also shown at the load and in the cathode current (1 ohm cathode resistor). If you just want to compare overload levels at preamp, driver, and power stage, reading power stage secondary tells you when it overloads, you do not need to know if plate-swing is 300V or 330V.

Offline rzenc

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Re: word on HP O-scope 130C
« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2009, 07:20:35 pm »
HI,

Once again I must say thanks... I learn so much from this place that I believe I will need to live ten lives to give it back!  ;)

I never went near the plate, even though I was very curious about voltage and efficiency.

This is what is driving me towards a scope, curiosity...

Still in all, I suggest you stay away from power plates. Any distortion at the plate is also shown at the load and in the cathode current (1 ohm cathode resistor). If you just want to compare overload levels at preamp, driver, and power stage, reading power stage secondary tells you when it overloads, you do not need to know if plate-swing is 300V or 330V.

So, I could get all info that I may need by going with this set up?

Thanks in Advance

Best Regards

Rzenc


Offline PRR

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Re: word on HP O-scope 130C
« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2009, 09:34:44 pm »
> all info that I may need

It is instructive to look at individual stages. Do it at grids.

Offline rzenc

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Re: word on HP O-scope 130C
« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2009, 11:18:10 pm »
> all info that I may need

It is instructive to look at individual stages. Do it at grids.

Doing so would reveal how mods affect the shape of the "sine" wave and thus the overall signal? Should we assume that the priciple of calculus remain true? An infinitesimal change means a global change? Or changes are frequency dependant? Also...would the inserction of the probe load the stage grid? According to Kenwood data sheet, input impedance is 1MN ±2%, Approx. 23pF...

Thanks in Advance
Best Regards

Rzenc


Offline tubesornothing

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Re: word on HP O-scope 130C
« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2009, 12:16:25 am »
Yes, check each stage to see how various stages change the signal.  Just dont bother with the power tube plates (unless you have that HV probe). But as PRR says, put the scope on the speaker output.

As for the threorizing?  Time to buy the scope and hook it up - see for yourself!

Offline PRR

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Re: word on HP O-scope 130C
« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2009, 02:24:32 am »
A great 'scope: the -hp- 120.
Introduction article:
http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs/IssuePDFs/1958-02.pdf

The 120 is a streamlined 130:
http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs/IssuePDFs/1956-03.pdf
http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs/IssuePDFs/1957-08.pdf

NOTE: ~~2Megabyte PDF files, not optimized for web-view. I suggest you right-click, Save As.. to your machine, and read them off-line.

This is all the speed and gain you need for audio.

5+MHz 'scopes were needed for TV-video work; the huge production of these too-fast (for us) 'scopes has flooded the world. Nowadays a cheap analog 'scope is 30MHz and has so many features you can't find your audio.

I like the 120-130 series, but for $300 it better work perfectly and come with a manual.

Dual-trace is sometimes a nice addition.
http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs/IssuePDFs/1958-09.pdf
The falling cost of tubes/transistors has made this almost universal, but I very very rarely use my Ch.B. Many such questions can be asked just as well by doing an X/Y plot.

And in my browsing, I hit this Historical Moment:
« Last Edit: June 12, 2009, 02:58:53 am by PRR »

Offline rzenc

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Re: word on HP O-scope 130C
« Reply #26 on: August 18, 2009, 01:26:59 pm »
In my quest for a scope I came across this one:

http://www.tequipment.net/KenwoodCS-4125A.html

Spec sheet:

http://www.tequipment.net/pdf/Kenwood/CS-4100A_specs.pdf

AFAIK it could handle the job, not that expensive...what you think guys?? please, let me know... if thumbs up I will buy this model...

P.S.: I got the message from staying away from power tube plates,  :wink:

Thanks in advance

Best Regards

Rzenc

Offline tubesornothing

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Re: word on HP O-scope 130C
« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2009, 03:08:08 pm »
That looks like it will be more than good enough.  For less than that I hunted around and got a tek 2246A from ebay.  It was around $250.  4 channels, plus has built in voltmeter and cursors so you can measure frequency.  I am surprised the number of times I use these features. Very handy.  I made sure the seller had a good rating, that the scope was tested, calibrated, had no burns and the trace was sharp.


Offline rzenc

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Re: word on HP O-scope 130C
« Reply #28 on: August 19, 2009, 12:29:04 pm »
Thanks for the answer ToN, however my main problem is that I'm outside the US and thus many sellers refuse to send things overseas...also, due to heavy weight, it will generaly eat lots of money with shipping...I have a friend of mine who will bring me the babies..

Thanks man!
Best Regards

Rzenc

Offline tubesornothing

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Re: word on HP O-scope 130C
« Reply #29 on: August 19, 2009, 12:50:39 pm »
Ahh, gotcha.

 


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