what have you done to your SF champ and why , how do you like the results

[catnine]

 I am just trying to get a handle on what people here have done , it can include home brews .

 I realize these amps were practice amps not really designed to be cranked to 10 but they are now desired little amps with a entire host of mods.

 Do you try for clean or breakup and what did you do to get there?

[Dave]

I think the reason that people are starting to migrate toward Champs and similar amps is because they can be "cranked" up without blowing out the windows.
The sound of a "cranked" Champ is what people are striving for. Although I don't personally see why, I don't think they sound all that great.
Anyway.... Modding one IMHO would take away from that "sought after" sound.
I would think that the only acceptable mod to one would be to "Blackface" it.

I have an early Silverface Princeton Reverb. I have thought about Blackfacing 100 times, but have never done it because of the same thing.... I don't like the sound very much, so, why screw up the perfectly factory original amp to get a little better version of something I dont like in the first place.

To me, the best alternative is to build your own if you are looking for a certain sound and leave the old bugger alone.

I built an amp recently based on Doug's 18 watt Stout w/ Reverb. I made several changes to it to suit my taste, and I can't get enough of it. I think it is one of the coolest amps in the world.
With a "pentode/triode" switch, I can get it down to 9 or 10 watts and open it up wide without breaking anything.
Total investment in the amp.......... about 30 bucks.
But thats just me.

Dave

[catnine]

I think the reason that people are starting to migrate toward Champs and similar amps is because they can be "cranked" up without blowing out the windows.
The sound of a "cranked" Champ is what people are striving for. Although I don't personally see why, I don't think they sound all that great.
Anyway.... Modding one IMHO would take away from that "sought after" sound.
I would think that the only acceptable mod to one would be to "Blackface" it.

I have an early Silverface Princeton Reverb. I have thought about Blackfacing 100 times, but have never done it because of the same thing.... I don't like the sound very much, so, why screw up the perfectly factory original amp to get a little better version of something I dont like in the first place.

To me, the best alternative is to build your own if you are looking for a certain sound and leave the old bugger alone.

I built an amp recently based on Doug's 18 watt Stout w/ Reverb. I made several changes to it to suit my taste, and I can't get enough of it. I think it is one of the coolest amps in the world.
With a "pentode/triode" switch, I can get it down to 9 or 10 watts and open it up wide without breaking anything.
Total investment in the amp.......... about 30 bucks.
But thats just me.

Dave

 I agree , I would not personally mod a stock champ other than to change out caps and get the bias within reason .

 I had a 73 and only changed out the caps and had to rebias it and I did cahnge the speaker to a weber alnico sig 8 s because the stock speaker was flabby sounding and it sounded great . Even though my home brew is an exact copy other than a larger cab and 10 inch speaker it does not have quite the same sparkle to it and I cannot figure out why. I know each amp even built the next day will be  different because there are no two alike . Componants very .

[jjasilli]

http://www.el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=6088.0

Why not?

I realize these amps were practice amps not really designed to be cranked to 10 -- I agree that they start off life as dumbed-down student amps.  But they don't have to stay that way.

I went thru a few stages of mods.  Boosted preamp gain & it would overdive readily.  Then boosted preamp voltages, which got it pretty clean; but the RAW mod restores overdrive if you want it.  NFB was needed to tame that.  6L6 with reasonably hot bias through a 10 watt Hammond SE OT into a 10" speaker.  Larger SF value filter caps; don't forget a choke.  This amp sounds as good as its big brothers, only smaller.

[mackie2]

Catnine--
Mackie2 here--

I have worked with several of my Champs through the years.  The one I play  through  now, has a Mercury  Magnetics  OT, and  a 6L6 (Telfunken) with a 10" Alnico (Italy)  Jensen.  I  raised voltages and gain, a little throughout--also more Filtering. I'm still working on getting the highs down.
 
I really like the Champ, for song writing--My photo at the left has that Champ  setting on a 2 -12  Home Brew Altec 417 Cab, if I  need to get a little louder.    Maybe Hard to see!

Long Live the Champ.

Mackie2

[catnine]

Catnine--
Mackie2 here--

I have worked with several of my Champs through the years.  The one I play  through  now, has a Mercury  Magnetics  OT, and  a 6L6 (Telfunken) with a 10" Alnico (Italy)  Jensen.  I  raised voltages and gain, a little throughout--also more Filtering. I'm still working on getting the highs down.
 
I really like the Champ, for song writing--My photo at the left has that Champ  setting on a 2 -12  Home Brew Altec 417 Cab, if I  need to get a little louder.    Maybe Hard to see!

Long Live the Champ.

Mackie2

 I had an issue with highs so I used a JJ EC83 which is a dakrer sounding tube and it got rid of the ice pick highs but I am using a 6V6GTA . I found my highs came in when I changed the 1st filter cap from a 47 uf to a 30 uf .

 Mine is a home brew , my attempt to get back the sound on my 73 SF champ I had to sell .

 I have to say for some reason my tone stack on my home brew does not react quite as well as the 73 SF did and the treble makes the most difference on mine and this may be normal since the treb pot is tied to the bass pot . I am almost at the point of trying a tweed tone stack and just have a vol and tone , to bad the chassis has marked vol/treb /bass on it and the three holes. But I fear going to a tweed stack will make the amp OD sooner since it is less loss .

[LooseChange]

I've got a beautiful 1970's SF Champ.  I messed it up in the early years of gotta have more gain, and effects loops. Recently, I put it back to it's original glory using the best sounding parts I could find. I left the effects loop in (It follows the volume control and works really well).

I installed a line out back then too. The line out works really well when the amp is used as a preamp for an Acoustic Electric direct into the mixing board. Warms things up ever so nicely.

The amp, with it's toneful parts sounds great. I've been searching for a new speaker. The old one is fine but I've read that a new (good) speaker will do wonders.

[loogie]

I have an early Silverface Princeton Reverb. I have thought about Blackfacing 100 times...

That's interesting to hear.  I have a Siverface Twin that I hacked up.  Trying to make it sound better.  I was playing the other one I have and I thought to myself 'Man, that sounds really nice to my ears.  A little sterile, but damn nice' so I'm going to put the other one back.  Ya, leave 'em alone or build something that suits you.  That's the ticket.

Right now I have sitting on my desk a '69 Marshall Super Lead someone hacked the crap out of.  I'm going to put it back.  As soon as I can afford new tubes...

[bigdaddy]

We are very lucky these days. You no longer have to hack up your amp to make it do something because nobody builds something that does it. Not only does somebody build it but most people with limited knowledge like myself can build it too. My expertise is in the end game, getting sounds not the design engineering.

So if you take a basic proven design and do a few mods here and there you will come up with what you need. Unless you are looking for that magic unobtainium some try to find. For instance I feel the early to mid 70's silver face amps have a different sound then the blackface amps, some very good and some really bad. The good ones are just different and in a live setting they actually hold the sound together better some times. Maybe a little more sterile but once the band starts so much of that good stuff coming from your amp is gone. The bigger the venue the more it disappears and you could be playing through a POD and it won't matter all that much in a stadium for instance. My friend was the guitar and amp tech on the first KISS tour and they went from Marshall stacks, to mic'd modded BFSR then to musicmans mic'd behind the stage. The sound they heard was from the monitors and from my experiences that sound no matter what, is sterile and has a very very slight delay. I remember the first time I played through a big system and it took a while to get used to it. I prefer smaller venues and my amp about 10 feet away.

Leave your champ alone....buy a new chassis from David Allen or Mojo. Buy some transformers and build one. Then try as many mods and configuration as you want to. In fact make it into a head and get some different speaker cabs for it, 1-12, 2-10, 4-8, 2-8, 1-10. If you need mod ideas this is the place. Just ask for some ideas.

[mackie2]

Champ  Lovers All--

Mackie2 back one more time--

Big daddy is right--If the Champ  ain't broke  don't  fix it--But, usually the  ones I come by,  will be at the trails end, and  need to be
helped back to life, or maybe a candidate to experiment on--some new parts or an upgrade may be the order!  I found a Champ  cabinet but no  chassis--I learned  from a friend that a solid-state Harvard (80's), is the very same size as the Champ chassis; you just have to  order parts, layout , and start  building.  Mine wound up being  a Champ with 2 6L6's more like a vibrolux  champ.  The problem  was the heat,  in a small cab.  Also  a new baffle board with an offset  center,  so the speaker and OT  don't try to occupy the same space. I let a friend have the  amp at a reasonable price for parts and labor--I work  cheap since I've  retired.

Mackie2

[premiumplus]

The only thing I've done to my Champs is cut the snubber caps off, put in a 1K screen resistor, and a bigger cathode bias resistor in.  I think I've got a 680 ohm 5 watt in there.  Oh, and Jensen Mod 8" speakers.  They rule!

[catnine]

The only thing I've done to my Champs is cut the snubber caps off, put in a 1K screen resistor, and a bigger cathode bias resistor in.  I think I've got a 680 ohm 5 watt in there.  Oh, and Jensen Mod 8" speakers.  They rule!

 The snubber cap ? Is that the small cap they had on the 6V6?

 I have done the same you have with my hone brew AA763 champ. I ended up with a 689 ohm cathode resister but I used the stock value 470 ohm screen resister . Does the 1 k screen work better?

 I have read the mian issue with a higher value cathode resister is you push the 6V6 into clipping sooner but I can't say I hear clipping but then I don't run my amp wide open so that my be why.

 I have been battling in my head wheather to try the 300 VAC PT taps rather than the 330 VAC taps but then most champs I've come across are running a higher B+ than mine and with a stock champ PT you don;t have the option of lowering the B+ with extra taps.

 I called weber to ask why they started building this PT with two choisces of taps and he said the lower 300 was if you used the SS rect and the 330 was for a tube rect so that's what I used .

The 73 SF I had after a recap and bias sounded sweet at low levels and solid at high levels . I have the solid but sort of lack the sweet and it could be the 10 ceramic is use in mine compared to the weber alnico sig 8 s I had in the 73 , those to me were the best sounding speaker by far in a SF champ . I had a few weber ceramic sig 8 s speakers but they were harsh sounding even the vintage series 8 with the huge magnet sounded sterile . I thing the alnico is a better choice in a champ because they seem to bring out the smoother looser tone , I thought the stock alnico speaked sucked , it flabbed out on the bass even at low levels.

[mackie2]

Catnine--

Mackie2 Again--

You can  always  drop  a 5 watt dale  1k  wirewound  in series with the plate, using  the higher 330 PT.  You can  go back to 470 ohm cathode R, I use wire wound, because they don't change with age--then put a 5W  500  ohm wire wound pot in cathode in series with the  470 ohm. The bypass cathode cap goes to the center wiper which then to the cathode--the top of the pot is not connected.  This gives variable bias from 470 ohms "E" plus WW pot  "E2"--E+E2= bias. It works Fine. A larger Bypass Cap on the Power tube will generally  give a little more bass up to a point.

Mackie2

[catnine]

 I just put a JJ 6V6 s in the amp . the IPD wen up a little , the amp is better sounding for my tastes and it is even quieter than before . I am right near 13watts IPD now . It's difficult to measure because the line voltage is 117.8 VAC one minute and 119 VAC the next so at the high end line it is just at 13 watts.

 I have to play it a bit and see how it sounds because one day it sounds better than others and it may me my 60 year old ears and the room I use it in has a lot of affect on the sound.   

[jrmintz]

I have a SF champ that I put a new BF turret board in, Mercury transformers, and a Weber speaker. I also put in a NFB defeat switch and a NOS Bendix 6V6. It sounds great and works great. I have a hard time thinking of SF Fenders as valuable vintage amps - to me they were the crap replacements in the late sixties because I grew up on BF amps. I feel the same way about 70's Fender basses - they sucked then, they suck now. It's really hard to change that viewpoint because it's so ingrained. I'm old, what can I say?

[RicharD]

I have a silver face VibroChamp that was given to me in exchange for fixing a GFCI receptacle.  It was dead.  I replaced a fried rectifier socket & nothing else.... not even caps.  I was thinking about hacking on it so I decided to play it and think about what I wanted to change.  Nothing came to mind.  It's my only non home made amp.  It sounds just like a Fender, only quieter.  I'll probably never get rid of it.

[mackie2]

Butterylicious--

Mackie2 here--

Now listen, you are gonna make that  factory-made  Fender amp feel like a minority amp--get another non-homebrew to go  with it, so "IT"  won't feel lonely.

Spreading BREAD on the water!!!!!

Mackie2

[catnine]

I ha d two loder SF champs , one was form the late 70's anf the other earlies with a two prong plug , I wantes more so I traded the champs and one of the first pr Jr"s that came out the tweed model withe thee blue alnico 10 and a ss park for a tween blues deluxe . But once I realized the newer fender tweeds were printed circuit board amps I got an Music master bass amp and a 73 champ and stayed with these.  I do not and did not like the idea of tubes hanging on a printeed circuit board even though they sounded good . i really liked the Pro jr and got another later made in Usa black tolex model but I needed to part with it for money and I don;t miss them .

 I got a bug and change my mm bass amp into a 6G2 princeton /5E3 with allean amp tranny's and am not one bit sorry and my champ is a home brew with weber tanny;s and a allen amps tweed style chassis both with minimal mods . with the flip of a switch my 6G2 /5E3 and a 12 ax7 becomes a 6G2 but I prefer the 6G2 tone stack and 5E3 power stage sound and 12ay7 preamp , it sounds great even though the B+ is higher it still can be a 6L6 GZ34 4 ohm power house.
 I took my 73 champ and built a tall MM bass amp cab to allow me to place a set of 8 ohm 12's to 4 ohms and put that 73 champ chassis in there and Icalled it the champ tower . It was the same width as the champ and MM bass amp chassis since they use the same chassis size wise but twice the height and with the two 12's one on top of the other it sounded great but was heavy .  I could slide the changed MM bass amp chassis in there and run two 6L6's and really blow the windows out but sold the eminence tonker and weber silver bell for funds but they were both great amps in this cab . Now I just have my champ AA763 brew and the MM bass amp now a 6G2 /5E2 in an old 71 MM bass amp wooden cab with one weber sig 12 alnico sig s and 6V6jj's and it is all I need , not quite the solid loud bottom of the high power ceramic 12's but it gets the job done here at home and the tower cab sit's covered just in case I change my mind some day and find funds for some beefy 12's . I still can run a jensen C10R and the weber alnico sig 12 S for 4 ohms with 6L6's but haven't found the need too do so.

 

[mresistor]

Big Daddy said "Leave your champ alone....buy a new chassis from David Allen or Mojo. Buy some transformers and build one. Then try as many mods and configuration as you want to. In fact make it into a head and get some different speaker cabs for it, 1-12, 2-10, 4-8, 2-8, 1-10. If you need mod ideas this is the place. Just ask for some ideas."

And that's exactly what I have done. Made two Champ heads. I've built them with a little bigger iron to accomodate 6L6's but find the 6V6 to be just fine. I replaced the stupid RCA speaker output jack with a regular Switchcraft phone jack. I added a mini switch to turn the feedback off. Now what I want to do is bypass the tone controls using a volume pot mounted switch. Anyone done this before.

PS I realize this is a resurrected thread, it's interesting.

[alerich]

And that's exactly what I have done. Made two Champ heads. I've built them with a little bigger iron to accomodate 6L6's but find the 6V6 to be just fine. I replaced the stupid RCA speaker output jack with a regular Switchcraft phone jack. I added a mini switch to turn the feedback off. Now what I want to do is bypass the tone controls using a volume pot mounted switch. Anyone done this before.

I bought a 77 silver face Vibro Champ on eBay for cheap. Under the guise of disconnecting the trem to add more gain someone had essentially removed the trem components and rewired it. It played okay when I got it. I gutted the amp and rebuilt it from scratch. The only items remaining from the original are the chassis, PT, OT, rectifier socket and power switch. I added a 1k/5W screen resistor and I believe that is also my cathode resistor value. I saw no real reason to run a 6v6 at 12-14 watts dissipation when that measly OT can't deliver that to the speaker. I use a Sovtek 12ax7 LPS preamp tube and a JJ 6V6S with an NOS Philips 5Y3GT rectifier.

I added a switch to remove the NFB and a couple of extra switchable caps on a SPDT switch to slow down the trem. I have rear DPDT switch to disable the trem that also opens the path to the trem intensity pot. Increases gain a touch when the trem is not used.

A DPDT switch in the unused (by me) low input jack hole bypass the tone stack with a .022uf cap. This adds a LOT of gain to the circuit. I was amazed at the amount of gain shunted to ground in a Fender tone stack. It's a very raw sound that I admittedly only use rarely. A more usable mod would be the Raw controls that many folks do by installing a large pot in the ground path of the tone stack.

It's a great little clean amp. I've never been a fan of over driven Fender amps but they do seem to take pedals well.

[mresistor]

Cool can someone point me to the info on adding a raw control to the Champ tonestack?

[sluckey]

For the AA764 Champ, just replace the 15K resistor at the bottom of the tonestack with a 250K pot wired as a two terminal variable resistor. See this schematic...

http://www.schematicheaven.com/fenderamps/champ_aa764_schem.pdf

The 15K is on the back of the Bass pot in the layout.

[RicharD]

>Re: what have you done to your SF champ and why , how do you like the results


Gave it a cap job and sold it because I never played through it.  I like cash.

[andrew_k]

I've done almost no mods to my 78 vibrochamp, but much prefer the range of tones from my "brownface" vibrochamp build. 6G2 preamp and tone control in to modified blackface VC makeup gain stage/trem/power stage.
I don't have pics, but I have a (very boring) vid of it here -

-- audio demo starting at ~2:30

I'll probably never get rid of it.

sold it because I never played through it.

 

[RicharD]

It's not just a girl's right to change her mind.  That thang sat for a year w/o being touched.  I decided to put it on the floor at Switched On Austin.  They told me the guy who bought it was 1 happy camper.

[jjasilli]

I got my SF Champ on eBay with no speaker.  Being only SF (not BF) and not being cherry anyway, I figured it would be OK to mod it.  I also did it to learn about amps. (I started modding on an HRD which was a really poor place to start.)
 
First I did pre-packaged Torres mods to the Champ, which come pre-packaged with parts and instructions.  Much later I found this Forum and after about 3 months could start making sense of the postings. 

My SF Champ project & schematic are here:  http://www.el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=6088.0

[alerich]

I also dumped the stock speaker for a ceramic 4 ohm Weber that an a.g.a poster donated to me free of charge. A nice little upgrade although there isn't much you can do it that area. The cabinet/speaker situation has always been the weak spot for the Champ/VC. Plugging the amp into just about any closed back cabinet reveals a lot of tone you can't hear with the combo speaker.

[bigdaddy]

I have been working with these amps for a while now and have tried so many different things.

Each modification is usually to taste, there isn't too many things you can do to make the amp sound better, but the ones that work make a HUGE difference. You can get a little complex but in the end if you have the right parts a lot of mods isn't necessary. The biggest issue is the speaker. The cab size is small so trying to shoe horn a 10 in there doesn't help much. Using a slightly higher power 8 is much better and ditching the cab by putting it into to storage is a better choice. Either make a head or a combo with 2 8" speakers or 1 10" speaker. SE amps usually have a certain harshness on the highs that certain speakers bring out and it's a disastrous combination. One speaker comes to mind and that's the worst I ever heard with a champ, a Jensen reissue C10Q. One of the best is the Eminence Copperhead for Jensen type tones and the Celestion 10" greenback for more of that Brit sound. I have tried more speakers with these amps then I care to remember, everything from older Jensens 8"/10"/12" of all models to Celestion Golds, greens, blues, eminence 10s of every model, D208 JBLs......almost everything out there.

If someone were to hand me a stock 70's Champ and say make it sound right, like one of it's bigger brothers from the 1960's era BF family but with a little more umph. I would simply do the following which includes using BF specs: Take out the NFB, Put in a larger OT with a 4/8 ohm tap, add more filtering with another leg on your B+ rail and a BFDR choke(if you are staying with a 6V6 use the 1K 5 watt resistor and a 470 5 watt on the screen), You might also add a 10 watt 100 or more ohm resistor coming from the rec tube to cut down some voltage, add a 1.5K resistor on the 6V6 grid, use the 1.5K/25mfd combination on the preamp's second cathode, take out the second and useless input and replace it with a 25KL mid control(use both 68K resistors in parallel or a 33K and remove the 15K resistor on the bass pot), and wire up the heaters with twisted pairs and 2/100 ohm resistors to ground to help with noise. The extra gain will add noise. Replace ALL electrolytics, replace all drifted resistors especially the 100K in the tonestack, and even replace the ceramic disc 250pf with a silver mica. Since you are already there I would also try either the Jupiter caps or the SOZO blue caps, I bet they sound a bit better then the originals.

[jjasilli]

Take out the NFB  This didn't work for me and I had to re-install NFB.  I think it's reklatkional to the speaker(s) used with the particular amp. 

Also I should mention went to high preamp voltages: 230VDC.  That's OK with the RAW control.  But otherwise I like 180VDC better.

[jojokeo]

I am w/ Big Daddy & have done pretty much everything he's said in that second paragraph. Plus I think those 10CQ Italian Jensen's suck also! They're not efficient, are grainy, ice picky, not smooth when over driven & sound plain awful, IMHO. The green back 10 sounds good but doesn't have the balls or bass and not as efficient as the g10 vintage (for Celestions). I've worked on more Champs & V-Champs than I know. I don't normally change much stuff (unless asked) to good or original condition vintage amps unless they're in total disrepair or if I've found various components to piece back together, then I figure what the heck. When I do I'll usually change the tone stack to my own (sort of a cross between Fender & Marshall - better response curves) and like to wire up the caps directly to the pots to eliminate as much bare wire as possible (several feet actually comes out), isolate the input jack, sometimes a treble bleed/high pass on the vol pot, then use shielded wire and grid resistors to the sockets, etc. - also add grid stoppers, NFB is switchable, change grid leak resistors, add master volumes ocasionally (seems pointless), put in a switched speaker output jack, etc. etc. all the good conciencious & sound design practice things we all have learned to do here.

BTW, the new POS Fender 25R amps have cabs that fit the Champ chassis perfectly & comes w/ a (junk) 10" speaker. All you have to do is drill holes through the top for the chassis straps, put in a good speaker & your there w/ little trouble & minimal cash. I get those things cheap, repair the chassis & re-sell it sometimes for more than I p/u the broken amp for. I like to use chokes also (when appropriate) & I always rewire the heaters properly like big daddy said, and for good measure, elevate them to between 35 & 40 volts DC for quietest performance. All the voltage adjustments and biasing stuff is mainly to taste for each individual. Play & have fun but also realize that you could be chasing the ghost w/ those things when changing tubes could be easier & better. These little amps are great fun & very responsive to many different tubes.

A while back I found an old Champ chassis that was missing the output tranny, and built my twin EF86 to 6V6 amp w/it in a 25R cab & a 10" Emminence Red Fang - sweet holy combo amp! I'd never heard of a pentode Champ before & thought it to be fun to try. This was when the HoSo was in full brainstorming mode in it's disecting - developemental phase & pentodes were finally being talked about more at that time albiet w/the 5879... Anyway, the amp sounded really good but was a bit low in output because of the tone stack loading so I thought to add another EF86!? I did have to drill an extra socket hole in that chassis & used the low input jack for a gain pot (for 1st pentode), plus the orig vol (for 2nd pentode), treb, & bass controls. Lastly the volume pot is switched for push/pull 1Meg that has a tone stack by-pass for the true tweed tone effect, no tone control is necessary or even wanted when increasing all of the mids like that. I made a simple high pass filter network on the switch to lose a bit of bass to keep things from becoming muddy (necessary when by-passing a stack) for higher volumes. I like the JJ 6V6 but Electro Harmonix' are nice too. The Nitro Champ amp rocks w/ lots of 2nd order harmonics - pentode mojo & is surprisingly loud for a single 6V6.

[bigdaddy]

I have a Epiphone Galaxie 10 POS that I ripped apart. I use a Hammond PT and David Allen OT, twin EF86, JJ 6V6 and an Emi Ramrod. I used the mount for the original OT for a choke, bolted right in and I put the OT mounted next to the power tube hanging down. The amp is amazing...I actually have 4 of them I built using the same power section with different preamps. One is a dual 6SJ7 with a Copperhead.

The Celestion G10 version of their Vintage 30 is a good speaker and I have one in a lopoline box. But I feel it works better in a closed cab and the 10" greenback seems to work better in an open cab unlike it's 12" brother which IMO works better in a closed cab.

[jojokeo]

Hey there B-Daddy, were you the one I was talking to back then and you were working on that dual 6sj7 amp while I was building mine??? (I think there was an issue w/ someone's criticisms back then?)

I like the green back 10 but after I made a footswitch to instantly go back & forth between two speakers/cabs - you can really hear any & all differences between speakers. It's almost impossible w/out this. The G10 Vintage (v30's little brother) really was much louder (appx 100dB sensitivity) and w/ great character between the two. I still liked the sound of the green back but w/ it's appx 95dB efficiency rating it doesn't perform nearly as well and needs to be driven harder watt for watt. I guess it's very similar to when you go between a G12H 30w Heritage and the green back 25 watter. They're close but when directly compared, the Heritage wins out clearly. I highly suggest others try this when speaker sampling.

BTW, how much & what differences are there between the 6sj7 and the smaller EF86 or 5879 bottles???

[bigdaddy]

Nah it wasn't about criticism, I can take that it was about disrespect and that I will never tolerate that from anybody.

I must add that with a stock SF/BF champ one of the major tone killers is too high a voltage on the plates. Anything over about 210 and the sound is harsh and un-musical. Best is in the 180 range, you can go down to like 165 with a 220K plate resistor or as high as 200+ a bit but over that and it sounds BAD. I just had that with a build, I had an 8K dropping resistor and added another 10K and the amp did not change volume wise the sound became softer and so much less harsh. I was using a 6L6GC and an GZ-34 but I also have a few that run a 5Y3 also. The sound is different because of the voltages.

I did try those pentodes in different configurations. IMO the pentode is an SE amp like a Champ is best used as a driver tube. That's were you get the most control over the sound. Using it as the first tube and then a triode in the preamp is a waste, you're wasting all the gain and ability to change the overall tone/sound. Also running any tone stack directly into the power tube is also a waste, it should be between preamp stages. These SE amps work so much differently then a push-pull. Use half a triode or them connected in some type of cascode or a 6AV6/6AT6 first, or even another Pentode. So far the way to get the best Plexi type sound IMO is using an EF86 as a driver with the first stage half a 12AY7. I also noticed that the big bottle 6SL7 works best as a preamp tube with a James/Baxandal tone stack over the typical BF Fender between the triodes. Unlike some people I NEED a treble and bass control.

[jojokeo]

I hear ya, desrespect is hard to swallow and there's no place for that unintended or not.

I must admit that I haven't messed around w/ various voltages enough and usually work on biasing, cap sizing, voltage dividers, etc. when maybe I should take voltages more in consideration for certain issues. I have done this working more extensively w/ the EF86. I've been working off & on w/ that tube more than any other over the last couple years.

Tone stacks before a power tube can be done to sound fine but it's better that a grid leak resistor is in place to keep impedance proper and a grid stopper too. I've wired up an EF86 between triodes, before triodes, and after them w/ various tone controls - each has it's own characteristics being more bluesy or more high gain, and it boils down to "beauty in the hands of the player." I personally gotta atleast have a treb & bass too. I don't like a simple tone much. I have two amps w/ only gain/vol controls and NO tone circuitry at all. Tone stack type & placement is every bit as important as the order & type of gain stages utilized. But the simplicty of no tone controls w/ the gain and extra gain/tone you get is pretty cool.

[bigdaddy]

I'm kind of more into the speaker aspect and what pickups are in the guitar type thing. I look at the amp as just part of the whole rig. Some people just focus on one aspect and forget about the other, they miss so much. Speakers are huge when it comes to end game. I used to love 2 BF deluxe clones I made. One had an old Jensen C12N and the other a new Celestion gold. I would go from one to the other, same exact head yet they sound so different and I loved both.

But the inside of the amp is huge to me too. Yes the voltages going to each part of these little amps makes a big difference. You can tune an amp by changing the voltages and that also comes from changing the cathode bypass resistor on the preamp tubes. Change one thing and it also affects another. Same for how much filtering and were. Part of the fun is finding the sweet spot for each design. Too high a voltage on the preamp tubes ruins the sound but then again it could actually be part of the sound if you are looking to have a specific sound. It will make a clean machine for sure.....which would be better for a vibrochamp for instance.

Right now I have built and have 20+ versions of a Champ with all different tubes and transformers. Some are heads and some combos, but I have a lot of speaker cabs with everything from old Jensen C8Rs, 8" alnico heppners which sound unbelievable in closed back cabs and like crap in open back..LOL...and many different 10" eminence and celestion speakers. Most of my stuff was built by JD Newell and I am going to stack it all and take pictures for him to put on his web site....:-). I also have some Lopo line cabs and some combos that I completely rebuilt.

I also build my own guitars, from mostly Warmoth, USACG bodies and some Musikraft bodies. Tele, strat and Jazzmasters. Right now my count is 16 and growing. All different woods and pickups. I just spent $175 on a Lollar mini hum for a Strat Mahogany body/neck in the neck position, that's a lot of money for such a small part. I cringe when I see that price, it also has a custom shop Duncan Brobucker w/double slugs that cost like $160. So I try not to spare any expense from the tip of the guitar to the cables, amp parts and speakers. I have no family so any cash goes to my hobby and my medical expenses. I'm almost totally disabled due to spinal issues. I maybe have another year at most and I will have to stop because of my health, until then I will keep building.

[sluckey]

Nah it wasn't about criticism, I can take that it was about disrespect and that I will never tolerate that from anybody.

I hear ya, desrespect is hard to swallow and there's no place for that unintended or not.

This is the thread y'all are talking about. Back up to the beginning, read the whole thread, and decide for yourself.

http://www.el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=7298.msg66684#msg66684


There was no disrespect in anything that was said in that thread. bigdaddy simply over-reacted to a sidebar discussion that sprung up around his unconventional but perfectly OK use of 1/2 of a bridge rectifier in a conventional two diode full wave rectifier application. People were going out of their way trying to help him, but they ended up backpedaling trying to apologize and compensate for bigdaddy getting his feeling hurt. IMO, bigdaddy owes the forum an apology, not the other way around.

...Steve

[bigdaddy]

Well you have your opinion Steve, you are entitled to it and I have mine.

So that's your version and how you feel about it. I will not say you are right or wrong it's how you feel, you are entitled to feel anyway you want to.

Nobody has the right to tell anybody else they are wrong about the way they feel. If they feel that way there is a reason and as human beings they are entitled to feel as they do. Nobody has the right to say differently. Especially you......since you do not know me personally and never will, nor would I want to know you in anyway.

My feelings were not hurt at all, I am beyond that mentality. That type of thinking is for children and the immature as is your post which is an obviously childish attempt to make me react. Exactly the post I would expect from an insensitive and immature person. Nothing personal just an observation and the way I feel about you, judging from your post.

I will NEVER apologize for being me, being honest about my thoughts and how I feel about anything. If I am wrong then I readily admit it, in that situation I feel I am correct. So basically if you are expecting an apology for anything you are going to be waiting a long, long time.

There was no reason to even bring it up. I said what I said and did not get into anything specific. You are now in the process of escalating this..........typicial of the internet these days. There are always the people who feel it necessary to throw their weight around and try to bully people. Which is exactly what you are trying to do. I have done a lot of research over the years on certain behavioral types on web sites and you are atypical yet typical and a certain type judging by your post.

If you really want to settle this then we can anytime you want to, I will send you my address and you can come over anytime.

Otherwise shut up and leave it be.

[bigdaddy]

To explain a little about what I mean by typical and/or atypical types on the internet I will.

My younger friend who is similar to me personality wise and is now in Afghanistan and served in Iraq too with the US Army has had similar people issues on the internet. I too am a US Army veteran. We have discussed it at length to try and figure out the different reasons for certain behavior. The bottom line is that because you do not have to face the person it seems to empower certain people to act differently. They can hide behind their monitor and be whomever they feel they want to at that time. As for me, I am the same no matter were I am.....

This friend has opened a few web sites, he's also a web master and is very savvy with this whole internet thing. I am not......I don't want to be. But we both have come to the conclusion that people seem to fall into different types, followers and leaders. It happens everywhere and that's human nature. But on web sites it seems to always start the same and end the same. Many people participating until a few get control over the site. They then find people who will either do their bidding or will back them up no matter whether they are wrong or right. Then there are the others who sit by the side and do not get involved and do not make waves. After a certain amount of time this controlling group finds ways to weed out posters who they deem not their type. It happens everywhere on earth as long as there are people, it was called clicks when I was in high school. So because of this typical human behavior the amount of people are whittled down to a small few who pat each other on the back and tell each other how great they are and the others who sit by the side and just try to get information with the least amount of involvement. It happens to ALL websites. The most interesting one was the Webervst boards, wow how that changed over the years until there was nobody left who really knew anything more than just basics like myself. I did have conversations with Ted Weber about this phenomenon a while before he passed away. I have talked at length with others about this and we all seem to agree, that's why they stay away from forums, broads and such. I can name some pretty well known names but I won't and they all agree with this assessment.

When I came here I was hoping it was different but it's not really. There are/were some pretty good people here and I noticed some of them have been chased away....hmmmmm.....I wonder why?

[jojokeo]

I never intended to bring up an old subject to be rehashed and didn't realized there were still sensitivities with it. For me, it ("the incident") brought up a memory of someone that was working on a pentode amp that made me wonder how the design turned out, how it sounded and differed from current sm bottle pentodes and what things were learned out of it. I was merely associating BD w/ that amp build as it's the only thing in my memory to go by. I still have the unfinished schematic saved that was hand drawn using 2 6SJ7's & being dialed in at that time...I was & have been thinking of an all octal amp build one of these days.

[sluckey]

There's nothing to settle. Y'all brought it up, not me. It just pissed me off being reminded how you lashed out over nothing at all, so I decided to speak out and call it the way it really happened.

I will shut up though, out of respect for other forum members.

[bigdaddy]

So as long as you got the last word in everything is OK now. So as long as you can repeat your view on it it's now settled. So as long as you can repeat how you feel now it's time for you to shut up.

Well you went past that time to shut up. You had to get that last bit/word in didn't you, that's exactly what I am talking about, typical of a certain type of personality on the internet.

That alone shows what your character type is, or lack there of.............and it's not a good one.

Like I said if you want to settle this you can do it the right way, privately not publicly.

I was asked a question by Jojokeo and answered him in a brief way as not to bring things up again. Now you go back and look at the person who really started it up again. It was not me, it was you Steve. And to add the audacity of you to say I'm the one who should apologize. Again typical of certain types who twist things their way instead of seeing things from another person's point of view and even caring about that person's feelings. No it's all about you and how you feel. Dramatic and immature is what I would call your actions. A little bit of testosterone fueled chest pounding and alpha male bullspit, as I say typical of certain internet types. So easy to profile and amusing is your behavior.

[bigdaddy]

AND............

I will repeat and backtrack. I was asked a question and answered it as briefly as possible. You Sluckey are the one who has escalated this and as a moderator you should be dismissed. As a mod you are the last one who should be involved in that type of behavior.

I was a moderator on a sports forum so I am aware of a mods duties. One of them is to NOT do exactly what you did.

[mresistor]

Hey, I have an idea, lets all go have a beer and put this behind us.

[alerich]

If you really want to settle this then we can anytime you want to, I will send you my address and you can come over anytime.

Comments like this are totally and entirely uncalled for. I don't care what the nature of the disagreement is and I don't care who started it.  I clicked on this thread to keep up with that Champ discussion and now people are making threats over a damned bridge rectifier.  Pathetic.

[bigdaddy]

You missed the point, the point was that if he had a problem with me it should have been done privately, especially him being a moderator. He could have sent me a message and voiced his feelings privately and discreetly.

That wasn't a literal challenge unless he really does have an issue with me. It's also not in anyway a threat on my part. I was also proving my point about people hiding behind a monitor and using a keyboard as a weapon.

Some people just do not get it..........it's about respect. It's about treating people the way you want to be treated, it's that simple and for some reason it's lost on so many. Treat people on the computer the same way you would face to face, that's MY POINT. Yet it seems almost nobody on the internet does. Having the anonymity of a monitor and keyboard is a license to say and do whatever one wants to since there are no consequences. You would not do it to my face, I know that for sure, so don't do it on the internet.

My invitation was to prove my point that I would never say anything to anybody on the internet that I would not say to their face. But I guess the subtle essence of that meaning is lost to some and it is taken for it's ultimate literalness.

[alerich]

Yes, I did take the comment in a very literal sense. My apologies for misreading its intent.

[bigdaddy]

No apologies necessary...

I am a friend to all.....I try very hard to be......but......I guess it's how I grew up, it's a respect thing. I respect you and you respect me. If you didn't respect the people I was around you had a problem, a real problem. So it stayed with me for all my life, I try very hard to treat people the way I want to be treated. I try to see their view point and as the old saying goes walk in their shoes for a mile before I come to any decision on their actions. I think things out and I very rarely act emotional, so for someone to say I had my feelings hurt is absurd. It's about respect, no more, no less. Not to be confused with fear, people have a tendency to confuse fear with respect. But that's a whole other people issue.......