What happened to making music

[bigdaddy]

Fluxtone my a**, honestly......I hope nobody takes this the wrong way.

I wish musicians would spend more time practicing, learning to play better especially with other players and got out there and PLAYED. There is so much crap out on the net and so many people are caught up in it and it seems nobody plays anymore. What happened to making music. Tune up, plug in and play already. Especially drummers and bass players...don't get me started on drummers.

I think it was actually Regan or Jimmy Carter who ruined the music industry by eliminating tax write offs by the record industry. But the musicians themselves were the ones who let the door open for DJ's. What happened to having a bunch of guys getting together and making music. Nobody wants to learn anything, nobody wants to practice, nobody wants to get better as a player and musician/performer. Everybody want to sit at their PC and write about crap, or build or buy crap like those speakers.

Everybody buys all these guitars and amps and pedals and nobody spends the time to learn how to play them at a high level. You don't have to be a virtuoso player to make great music but you have to be able to play. You can't do that unless you go out and PLAY!!!!!!

Rant over sorry.

{EDIT: split from another thread -PRR}

[sluckey]

Everybody want to sit at their PC and write about crap, or build or buy crap like those speakers.

Not everyone can play well. And some even enjoy building this crap even more than playing. Imagine that!

I think the variable field coil may just be the gimmick that answers the one question I see repeatedly asked. That is, "How can I get that howling, screaming, crunchy, etc. sound at bedroom volume?" The down side may be that there are soooo many popular different sounding speakers out there that they can't possibly cover all of them.

[mackie2]

Sluckey--

I like the big LATHE!

Maybe an off-shoot idea of this field coil variable magnet--Get an efficient  alnico speaker--Drill  a center hole and drop in an electro-magnet with an external signal DRIVEN by a duplicate of the PP output + or - your control voltage opposing or adding or out of plase--
The sound of the original  speaker magnetically modulated--clean enhanced, slightly out of phase, boosting (additive), and blended. Could be oh-- so slight to down right nasty.  Oh Well, Just thinking out loud again!

PRR may just  jump in here!!!??

 Mackie2

[bluesbear]

Not to blow my own horn (my brother is the trumpet player, anyway), but the consensus seems to be that I'm a pretty good guitar player. Maybe it's because I actually attempt to make the song work (ie: rhythms) rather than always trying to outplay the other guy's leads. In fact, both of us in my band do that, in different ways. Few guitar players do. Even so, I think I enjoy building amps better than playing. There are about dozen good guitar players in 3 states that play my amps. One of my amps sits in a world class luthier's shop and gets played by everyone that buys an electric from him.... and some are big name guys from all over the world. Best, I think, is my son and the other player in his band using them. I also taught my son to play (bonus music making). My amps make more music than I ever will. How can you beat that feeling?
Dave

[bigdaddy]

Like I said I don't want to offend anybody and I am not putting amp builders down not at all. I am one myself.....sort of. I'm sorry if anybody took it wrong, obviously they did.

Not everybody wants to be a player.....or even make music, they are happy being part of the system, we need players, builders, repairmen and so on to make it all work. Not everybody, even good players are cut out to be professional world renown musicians, look at what happened to Roy Buchanan.

I'm not talking about the guys here, we seem to know what we are here and that's why I am here. Go on other forums and they are filled with Jimmy page wannabees, SRV wannabees and so on. They buy Hendrix stacks and pedals and spend so much money but never ever spend more than a few hours a week actually practicing, the fantasy is more fun. They do have the talent, so many do but the fantasy is what it's all about now NOT really making music and that's what I am talking about. Stop fantasizing and start playing!!!! Like if you want to be good with the ladies, get in the gym, get in shape and buy a sports car, stop complaining about you can't get any and stop fantasizing about women you will never get near, do something about it.

I'm talking about the guys that want to do it and don't. I talking about the guy who shows up to a jam with his guitar and blasts everybody away so that people leave and the musicians don't come back the next jam. When you ask him what he's doing he says oh I'm really a drummer. So I feel stick to what you do, do it the best you can and learn to play with others and make music. Everybody wants to be the star and not put the time and work into it. So many bad guitar players are better suited to bass for instance but want to be the frontman, ego, ego, ego.

[bluesbear]

"Everybody wants to be the star and not put the time and work into it."

My point is that there are too many "stars" already and nobody willing to work for the benefit of the song. Lead players are a dime a dozen. You're right... it's all ego and no musicianship.

"So many bad guitar players are better suited to bass"

I don't agree with that! Good bass players are as scarce as hen's teeth. A good guitar player isn't usually qualified to play bass; a bad one would be a disaster!

No offence was taken or meant; just an honest disagreement.
Dave

[Frankenamp]

And then there's people like me- I got music in my head, and had a father who was a concert violinist and peach farmer (thanks to the great depression) so I got some knowlege; but my fine-motor coordination isn't what it should be for a 'natural' musician... and I was a hyperkinetic kid who couldn't sit down to practice ten minutes at a time when it would have been most beneficial (added to the fact that the old man did classical, and I liked pop music... and we were both very intolerant of 'diversity')
I don't have the skills because it's my own stubborn fault- so I compensate by trying to make the things that make the music- and light the fire that will make me spend the hours that I spend buildin' and fixin' and internettin' making my fingers bleed (again). Yeah, it's a dream- but it's my dream.

I might fit that stereotype a bit, but I'm not offended because I'm one of those who playing at this point in my life needs headphones more than a tiny amp! And I have come to accept it -not like it, but accept the reality of what I can do versus what's in my head... 

[tubesornothing]

Hey BigDaddy,  I am curious about your post.  Why does it bug you so much that there are wanna bees out there who just spend the money on gear but dont wanna spend the time on playing music?   

[Bassmanster]

1. Guitar magazines and instruction books.
2. The internet and online tabs.

In the old days folks got lessons or played by ear and copied stuff off records.
It was the great weedout.

[jhadhar65]

>Good bass players are as scarce as hen's teeth.

You're not kidding about that.  That was part of my decision some years back to stop playing out with bands anymore.  I'll still fill in here and there if/when I'm asked, but no more steady band work for me.  You just can't find core specialists, especially bass players and sound engineers.

I think I'll also add here that there's a world of difference between a bass player and a bassist.  Any lunkhead that can drag a Jazz in the door can be a bass player, sure, but very few who hang one around their neck will have mastered the art of a bassist.  Same with sound engineering or keys or anything else.  In my opinion - and I've been playing this game for over 27 years - a mediocre player is better suited to can cause less damage to the song/performance by strumming chords on a six-string than picking up a bass.

>In the old days folks got lessons or played by ear and copied stuff off records.

Yep.  I took lessons for three months in the summer of '82.  I was a musician before that, but it was keys and violin - not guitar.  I started out as a bass player and picked up my brother's guitar about a year after I stopped taking bass lessons.  Everything I've learned from then to now was either of a copped record or by accident.  I still have a huge box of every LP you can think of - from original Steppenwolf to Elvis - and none of them are worth a crap to play now.  After you've moved the needle arm a hundred times to try to get the same little Randy Rhoads lick down, you gradually stop being so gentle with it.  Some of them pissed me off so bad I'd go through a few needles just to get the basics of the run down!  Thank God for spring-loaded turn tables.

8-tracks sucked for copping licks.  I smashed a Grand Funk Railroad to smithereens over it.

[EL34]

I Don't need a drunk bass player or a drummer who speed up and plays out of time or another guitar player that does not know how to play parts that fit the song and make the song work.

I don't play with musicians because
1) It's extremely hard to find other people that all like each other and get along
2) I usually don't want to play the same tunes and it becomes no fun playing crap you don't like. (freebird  )
3) The skill levels have to be matched or the weakest players and the most accomplished players are frustrated, pissed off or bored to tears.
4) Insert other reasons here and there are lots of them.

I love playing guitar, but I don't have to play with other people to have a ripping good time.
I can turn on backing tracks and play along for hours and be very happy.

I used to have fun many years ago getting together with  people and going to blue jams, but it got old after a while and I got it out of my system.

You make music in your mind, you don't need someone else to do that.
Some people thrive on being in a band, some don't

[Ritchie200]

BigDaddy -

I think you may be talking about two diferent things.

1.  THe anonymity of the net allows folks who may not have the talent or funds to pursue copying their hero a place to go and be anything and anyone they dream up.  Do you really think they bought that Hendrix stack?  Or that $600.00 Roger Mayer pedal?  I bet they saw a pic of it in a magazine, and that's about as close as they got.  These are the same sods who post on every u-toob about how the posting guitarist/band/instruction sucks and they or their fav band can do better with one hand behind their back.  When in reality you know they can not play a note.

2.  The Rock Band/Guitar Hero fanatics...  Again go to a u-toob post on Zep/Purple/Sabbath/(insert fav band) and 9 times out of 10 there will be some idiot post "If you think this is good see my Guitar Hero version at http.asdhkajhdfkd".  Give me a freakin' break.  These folks think there is some real musical ability attached to picking a fliper in time with the beat and pushing a couple of buttons on the "neck".  There is a radio station afternoon show here in town where the main guy plays drums, bass, and a little guitar.  He mentioned one day that, as a musician, he just does not get the Guitar Hero "thing".  Well he got a bunch of calls from so-called Guitar Hero "Musicians" trying to tell him how wrong he was!  He goes, "Ok, what is a chord?  What is a note?  What is tempo?  Not one caller was even close.  These people are also frequent posters on fan sites - and they do not have a clue.

FInally, on a personal note: I always tell folks that whenever I think I'm getting really good on the guitar, I go to my local music store to witness some 12 yr old kid blow me away....  I think there are a lot of fantastic players out there woodshedding every day.  I also think there are people looking for a certain sound and given finances, will buy any new thing coming down the pipe.  THere are professional practicing musicians, and others, like me, realized family and other responsibilities will prevent them from anything other than home recording.  There was a good Bud(?) commercial a few years ago that said something like, "...every real man has tried to learn how to play the guitar for his girlfriend at least once in their lifetime!"  If guitar and amp companies just sold to practicing musicians, they would be broke.  It's always been that way.  THere are lots of folks with guitars in closets and admit they got bored/frustrated and never learned how to play it.

Bottom line, ignore the posers.  In time they are easy to spot.

"My point is that there are too many "stars" already and nobody willing to work for the benefit of the song. Lead players are a dime a dozen. You're right... it's all ego and no musicianship."
Yeah, big talk Bluesbear.  Care to back that up?  I'll shread you into so many pieces, they will not be able to identify your body!  Let's go, bring it on!  Ego?  What ego!   

Jim "star!" 

[Dynaflow]

 I'd agree about the stars, and lead players. They'll throw a solo where it doesn't belong, play a simple lead background part to loud over a vocalist and have no concept of holes in music at all. As a rhythm player it drives me nuts. Sometimes the best thing you can play is nothing. IMHO music has to have some holes in it to beath and keep it lively, fill in all the gaps and you have this busy thing happening which is not very musical. The 12 yr olds are great, and learn they're lead runs fast as anyone would want to be, but give them some passing chords or something and they fold up they're hands because its not important to them and they're not sure what to do. Many of them wouldn't know a 9th or a 6th chord to save they're life. Yeah I grew up a ear player, learned my chords, played some lead later, lead is ok, passable but I can play some rhythm and its my stronger suit and something I do well. It comes pretty natural and I'm often thinking in terms of cut time when playing instead of strumming like a mad man trying to get they're freak on with the michael row your boat ashore right hand strum.
 To me the most important part is knowing what a song needs, and playing enough to support it without trying to turn every phrase into shred central. But hey I'm a older blues guy so its what I do.

Regards,

Dyna

[mackie2]

All through my lifetime, I have been impressed  by a lot of musicians.  Not just guitar, but  organ, piano, horns, bass and thumb pianos. Down in Mexico they get my attention--crude instruments--but the talent makes the instrument come alive.  In Jamacia
the rumba box is their bass or drum--giving the beat--Steel drums and the list goes on!  I am not much of a player, but I play enough guitar to write songs--I listen to jazz and blues, but write country and  gospel.  My inspiration comes from the hard times growing  up in an orphanage in North carolina--We  had a two  tube  radio--then Blues came to  us in the piedmont via Randy's Record Mart, WLAC, Nashville Tennessee.

It boils down  to what you are in tune with in your  life style  and enviroment. I even built me a thumb piano kit--Earth wind and Fire--used one on a hit.

There is a style, sound or connection, the individual soul taps  into. That's what matters when the final note is  sounded.

I love music,  if it were taken away from us, it would be a SAD, SAD  DAY!!!!

Mackie2

[Platefire]

Well everybody else is had theirs, so here is mine! I'm from the Gospel Music side and I'm flustered that nobody is using bands anymore. Everybody is traveling with their studio recorded sound tracks to back their vocals up. I understand the economic times and understand it's hard for the people making a living at it to pay full time band but even in the local area where people are playing in their own neighborhood are doing the same thing. Yeah in churches they have musicians playing at regular services but the groups out traveling are using sound tracks. I know musicians are not going to play perfect evey time like a sound track but to me live music brings so much more life than a sound track and a lot more fun to look at. I miss the bands and live music that seems to be mostly a thing of the past! Platefire

[madison]

I can relate a lot with El34 and not having a band and enjoying yourself.

I can relate a lot with bassmanster too with getting rid of the riff raff.

I like to get out on occasion and do a gig just to keep sharp.
So right now I am really relating with Dyna.
I am preparing for a gig with a 4 piece.
I have about had it up to here.
I just want to scream at the other guitar player who is attempting to be MR LEAD, "being a good lead player isn't about when to play or competing with the lead vocals.Most of the time it is more about when to STFU and accentuate the rest of us!"
Makes me really miss the days of having my own trio.

Yes, I do miss real musicians.
I have a sort of cousin in London who is a DJ.,with a huge attitude to boot.
I like to call him Mr. Button Pusher to my wife.
I mean do these guys really "play" anything?
(yes, there is a place for it.I am a hypocrite I suppose because I dabble a little in that too but my main tool is a guitar)

Rant mode off.

[Dynaflow]

  Keep the faith Madison, I put up with that dude for 5 years and fortunately they fired me (health issues, missing rehearsal, although I think its silly to rehearse 8 times a month to play 2 times, but apparently they needed it I guess) as I was about ready to throttle the guy. He'd play the lead in Black Velvet and 80 percent of the time would just screw it up and as I say he'd insist on laying on this big sustaining power chord while the singer was trying to do her thing. I miss playing out, but I'd never ever play with the cat again. If I were a tad better at remembering lyrics I'd sure think about a trio thats for sure. Oh well for now I'm happy just plugging in at home and playing the guitar.

Regards,

Dyna

[tubenit]

I'd agree about the stars, and lead players. They'll throw a solo where it doesn't belong, play a simple lead background part to loud over a vocalist and have no concept of holes in music at all.

To me the most important part is knowing what a song needs, and playing enough to support it without trying to turn every phrase into shred central. But hey I'm a older blues guy so its what I

Well said, Dynaflow!!!

I sat in with the band this morning & the vocalists we have are excellent! I really work at playing sparsely enough to be sure I don't ever walk over their vocals. Gotten to where I use more of finger picking/strumming hybrid thing with the music which I think leaves it airey enough for the vocals to be prominent and strong.  If I do background "fills" they are filling in where there isn't vocals (or something else going on). And that's why they're called fills, IMO.

I like playing alone, but it's probably more fun for me to play with another guitarist or band. Last 6 months or so, I've played a blend of rock, R&B gospel and sort of folksy rock/country.  And I sat in with some older blues grass guys (mostly 60-80 yr olds) who never used more than 3-4 chords in a song and had banjos, fiddles, bass and guitars.

I loved ALL of it!  There are kaba-jillions of better players than me but I have as much fun with it as the guys who really are talented.

Plus ...... I'm reserved and quiet enough as an individual that I don't like being featured. I prefer to compliment the (greater) talent of others.

My two cents, Tubenit

[zendragon63]

Maybe it is as simple as: you is only what you is. Just a guess--most of us started out empty-headed, empty-hearted and ignorant. Probably had our own reasons or circumstances for picking up a guitar but at some point were enlightened as well as probably relieved that we were not going to be the next Jimmy Page or SRV. Dreams clashing with reality and those destin for greatness moved on. And IMHO that some point is most likely where our relationship with the music really gets started. Some get it and some...never will and serve to remind us "don't be that guy".

Since 1972, I've played in at least a dozen bands--each with their own set of rewards and punishments. And apparently you guys know what is meant by 'punishment'. However the interaction of live musicianship and real time music-being-made has no equal. Period. Whether at a smokey bar at 1:45 AM or during the liturgy at 8:00 AM Mass. Arrogance and incompetance notwithstanding, I just haven't crossed the threshold of "I am getting too old for this crap". Yet.   Regards

dennis

[billcreller]

Way back in the late 40s, and early 50s, I played quite a bit, and good back-up guys were hard to find, even back then.  Some of it was country music, and most guys who played that stuff knew about a half dozen chords, so if I wanted to play some pop stuff of the day, or standards, it was a disaster.  They had good expensive equipment, and no talent.

[Shrapnel]

here's something that hasn't been mentioned yet.

Media Cartels aren't interested in music... they're interested in $$$$: the band's $$$, your $$$, any $$$ they can get out of any form of music. Thus, if "Twinkie Toed Tommie" seems to be selling 1 billion records (and another 100 billion "stolen" to piracy,) any band that sounds like "Twinkie Toed Tommie" will be booked until there's no money to be made (and still hold the music for ransom until the earth is no more) at the expense of any new sound

It's one reason they hate P2P, and any other FREE file sharing scheme. Yes, piracy does exist on them, but if you really look at the facts, well... you'll see that they love to play the numbers game and embellish the damages, especially for the uneducated (in Tech and music industry practices) congressional types while offering to help their re-election campaign funds. The independant musician should pay attention to this, as they may need to pay the cartel to even offer a "free" track.


And, yes, there is still the part of little Johnny wanting to sound like his most recent guitar god... but never learning anything else that will help, so he sounds like he needs an isolation booth with the mics turned off.

[P Batty]

Interesting thread.  There are still good acts making good music, but nothing quite like the explosion of popular music in the 50's and 60's.  There was a lot of cross-pollination of genres  and intense activity by independent producers (Sun, Motown, Stax, Chess, etc.) then which overwhelmed the more sophisticated but somewhat moribund "commercial" styles.  Commercial radio (at the time the prime mover of pop music) was much more open to new acts, but by the early seventies had been reduced to rigid  programming.   Punk music tried to counter this, but offered little of musical substance, although plenty of attitude.   

So. What models or inspiration does a  young person starting in music have today?   The music industry is run by lawyers.  Music producers have marketing rather than music as their first priority.  Television and other visual media have distorted what being a real musician is.  There are new industries competing for the attention of  young people (video gaming is a bigger business than the motion picture industry) and the element of risk-taking which was a big part of so many pioneering musicians and songwriters lives has been effectively squelched- "Just say no!" was the mantra for most of these young people as they were growing up.  The weekly sock-hop with a live band, bar bands working out their act by playing 5 nights a week,  these training grounds hardly exist anymore.  What would the Beatles have accomplished without those intense gigs in Hamburg?  It is not surprising in light of all of this that the new musical "artist" wants to be an instant "star" by using  formulas and image, and not getting a real grounding in what it takes to be a human being, much less a musician. The best part of the internet revolution is that it allows news acts a showcase. the worst part is that it is a vicarious (virtual) experience. Everyone on this forum knows that feeling of being in a room with real musicians playing live music through  electric guitars and, of course, glorious tube amplifiers. 

[bigdaddy]

The reason I don't like wannabees is because they usually have more ego than talent and having worked in a music store I had to smile and make believe with them to sell them stuff. They talk smack and act like the real deal and they cannot play. My ex amp tech told me a story about this guy with a Marshall head that was working to get a certain EVH type sound. He spent hours and hours on the phone with him talking about every aspect. He did not charge him for the phone time and did it to help this guy get HIS sound. When he showed up to get his amp the guy could hardly play a barre chord.

As for guitar players being bass players. There are 2 types of bass players, one who understands the bass and one who doesn't, he refuses to do what makes the music sound best and only cares about getting his notes in, like a ball hog on a basketball court. The job of a bass player is well defined unless you dictate that the music is flexible enough for the bass player to experiment and go off the reservation a bit. Other wise there is a place for every note and grace note, same goes for EVERYBODY in the band, there is no I in band. Many guitar players I have heard have enough musical talent to be a good solid bass player. They even understand the rhythm and music connection enough to play. But their guitar playing is just not good enough. They do not have the dexterity to play guitar but would be able to play bass at a higher level than as a guitar player. I know I play both.

I started off more as a bass player when I was 12 years old, It helped with learning the connection between the guitar and the rest of the music, I learned my place also.

[mackie2]

Bigdaddy--

A third type of bass player--Lap Bass Player--I built one from an old bass--Pulled the frets and Filled neck--Play it with a slide Tuned open. Kind of different Huh!  You  can get all kinds of  Blues sounds from it.  I only play it when nobody  else is listening!

Mackie2

[RicharD]

http://www.candied.net/motherfalconmusic.com/

I went to see these kids (ages 18 - 22ish) play last night.  One dozen very talented youngsters.  By the end of their set, I was holding on for dear life, every hair on my body standing on end.  200ish people (ages 8 - 80) packed into a small recital hall.  I was not expecting to be blown away but I totally was green with envy.  Give em a listen.  God bless our youth that don't play 1 button synths.