Reversible Transducer Installation Under Sound Board?

[Justa]

Hi Folks,

I have a Martin dreadnaught with a solid Sitka spruce top that I would like to attach (3) under saddle transducers and have it be reversible should I need to remove it in the future.  I have used double sided tape but it does not last and lowers the performance of the transducers.  The transducers are ½” round and the side that attaches to the soundboard is copper. 

The manufacturer recommends gel superglue for installation and states that the transducers are removable with a razor blade but you may damage a transducer.  Losing a transducer doesn’t bother me but the thought of super glue on the inside of the sound board and scrapping around with a razor sounds potentially disastrous.  I do not want to butcher a Martin.   

Is there removable glue or other safer methods to attach transducers underside of the soundboard?

Thanks in advance!   

Just in case a link to the K&K pickup system.
http://www.kksound.com/trinitymini.html

[G._Hoffman]

Take it to someone who has installed them before, and get it done with the superglue.  They come out fine, and I promise you the superglue won't change the sound of anything, and won't hurt anything.  Hell, there is almost certainly superglue in there somewhere already.  Also, they don't go on the spruce - they go on the bridge plate which is either maple or rosewood, which can easily handle whatever needs doing.


Gabriel

[Justa]

Thanks Gabe! 

Yeah I guess I did forget about the bridge plate being there.  Doh!  I will take a deep breath and go with the cyanoacrylate.  I don't really know if the K&K sounds system is worth a darn and I was worried that I might be replacing it down the road.  Scrapping glue off a bridge plate sounds immensely safer than scrapping on a delicate sound board.

Since I am short funds and have good mechanical skills I will probably do this myself.  I will make a fixture that will align on the peg holes and position the transducers precisely.

Are there any particular super glues with less bonding strength?  I would think less bonding strength would be good in this application.

[G._Hoffman]

Are there any particular super glues with less bonding strength?  I would think less bonding strength would be good in this application.

No, on both counts.


The K&K sounds pretty good (I'm assuming you are using the mini Pure Western, here).  You will need a preamp of some sort, and it doesn't have much gain before feedback, but it gives a fairly complex and appealing sound.  If you need to play on stage with a band, though, it is going to have a hard time keeping up.


Gabriel

[Justa]

Thanks Gabe,

Nice to hear the K&K system is a decent system.  Mine has three transducers, a mic and a preamp.  I am not really needing a lot of gain but am just looking for something that sounds more acoustic than my Ovation.  Hopefully the super glue will get me closer.

[G._Hoffman]

I am not really needing a lot of gain but am just looking for something that sounds more acoustic than my Ovation.

Well, just about anything will get you that...


Gabriel

[Justa]

Superglued the transducers to the bridge plate and checked out the sound though an old Ampeg tube amp.  You certainly need to use the tone controls in the K&K preamp, there are 2 for the mic and 3 for the transducers.  More would definitely be better.  Sure would be nice to have a notch filter also.

No matter what I did with the tone controls on the preamp or the amp it never seemed to sound correct.  There are lots of sound artifacts coming out of the rig.  It seems like hard strumming chords has too much amplitude for either the transducers, mic or preamp.  I can get bass distortion from the lower strings and the treble seems to break up also when I play loud.  Maybe I am missing something here but this is frustrating.  The Ovation may not sound as acoustic as this but it certainly does not have the artifacts or distortion.

Guess I will not be playing that Martin through an amplifier very often.

Geesh!

[G._Hoffman]

Superglued the transducers to the bridge plate and checked out the sound though an old Ampeg tube amp.  You certainly need to use the tone controls in the K&K preamp, there are 2 for the mic and 3 for the transducers.  More would definitely be better.  Sure would be nice to have a notch filter also.

No matter what I did with the tone controls on the preamp or the amp it never seemed to sound correct.  There are lots of sound artifacts coming out of the rig.  It seems like hard strumming chords has too much amplitude for either the transducers, mic or preamp.  I can get bass distortion from the lower strings and the treble seems to break up also when I play loud.  Maybe I am missing something here but this is frustrating.  The Ovation may not sound as acoustic as this but it certainly does not have the artifacts or distortion.

Guess I will not be playing that Martin through an amplifier very often.

Geesh!

I categorically dislike any microphone inside a guitar - they never sound good to my ear.  K&K's preamps are not usually considered all that good either.  If I were you, I'd try soldering the transducers directly to an end pin jack, and see if you like it any better passive.  That is by far the most common way to use the K&K stuff, and while I think you do need an external preamp with it, I would much rather use a L.R. Baggs Para D.I. than the K&K preamp.  I didn't want to say anything, since you had already spent your money, but if you are unhappy with the results, that is what I would try. 

And remember, it will never sound like YOUR guitar - the best you can hope for is to sound like an acoustic guitar.  Hopefully a good one.  Also, consider the context in which you will be playing the guitar - it makes a big difference.


Gabriel

[Justa]

Thanks Gabe,

I think you are right about using mics inside the body.  Besides the distortion problem there is a booming at certain frequencies that I suspect are either a resonant or harmonic frequency of the guitar body that are brought to life by the mic.

To adjust the tone controls on the external preamp you have to remove a screw, cover and then adjust trim pots.  Makes me really appreciate the way an Ovation is laid out, frequency bands can be adjusted in milliseconds.

Since the transducers are wired directly to a stereo jack I will test it passively and see what happens without using the mic.

 

Live and Learn  :sad5:

[Justa]

Well I finally had a chance to check out this rig again.  I had to let my left index finger heal for a few days after I sliced it up with a power planer.  Doh!!

So I did try it with no preamp with just the three transducers.  What a world of difference, no artifacts or distortion whatsoever this time.  Instead of having to turn all the tone controls on the amp to zero as I did when using the preamp I was able to use the tone controls normally with good effect.  It is now significantly more feedback resistant and the sound is actually acceptable.  Actually I have had others tell me that is sounds dang good but I will leave it at acceptable.  Now I wonder what might be possible sound wise with the Baggs preamp.   

I will be savin my coinage!

[G._Hoffman]

Well I finally had a chance to check out this rig again.  I had to let my left index finger heal for a few days after I sliced it up with a power planer.  Doh!!

So I did try it with no preamp with just the three transducers.  What a world of difference, no artifacts or distortion whatsoever this time.  Instead of having to turn all the tone controls on the amp to zero as I did when using the preamp I was able to use the tone controls normally with good effect.  It is now significantly more feedback resistant and the sound is actually acceptable.  Actually I have had others tell me that is sounds dang good but I will leave it at acceptable.  Now I wonder what might be possible sound wise with the Baggs preamp.   

I will be savin my coinage!

The K&K preamps are generally thought of as being too hot for most situations, and not particularly well designed.  They make great transducers, but there are other companies who make much better electronics packages.  The ones most people seem to like are the Baggs stuff (the Para DI, and I've heard a lot of good things about the Venue too, though I haven't tried it - it's supposed to be a lot like the Para DI, with some added features), and the Pendulum stuff. 


Gabriel