Welcome To the Hoffman Amplifiers Forum

September 06, 2025, 12:24:56 pm
guest image
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
-User Name
-Password



Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Analog Voltmeter?  (Read 14037 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Fresh_Start

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 2856
  • noob de Lux
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Analog Voltmeter?
« on: October 04, 2009, 05:39:08 pm »
Getting ready for my first really experimetal build, it seems that an analog voltmeter would be much more intuitive in terms of comparing signals at different points in the circuit.  So would an analog voltage meter be a useful addition to my tool collection? (already have DMM, listening amp, signal generator & oscilloscope)

I do not think that I am up to the challenges presented by a vintage VTVM at this point in time.  New bench-top units look silly expensive - Simpsons start at $200.  There are several HP-400E solid state voltmeters on eBay but I have never tested the water there and know nothing about how to make sure I'm getting a decent deal.  The "refurbished" HPs on eBay also look silly expensive.

Of course, a second good quality DMM might actually be the best choice.

Any advice or suggestions?

Thanks,

Chip
Quote from: jjasilli
We have proven once again no plan survives contact with the enemy, or in this case, with the amp.

Quote from: PRR
Plan to be wrong about something.

Offline bnwitt

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 2954
  • Crankin' out the tone.
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Analog Voltmeter?
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2009, 06:59:14 pm »
Chipster, you simply must get a VTVM if you're going to do seriors tubing:

http://www.tone-lizard.com/VTVM.htm

Guides on your quest for tone.
 Oh yeah, and I'm usually just kidding so don't take me too seriously.

Offline Fresh_Start

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 2856
  • noob de Lux
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Analog Voltmeter?
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2009, 09:00:10 pm »
I'd read that Tone Lizard piece and thought maybe it was over the top, but if you say I must have a VTVM then I must!

So this solid state VM wouldn't cut it because of isolation/input impedance issues?
http://cgi.ebay.com/Hewlett-Packard-400E-AC-Voltmeter_W0QQitemZ220487177578QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item33560f556a&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

I've never bought anything off eBay and have no idea how to figure out what's a good deal and what isn't.  Is a return policy any protection?  If the seller "doesn't know how to test the unit", that's probably a red flag right?  Do the eBay seller ratings mean anything?

Last but not least, there seem to be more Heathkit units out there than anything else.  Is that a reasonable brand to search for?  

Thanks again for the help - this "place" is fantastic because of the contributors here.  Oh, and Doug's no slouch either :wink:

Chip
« Last Edit: October 05, 2009, 12:19:04 pm by Fresh_Start »
Quote from: jjasilli
We have proven once again no plan survives contact with the enemy, or in this case, with the amp.

Quote from: PRR
Plan to be wrong about something.

Offline sluckey

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 5075
    • Sluckey Amps
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Analog Voltmeter?
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2009, 10:08:45 pm »
You really don't want the HP-400, do you? It's an excellent AC voltmeter, capable of giving you accurate RMS readings across the entire audio band, but that's all it does. The HP-427 is a much more versatile meter. It does ac/dc volts and ohms.

Triplett 850 is also a good electronic volt/ohm meter. Both of these meters are line operated. You should be able to get a good working unit for under $40.00 on eBay.

Simpson 260 and Triplett 630 are both good 20KΩ/volt battery operated VOMs. Since they are portable units, chances are greater that they may have been drop kicked at some time.

I've never been burned buying test equip on ebay. Smart shopping helps. I actually bought a couple no-op HP function generators a while back. Paid $15.00 total. Cleaned the power switch on both units to make them work. Tried to sell one here but got no interest. Did sell it for $40.00 on ebay though.

My ebay philosophy on this stuff is that I'm willing to gamble my max bid price. If it works that's great. If not, and I can't fix it, I'll toss it, or get another unit and keep the broken one for parts. If I can't find a service manual I won't bid.

The only thing I use analog meters for these days is tuning for dips, peaks, or nulls (Not much of that in audio work). Or checking front/back ratios on diodes and transistors. Or checking caps, especially electrolytics. An analog meter is also very handy for trem oscillator circuits. Probably 95% of my meter work is with a Fluke 187.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline Rosser

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 139
  • 1967 Blackface DR/1968 Gibson Hawk (2 EL-84s)
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Analog Voltmeter?
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2009, 04:57:32 pm »
I like my RCA Senior VoltOhmyst. Got it for <$20 on ebay. Works fine. Later I bought another one to use as parts just in case -- it was <$10 if IIRC. Also came with extra probes. I have found mine to be pretty accurate after it warms up a while.
Did I leave the soldering iron on?

Offline jjasilli

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 6731
  • Took the power supply test. . . got a B+
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Analog Voltmeter?
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2009, 10:30:32 am »
I got a heathkit VTVM IM-18 on eBay -- mostly cause I needed to rebuild amps with 600VDC on the plates, and this was a very inexpensive solution to that problem, since it goes to 1500VDC.  It is an education in old-school range switching and scale reading.

Offline PRR

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 17082
  • Maine USA
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Analog Voltmeter?
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2009, 12:34:34 am »
> would an analog voltage meter be a useful addition

YES.

But don't over-buy. Plain old Heath, Eico, RCA bench-box electronic multi-meter.

H-P 400 (and the older Boonton) are excellent AC volt meters, but I very-very-rarely needed one that good in amp-work. They don't read impulse/transients well, so you can't read guitar pickup output meaningfully. Most places I needed to read small ACV could be read on the "1.5V" scale of a dumb general-purpose multi-meter.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2009, 12:39:23 am by PRR »

Offline Fresh_Start

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 2856
  • noob de Lux
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Analog Voltmeter?
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2009, 07:53:38 am »
Dear Mr. R - your message was somewhat ambiguous.  Could you please clarify?
[/sarcasm off]

Thanks guys.  I guess I'm off to eBay (with great trepidation).

Chip
Quote from: jjasilli
We have proven once again no plan survives contact with the enemy, or in this case, with the amp.

Quote from: PRR
Plan to be wrong about something.

Offline sluckey

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 5075
    • Sluckey Amps
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Analog Voltmeter?
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2009, 08:24:00 am »
I think PRR is saying the same thing I said about analog meters in general and HP-400 specifically. An analog VOM is very useful. A HP-400 is a one trick pony. I predict that you'll play with the 400 for about a week and then it will become the least used piece of test equipment you own.

If we could sit at a bench for 30 minutes, I could convince you to forget the HP-400 and look for an analog VOM or VTVM.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline jjasilli

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 6731
  • Took the power supply test. . . got a B+
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Analog Voltmeter?
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2009, 08:38:43 am »
I guess I'm off to eBay (with great trepidation).

Don't worry.  Buy from a well-rated seller with a good number of sales.  Get a unit that's promised to be in working condition, with probes.  Many manuals are availbale online; or someone here can probably send you one, especially if you stick to the brands mentioned by PRR.

My first Heathkit IM-18 was promised to be in working condition, but both the probe & unit itself were in disrepair.  The seller offered a full refund with return, but its price was under $10, so not worth the return shipping.  Then I opened it up and found a Mullard 12a_7 in it!  Anyway I immediately bought a second IM-18 with probe & manual which works great, though it needed calibration which is simple if you have the manual.  Never got around to fixing the first unit.

This got me started on a small collection of vintage vacuum tube test equipment:  Signal generator, signal tracer (listening amp), resistance-capacitance comparator, ancient variac, misc. decade boxes, and HV bench power supplies.  All were bought cheaply by bottom feeding on eBay.  I'm not sure that a VTVM is really necessary, as PRR says.  E.g., I later got a digital Fluke 8000A bench (semi-portable) meter.  That or similar can be had in good working condition for about $45 more or less.

Offline mackie2

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 166
  • "Follow The Red Wire"
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Analog Voltmeter?
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2009, 08:28:41 pm »
Hello All--

One of my old meters--Electronic Measurements Corp Model 102.
Still works-old,old.

Mackie2
« Last Edit: October 07, 2009, 08:37:16 pm by mackie2 »
1/2 a Valve is better than no Valve at all.

Offline tubesornothing

  • SMG
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 2664
  • A strong spark ought to bear calamities...
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Analog Voltmeter?
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2009, 09:09:58 am »
OK guys - what am I missing?  Why is an analog VOM better than a DMM?  My VTVM is sitting in a box.

Of course I am just looking for an excuse to buy a nice old simpson...

Offline jjasilli

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 6731
  • Took the power supply test. . . got a B+
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Analog Voltmeter?
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2009, 10:14:19 am »
Your request for an excuse is hereby GRANTED!  :blob1:

Offline sluckey

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 5075
    • Sluckey Amps
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Analog Voltmeter?
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2009, 11:06:41 am »
Here are a few reasons I'll always have an analog meter. Actually, I have 4 analog meters, Simpson 260, Triplett 630, HP-427 electronic VOM (ss equiv to a VTVM), and an old cheapy RS VOM I bought in 1970. Probably a big reason I have analog meters is the fact that I grew up on analog meters working on analog circuits. That's mostly a nostalga thing, but here are some good, valid reasons...

Ex. 1. Diode check using ohm function. Us old timers called this the "front to back ratio".

Set to x1K or x10K. Connect your leads across a diode. You'll get either a high reading or low reading. Hi reading means the battery in your meter is reverse biasing the diode PN junction, allowing very little current to flow thru the diode. A low reading means the diode is forward biased, allowing lot's of current to flow thru the diode. High or low reading depends on how you connect your leads to the diode. Let's assume the negative end of your meter battery is connected to the red meter lead. (Most are and you can verify by checking the voltage on your meter leads with another meter. It's handy to know this fact about your particular meter.) Connect the red lead (negative voltage) to the diode cathode and connect the black lead (positive voltage) to the anode. The diode will be forward biased and the resistance reading will be low. Now reverse the meter leads. The diode will now be reverse biased, resulting in a high resistance reading. You're not interested in the actual numbers. You're only interested in a high reading one way and a low reading the other way. This hi/lo ratio indicates a good diode. If you get low or zero ohms in both directions, the diode is shorted. If you get a high or infinity reading in both directions, the diode is open. Just a note... Most good VOMs like Simpson 260 or Triplett 630 have a polarity switch that actually reverses the leads with the flip of a switch. This makes front/back ratio checks easy.

Ex. 2. Bipolar Transistor check using ohm function. Just expand on example 1. Transistors are 3 layer devices with 2 junctions, NPN or PNP. You can check the front to back ratio of transistor junctions the same as diode junctions. Once again, assume your meter has the negative battery post connected to the red lead. Set the meter to x1K. (For some power xistors, you may need to use the x1 scale.) So, let's check a PNP transistor. The center layer (N) is the base. The N means you need a negative voltage on the base (with respect to the emitter) for forward bias. Connect your red (neg) lead to the base. Connect your black (pos) lead to the emitter. You should get a low (forward biased) ohm reading. Reverse the leads and you should get a high (reversed biased) reading. A good hi/lo (front/back) ratio means the base/emitter junction is good. Now repeat this for the base and collector junction. Once again, a good junction will give a front/back ratio. And finally, check the emitter to collector leads. Since both emitter and collector are doped with the same polarity materials, you should always read a hi/hi ratio. You can actually check that the transistor can be turned on and off by connecting the red (neg) lead to the collector and the black (pos) lead to the emitter. The reading will be high. Now touch the base lead to the collector lead. This will turn the transistor on and the ohm reading will switch from hi to low, indicating the transistor is now biased on and passing current from emitter to collector.

I know this sounds like a lot, so I'm gonna simplify to a practical way to do this. Connect the red (neg) lead to the base using a gator clip. Touch the black lead first to the emitter, then to the collector. Both readings should be low. Flip the polarity switch on your meter. Once again, touch the black lead first to the emitter, then to the collector. Both readings should now be high. Now connect the red lead to the collector and the black lead to the emitter. The reading should be high. Flip the polarity switch. The reading should still be high. This is how a good transistor will look. Anything else, and the transistor is bad. Silicon transistors give very high front to back ratios, but germaniums do not have such a good ratio. Also, I've used a PNP for all examples. NPNs are checked exactly the same, but polarities will be reversed.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2009, 11:13:00 am by sluckey »
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline sluckey

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 5075
    • Sluckey Amps
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Analog Voltmeter?
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2009, 11:07:35 am »
(continued)

Ex. 3. Check a cap using ohm function. Most ohm meters are reverse reading, ie, open leads means no current flows, so the needle is at rest and the scale says "infinity". Short the leads together, as you must do to zero the meter, and current flows and the needle moves to the other end of the scale, zero ohms. So, set your meter to the x100K scale and connect a .01 cap to the leads. You will see the needle quickly 'kick' up then settle down at infinity. If you use a .1 cap, the needle will kick farther and a little slower, but will settle down at infinity. This indicates a good cap. If the cap settles at any reading other than infinity, the cap is leaky. The lower the ohm reading, the more leaky it is, and of course, a zero reading indicates a shorted cap. Picofarad values, just check for infinity reading unless you have a x100M scale.

Electrolytics are checked the same way, but it's best to observe polarity. Set your meter to the x100K scale. Connect the leads to a cap that has been discharged completely. You will see the needle quickly deflect upscale toward zero (it may even momentarily peg the needle). Then the needle will slowly drop back towards infinity as the cap becomes charged. It will probably never reach infinity and should stop at some high resistance value, indicating full charge. The higher the reading, the less leakage you have. Some leakage is normal, so check some known good caps until you get a feel for what's normal for your particular meter. This will vary fror meter to meter. A cap that has a low resistance reading has a lot of leakage and should probably be replaced, and a zero reading is shorted. Another thing to look for,,, once the needle has settled down, continue watching. If the needle begins creeping back toward a lower reading, the cap is definitely leaking. Always toss a creepy cap.

Ex. 4. Observe the LFO AC signal generated by your trem/vibrato oscillator. You will see the needle fluctuate at the rate of the oscillator. Slow speed settings produce a pronounced needle swing while a fast rate may just appear as a fluttering needle. I've never seen a DMM that was fast enough to see this action. By the time they sample and display, the signal has changed, so the next sample/display is different, etc, etc, etc. Looks like jibberish.

For all the above examples it's a good idea to experiment with several different known good components until you have a feel for how your meter will respond. Different meters will behave slightly differently.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline tubesornothing

  • SMG
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 2664
  • A strong spark ought to bear calamities...
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Analog Voltmeter?
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2009, 11:14:41 am »
Wow Steve, thanks!  Simpson 260, here I come!!!

Offline PRR

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 17082
  • Maine USA
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Analog Voltmeter?
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2009, 09:53:33 pm »
> Diode check using ohm function

There's more.

In the Forward direction, in Ohms range, look at your 1.5VDC scale. A good Si diode always shows 0.4V to 0.7V depending which X1 X10 X1K range you turn to. And on the same range, little diodes read higher V than fat diodes.

Look at what is really happening. There is a 1.5V battery, a resistor selected with the range switch, and a 0-1.5V meter with a wacky "Ohms" calibration.

If mid-scale is "10 ohms", and you are on the "X10" range, the resistor is 100 ohms.

If the external device is open, the (very high Z) meter sees the full 1.5V battery through the range resistor and reads full-scale, 1.5V.

If the external device is short, the meter reads zero (and the 1.5V battery is draining through the range resistor).

If the external device is 100 ohms, with 100 ohms range resistor, the 100+100 ohms splits the 1.5V battery in half, meter reads half-scale. For resistors you would read "100 ohms". But note that this is also 0.75V on the 1.5V scale.

A typical small Si diode drops 0.50V at 0.01mA, 0.62V at 1mA, 0.74V at 100mA. Note that a wide (10,00:1) range of current gives a small (1.5:1) range of voltage.

So if "a part" reads a little below half-scale, with very slight change as you turn from X1 to X10K, but much higher in the other direction, it is a diode. Check it out. Try again with a diode plus a resistor, series or shunt. By turning Range you can see that it is diode-like up to a point, then more resistor-like. This is a way to check diodes (or base-emitter junctions) in-circuit, with resistors masking some of the diode action.

You can even figure the current the ohm-meter is putting through the diode, by noting that the difference between 1.5V and the reading is the voltage-drop across the range resistor. You know its value, you do math, you know the current. It may work out to an odd value like 0.9mA, but if you need a certain diode-drop at 1.0mA, this will be close enough to rough-sort available diodes. Or even plot the V/I curve and see if Shockley's Law is correct.

Yes, you "could" do the same with a DVM. Potentially easier: without the handy printed scale, a DVM tends to use a constant-current source instead of a range resistor. Except: the basic meter is 0.2V, so you never get readings in the 0.5V-0.7V area that diodes work at.

Offline Fresh_Start

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 2856
  • noob de Lux
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Analog Voltmeter?
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2009, 10:07:46 pm »
Guys - thank you so much! 

We may need to condense & archive the advice on using an analog multimeter IMHO.

Chip
Quote from: jjasilli
We have proven once again no plan survives contact with the enemy, or in this case, with the amp.

Quote from: PRR
Plan to be wrong about something.

Offline Fresh_Start

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 2856
  • noob de Lux
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Analog Voltmeter?
« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2009, 08:00:52 am »
Possibly dumb question:  How important is it to get the original probes with a VTVM? 

Can't you just "roll your own"?  I'm thinking new probes would be safer anyway based on photos I'm seeing of old probes with cracking insulation & uninsultated alligator clips.

Thanks,

Chip
Quote from: jjasilli
We have proven once again no plan survives contact with the enemy, or in this case, with the amp.

Quote from: PRR
Plan to be wrong about something.

Offline sluckey

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 5075
    • Sluckey Amps
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Analog Voltmeter?
« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2009, 08:25:56 am »
Depends on the particular VTVM. Many VTVM probes are not just a length of wire connected to the tip. Here's an excerpt from my Triplett 850 manual. My HP-427 uses separate jacks for different functions, so it can use standard banana plug straight thru leads/probes.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline Fresh_Start

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 2856
  • noob de Lux
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Analog Voltmeter?
« Reply #20 on: October 09, 2009, 10:21:58 am »
Depends on the particular VTVM. Many VTVM probes are not just a length of wire connected to the tip. Here's an excerpt from my Triplett 850 manual. My HP-427 uses separate jacks for different functions, so it can use standard banana plug straight thru leads/probes.

Thank you!

Chip
Quote from: jjasilli
We have proven once again no plan survives contact with the enemy, or in this case, with the amp.

Quote from: PRR
Plan to be wrong about something.

Offline TheValveDoctor

  • Level 1
  • *
  • Posts: 1
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Analog Voltmeter?
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2009, 10:24:36 am »
Sorry guys,

Maybe I'm missing the nostalgia kick or something, but from a technical standpoint, apart from their ability to indicate slowly fluctuating readings, there are NO reasons to buy an analogue test meter. Modern digital test meters, even cheap ones, typically have input impedances of 10Mohms or greater, far greater accuracy and virually all DMM's nowadays have diode junction testing capability. The only possible case for laying hands on an older alalogue multimeter is the fact that voltage readings on older circuit schematics were most likely taken with a meter which had an input impedance of 20,000 Ohms-per-volt. VTVMs or VOMs simply used a valve to increase the input impedance of an analogue meter movement and iron out the non-linearities inherent in these. Also, with the exception of high-voltage probes, there is no reason not to construct your own test leads. I've never bought a set of leads - I AM Scottish, true enough - but these in nothing to be gained from buying any of the 'special' leads touted for this purpose. Select a decent quality, flexible, silicone coated cable and insulated crocodile clips and you can't go wrong!
Cheers,
TheValveDoctor

Offline tubesornothing

  • SMG
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 2664
  • A strong spark ought to bear calamities...
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Analog Voltmeter?
« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2009, 12:31:38 pm »
Just picked up a sweet Simpson 260 Series 8.  A little bit of gamble on ebay, but I lucked out this time.  Great condition, clean battery compartment, reads just nice and came with a case and test leads.

Looking forward to trying some of the examples set out by PRR and sluckey.

Offline jjasilli

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 6731
  • Took the power supply test. . . got a B+
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Analog Voltmeter?
« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2009, 03:46:55 pm »
 :smiley:

Offline tubesornothing

  • SMG
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 2664
  • A strong spark ought to bear calamities...
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Analog Voltmeter?
« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2009, 05:13:28 pm »
So if "a part" reads a little below half-scale, with very slight change as you turn from X1 to X10K, but much higher in the other direction, it is a diode. Check it out. Try again with a diode plus a resistor, series or shunt. By turning Range you can see that it is diode-like up to a point, then more resistor-like. This is a way to check diodes (or base-emitter junctions) in-circuit, with resistors masking some of the diode action.

I coulda used this yesterday down at the electronics shop.  I guy brought in a display circuit board from his car.  One of the SMT components fell out, a know problem with these boards.  He wanted another part, just like the other four on the board.  The SMT component only said 690 on it - no idea whether it was a resistor, cap or diode.

Offline PRR

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 17082
  • Maine USA
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Analog Voltmeter?
« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2009, 09:19:52 pm »
> ... ... there are NO reasons to buy an analogue test meter.

I persist in insisting that a tube-amp hacker "should" have a VTVM (or good FET-VM).

Terminology:

> VTVMs or VOMs simply used a valve to increase the input impedance of an analogue meter movement

Term-useage changes. But in my day, a "VOM" was a passive meter, a "VTVM" had a tube and wanted you to know it.

> and iron out the non-linearities inherent in these.

Not sure what you mean here. The Volt, Amps, and Ohms ranges of a classic VTVM did nothing about linearity. Meter movements are pretty linear. Not exactly; but when H-P wanted to improve accuracy beyond what their meter-movement would give, they implemented a system to custom-engrave the meter scale for the movement it was mounted on. The only "linearity" issue the VTVM addresses is low-level AC voltage: vacuum diodes are a little smoother than copper-oxide, and even so the lowest-ACV range used a custom scale.

> voltage readings on older circuit schematics were most likely taken with a meter which had an input impedance of 20,000 Ohms-per-volt.

It varies. Older lower-tech gear sometimes was marked for 20K/V passive meters (VTVMs are not handy on a service call). Most Fenders are marked for 5Meg or 10Meg meters. Note though that a 20K/V passive meter on the 500V range is 20K*500= 10,000K= 10Meg, same as a VTVM.

> their ability to indicate slowly fluctuating readings,

As you say, this can be super-useful around tremolo circuits, or motorboating, which completely baffle most DVMs.

They also twitch on sudden change, which is sometimes good to know if a point is supposed to be steady.

> Modern digital test meters, even cheap ones, typically have input impedances of 10Mohms or greater

They emulate the old 10-Meg VTVM custom.

> far greater accuracy

So? Vacuum-tube audio amps are not precision systems.

An audio voltage-amplifier plate typically sits at 50% to 75% of the stage supply voltage. If it is ANYwhere in that zone, it is probably not your problem. With a VTVM, you tap the B+ and the plate, look at the relative needle-angles. A fast VTVM will take both readings close-enough quicker than a DVM will auto-range one point, and then you have to turn two numbers into a ratio to know if it is roughly-right.

It can be too easy to obsess about "197.3V" versus "207.6V" differences on a DMM. A needle reminds you that everything is relative and approximate.

> virually all DMM's nowadays have diode junction testing capability

Almost any -analog- ohm meter can rough-check diodes. Yes, a good DMM is better for this... I'm not arguing against owning a basic DMM, I own(ed) 5 or 6.

And between chip technology and modern safety concerns, many DMMs have shockingly low "maximum voltage", often as low as 600V. Marginal for big tube work. Yes, the "600V max" may be more CYA legal paperwork than actual limit. OTOH, digi-meters die "for no reason", and over-voltage into a teensy junction may be the reason. Most VTVMs have a 1,500V range. Sometimes you wonder if the jack and first resistor are really safe at this level. And I have blown-out the ACV coupling-cap a few times. But they were meant to be used around tube voltages.

There absolutely are good reasons to own DMMs. It FLOATS, no ground reference. You can't bang the needle (a good VTVM won't melt a meter, but a VOM sure can). If you need to know 178.9V within 0.1%, a VTVM will only say 180V +/-5V (2% at best; 0.5% on some H-P). Some diode-checks will read junctions in the presence of other parts without human interpretation (which may be good or bad). They are now cheap enough (I remember when they cost a week's pay) to own several and monitor many points or to cross-check against each other.

Offline Fresh_Start

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 2856
  • noob de Lux
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Analog Voltmeter?
« Reply #26 on: October 28, 2009, 09:56:06 pm »
Well, I'm darned glad you still think there's some purpose for these old things.  I got a Sencore Field Effects Meter (analog FET multimeter if you will) off eBay which seems to work pretty well.  It's "portable" and "floating" but still has a decent sized meter good enough for these old eyes.  Uses one 9 volt and one C battery.  Yea - no wonky & expensive batteries needed!  Plus I found a complete users manual online for free.

Then something weird happened.  eBay kept sending me reminders about the items I had on my "Watch" list and my "Saved Search".  One day I put in a bid on a Heathkit IM-11 just for giggles.  Based on comparable sales over the past couple of weeks I thought there was no way I'd actually win and end up buying it.  Logic does not apply to eBay as far as I can tell.  Got to test it this weekend to see if it works too.

BTW if anyone has a copy of the complete IM-11 manual, I'd greatly appreciate the assembly section.  Did find a partial copy with most of the calibration & usage instructions.

Cheers,

Chip
Quote from: jjasilli
We have proven once again no plan survives contact with the enemy, or in this case, with the amp.

Quote from: PRR
Plan to be wrong about something.

Offline sluckey

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 5075
    • Sluckey Amps
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Analog Voltmeter?
« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2009, 10:10:46 pm »
Here's a schematic. Same tubes as my Triplett 801.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline jjasilli

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 6731
  • Took the power supply test. . . got a B+
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Analog Voltmeter?
« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2009, 10:57:24 pm »
It seems that all free internet postings of Heathkit manuals have recently been scrubbed from the internet due to copyright laws.  Here's the site of the new owner who sells your manual for $10.00:  https://sc2.vom.com/d8/index.fwx?C=MANUALS

Also www.mikesmanuals.com resells vintage Heathkit manuals, but doesn't have yours in stock.  eBay is another source.

Offline Fresh_Start

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 2856
  • noob de Lux
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Analog Voltmeter?
« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2009, 10:24:28 am »
Thanks guys!  JJ - that manual outfit needs to get back to me and confirm that they have the complete manual.  Otherwise I'll have to go to eBay...

Just as an update, when I first turned the IM-11 on and let it warm up, the needle pegged left or right depending on the setting.  The Zero Adjust did nothing.  Pulled the 12AU7 figuring that was the most likely suspect, or at least the easiest to test.  It made noise through my 5F2-A, so I figured it was good to go.  Put it back in the VTVM and voila' she works!  A little contact cleaner on those multipole switches and it seems to be close to calibrated.  Yippee!

Got a couple of questions though (go figure, eh?):

Why would someone add a bannana plug jack on the front panel attached to the plates of the 12AU7?

Should the shield on the positive lead of the uni-probe be grounded?  I opened up the plug and the positive lead is dangling by a thread.  The other probe (high voltage?) clearly has the positive lead's shield grounded at the plug.

Would it be heresy to put an insulated alligator clip on the leads, or should I just make a probe of my own minus the resistor for DC measurements?

Last, the Tone Lizard (interviewed in Vintage Guitar this month!) says he always replaces the coupling cap on VTVMs.  There is a big, fat .047uf 1,600 volt cap in a very inconvenient place.  The power supply filter cap is a 16uf 150 volt electrolytic.  Using the FET meter, the coupling cap appears to test fine for leakage.  However, the electrolytic reads between 40 and 50 ohms.  That's bad, right?  I did check a couple of unused electrolytics first to see how they reacted.  I also checked for DC voltage across the electrolytic before the test to make sure it was drained.

So should I replace the electrolytic filter cap and leave the coupling cap alone?  Any problem putting a 20uf cap in there instead of the 16uf?

I really appreciate all of your help.  These things are WAY cheaper than vintage amps and still need some tender loving care.  Just what I need - more distractions!

Cheers,

Chip
« Last Edit: October 29, 2009, 10:30:38 am by Fresh_Start »
Quote from: jjasilli
We have proven once again no plan survives contact with the enemy, or in this case, with the amp.

Quote from: PRR
Plan to be wrong about something.

Offline jjasilli

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 6731
  • Took the power supply test. . . got a B+
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Analog Voltmeter?
« Reply #30 on: October 29, 2009, 11:13:48 am »
Thanks to Sluckey, I can see that your IM-11 is nearly identical to my IM-18.  I have the Complete original IM-18 manual with build instructions, calibration instructions, schematic, etc.  If Freshstart or anyone else would like a copy, just give me a snail-mailing address and I'll lend  :angel you my photocopy.

Offline stingray_65

  • SMG
  • Level 3
  • *****
  • Posts: 926
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Analog Voltmeter?
« Reply #31 on: October 31, 2009, 10:02:10 am »
My long term winter project is to build an assebly/test bench.

on my list of thing I NEED is a VTVM

I still have my first VOM a Simpson 260 with a cracked case that I got from a TV repairman that lived in my neighborhood (God bless Jerry R for his patience with a dumb kid with shallow pockets that wanted a color TV) and that was well over 30 yrs ago and survived all sorts of trauma and abuse

A high quality DMM like a Fluke with auto ranging is indispensable and will be your meter for 95% of your needs. You'll grab it and use it most of the time because its simple, acurate, portable, nearly indistructable, and VERY easy to read. but agian they have thier limits and that's when you really want an anolouge meter.

Spend some good money on a DMM (<$100) and you won't be sorry. Then sit back and wait for a great deal on an amazing VTVM or other anologe meter.

"Tried to sell one here but got no interest. Did sell it for $40.00 on ebay though." sluckey
Yeah! thats amazing isn't it! some time you can't give this stuff away! LOL
My mind is aglow with whirling, transient nodes of thought careening through a cosmic vapor of invention (H. Lamarr)

Offline mackie2

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 166
  • "Follow The Red Wire"
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Analog Voltmeter?
« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2009, 04:28:24 pm »
THE VALVE DOCTOR

I'm a little older than you, not much--I'm Scotch-Irish.  I believe the younger generation(s) should get their whistle wet if they wish  on old technology--for them to decide  what they want in their  arsenal.  I personally have several analog meters. Like Slucky, I spent a lot of hours troubleshooting equip finding  thousands of problems in my 34 years with FAA.  There are only 3 meters in the new world:  FLUKE-FLUKE-LUKE--But I like old analog--Triplett--I'm looking at an old  630NA  right now.

Each to his own.

I even use a slide rule occasionally--LOOK MA NO BATTERY!

I like old SCOTCH too!

Mackie2
« Last Edit: November 15, 2009, 07:58:40 pm by mackie2 »
1/2 a Valve is better than no Valve at all.

Offline PRR

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 17082
  • Maine USA
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Analog Voltmeter?
« Reply #33 on: November 15, 2009, 06:12:37 pm »
> I even use a slide rule occasionally--LOOK MA NO BATTERY!

I moved my whole house last month. Lots of stuff still in boxes. Here's an un-posed snap of my PC area: note that the slide-rule is an inch closer than the calculator. (The ruler is on top mainly because I was just re-screwing shelves, as shown by the drill-dust.)

Offline tubesornothing

  • SMG
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 2664
  • A strong spark ought to bear calamities...
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Analog Voltmeter?
« Reply #34 on: November 15, 2009, 06:17:26 pm »
he he slide rule.  Those were **just** going out when I was in grade 9.  I did not have the pleasure of really using one.

Well I am happy to say I used my 260 all this weekend - it was great and very useful.  A real help with measuring dynamics, like sag and watching the cathode voltage drop under load.  Took a little bit to get use to the scales again, but really helped out.


Offline Ritchie200

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 3485
  • Smokin' 88's!
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Analog Voltmeter?
« Reply #35 on: November 23, 2009, 11:03:05 pm »
And just in case your Simpson did not come with a manual, OR you want to bone up on needle reading and associated applications....here you go, pick your year:
http://www.simpson260.com/downloads/downloads.htm
To give you an idea of how old I am, I use old 78 phono needles in my 260 probes - works great, no slippin' and slidin' on the solder joints!  Just have to be careful putting them in my pocket!

Jim

ps, check out the "1,001 Uses For Your 260 Volt Ohm Milliammeter" at the bottom, 1953 and 1965 versions!
« Last Edit: November 23, 2009, 11:18:42 pm by Ritchie200 »

My religion? I'm a Cathode Follower!
Can we have everything louder than everything else?

Offline supro66

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 525
  • I love tube amps
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Analog Voltmeter?
« Reply #36 on: March 07, 2010, 08:07:27 am »
Chipster, you simply must get a VTVM if you're going to do seriors tubing:

http://www.tone-lizard.com/VTVM.htm




I usa a Simpson Meter some times it works good
Any way I had this Supro 6420 Thunderbolt amp build and sounded good
I was retesting voltages with it to compare with my other volt meter
I had this hum I could not find
Shut off the Simpson meter the hum went away

 


Choose a link from the
Hoffman Amplifiers parts catalog
Mobile Device
Catalog Link
Yard Sale
Discontinued
Misc. Hardware
What's New Board Building
 Parts
Amp trim
Handles
Lamps
Diodes
Hoffman Turret
 Boards
Channel
Switching
Resistors Fender Eyelet
 Boards
Screws/Nuts
Washers
Jacks/Plugs
Connectors
Misc Eyelet
Boards
Tools
Capacitors Custom Boards
Tubes
Valves
Pots
Knobs
Fuses/Cords Chassis
Tube
Sockets
Switches Wire
Cable


Handy Links
Tube Amp Library
Tube Amp
Schematics library
Design a custom Eyelet or
Turret Board
DIY Layout Creator
File analyzer program
DIY Layout Creator
File library
Transformer Wiring
Diagrams
Hoffmanamps
Facebook page
Hoffman Amplifiers
Discount Program