PRR on dixie-cups and string

[PRR]

I moved to Maine. TimeWarner tole me I could have hi-speed innernet. Yeah, "someday". After a week of NO internet, we got a voice-line from Fairpoint. I put a modem on it, but I'm way out in the woods and 56K ain't what it could be.

So that's why I'm not here, and won't be here much for a while.

 -PRR

[tubenit]

I definitely miss your posts and humor! Hope you get something worked out. I enjoy having you around & the forum greatly benefits from your expertise.

Best regards, Tubenit

[EL34]

You gotta chop wood to stay warm this winter?

Going back to dial up is rough once you get spoiled.
Check in when you can.
good luck up there

[LooseChange]

That's not good.  Did you have trouble getting Fairpoint to hook you up? In northern VT they are in big trouble.... Satellite may be a choice?

I'm sorry for your loss! 

[tubesornothing]

Its worth it for me to fly out there with 10miles of cable and hook you up myself...

Until then, here's a fun project...

http://www.ab9il.net/wlan-projects/wifi6.html

[PRR]

Time-Warner's Ad says "1-2-3". Yeah, "someday". Site-check, 4 days to talk to their billing computer (which crashed the day before I placed my order, and -still- isn't fixed), then maybe get an appointment for a guy with a box....  It WORKED for the guy before us. This is totally T-W stupidity. (Like the fact their status and apology emails are sent from an improperly registered server, so my mailserver is filing them as probable spam. All they gotta do there is register the hostname/IP so rDNS matches.)

> Did you have trouble getting Fairpoint to hook you up?

We got a voice-line from Fairpoint in 23 hours. Just voice, no hi-speed and their TV option is a bundle with DirectTV. And they said line 1, and when that didn't work they said try the outside box which had no visible jacks (I broke in and found them). Live at the pole but not the house: another interface in the cellar with line 2 working, so I moved every wire in the house to the line 2 screws. Dial-tone! And don't have to stand in the driveway to get a little cellfone leakage.

Lost the line while typing this. Need more coal for the modem.

We are busy and tired but doing fine. Corgis doing fine, especially after we got their couch set up and found their treats.

[Ritchie200]

Wow, nothing like "personal" service!  I've got satellite with Hughes and while I do have my (many) complaints over fair use, and support from India/Vietnam/Philipines before someone from the USofA answers the phone - it is my only option.  Not sure about signal strength in Maine as the sats are in equatorial orbit, but maybe an option?  Hey, as long as the dogs are happy!
Jim

[madison]

Beyond the net problems, excellent news about the move.
Hope you are having a good time.
Just fired up the stove tonight.....couldn't wait anymore.

[RicharD]

Maybe we should all you Morse Code so we don't overload your Dixie Cup-n- string thang.

-.. .- -. --. / - .... . / .. -. - . .-. -. . - ... / .- .-. . / ... .-.. --- .-- / .... . .-. .

[imaradiostar]

What part of Maine? My in-laws are in Georgetown (near Bath) and had horrible satellite internet for years- now they have some kind of long range DSL product and it seems to work pretty well. My father in law works from home several days a week so he needs for it to be reliable!

jamie

[Bassmanster]

Ya cahn't Google theah from heah.

Go Luddite, I say.   :icon_flower:

Are you near the coast?  Is there surf?  I know a guy that surfs in N.S.

Good luck.

[rafe]

Maine has good surf .....check you tube

[PRR]

> What part of Maine?

Outside Mt Desert (Bar Harbor) Island.

> My in-laws are ...near Bath

Bah. Southerners. Practically Boston.

Pretty country. We seriously considered the area.

> Are you near the coast?  

Well, I'm from California and New Jersey. Jersey Shore is near-straight. California Coast has a few bends, but even at Topanga and Malibu it is mostly +/- a mile or so. "Near the coast" is clear.

Here, 1 mile east -or- west I can dip a toe in tidal sea-water, but that's up one of the many-many bays which are the Maine Coast. To get to "open ocean", where you see more sea than land, is 30 miles out.

To be explicit: if I was nearer the coast, I would have "water view", and my property taxes would be ten times higher. I'm far enough back to have low tax, yet see the sea any time I go to the IGA.

> Is there surf?

Last month some tourists were sucked off the National Park footpath and washed out to sea.
 
It's a lot colder than Hawaii. It is as split-head rocky as upper California. There's no Ron-Jon shop. But as you say, surfers will surf anywhere.

[Frankenamp]

Good to hear yer doin' OK, (was beginnin' t' get worried) Sounds like you are in a really nice area (so beiing w/o hi-speed internet isn't as worrisome as it could be). Be sure to keep a pile of wood by the door for those cold nights (and a generator for the electric mattress cover)! 

[rafe]

  I grew up down at 'the shore'(there is only one) I would go out on the jetties when you had to jump from rock to rock and they sometimes had slime on them ....now the slime is all over the place lol but the jetties are easy access
looks like you are pretty dug in up there "Darkdank Bay" If it wasn't cold I'd be up thataway too,. probably the Catskills.... best of luck in your new diggs, make sure the laboatory is well lit and heated......

[Bassmanster]

"There's no Ron-Jon shop."

Thank God for that.

Real surf shops are tiny, dingy, and don't have swimwear.

Post when you see a moose...

[supro66]

Spent many two weeks in Maine in Augest

BERWICK Maine, South east tip

 uncle has a 100 acre farm there

Them Chicken Lobsters [ one claw ]
$1.50 a pound in 1971
Two claw lobesters went for $2.50

a pound is a pound who needs the other claw anyway

[jhadhar65]

Dial up?  You need TiSP!!

http://www.google.com/tisp/

I must say I'm one satisfied user and I've never been more regular.  DSL is for sissies.


On a much more serious note, avoid satellite unless you really have no other choice.  Right now, I'm good for:



I spend at least as much as the next guy who routinely sees 2Mbps+ from stagnant downstream DSL.  I guess if I really had no choice, i.e. I couldn't wait for the next generation 4G aircard and cradlepoint router, then... I'd still stick with dialup.

Get a yagi, a 30' pole, or this.  Point it in the direction of the Open Hearth Inn on Route 3.

[Shrapnel]

PRR,

read this: http://blogs.zdnet.com/security/?p=4702&tag=nl.e550

"This is a really serious issue for any Time Warner/Road Runner running the SMC8014 router:"

Jist of this blog covers some weaknesses of some of the T W cable modems...  with dialup, not a concern, but it's probably something to be wary of IF you get this cable modem.

[tubesornothing]

Dial up?  You need TiSP!!

http://www.google.com/tisp/

TiSP is crap. I tried it up at the cabin. I doesn't even work with out houses...

[jhadhar65]

>TiSP is crap.

You gotta use that quick dissolving toilet paper like the RV guys.  Just watch out for "buffer overruns".  I hate when that happens.

And it nearly eliminates port sniffing by all but the most persistent!

(Okay, I'm quitting now.)

[PRR]

> You need TiSP!!

Uhh...  "fiber-optic cable strung through your local municipal sewage lines."

There is no municipal sewer in this municipality. We poop in the front yard. Oh, we poop in an indoor toilet and it flows through normal pipes, but it stops 50 feet out in a tank and sand-field.

And no, I don't appreciate your 192KB image, to tell me your bad connection is 10 times better than mine.

OTOH.... OMG, how do you know the Open Hearth?

FWIW: they annoyed us: their website says they take pets, but they don't, and we ended up bunking at TwiLite which is OK for a 1949 motel except their thermostats should not be ON the heaters and their WiFi is weaker than the leakage from the motel next door. Anyhow Open Hearth seems to be closed, and they may not leave the WiFi running over the winter.

[jhadhar65]

Okay, I made my gloating image smaller, but I'm not exactly proud of those numbers.

I wasn't thinking about seasonal issues.  Verizon might be worth looking into unless you're already there, but not AT&T any time soon.



Real Gloating:  My shop begins our little stint of beta with 50Mbps (DOCSIS 3.0) sometime next month.  RG11 got pulled today.  We'll see if it lives up to expectations.

[PRR]

>> The 1946 code book is a hit with the boys.

> My new Maine house is 1981. And there is no Code Officer here. So I will understand what I see, and nobody will look over my shoulder.

Which works both ways.

I have a pump in the well. It comes to a (sticky) pressure switch, then to a $2 box on the wall containing a cheap snap-switch and a screw-in fuse, then off in the direction of the main breaker box.

I ass-umed it was the pump cut-off.

I was puzzled that the switch said "off" but the pump ran. Maybe the switch is stuck. So I took out the fuse.

Well, a couple pump-cycles later, I realized that it was NOT a pump cut-off. I opened the box and found the wires spliced, the switch/fuse not connected at all.

Back in the breaker box the "pump" is a 2-pole breaker and it does kill the pump. However only one of the two poles is wired. I looked around and apparently a small 1/2HP house pump may be 120V. And I believe it is legal, or at least safe, to use a 2-pole breaker for a 1-pole load; just wasteful.

The main breaker is 100A, and with a 500-foot run of not very heavy feeder to the transformer, 100A is probably all I should expect. A 10A load causes just under 1V drop, so a 100A load would be 8V or 9V drop, I can't pull 200A without thousands of bucks of new feeder.

The garage has a 2-pole 60A breaker; he was running a business out there; also the garage was built before the house so its fuse-box may be original (and Hydro may think this is a 60A line).

The main entrance and the garage are wired with #2 ALCAN Al USE. Fat stuff.

The real problem is that the garage sub-feeder runs from the top down to the bottom between the right column of breakers and the neutral bus. So it is dang difficult to work on half the breakers or ANY of the neutrals or grounds.

Yanking that 60A breaker and moving it lower-left would move 2 of 3 fat wires out of the way. But the 3rd wire is still in the way. I'd move that down the neutral bus, but it is in the same clamp as the main feeder neutral. So the only way I can loosen that clamp is to kill the main breaker; otherwise I'd have 240V with floating neutral while I was making the change, and I know what that does to 120V devices.

Oh, and I don't need no 60A to my garage. 20A 240 is ample. But I can't put #2 in a 20A breaker clamp. So I guess I must use 30A or 40A breaker. May just keep the 60A breaker.

May cheat and hang our forthcoming electric stove on the garage breaker. If I had all my tools working while she had every burner cooking, it would trip; aint likely. Probably very illegal.

The conduit from the pole and the conduit to the garage are PVC plastic drain/waste pipe. I know there is a grey pipe Approved For The Purpose. I assume if my feeders overheat, that PVC will collapse, melt, and burn; the grey stuff is probably tougher. But I'm not going to dig it up.

There is no dirt-ground in/near the house. And it is a solid concrete cellar, it could have been a great ground. There is a 90 foot steel-cased well, another solid ground, and no wire to it. AFAICT we are grounded only because the feeder neutral, a steel cable, runs down to an anchor to brace the pole. Oh, and also to a standard dirt-rod by the pole, FWIW.

If you were counting, there are just 3 wires to the sub-panel in the garage. Yup, no separate ground. Any unbalanced 240/120 load induces a few volts in the garage "grounds". And of course concrete conducts better than I do. I guess there could be a dirt-rod there, but the fusebox is hidden behind flake-board and may be recycled from an older house: it would be right at home in the 1946 book.

My handbook does not show USE in Aluminum. The rating for #2 copper USE is just 115 Amps. I wonder if 100A is legal in #2 Al. Ah, but this is Maine, it can't overheat. Right?

[RicharD]

I'll do my best to answer this while my fever is broken.  Yea.... I have the flu.  Readers may want to wash their hands after finishing this post.

The Pump
You probably want a disconnecting means within sight of the pump (or the well) itself.  No real reason for it to have over current protection right there at the disconnect.  Since it's a 1/2 HP 120V motor, a plain old light switch is fine.  It is OK to use 1 side of a 2 pole breaker to feed a 120V load.  In fact, there is a new code that states you are supposed to use 2 pole breakers on multi circuit home runs that are fed with 12/3.  A common example is using a 12/3 to feed the dishwasher & disposal.  Everybody has been doing that for ages.  Now you're supposed to feed that from a 2 pole 20A breaker.  As long as the amperage rating of the breaker does not exceed the amperage rating of the wire, you're fine.  Of course I'm assuming this is #12 wire and a 20A breaker. (ignoring efficiency cuz that's how lazy ass electricians run) 1/2 hp @ 120V = 746 *.5/120 = 3.1A * 125% = 3.9A  heck... put a GFCI receptacle on this circuit too for your weed eater.

Main Service
#2 Alu is rated for 100A on the 90 degree chart.  In Maine, using the 90 degree chart is probably fine, especially for a short up the side of a house to an overhead point of attachment.  Conductors in free air have a much higher ampacity rating.  The utility companies string little bitty aluminum crap all over the place and not loose any sleep over it.  I have no clue how the utility company does things up there, but here is Austin, you have to fill out a forum called an ESPA (electrical service power application).  On this form is a bastardized load calculation.  When doing a 100A to 200A upgrade, & if your numbers jive on this form, the city will provide you with a bigger drop free.  They figure it's worth it since you are buying more electricity.

Panels
>The real problem is that the garage sub-feeder runs from the top down to the bottom between the right column of breakers and the neutral bus. So it is dang difficult to work on half the breakers or ANY of the neutrals or grounds.
Seen it a thousand times.  Why 9 out of 10 electricians appear to have no concept of spacial relationships is beyond me.  I understand double lugging big neutrals when there's no other holes, but that doesn't make it legal, for exactly the situation you're in right now.  You're just gonna hafta turn everything off when you rectify this situation.  For the most part, you're safe just shutting all the loads off as long as you can safely avoid the main lugs.

Another trick to clean up the panel is to set a junction box directly adjacent to it.  Take the large/over-sized garage feeders into it and splice some #6 copper on to reach the breaker.  I'd use Polaris Taps.

This of course does not address the issue of no ground wire to the garage.  Residential sub panels were wired w/o a separate ground well into the 70's IIRC.  I started in the trade in 82 and 4 wire was already required.  Branch circuits to cloths dryers were allowed to be 3 wired up to 93 or 96.  Dryers have a 120V motor and a 240V heating element.  Where the rub lies is that a little bitty 120V motor that decides to burn up can get really really hot on a 30A branch circuit.  Murphy would demand that the hot spot in the connection would be the 0V.  It is possible that the neutral/ground could burn into an open circuit.  Now the chassis of the dryer can be hot meanwhile the adjacent washer is earthed.  Seen it more than once, and it's always a barefooted house wife who finds it.  Murphy again.  I digress....

You say you only need 3000-5000 watts in the garage so it appears there's no appliance, lights and plugs only.  The quick fix is to GFCI protect everything and not even worry about the grounding issue.  That gets you personal protection which ultimately is what counts.  I can't say enough good thangs about GFCI's.  Put them anywhere Murphy might plug something in.  They are the bandage fix to a 2 wire system and really a 3 wire 240V branch circuit isn't all that different from a 2 wire 120V circuit.  Obviously the real fix is to run a ground wire box to box.  Code wise there is leniency allowing the ground to be routed separately from the current carrying conductors.  Ultimately weigh what's hanging off that sub-panel and prioritize accordingly.

(TBC next post)

[RicharD]

Grounding
Grounding is good.  Overkill is encouraged.
If you have a metallic water piping system, bond to that, preferably as close to an earth penetration as possible.
If you have a gas piping system, bond to that as well.  Same deal as water piping.
If you can expose some slab rebar, bond to that.  That's the cat's meow.
You could bury a concrete encased electrode plate (30").
Last and (IMO) least would be to drive a spike or 2.

The Stove
Run some 8/3 w/ ground romex from a 2 pole 50 amp breaker to a 4 wire range receptacle and call it legal eagle.  Leave the garage on the 60 amp breaker. More than you need, but you've already got it.  It'll be a plus if you ever convert your garage into an apartment or wanna pigtail in a welder etc. etc.

-Richard

[PRR]

> I have the flu.  Readers may want to wash their hands after finishing this post.

Get better! And I finally got propane so we can have hot water for hand-washing (Maine well-water is bitter cold).

Your electrical comments printed and digesting. A few points off-point because this is not a city. IIRC the first 100 feet of feeder was free, after that you pay. I'm 400' from the street and 99% sure that feeder is "mine", or maybe after the first pole (there's two on my land). Poles because there is no way to run underground: the first 300 feet are a rocky wetland. However at the second pole the feeder comes down to the meter, then goes underground to the house. If it were naked neutral, that would be a Ground, but it appears to run in PVC drain-pipe.

NO underground metallic pipes! Well-line is plastic, as is sewer, no city-gas, no abandoned wells, no underground metal conduit. In fact my "best" ground after the pole-stay may be the propane tank standing on damp brick.... except there may really be no connection to the electricity.

Pump is 90 feet down. Where you are, water is high and jet-pumps in cellar may be the rule.

> GFCI protect everything and not even worry about the grounding

People are primary. I'm secondarily concerned about lightning-induced surge. For a while in NJ I was replacing a modem every year. That may have been a poor combination of overhead phone and underground electric. Of course even a foundation mat can't take a direct hit without a spike. But for lesser surges, a diversion at the service entrance IMHO helps. (I do here have the phone and power grounds close together.)

> GFCI protect everything

To a point. Glenn had one GFI wired through another GFI, and then the kitchen sink light. When I put the cover on the light switch, the GFIs trip. Not sure what's screwed there. Do know that GFIs shouldn't be cascaded. The to-do list grows.

Polaris Taps http://www.dale-electric.com/detail?itemnumber=IT-4  http://www.dale-electric.com/pdf/page108.pdf  -- IT-1/0 U-turn and IT0-1/0 straight and ISR-1/0 inline? http://www.polarisconnectors.com/PolarisBlackInstallationinstructions.pdf

In Jersey, seeing one wild turkey is a once a year thrill. Here there is a flock of a dozen who pass through our land almost daily.

Couple nights ago I heard an odd noise, a whuffling in the grass and leaves, and in moonlight it looked like a rock which was not there before. When I got a flashlight, it moved away, slow, with an odd shuffle.

Last night I heard a steady rustle, something plowing through the fallen leaves, slow, steady, not alerted when I moved. In moonlight I could see the same dark shape with lighter behind, going under the deck. Unlike most animals which face you and don't like to be cornered, this one turns its back and faces a corner. Flashlight in one hand and flash camera in the other, I got a picture.



We had a groundhog in NJ; but he would run when he saw you. This is similar yet different.

Looking down between deck boards, I saw the nose in one crack and the tail in a crack 17 inches away. Allowing for overhang and not standing perpendicular to the boards, it must be over 20 inches nose to tail. You can't judge a shaggy-beast's weight by the bulk, but I'd bet the beast out-weighs a Corgi, over 20 pounds.

From a tale the former resident told, I had a clue: porcupine.

With the Corgis here, we were concerned about coyote and bear. We planned a fenced dog-yard. But now we are more concerned about the little non-carnivore beasties. A turkey could flap over a fence, be beset by playful Corgis, and be too panicked to flap back over the fence. But they would probably stay clear of dogs. We don't know if porcupines would tunnel under a fence, and porcupines seem fairly unafraid of anything because they can do serious harm to any attacker. A dog can get completely covered in quills, and while there's no deep injury, they hurt, and can lead to infection.

For now, the grrrrls only go out on leash. They seem a little frightened of the woods: so many trees might be too many squirrels to bark at. They do flush mice, but the mice get away and the Corgis can't figure where they went.

More pictures, taken before closing:
http://tinypic.com/a/1c10g/4

Weather is beautiful (similar to NJ/DE but a day later), we are warm and well, we have water again, we got bottle-gas for stove and water heater, we got shiny new washer/dryer and sealed the hole in the floor that the washer drained into. The pump cutoff doesn't, I can't find any building electrical ground, still a popcorn bucket plugging the heating duct, still on 27K dial-up. One thing at a time.

[PRR]

> ever convert your garage into an apartment

Detached garage. This is Maine. It is unreasonable to run water in and sewage back. They would freeze. The lines would have to be deep. True, every third guy here has a backhoe. Still, it would have to be a high-income rental to be worth the expense, and this is a low-income area, with many sub-lets available.

In the vacation areas, there are many houses on summer-only water. Water is run in plastic pipe on the surface of the ground (rocks, ledge, roots). About Oct 15th, the water is turned off, system drained. The Inn at the head of our road is plumbed like that; we once stayed in a cabin where the whole neighborhood had a central water supply which was drained at the end of summer. But we are too far off the tourist highway and scenic vistas to get rich from tourist rentals.

Glenn did break the one house into two apartments. It didn't work out; why he put the house for sale. He got low-lifes who tore the place up, didn't pay, wouldn't leave. He did do a lot of re-plumbing to make two units; he apparently never considered making the garage living space. If that were to happen, the electric would be the least of the work.

[RicharD]

I'll accept my points off and correct my homework.   

It's not like I didn't know your house was in the country.  No doubt the utility would charge you an arm and a leg for a 500' drop.  Do you need more than 100A?  Not unless you've got electric heat or special needs.  A load calc on a house is simple. 

240V
1.  Larger of the 2, heating or ac.  V/A * 125%
2.  Dryer 5000 V/A
3.  Range 8000V/A
4.  Any remaining 240V thangs @ their name plate rating.  If constant duty, then factor at 125%
5.  Sub total.  This is the total V/A for your 240V loads.

120V
1.  3000 V/A small appliances
2.  1500 V/A laundry
3.  1500 V/A each constant duty 120V "fixed" appliance
4.  3 V/A per sq/ft
5.  Sub total
6.  Subtract 3000 V/A,  Multiply the remainder by .35,  Add 3000V/A back in.  This is your  total V/A for your general purpose (120V) loads.

Total Connected Load
Add the 2 calculated  V/A and divide by 240V.  This is your total load.  Typically, you build a service to the next standard size above your calculated load.

The short hand version of that is:
1.  Largest of the 2, heat or AC @ 125%
2.  5KW for everything else
3.  Ttl

You could probably squeak by with 18KW of heat and never have a problem.  Shoot... you probably burn oil for heat.  Ah, it's good info for those playing along at home.

I kinda figured you didn't have any metal piping for grounding.  Slab steel is gonna be your best bet.  Can be a PITA to find and expose, but a good clean connection to rebar pick you up an awful lot of contact with the earth.

Cascading GFCI's can & will nuisance trip.  That switch plate screw causing a ground fault leads me to beileve either the switch is cracked, someone has cheated a ground as a neutral, or a neutral is touching a ground in the box.

Assuming your breaker box is of current production, almost everybody makes a residential TVSS that plugs in like a 240V breaker with a wire going off to the ground bar.  I've never done a lightning rod system.

A garage conversion doesn't necessarily have to be an apartment.  It could be an office, lab, recording studio, work shop, indoor garden...    I'm betting up there it's nice to actually park your car in the garage.  Here we scrape windows maybe 3 times a year.

A fence won't keep all the critter out (you're far too out numbered) but it will keep the Corgis in.  The best defense against scavengers is to limit & control the invitations.  Keep your trash as far away from the house as possible.  Don't leave pet food out.  If you're stuck with piles of crap, stack it outside the fence away from the house.  Critter love to nest in stacks of crap.  Back in Kingsville, a derelict wood pole always equaled a rattle snake nest.



 

[PRR]

> connection to rebar

Assuming there IS any rebar. In Jersey, it is against local custom to put rebar in residential foundations. It's required, but who will know? And the house will never fall down for lack of rebar. BTW, most Jersey basements are damp. Cause and effect? Nah....

I dunno about rebar here (shipping steel Down East is costly, and the foundation IS cracked), but I just found something else I can't find: the J-bolts which hold the sill down to the foundation. I have not pulled all the sill insulation, and there's ways to recess anchors so I could not see them after the house was up. I hope I never find out the house is just sitting un-anchored....


I know the load-calcs (though they are probably packed, so thanks for the handy summary).

--240V--
Dryer 5000 V/A
Range 8000 V/A
= 13,000

--120V--
1000 pump
1600 heating 
1600 Point of use water heater
3000 V/A small appliances
1500 V/A laundry
4500 for 3W/sq/ft 
Sub total = 13,200
Subtract 3000 V/A,  10,000
Multiply the remainder by 0.35, 3,500W
Add 3000V/A back in.  6,500
This is your  total V/A for your general purpose (120V) loads.

13,000 + 6,500= 20,000W
20,000W/240V= 83.3A at 240V

Choices: 30A, 60A (obsolete), 100A, 200A, 400A.

The obvious answer is "100A". Which is what my main breaker is. Even though the previous occupancy was cooking with gas and running a business in the garage, and I'll have just light and tablesaw out there and electric stove in here.

But that's paperwork fiction. I can't cook 5KVA in this small kitchen for more than a few minutes, we'd sweat to death. OTOH the 0.35 diversity factor for small loads is someone else's average, and I might do it all at once (pump, laundry, PoU water heater, fry-pan, spot-heat....).

But the short answer is: even if Hydro would consider replacing my feeder, the numbers as-is don't quite add up, unless I remember more heavy appliances which may all run at once (such as washer, pump, water-heater).

Isn't there another diversity calc for stoves? That nobody runs all burners all the time? Or is that only for multi-occupancy like larger apartment buildings?

We now heat water with propane. But She would rather have electric point-of-use water heaters, and lose the propane altogether. The little $220 undercounter heaters may be great for hand-washing. But I'm starting to wonder about them for bath and laundry. The gas on-demand water-heater manages 2GPH and that takes 120,000BTU! (More than my old home's steam heat!) 120KBTU is ~~~40,000W or 167 Amps at 240V!So electric hot water has to be storage, with enough capacity for a whole load of wash or bodies.

What I have to do is leash the Corgis to a generator. All these new smells under leaves and down holes and up trees, they have boundless energy.

[tubesornothing]

but I just found something else I can't find: the J-bolts which hold the sill down to the foundation.

I had the same with my 1914 house - and I am in the earthquake zone on the west coast (although the big one hasn't hit here yet).  I just hammer drilled some 1/2" holes and put in some expanding anchors.  A few of the walls I converted to shear walls by using a bazillion screws on 5/8" ply.

Looks like you get a fiesty quake there ever 10 years or so...  looks like you are overdue.

[PRR]

> I am in the earthquake zone on the west coast

Your quakes are very different from eastern quakes. The whole Pacific rim is ripping. You have fault lines. We just have faults, small, random, helter-skelter.

http://www.maine.gov/doc/nrimc/mgs/explore/hazards/quake/quake-faq.htm

"...this means that there is a 98% probability that the largest earthquake to affect Maine during a 50 year period will be less than [...] Mercalli Intensity VIII [...] the lowest level at which significant earthquake damage is expected, [...]the probability of a damaging earthquake in Maine is small."

A 1904 quake toppled a few chimneys but no damage to structures or people. A few years ago there was a series of mag 3-4 quakes in Frenchman's Bay (17 miles away) which were felt, and caused a rockslide in the park, but that park is all rocks piled high and they sometimes slide for no reason.

The risk here is a shade higher than in Jersey. NJ has quakes: in 48 years there were several which were felt, but none near me, and only one where I knew somebody who felt it. The only damage was the next state over, an awning fell off. If I live 50 years and get to feel a cup-rattler, I'm happy.

"...during each millennium Maine can expect ... one magnitude 6.5 earthquake."

Yeah, a 6.5 would be unhappy, but odds are low.

And the likely magnitudes -can- be ridden-out by a house just sitting on the foundation. <0.08G is less than the friction of wood on concrete.

[Frankenamp]

Electric point-source water heaters are crap. Only exceptions are the Insta-Hot 190* taps for coffee, tea, & cuppa noodles. (miniature unpressurized tank heater) I had the pleasure of replacing several of those point-source heaters with small tanks at work because even with a 240V feed, they can't heat water more than barely lukewarm in sunny Kahlee-forrnyah. I imagine in your neck of the woods, it'll raise it from blistering cold (sub 40*) to an invigorating slap-in-the-face-cold (~60*) Great for those mornings when the Mister Coffee timer didn't click on... The gas instant heaters are freaking great if you can get a European model. I saw one in Marsielle France that really impressed me years ago (and I ain't seen nuttin' like it to this day) turn on the hot tap- the heater on the wall above the sink went "whoosh" as the gas auto-ignited- and in about two seconds I burnt the $hi! outta my hands! (assuming it was a wimpy American unit) I have heard Home Despot advertizing Renai 'tankless' water heaters maybe they might work - but I havent seen one up close- and I'm not recommending anything I haven't seen work myself.

If they're aren't any foundation bolts, I would recommend you whipping out the old Milwaukee or Hilti and sinking a 1/2" lag screw every 4 feet or so 'bout 6" long or so... I hope the big one don't hit until I move out of the POS I rent and into a proper house... The flat-top I live in shares the same floor plan as a trailer just made outta stucco instead of steel. Termite dust all over the garage- and the landlord told me if the quake ever happened: kick over the water heater it it's still standing, get my shi-stuff out, and torch the thing. yeah right- that's assuming the bug-eaten ceiling joists haven't come crashing down around my precious ears. It was built the same time I was, and 49 years later, I'm in much better shape than the house- faht bahs-taard that I am.

Your diggs have plenty of potential on the inside The wood work looks nice (enjoyed the pics) nothing a little paint and Kilz primer won't fix... and a little siding & yer set! Congrats!

[Frankenamp]

> I am in the earthquake zone on the west coast

Your quakes are very different from eastern quakes. The whole Pacific rim is ripping. You have fault lines. We just have faults, small, random, helter-skelter. ...

Yeah, a 6.5 would be unhappy, but odds are low.

And the likely magnitudes -can- be ridden-out by a house just sitting on the foundation. <0.08G is less than the friction of wood on concrete.

Too true: I was yakking at a customer over by the cell phone display at the Radio Shack located @ 19th & Broadway in lovely downtown Oakland Ca. directly over the BART station. My first thought was that there had been a train wreck in the underground station- that was what it sounded like at first... then the building started swaying like a ship at sea (no problem, been there done that not so bad) Then, someone fired up the mutha of all jackhammers on the roof (as the whole building started bouncing vertically like a rabid pogo stick on meth)... that was about the time my lizard brain tripped the fight or flight instinct- and my intellect was attempting to inform my feet that running toward a glass door in a plate glass storefront was not the smartest thing to do- 5 million years of running from big scary things trumps sweet reason every time. And was immediately thankful that I was not in the Kaiser office building on the next block- three or five stories full of about fifty casement windows made quite a mess all over the street. That was about 5:08 PM.

And the best is yet to come- sitting near two faults that are both 30+ years past their usual "tectonic adjustments". I get my cups rattled once or twice a year... and barely notice it.

[RicharD]

>I dunno about rebar here
Ground plates are mandated here instead of ground rods.  Prolly because here you hit rock and end up with a 4' rod.  Pates are more expensive, but you can usually dig 30" here.  My yard goes from about 4" to > 3'.  I'm on a sloped rock.


>But that's paperwork fiction.
That number is your estimated "peak demand".  The likelihood of you ever reaching that load are slim, especially with no HVAC.  It's a design parameter to ensure your supply is ample.  I'd bet your house idles at a mere 3 to 4KW and maybe....MAYBE you'd peak at 10KW if you have a house full of people cooking and doing laundry with all the lights on and the stereo blaring.

>Isn't there another diversity calc for stoves?
8Kw is the "I don't know" number used in lieu of the actual name plate rating.  Remember that wiring is all about ample supply with appropriate sized over current protection.  I think a typical stove element is 2KW and an oven is 3KW, your mileage may vary.  You are allowed to diversify for multiple stoves and ovens.  You can even hang them off the same branch circuit (which I wouldn't do).  It's not a number I use very often so I can't pull that one out of my hat.

>But She would rather have electric point-of-use water heaters...
The little bitty ones are fine for a sink.  Not good enough for a dishwasher.  Would spoil a shower.  99 out of 100 tankless water heaters I see are gas.  Storage type electric supplies the best hot water but electrically isn't efficient due to idle hours.  There are 2 thangs to do to optimize this.  1st is a circulation pump.  This not only get you hot water almost immediately at every tap, but increases efficiency because the circulation tends to decrease temperature fluctuation.  The big saver is a time clock.   Shut that thang off for a few hours every night.... although now I'm thinking about pipes freezing.  I'm glad I'm not a plumber.

>they have boundless energy.
My poor dog Jimmy is 13 and isn't very active anymore.  He's a black Border Collie mutt who doesn't have a mean bone in his body.  We got him when the girls were toddlers.... 2 & 5.  He can still muster up the energy for an escape now and then.  He's not a bolter, he just quietly walks out the open door.  Fortunately he always goes up to visit his girl friend 1/2 a block away.

 

[Fresh_Start]

I hope I never find out the house is just sitting un-anchored....

Why?  You might just want to pick it up one day and move it.  Moving whole houses seems to be a tradition in Maine.  Never saw it anywhere else. 

My mother's house in Arundel, ME is made up of what were originally four different buildings.  First, there's the 4-up/4-down central hallway & staircase house built in the 1770s.  Sometime later, a smaller building of possibly older vintage was shoved up next to the dining room to make a "new" kitchen.  A hole was cut through the walls to make a doorway.  I saw the clapboards facing each other inside the wall(s) when we re-did the kitchen in 1977.  A third, smaller building was shoved up against the building the kitchen is in later.  Then there were multiple, poorly conceived and badly executed "additions" and "improvements", one of which was to connect this daisy chain of old buildings to the original barn.  That's now the garage. 

If you think you're confused, have pity on the carpenter/contractor who had to demolish the third, smaller building due to rot without having everything around it fall down too. He thought he was going to "put in a propaah foundation".  The only problem was a rock roughly the size and shape of a humpback whale under the floorboards - about 3" under the floorboards in places.  Some of the new floor joists had to be contoured around the rock.

PRR - just wait until the corgis need to go outside when there's a foot of fresh powder snow   Mom's corgi is almost 15 now, and she still doesn't like snow much.  It's pretty funny watching her trying to hop through a snowdrift.

Porky the Porcupine probably does not live alone.  If he's under your deck, he's probably living under your house or some structure close by.  The dogs will try to attack him eventually, if only in play.  He has no sense of humor.  My father once made me help him try to remove about 10 quills from a dog's nose/face/mouth.  Cutting the quill in half does release the barbs a bit, but it was not a good experience for Chip or the dog. 

One last thought: propane is good.  Especially for the cooking stove.  Electricity is not always available, and when it goes out it can stay out for days.  All those overhead lines and ice storms are a bad combination.  Put the geniuses at CMP in the mix and you get frequent blackouts.  Trust me on this.  The cousins of the Time/Warner people work at CMP.  Your wife will thank you when the power goes out and she can still cook something.

Stay warm!

Chip

[PRR]

> I'd bet your house idles at a mere 3 to 4KW

I have a clamp-on ammeter for my Fluke. I poked it at the feeders but:
A) they are so snarled I can hardly get on
B) the readings aren't making sense yet.

This is after I figgered out how to use it. Fluke must be on Current, AC (duh), and multiply by 1,000.

As a simple test, I clamped the circuit I was working on.

Good thing I did too. While trying to jimmy the clamp-on into the snarl, I noticed that the circuit wire was loose in the screw. Loose! It took a full turn to hit the wire. I dunno why the lights and washer worked at all. I guess the snarl was holding the end of the wire in contact. Ought to check all the rest.

1.6mA (1.6 Amps) seemed about right. I turned off a 93 Watt lamp, and it dropped 0.8mA, right about right. I turned off all the lights to quit, went to get the Fluke, and noticed 0.11mA (0.11A). Dozen Watts! Vampire load! Washing machine has a CPU in it, maybe it never sleeps? Too tired to unplug it. So I'm trudging upstairs, and it hits me: the whole reason I was working on that circuit was to add an outlet for the internet router. Yup, the router wart is rated 12V 0.5A, and with losses and odd waveforms, that could be 13W to the Fluke. (Or the washer may be sucking another few watts.)

There's some unworkmanlike wiring here. One box joins five cables, with as little as an inch of cable inside the box. I can't see how he got his fingers in there to turn the wirenuts. There's a old-skool fluorescent lamp with insulation above, cheap dropped-ceiling all around, and no junction box nor hole-clamp, just spliced between the raw hole and the insulation.

I may get cable-modem Saturday. Or I may get another reason why Time-Warner is a bunch of dweebs.

I may get a plumber to look at the well the same day. (The cap is off and leaking grit and crap.) I found a semi-hidden splice in the well-pump wires. This explains why they are one color at the switch and another color at the wellhead. When he "finished" the basement, he framed a 10" space between foundation wall and finish wall. There is a splice-box for the well-wires in that space. I can see it, I can even fit in the space, but I can't bend-down nor work a screwdriver. I'm gonna hafta bust through the drywall to access the box, move it to an accessible location, and stretch the wires. Someday.

Part of the problem with the well is that they ran the snowplow over it. There's a better path but it had a basketball hoop/pole in the way. I thought we could yank the top of the pole and lever it out, but broke the pipe instead. I dug down 2 feet and rocked it, but it wasn't coming out. How much concrete did he use for a lousy basketball net? (It isn't like a regulation Bball court: 15 feet of rocky sand.)

Old car jack, tow-rope, cribbing. It was a strain for this good jack, over 1,000 pounds. Popped it, hoisted 2 feet, filled under, re-set the rope, hoisted again. At this point it is resting on bricks, and ready to be let-down onto the firewood.



Laid down, removed cribbing, and rolled the pole-stump out to the woods.

[tablewine]

I bought a fixer upper like this. (Not such a nice lot though) This thread is inspiring. Time to get out there and get it done! (with the 'one step at a time' admonition in mind)

[PRR]

After four weeks, BAM!!

An actual tech showed up, knew his stuff, recognized that I know stuff, and got TV, innernet, and phone hooked in an hour. Download speeds are (so far) three times faster than Verizon DSL was. YouTube HD videos download faster than they play. This thread loads in 2 seconds, complete with the screen-grabs and porkypine images which I whined about on 27K dial-up.

Time-Warner is still a nest of clueless dorks, but the guy they sent (surely a subcontractor, he had a kiddie-seat in the van) was great.

Now I can get my email. I have pictures of a cracked ceiling in my INbox which were just hopeless on dial-up.

[RicharD]

As a rule of thumb, Time Wiener has to make at least 3 trips out before they stop sending out bottom feeders.  I had to throw a telephone tantrum to get a real tech out to my house.  The sad part is I had already diagnosed the problem.  My connectivity was always substandard.  When it'd rain, I'd lose TV, telephone, and internet.  Fairly safe to say the underground feeder was compromised.  When I did finally get a real tech out complete with an actual meter, he plugged in at the modem and said, "Your signal is weak, it's the branch wiring."  I'm like, "NO go plug in at the source."  He did and subsequently agreed it was their underground wire.  Of course then he said, "I'll schedule a crew to come out and replace the feeder."  I'm like, "NO I have a roll of RG11/U, you terminate, I'll bury."  The fact that I had RG11/U and not RG6 got his attention.  He agreed and when it was all said and done, he couldn't measure any loss between my modem and the splice box.  Haven't had a problem since.  It's always baffled me how they can get away with directly burying plain ol RG6 when it's not listed for direct burial.     

[PRR]

> a really serious issue for any Time Warner/Road Runner running the SMC8014 router

No, Scientific Atlanta 2203c

Looking on geek forums, this is a semi-despised box. However it has telephone, which seemed like a good idea at the time. The tech (not a bottom-feeder; I guess they keep those guys in Butter's area) had no objection to connecting to my router. One glitch with (some?) 2203C is that if you disconnect a computer it has to be reset; the router can stay connected and soothe the modem.

There's also a battery compartment. Apparently for $9.95 I can get 4 hours of phone when the lights are out. Of course if the whole street is dark, the pole-boxes will be dead, so a live modem is little use in a broad blackout.

The TV is OK too. We are getting Dexter, which we don't think we ordered. Maybe that's a 1-day special, maybe they goofed the order. WhatEVER. The key thing was getting the boxes onsite and wired. Service-level choices can be done without a visit.

[DummyLoad]

Scientific Atlantacisco 2203c

[tubesornothing]

Congratulations, welcome back!

[PRR]

> Grounding is good.

My ignorance is showing.

Every house I had, the meter and the fusebox were back-to-back. I treated them as "one thing" for electrical purposes.

Here the meter is on a pole 75 feet away from the fusebox.

My new utility says "Grounding wires run from your meter to underground rods or to copper water pipes", and advises you to have this inspected every 10 years. Nothing about a ground at the fusebox.

Is the ground 75 feet away "proper"? "Good enough"? FWIW, it looks OK (#8 stranded copper going into dirt, no evidence that it has been disturbed; I guess I should put a trowel in and inspect the clamp on the assumed rod).

-------------

The fusebox is Westinghouse and says to use only Bryant breakers.
http://i37.tinypic.com/14ljzn9.jpg

There are Bryant, Siemens and Square-D breakers in it. The Square-D are HOM series, and the HOM catalog claims these are "industry standard 1" breakers". And they are super-available at Lowe/Depo. Can I use HOM breakers?

(At work we had the notorious Federal Pacific panels, so I'm a wee bit leery.)

Elsewhere, Bangor Hydro specifically warns against common neutral/ground anywhere except at the main panel, banning my garage connection. It crossed my mind that I could re-rig as 120V... I need 20A+20A, so a 40A 1-pole breaker would do. Neutral-drop would be insignificant in 30 feet of #2 wire. Then I could mark a white and a green wire, and do it up right. Just seems a shame to give-up the possibility of feeding a 240V load, as unlikely as I think that is. (I had one before, and had a welder, but never actually used it. I limped the welder on 120V 30A and was able to prove that I've lost all my welding skill, gave up.)

[PRR]

"3-J SERVICE DROP The Company will provide the Service Drop and associated hardware and equipment at no charge to the Customer up to, but not including, the first service pole.  Costs for all poles and for wires beyond the first service pole will be the responsibility of the Customer."

OK, it is theirs up to but not including the pole about 100' onto my land from the street. I own two poles and 400' of wire.

A hyper-rough guess of the cost of a new line installed is over $5,000.... ballpark right? Plus "conditions": that first pole is off the driveway in the wetland. I dunno why it is there, or what that would add to the labor. The run from first to second pole is very long, needs a strong comealong, brutal.

[RicharD]

Siemens, Bryant & Westinghouse are all (or were) the same company.  Pretty much interchangeable.  I think Homelines fit too. IIRC, the Square D Homeline stuff (which came out fairly recently) is compatible.  Somewhere in this mix, there's a jack-leg rig where you file off part of the catch notch on a breaker to make it fit.  I think that might be forcing a homeline into a GE load center or vice versa.  Something I've seen a few times.  Pop out that homeline breaker and see if it's been field modified.  I'm 99% certain Homelines fit.

I would shy away from converting your garage panel to a 120V panel.  That's just not done, sorta like using a 3 phase panel with a single phase feeder.

I would think the utility company would charge you at least 5K$ for a new drop.  I still contend 100 Amps is plenty.  The ground wire on the pole should go all the way to the bottom of the pole then wrap around the base a bunch of times.  I would suspect it was installed by the utility co and done right.

Those old Federal load centers can get real intense real quick simply by removing the dead front.  Those breakers either want to just fall out, or refuse to come out at all.  Awful bus bars.  Dangerous to work on + the breaker trip point tends to increase with age, ie. they fail to trip and may stay closed even when you hit the switch.  Most other breakers fail open when they die.

[drew]

PRR, how far are you from passable Mexican food?

[Fresh_Start]

PRR, how far are you from passable Mexican food?

You're joking right?

My daughter was raised here in Richmond and ordered "BBQ Chicken" at a restaurant in Maine.  I tried to wave her off but she ignored me.  She was not happy with the rubber chicken smeared with watery ketchup.

Lobster is good though! 

Then again, there could be some good Mexican food right around the corner depending on which hippies wandered by when.  There is a good Mexican place down on the waterfront in Portland.

Chip

[PRR]

> how far are you from passable Mexican food?

Why do you ask? Are you coming up, ONLY if I can show you good Mex?

> ordered "BBQ Chicken" at a restaurant in Maine.  I tried to wave her off

We been in Jersey a while. Even bad Italian there meets a certain standard, and the better joints are very good. We went into **** ****, a VERY popular pizza and beer joint here, and were extremely underwhelmed with the pizza. Wholesome and utterly bland.

That may be the local preference: the supermarkets stock tons of white bread, or for something exciting, white bread with a little oatmeal flavor. If they have rye, it is whitebread in rye shape and a hint of rye flavor. No Real Rye, no Portuguese Rolls, no honest Italian Loaves, no bread with taste or tooth.

But that's the mainland. Go over onto the Island, and it is a different world, spotty, but at its best more cosmopolitan than Bound Brook or inner Boston or Oakland. It is a tourist town, with some very well-heeled tourists, which can support (marginally) a good cook. As Fresh says: depends who wandered through and decided to settle.

The best food I ever had was at George's. He retired, and his protege hasn't the same knack. There's a gal in a shack by the lumberyard makes real mouthful sandwiches, when she's open.

I can think of two Mex joints, but have never stopped in. Come up and we'll go.

[RicharD]

I would expect a shortage of Mexican food, but the compromise is fresh seafood.  Like the opposite side of the coin from here where one can get awesome tacos out of the back of a station wagon at most any construction site, OTOH I have to drive 4 - 8 hours to get to the gulf for fresh seafood.  Yesterday, I had lunch hat SRV's flavorite restaurant, Sam's.