Recommendations on next amp build for a novice

[simonallaway]

Good morning all,

I'm really close on finishing my first ever amp build. I chose the AX84 P1eX. It's all going very well and the amp bug has officially bitten. All along the way I've been reading threads here with great interest and I am learning lots (in fact, too much to digest).

I'd like to build a traditional Fender (I already have a Marshall 2204 and this P1eX probably wont sound like either), but I don't know what to choose. I love Mark Knopfler's late 70's tone which as far as I know was "traditional" Fender plus spring reverb, not too much distortion, but enough overdrive to provide a bit of sustain and "life". Tremolo would be cool too (eventually).

So with that in mind, what model/schematic would you recommend I build next?

regards,

Simon

[tubenit]

If you want traditional Fender with spring reverb and tremolo & you build it ........ you won't be a novice anymore.   

Princeton Reverb or Deluxe Reverb perhaps.  Maybe use 5881's. If you didn't need tremolo, Sluckey has got a great schematic and layout already done.

With respect, Tubenit

[simonallaway]

If you want traditional Fender with spring reverb and tremolo & you build it ........ you won't be a novice anymore.   

Hmmm. Point taken. Perhaps I should try something less ambitious? I was actually looking at those two, and it seems the Princeton Reverb is a little more simple.

But, and here's an observation that probably betrays my inexperience, it seems there are plenty of Fender schematics designed over the years, but they seem to converge on the AB763...is that a gross over-simplification?

[tyru007]

If everything come out OK with your P1eX, then I would think a Fender Princeton Reverb would not be too difficult for you.  Lots of info and pics of builds out there.  Like you, I just finished a couple single ended builds and I am starting a Princeton reverb as my next build.  I choose it over the deluxe reverb to get a little more clean headroom although sluckeys single channel tweed reverb is really tempting.  Good luck with your next build.

[tubesornothing]

AB763 super is great.  If you did a p1 extreme, you should not really have much of a problem with a super.  You can buy straight up kits of them if you like, or by pieces here and there.

That being said - what do you want?  Perhaps go to a music store and try out a few amps (either vintage or the re-issues) and see what you like and dont like.

[Joe6v6]

here's an observation that probably betrays my inexperience, it seems there are plenty of Fender schematics designed over the years, but they seem to converge on the AB763...is that a gross over-simplification?

Yes and No - Yes there are more than a few Fender amps that use the AB763 as a base platform but there are many more than that that dont.
Its no suprise that youve been bitten by the amp bug but befor you move on to your next amp you should get the first one working. Although the P1x a pretty simple amp and a good choice for a first build those first builds have a tendancy to teach us more than we first imiagned. Let us know how it goes.
I seem to remember Knopfler using a Twin reverb or a Vibrolux either way as Tubnit implied it would be quite a more involved undertaking than the P1.    ..     Joe

[simonallaway]

AB763 super is great.  If you did a p1 extreme, you should not really have much of a problem with a super.

If everything come out OK with your P1eX, then I would think a Fender Princeton Reverb would not be too difficult for you.

Both great ideas, but I think my problem is that my playing life has been so Marshall-biased (no pun intended) that I seriously do not know what Fender amps are like to play. I know, I know     My only reference is Mark Knopfler's tone, or perhaps even post-60's Clapton.

So I agree. I need to try out a few amps, so I may just see if I can find what I want at my local Guitar Center. It's the only place around here that would have a variety of amps.

And thanks for the reassurances on the skill level required  

[simonallaway]

but before you move on to your next amp you should get the first one working. Although the P1x a pretty simple amp and a good choice for a first build those first builds have a tendency to teach us more than we first imagined. Let us know how it goes.

No argument there. I hope to begin to power it up within a couple of weeks  I am taking it slow to minimize mistakes.

Progress so far: http://hotbottles.wordpress.com

[tubesornothing]

You soldering, lead dress and assembly skills look good.  It looks like you are well organized and follow the instructions for the P1 well.  You will not have any problem with any kind of fender.

[Shrapnel]

Ah,

my FIRST valve/tube build was a gut of a Davis 201-A model PA head. I gutted it, rebuilt the preamp using just a schematic of a Marshall "Master Volume" and revised the original PI a bit (same style, "split load" cathodyne, just added a part or two for the bias, and wired the PA section like it was (other than hacking and revising the speaker output connections (taping off the more PA type 25v &70v connections.)) This was all point-to-point too. Some would say that this was too complex for a first build, but it worked for me. I later modified a Laney AOR 50MV (and 412-straight, HH loaded, cab) that I obtained in a trade for a Lab Series L7 410 and some cash. And now I'm tackling a 2-channel monster. Almost done, but it's taken me a while due to time. (AND I still need to obtain a cab for THAT chassis.)

My advice is: after working on AND FINISHING that P1-eX to the point it works and sounds like it's supposed to, examine the schematics in question for the amps you are thinking of building, and the layouts as well if available. Eliminate those that you find way too hard to follow after studying them. You'll probably learn more with one that is at least a little more complicated than the one you've finished. Don't be afraid to ask pointed and specific questions to help weed out the rest and finalize your choice. Focus on those that the voicing is where you'd like to go (as you already have) and avoid those that don't, unless you feel in the mood to modify (and test) the design. (A good idea if you go this route is to run the modified schematic by all of us here to review for faults.) Going by a specific artist/player isn't a bad way to choose either, as long as you know you might not hit the exact tone of their equipment.

Hopefully I wasn't too confusing in my reply. (If I was, let me know where, and I'll try to clarify that area.)

[simonallaway]

You soldering, lead dress and assembly skills look good.  It looks like you are well organized and follow the instructions for the P1 well.  You will not have any problem with any kind of fender.

Thank you. It's kind of you to say so.

My advice is: after working on AND FINISHING that P1-eX to the point it works and sounds like it's supposed to, examine the schematics in question for the amps you are thinking of building, and the layouts as well if available. Eliminate those that you find way too hard to follow after studying them. You'll probably learn more with one that is at least a little more complicated than the one you've finished.

I am almost hoping that my P1eX won't work the first time I power it up. I'd almost prefer to debug an issue, rather than have it work and not learn anything. I've been writing software for almost 15 years and that has shown me that the best way to learn is when things are broken :)

I will follow everyone's advice and do lots and lots of research on different schematics. I want to know the differences between different amps, and how they've evolved over the years, so studying schematics will teach me more than I can imagine. It might lead to modifications for the P1eX, and it'll certainly help choose the next project.

Thanks everyone.

[tommytornado]

I don't know if you're wanting to do your build from scratch or go with a kit?  If kit, allenamps.com has several models available as a kit that will get you the Knofler sound (fender black face era):

 http://allenamps.com/sweetspot.php  (princton based model w/a beefy deluxe reverb OT, can be set up with 6L6's for 25-30watts)

 http://allenamps.com/encore.php  (vibrolux based model  30-35w reverb and bias vary trem)

  http://allenamps.com/oldflame.php  (super reverb based model  40-45w, 3 knob reverb.. no trem.  I have one of these and love it)

I know the kits are expensive, but the documentation/instructions that come with these kits is very detailed.   

[simonallaway]

I don't know if you're wanting to do your build from scratch or go with a kit?   

I definitely want to build from scratch. I can't see it being even slightly satisfying to build from a kit. Every aspect of the P1eX project so far has been very interesting. Including sourcing/ordering parts, drilling ridiculous amounts of holes in the chassis, and making way too many trips to Ace hardware for fasteners. I realise that I won't save much money doing it all myself, but I'll learn loads. 20 years ago I had the guitar building bug...and managed to make some good money on the side building 20 or so guitars. This new amp addiction has made me feel 20 yrs younger 

Thanks for that link, I had never seen their amps before. Nice looking replicas. Do you own one yourself?

[tommytornado]

My first build was an Allen Old Flame kit.  It's my go to loud black face style amp. 

[Shrapnel]

My advice is: after working on AND FINISHING that P1-eX to the point it works and sounds like it's supposed to, examine the schematics in question for the amps you are thinking of building, and the layouts as well if available. Eliminate those that you find way too hard to follow after studying them. You'll probably learn more with one that is at least a little more complicated than the one you've finished.

I am almost hoping that my P1eX won't work the first time I power it up. I'd almost prefer to debug an issue, rather than have it work and not learn anything. I've been writing software for almost 15 years and that has shown me that the best way to learn is when things are broken :)

Fortunately, unlike the world of computer programming, schematics have less variation in "writing" one up, vs all the "fun" you have experienced maintaining someone else's code or updating code from one "style" or language into another. (Assuming in-house, PD, or other completely free to use code.)

If it works the first time (like my first did) great, but since I had recycled most of the parts from the original PA amp, I did have some leaky (disc) coupling caps between the PI and the PA, I later found them and replaced them as I was working on minimizing the "blue" glow inside the EL84/6BQ5 tubes. Troubleshooting is indeed a great teacher, just like explaining your computer code to a colleague that is broke, and in the process discovering your error. I prefer NOT to have any errors myself, but when they do, it is good experience on finding and fixing them, especially when it leads to avoiding a mistake in the future  (or finding similar mistakes will become easier, hopefully at least.)

It sounds as if you got a plan now though. Keep it up. 

[Madison]

If you can live without reverb, how about a 5E3 or a AA763?
IMHO it would be the next logical, conservative step with minimal troubleshooting.

[simonallaway]

The 5E3 is definitely on the list as it would expose me to push-pull. And as you said it's a logical step and the circuit is still simple.

And AA763 too, but I'm not seeing any fundamental differences between that and the AB763 circuit. I see a 1.5k resister on the control grid of the 6L6GCs (something to do with voltage division?), and different plate resistors on the phase inverter but nothing else.

Do these differences amount to anything tonally significant?

[tubenit]

From what I have seen of the quality of your work from the photos, I wouldn't be bashful about taking on a reasonably intensive build like a AB763 (if that's what you're wanting) with or without tremolo.  My guess is that you will be successful with it.  If you're thinking traditional fender such as a blackface fender ....... the 5E3 isn't that tone.

With respect, Tubenit

[simonallaway]

Thank you for the encouragement, Tubenit!

I think AB763 will be the way to go for me, if 5E3 won't give the basis of tone that I want. I don't need lots of power, so perhaps the Deluxe Reverb is the way to go.

I must put all this aside and finish my P1 

Thanks to everyone for all the input.