Building Amps and Selling them on E-bay??

[Platefire]

I am planning or retiring soon and I was wondering about the possibility of suplementing my income by making amps and selling them on e-bay. From what I see there are a million amp builders out there already selling stuff. I was kind of thinking about building another 5E3 Head like I made for Randy Miller Last year(shown below) and if it sold pretty quick with decent profit--make another-and another. Somebody had experiance and advice about this? Platefire

[jhadhar65]

There's a time and place for everything, and selling one of your custom built amps on ebay is no exception to that.  Still, though, I think you're better off overall trying to peddle your wares locally.  Hooking up with a local music store that will allow you to display your amp(s) in their store will sell more amps at a better profit for you in the long run than ebay will.  The music store route can allow you to establish a name and reputation among a group of players, which will be hard to do on ebay.  It will also allow potential customers to subjectively determine the tone and quality of your amps because they can feel the knobs, smell the lacquer, and "touch" the sounds.  Ebay customers can't do that, even with pictures and sound clips.

My advise is start with one music store - preferably a mom-n-pop shop.  If you have a relationship with them already or have been a regular customer of theirs in the past, mores the better.  Offer them a decent profit mark up and keep your price point as low as you can.  You can always slowly raise your prices as your amps sell until you reach an ideal a better profit margin.  You just want a few people to walk out with one that will come back to the store later and talk about it.

If you're a good enough player - or know one - you could stop by and ask the owner if you could bring one of your amps around and demo it for him and his employees.  They'll be able to try it themselves and you'll be able to showcase what the amp's really good at.  The last one of these I did, I let the store employees be my "demo" players and I teched the amp.  I knew they were all good players before I decided to do it that way.  I would suggest to the guitar player to try some blues or classic rock or whatever, and I would dial in the amp for that sound.  The employees dug the amps, as well as the store owner and even the customers walking in the door during the demo.  Be careful about letting customers be the player since you never know what you'll get with them.  They can play it, of course, but only at the point after which it's obvious the demo portion is over.

Once the store agrees to carry you, you'll want to stop by frequently enough so that the employees remember what you look like, but not so often that they feel you're a vulture waiting for the sale to be made.  People are poor these days and it may take a while to make a sale.  If you can afford the overhead, try amps at more than one store at the same time.  Be aware that if you work out a deal with Banjo Center - and you can do this - your amp will get played A LOT.  It will get played and kicked and played and mishandled and played and bumped and played and...  I would only take an amp there that I purposely built to withstand the rigors of the road... not an armchair amp with glossy natural wood finish.  The Banjo Center amp will probably sell faster than the others if it doesn't break first.

Here's the most important part - BE ACCESSIBLE.  If there's a question or an issue with one of your display amps, the store personnel will need to get in touch with you about it pronto - no voicemail.  Also, figure out what support-after-the-sale you are willing to provide and let the music store know up front.  Using the store as the customer's first level POC for warranty work might not appeal to them.

This is what works for me, I only do things at my own pace, and I expect to make more fun than money.  I'd be interested to eventually hear what works for you in the end.  Good luck with it and have fun no matter what your approach is.

[Platefire]

I've always done it also last 10 years just for fun at my own pace and mostly made amps for myself with a few exceptions. Thanks for sharing your experiance and insight on building and selling. Don't know of any mom and pop stores around here. A lot of the old stores of years ago have closed. It would be nice to finally make some money off some of the experiance I've gained on amp building but I've never been much of a salesman. What I was thinking of doing was just to build one---try to sell locally and maybe even on e-bay too. If it sells, proceed with another one or two. Start small with the hope of building up. I'm pretty well known as a player in this rural area. Only thing is most local players I know don't have an appreciation for point to point tube type amps like I do. If they do use tubes its some commercial PCB board brand name amp. I can demo my own amp, no problem. The issue is will the buyer be willing to pay for all the extra labor that goes into one of these amps as hand built point to point/turret board classic circuit design. That's where I would need to become a salesmen, stating the advantage of future maint with the old design along with the classic tone. Platefire

[drew]

One thing to think about is that there is a small, but still appreciable, chance that you'd sell an amp to someone, and then something awful would happen -- a kid gets burned or shocked, a house burns down, whatever, and you end up getting sued.  You should probably assume that the personal liability insurance portion of your homeowners or renters insurance coverage isn't going to cover you for a claim arising from this little business of yours selling what amount to reproductions of obsolete electrical devices which wouldn't be considered "safe" by modern standards.  I don't know if it would even be possible to buy a policy that would cover you for selling non-UL approved gear.

Whether you'd be comfortable with this risk is probably going to depend on whether you have significant assets, whether you have dependents, the laws where you reside, your own personal attitude toward risk-taking, and other factors.  I remember seeing a post by the guy that goes by "S2" on some of the other amp forums a few years ago; some lawyer he talked to had basically scared the hell out of him about this stuff.

So you might want to at least talk to someone in your neck of the woods that can advise you, and understand what you might be getting yourself into.

[Platefire]

Well I could do like the doctors office and have everyone sign a release form releaving me of all resposibility.

There is a .5% chance that by playing this amp that a tree could fall on you, a snake could come out of it and bite you, you could be branded by hot tubes, the glue from the tolex will absorb though your skin and you'll become a warewolf, your wife will be offended when you turn it up loud or at the end of your life you will eventually die!!! I acknowledge that life is tuff, take full resposibility for my actions and waive any accountability to the builder of this amp.

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[Shrapnel]

There IS another way to protect your personal assets: Incorporate, or get an LLC (Spouse as partner/associate, unless you got a good friend willing to jump in.) Only hassle there is the "meetings"  that must take place, and all the other fun legal stuff  :shocked: involved with that. Guess that one may be more drastic and more work  though for only a part-time, low production (on demand, sort of) sales... perhaps too much work and money for that level of work... but it is a way

[Platefire]

Yeah, nothing is simple anymore! 

[tubesornothing]

Hey Plate, just go for it.  If you want to find out the likelyhood of getting your ass sued - take a look at Dr Z, 65 Amps, Divided by 13, etc.  None are UL certified.  10s of thousands of amps sold and no lawsuits there either.  It **could** happen, but the likelyhood is very small.  In my neck of the woods, directors for corporations can get sued, so that offers no protection.  So I say F88K it, and give er a go anyways.

BTW, you **can** get UL certification for your amps.  But it costs $$$.  Me, I don't bother.  I just follow what the big guys do in their reproduction amps, good grounding, over voltage and over curretn protection, warning labels etc.

I think both the ebay idea and the store idea are sound. Give 'em a shot.  I have been trying locally through well known musicians, then working word of mouth. Also using Craigslist and such.  I am going to link up with a store soon, they take 25-35% though (ouch!).

Another avenue might be to take on repairs, and try to upsell guys to buy one of your amps. 

Also consider advertising in one of the amp mags.  $400 add will get a lot of people looking at your web site.

[Platefire]

Yeah, really! I've already got funds set aside to build #1 & #2. I've always heard that a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step---well my first step is just build one and sell it. While I'm building my first amp I will be thinking of ways to streamline production so if it goes good like I hope it will, I may need to have several in production at one time.

I like the idea also of doing repairs--but what do I do if I get solid state, or hybred or pcb tube amps.
I feel perfectly comfortable with p to p, turret board, eyelet amps but pcb? I have worked on them (pcb) a couple of times successfully but I ask a million questions to those who had experiance before I made a move. What would you do, put an add in the local paper--Guitar amp repair, guitar set up (I can do everything but fret work) and tube amp building!

Plate

[tubesornothing]

If your city is big enough you can limit your repairs on old PTP/eyelet/turret stuff.  I avoid SS and PCB like the plague - it has only caused me problems - every time.  However, others are good at it and don't mind doing it, so YMMV.

When I did some repair stuff, I printed up a few cards and handed them out to the local music shops.  They all know me anyways. So that was easy. Hand them out to guitar teachers too. I also would post on craigslist and other local web stuff.

Each time someone comes in for a repair, have your hand built stuff on display.  Let them noodle on your cool gear while you look over their amp.

My buddy is a luthier/guitar repair guy.  This past january, sales were in the tank.  We put up free ads on craigslist and two other local web ad sites, and within two weeks he was swamped. Just stunning what it does.

Good luck, keep us posted.

[jhadhar65]

>I am going to link up with a store soon, they take 25-35% though (ouch!).

Keep in mind as you go along that you're trying to get the most exposure.  Consider the 25-35% as an advertising fee.  Selling repairs and such online are one thing.  Selling complete amplifiers where neither the prospective buyer nor anyone he/she knows has any idea what it sounds or plays like is a different animal.

You know how it is - think of your favorite production amp.  Great amp with great sounds and reliability, right?  Now think of how many other people think it sucks.  Selling something as subjective as an amp sight-unseen (er, sound-unheard) takes the risk of selling to someone who just won't like it.  If that person is a review poster, i.e. Harmony Central, etc., they won't help you any.  I've seen reviews - both good and bad - of my amps from people on other forums and elsewhere who've never even seen it, much less played it.

On the other hand, if you have an amp sitting in a store with players coming in regularly that plug into it, everybody within earshot gets to hear it and the player that walks out with it knows what he's getting.  I've hung up my commercial attempts at amp building at least until I retire, but people I've never met before still talk and ask about my stuff.  I need more time to devote to kicking things into a high enough gear to make it financially worthwhile.  Still, though, the seeds are planted, it didn't cost me that much, and I've got a lot of players out there who know me - even if I don't know them.

I'll also say that be cautious of giveaways and sponsorships no matter which way you go.  I've decided that promotional giveaways are a complete waste of time and I'll never do it again.  Sponsorships can be the golden ticket, but you have to be very selective if you do this and have a little luck.  I have no luck myself, so I shy away from it.  Still, if there's a top band in your area that plays a regular circuit, has a firecracker guitarist, and you can get them to play one of your amps in exchange for onstage and banner promotion, that's something to consider.  Get it in writing with an effective time period you can live with.  You don't want to have to go get that amp under unfavorable conditions.

Last thing, when you're ready to kick it into high gear, don't underestimate a press release.  The Internet turns over fast, yes.  Even so, I stopped trying to break into commercial production about a year ago and there is still quite a bit of stuff floating around out there about my gear.  For example, here's a Google search I just did:  Monster Factory Amplification.  Did I mention that you should do a press release?  If web exposure is what you're after, this will go farther than an ebay ad.  There's stuff out there about my amps in languages I can't even read.

[mackie2]

Plate--

You are close enough to come to the amp show in Nashville in August--go to  www.creationaudiolabs.com for info, (look under COMMUNITY, then AMP EXPO) and you can  email them--They will get back to you.

I went last year, in August--Maybe 60-70 amp builders have their products to play through, compare--even discuss designs and sales.  It is really good show--small builders as well as the big boys.

It is the later part of August.

Mackie2

[m3moser]

I have been down the ebay road with many of my amps.  Here is what I learned quickly- you have to be able to include a sound file or a link to one as a minimum.  If you are not a good player then get someone else to play but use a website like soundclick.com to host the files.  Then, if you really serious, you also have a web page where you direct buyers to look at the amp, listen to the amp and read in detail what makes your amp something they need to have.
    I always built amps for ebay that were a known and in demand circuit at a price point that I could make some money but not pay many bills.  However, the theory I used was that ebay was a free advertising venue to drive customers to look at my other offerings or to build them something unique.  I sold dozens of amps on ebay but they were my more simple and low cost creations.  The traffic that went to my website to hear the soundclips soon looked over all the builds and other clips I had there and I was soon out of ebay and just getting interest and orders from the website.  If it slows down again, I'll put a few amps up on ebay again and renew the interest. 
   I have learned a few things.  If your not web savvy and capable of building a website (its not magic but it is daunting if you are not oriented mentally in that direction) then you need to get somebody to do one.  Nothing sells nowadays very well without a website.  The other thing I learned is that your high ended amps are in direct competition with famous name brand commercial offerings being sold by folks at a loss in some cases.  Its hard to get sales this way.  Start with a clone of a popular circuit at a price point that does not loose you money on ebay and drive that business to your higher end stuff you sell via your website.
    Feel free to look over my very simple website at www.frugalamps.com .  It took me a weekend to make and as I offer more amps, I'll just keep adding to it.

[mrr3000gt]

I built many amps and boards and sold them on ebay and the local economy. The problem is that people have the misconception that a handbuilt amp is inexpensive. After the parts were bought and assembled, it ended up I was making 10 bucks per hour to build an amp. I found I can charge 30-40 bucks per hour doing repairs. So now I do repairs and stopped doing builds, as there is more bang for the buck for the effort. I have made much more from repairs that in building amps. I did get a nice 1300.00 bass from selling one build I did (a bassman).

The problem also is that musicians can be bad customers: they are opinionated about tone, they want everything, and they have no money. I had one yo-yo I built an amp for that kept coming back for me to 'fix' his amp and blamed me for him burning tubes up. It turned out he liked to get creative with the impedances and do so at FULL volume (and not tell me what he was doing). He burned up tubes in the amp no less than 5 times and I found out what he was really doing. He thought nothing of jacking me around. Thats what you will deal with potentially.

I personally think there is more money in building the boards and making amp kits for others to build (and them offering to fix their builds).

[Platefire]

Guys. Thanks for the input and sharing your experiance. I have read everything and thinking about the best approach for my situation. I Live in a rural area, small town. Most big music shops are in a 100 mile radius from me ---Shreveport, Lake Charles, Alexandria, La. I would have to go pick up the amps and bring them back home and return them again for repairs--not unless a store had a shop area I could use but that would put me in a rush to run through them while I was there? Some things take a little time! As far as building amps, I would like to built something that I would consider really good/special. Latest thing I build that I thought was really special is a AB763 Deluxe reverb with bias tremolo and mid/raw control. IMHO the raw provides almost as much sensitivity as a MV. I don't know how important spring reverb is to players anymore? ---I'm a classic guy and like classic stuff. I find I like a self contained amp(combo), a grab and go type thing--and the deluxe is great for that. I seem to leave the heads and speaker cabs behind anymore.

It almost seems that in my situation, getting a web/net thing going might be the best thing in my situation. About 50 miles away in a place called Evans, La. there is a operation called "Tone Factor" the specializes in pedals that is completely a net/web page operation. I have met the guy and been in his shop. http://www.tonefactor.com/
 Plate

[mrr3000gt]

Hey Plate!

Spring reverb is important to everyone I know that uses reverb. It is true that digital reverb is the mode for the working musician. From what I have ever seen, an amp that does NOT have an FX loop is a problem with the working musicians in my area. They use guitar modeling technology (some with this 4 cable method hookup) and often use that FX loop. This was a big reason why I quit making amplifiers because I did not want to retrofit buffered effects loop circuitry into the Hoffman boards I was building.

What I see a big market for is a PURE POWER AMP. Most of these working musician guys use their Digitech 2120s, TC Electronics rigs, GT-8s/10s and plug the output straight into the effect loop RETURN bypassing the preamp all together. A simple just poweramp amplifier should be simple to build and can be put into a rack box so it is portable in with the other FX working and touring guitar players like to have in a single rack box.

[Platefire]

The attached pdf is a cosmetic design I'm considering using for stock 5E3 circuit in a Hammond chassis with cage. Will I get in trouble if I show the 5E3 circuit number on the cage as shown on the pix? just wondering? Plate

[tubesornothing]

http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html

My philosphy:  "it ain't a crime until someone catches you", and "fly under the radar"

I would just do it.  If fender sends you a "cease and desist" letter, then remove it.  I have sold imitation guitars and happily said "stratocaster" or "telecaster".  I did not sell them as genuine.  Many, many others do this too.  I only received grief if I used the name "fender" (ebay booted my ad for using a manufacturer name for an imitation).  Using the model names was never a problem.

[Platefire]

Thanks! That is great information. I'm building my first one to sell right now. I'm taking my time planning/building because I'm thinking in terms if I sell a bunch of them, I'll have the layout and proceedure/details down and recorded so I don't have to think about it on the next builds.  It will be sold as new. How do handle warrenty on something new? How should the shipping be handled to return it for any repairs. Up to now, I haven't had to consider these kind of things. Plate

[tubesornothing]

For new, customer pay the shipping.

The "norm" for repairs is the buyer pays for shipping back to you.  You pay for shipping back to them. 

For warranty make it as long as you like.  One year is common.  I see lifetime quite a bit as well. Generally I sell only a handful so I know the guys and just take care of them when they have a problem.

For tubes I only do what my supplier does: 3 months.

Good call on the  layout and proceedure/details down.  I have learned to have consistent "models" and make parts as interchangeable as possible.  Then I will do a run of a part (e.g. cabinet, turret board or a chassis).  It makes the builds faster and much more consistent.  One thing I do is write everything down (I have a poor memory) and then update procedures as I learn new techniques.

[tubesornothing]

Plate, here is the warranty from a well known boutique amp builder:

All XXXX amplifiers are warranted to be free from defects in workmanship (solder
joints, hardware assembly etc.) for the lifetime of the original owner, and free from
defects in materials (including cabinet) for three years from the date of purchase by the
original owner, provided that:
 The owner mails the signed warranty registration card (next page) and a copy of the
original sales receipt to XXXX Amplifiers within thirty days of purchase.
 Problems are not the result of misuse, abuse, tampering, circuit modification, improper
tube installation (incorrect orientation of tubes can damage the amp), or spilled
beverages, as these will void the warranty.
 The amplifier is shipped to XXXX Amplifiers in the original packing materials with freight
paid by the purchaser. We pay the return shipping after the warranty work is complete.
Tubes, speaker(s), and reverb tanks carry a ninety-day warranty, and are subject to
the same terms and conditions as above.

[PRR]

> owner mails the signed warranty registration card

IANAL. But I think under present US consumer law, seller may NOT require a warranty card.

[FYL]

IANAL. But I think under present US consumer law, seller may NOT require a warranty card.

Just give a 90-days std. warranty and offer an "enhanced" warranty if the customer returns the card.

[Platefire]

Thanks for the warrenty example. That looks good, I'll use it! I got one more week of work and then I'm retired--02 Sept. I was wanting to get my first amp ready to sell before retirement day but things have been so busy I just couldn't get ur dun. Got the chassis/top cage completly drilled ready to paint, board done and ready to populate. Going to measure all the drilled hole locations and record them on a drawing so if I get to do a lot of them, no more figuring---just layout and drill. I got $400 in parts in it, now to figure out how much labor I can get for myself and still be competitive. Also maybe should start considering setting up a web Page. I just don't want to get things moving too fast to quick. Platefire

[Platefire]

Bump!  Well as of 5:30 PM today, I'm offically retired. I'll start tomorrow with a pot of coffee and some front porch time to condemplate new moves  ----and off course I can work on my amp to finish and sell.

[tubesornothing]

Congratulations.  I am envious.  I doubt if I'll ever be able to retire 


Looking forward to the first of the new amps up on ebay!

[Platefire]

Well with the first amp built to sell the reality of the amp market is really discouraging. The amp market is just flooded with cheap heads and combos with all kinds of options---channel switching---bells and whistles galore!!! and here comes my retro one trick pony. I've got $400.00 + in parts in it and some of these finished heads are selling for that much or less. About my only advantage is mine is hand wired by someone who loves his craft--which may not mean much to a lot. I'm not tossing in the towel yet, it's not over until the Lord says so,   Plate

[tubesornothing]

Don't get into that cheap amp game. You'll never win unless you go to china.


 Stress hand built, USA made.  If you have made any amps for anyone - even half famous, use their name.  List why your wire is better than the next guys. Or why your caps or resistors are better.  Note that you have hand selected tubes.  Special wound transformers.  Use lots of adjetcives.  One thing I do, is indicate that my amps are limited - I only build a handful a year, and there is a waiting list.  Stress the specialness of your amps.

Put a few real nice clips up there too.

I am fiding it a hard road too.  I am just getting mine into the local stores so players can have hands on. I totally gave up on direct sales, I am just not a good salesman.   Also I have a few buddies in the stores who will really push my gear.  I also have four or five well known players using demo amps (which cost me a bunch, of course).  That way the sales guys can name drop, when trying to sell my amps.  Another road to try, perhaps.

[Boots Deville]

I just got back from dropping three of my builds off at a local store - this is my first crack at this.  Fingers crossed! 

[Bassmanster]

Perception is everything IMO, but is created by rock solid consistency over time.

Examples:  This Hoffman guy right here.  Been around a long time, utterly reliable and consistent, always on the job, fast, and doesn't blow smoke.  I think Allen of Allen Amps is another.  Great site, been around a long time, cool high-quality products, no drama.

They've paid their dues.

[tubesornothing]

Boots, one thing you have going for you is great curb appeal.  It makes a big difference in a store.  With all those amps in a store, yours will stand out nicely.

[Boots Deville]

Thanks ToN, I'm hoping that's enough to get 'em to plug in and test drive an amp from a maker they haven't heard of before.

I tend to get carried away with the colors.  I've recently had a couple guys ask about building a plain black amp.  I guess I could probably do that... 

[John]

First off, good luck to all you fellas selling amps!

Then just a couple ideas.... understanding that I doubt I'll ever sell an amp, and probably won't be able to have time to build more than just a few for myself. But I do understand a little about retail. First, don't try to compete on price (like someone else here said). Decide what you need to make a profit, and don't be afraid to tack on some more. Point out that these are more road hardy than PCB amps, and that anything that does go wrong will be quickly and easily fixed by you. Stress the simplicity of the amp over some of the 20differentkindsoftone amps; I think a lot of players still have a couple favorite foot pedals they'll use regardless. Finally, stand behind it for up to a year, no questions asked (unless it comes back dented). Once you have a rep as reliable and treating customers well, you'll stay busy. Word of mouth takes a while to work, but in my business it's really the only thing that's ever worked, and it doesn't cost me a thing except giving the customer what they want.

And again, good luck! I envy you guys that build your own!

[FYL]

I just got back from dropping three of my builds off at a local store - this is my first crack at this.  Fingers crossed! 

Really nice looking builds. Should be sold with a Fender Mustang finished with racing stripes...

[bluestone]

Plate,
One thing that can be positive about ebay is: You will get questions about other builds. I sell finished cabinets on ebay at the rate of 1 a month. I always get other requests for different cabinets and have turned away a lot of builds when I start to get too busy. I do agree with what others have said in that you will never get what your product is worth but I make enough to buy parts for my own builds and keep it fun. For instance, I sell a laquered tweed deluxe cabinet for $129.00. I will never get rich, but I have sold everything that I have built. I did cabinets for a boutique builder and the business went crazy. But I wasn't having fun so I quit doing that.Don't get dicouraged, you build a fine product.

[Platefire]

Thanks for the encouragement! Like someone already said about their self, I'm not a salesman---well me neather! I've never been a big talker. That seems to be prerequisite for a salesman. I found out I wasn't a salesman years ago when I once joined Amway. It would be a lot easier for me to write statements for a e-bay bid than to push my amps in a local music store. However I am pushing something I believe in. Of course if your amp works and sounds good, they do some talking for themselves. So I've been pushing myself to be more outgoing, especially for this. Platefire