Liability and all that crap

[tubesornothing]

So there have been a few posts over the years about certification and liability.  It can be done (obviously, cause the big guys do it), but it is way too expensive for us little guys.  Even guys like Carr and even Dr Z (last I saw)  do not have certification.  The only reason I brought this up is because some loud mouth dork in the music store got the music store owner all in a tizzy because my amps dont have certification.  In this juridiction it is legally a no-no to sell anything that can be plugged in unless it has a UL, ETL or CSA sticker.

Has anyone out there seriously looked at certification or liability?

thanks

[G._Hoffman]

So there have been a few posts over the years about certification and liability.  It can be done (obviously, cause the big guys do it), but it is way too expensive for us little guys.  Even guys like Carr and even Dr Z (last I saw)  do not have certification.  The only reason I brought this up is because some loud mouth dork in the music store got the music store owner all in a tizzy because my amps dont have certification.  In this juridiction it is legally a no-no to sell anything that can be plugged in unless it has a UL, ETL or CSA sticker.

I'd check with a lawyer about that.  I would be - pardon the expression - SHOCKED if that was the case for a small manufacturer.  Most laws of that nature have loop holes for small businesses, because of the financial burden of getting your work certified.  Which is good, because if you are building custom amps, you would have to get a certification any time you made any significant changes, which would - like as not - be for every single amp!

So, as I say, check with a lawyer on the details of the law in your area, but in all likelihood it isn't an issue.  Though if anyone ever gets killed or seriously wounded by one of your amps you could be fucked, but that is still there even if you do get the Underwriters to sign off on your stuff.


Gabriel

[Ritchie200]

Hey TON,

If Dr Z and Carr have no ratings, call them up.  Express your concerns as a "consumer" and see what they say.  You can use the same chorus for you local music store.  Although it is always a good idea to contact a lawyer that is proficient in product liability so he knows what he is talking about.  Also ask about the music store's liability for selling your stuff.  You can always set up your builds under a LLC for some protection - cheap and easy.  But I am no lawyer, nor do I play one one TV...  Keep us updated on this one.

Jim

[tubesornothing]

I'll do that. There is a provision for a "field safety representative" to look at the unit and provide local approval.  I presume they do this for a number of "one off" electrical appliances.  Perhaps I can get an FSR to approve the aspects of the design that pertain to the amps, and therefore each unit will not have to be inspected.

Anyone have a copy of UL60065 and or UL813 they wish to share?  Gee, they are only around $500 each

[G._Hoffman]

Anyone have a copy of UL60065 and or UL813 they wish to share?  Gee, they are only around $500 each

That's what the lawyer is for.

If this is your business, it really does make sense to spend the money for an hour or two of a competent lawyers time.


Gabriel

[tubesornothing]

Well I doubt if a lawyer is going to have copies of an electrical engineering standard.  And I really don't want to pay for a lwayer - unless I really need it.  I have found out that there is a local safety authority who can approve electrical equipment, without having to go through certification.  I am looking for a copy of the standard, because it'd be nice to be able to say: I have developed this in accordance with UL xxxx... when I take it to the safety authority.

All worrying aside, I will hold off on the lawyers for the time being.

The **only** reason I am doing this is to appease the store owner. Otherwise I wouldn't bother - damn the torpedos (liability and lawyers).

[G._Hoffman]

Well I doubt if a lawyer is going to have copies of an electrical engineering standard.  And I really don't want to pay for a lwayer - unless I really need it.  I have found out that there is a local safety authority who can approve electrical equipment, without having to go through certification.  I am looking for a copy of the standard, because it'd be nice to be able to say: I have developed this in accordance with UL xxxx... when I take it to the safety authority.

All worrying aside, I will hold off on the lawyers for the time being.

The **only** reason I am doing this is to appease the store owner. Otherwise I wouldn't bother - damn the torpedos (liability and lawyers).

I can understand that, but you would probably be able to appease the store owner just as quickly by saying, "my lawyer looked into it, and..."

People like hearing stuff like that.


Gabriel

[Rev D]

I'll be interested to see how this pans out. I know despite they're well known names, many of the guys showing up at NAMM for example are barely above or are still cottage builders (home/garage builders) who I doubt have gone through the whole UL hoops. Anyone can have a website with a professional looking cabinet and build quality but I have wondered myself what protection they have to have if someone unauthorized (I.E. the owner of said amp) pokes around inside an amp and gets bit. Good luck on it, its a shame some clown feels the need to cause a scene in a music store but some people like to get involved in things that are not they're business just for kicks.

Regards,

Rev. D.

[Ritchie200]

I certainly understand the aversion to going to an attorney.  However, a few hours could be very cheap insurance in the long run.  I actually had copies of all the UL Standards when I worked at Bussmann Fuse - sorry, that was in a past life.

The only thing I like hearing about a lawyer is a short rope and a sudden stop!

BTW, Mark Twain is my hero!

Jim

But I digress.....
Q: How many lawyer jokes are there?
        A: Only three. The rest are true stories.

Q: What's wrong with lawyer jokes?
        A: Lawyers don't think they're funny and other people don't think they're jokes.

Q: What do you call 25 skydiving lawyers?
        A: Skeet.

Q: What do you call a lawyer gone bad?
        A: Senator.

Q: What’s the difference between a lawyer and an onion?
        A: You cry when you cut up an onion.

Q: What do you call a lawyer with an IQ of 70?
        A: Your honor.

Q: What do you throw to a drowning lawyer?
        A: His partners.

Q: How can you tell when a lawyer is lying?
        A: His lips are moving.

Q: What do you have if three lawyers are buried up to their necks in cement?
        A: Not enough cement.

Q: What's the difference between a lawyer and a vulture?
        A: The lawyer gets frequent flyer miles.

Q: What do you get when you cross a bad politician with a crooked lawyer?
        A: Chelsea Clinton

Q: If you have a bad lawyer, why not get a new one?
        A: Changing lawyers is like moving to a different deck chair on the Titanic.

Q: How does an attorney sleep?
        A: First he lies on one side and then on the other.

Q: What’s the difference between a shame and a pity?
        A: If a busload of lawyers goes over a cliff, and there are no survivors, that’s known as a pity. If there were any empty seats, that’s a shame.

Q: What's the difference between a lawyer and a leech>
        A: When you die, a leech will stop sucking your blood and drop off.

Q: How do you get a group of lawyers to smile for a photo?
        A: Just say, "Fees!"

Q: How many lawyers does it take to change a lightbulb?
        A: Three. One to climb the ladder. One to shake it. And one to sue the ladder company.

Two Kinds of Lawyers
There are two kinds of lawyers: those who know the law and those who know the judge.

Mark Twain notes...
"It is interesting to note that criminals have multiplied of late, and lawyers have also; but I repeat myself."

Bad Reputation
Isn't it a shame how 99% of the lawyers give the whole profession a bad name.

People Drowning
If a lawyer and an IRS agent were both drowning, and you could only save one of them, would you go to lunch or read the paper?

I'll be here all week!

[PRR]

UL813 is phased-out in 2010 or 2012 (they postponed) and ANSI/UL 60065 will govern. "New product... will be... required.... 60065." Unless you already have UL813 compliance I think you should reference 60065.

> Anyone have a copy of UL60065 and or UL813

Yes, it is $500. Yes, Google is your friend. People in odd corners of the world stash reference copies for convenience. It is against copyright, and there is some chance they have been contaminated with a virus, and it may not be the latest edition.

UL60065, 2006:
http://www.dianyuan.com/bbs/u/84/3393261261706823.pdf
http://wenku.baidu.com/view/5509936e58fafab069dc0212.html

At a glance, just reading this will put you out of business. No local ad-hoc inspector can possibly test for full 60065 compliance. Much of it is, thankfully, not relevant. Large popular appliances should not suck a big surge at turn-on; the inspector may agree that on a small amp if the lights barely dim and the cellphone keeps working then it isn't a killer surge. OTOH the requirements for hot Projector Lamps might tempt an inspector who does not know what a tube is. Does UV light come off those things? (No; but how can you tell him?)

[tubesornothing]

Fantastic - thanks for the help.  It'll be interesting to see what the local inspector says...

[tubesornothing]

Here is a good clip from the standard:

18.2.2 Implosion test
Cracks are propagated in the envelope of each tube by the following method:
An area on the side or on the face of each tube is scratched (see figure 12) with a diamond stylus and
this place is repeatedly cooled with liquid nitrogen or the like until a fracture occurs. To prevent the cooling
liquid from flowing away from the test area, a dam of modelling clay or the like should be used.
After this test, no particles having a mass exceeding 2 g shall have passed a 25 cm high barrier placed
on the floor 50 cm from the projection of the front of the tube and no particles shall have passed a similar
barrier at 200 cm.

[tubesornothing]

At a first go-round with the standard, here is a list of things that apply to the amps (this does not include testing):

- User Manual with safety 5.4
- must be of class I or Class II insulation 3.2
- class I described 8.5
- on off switch must be marked 8.19.2
- rear label 
   cant rub it off Sec 5
   identification and ratings 5.1
   risk of electric shock 5.1 (I)
   fig 19, fig 20, fig 25 hot surface
- cannot poke in a metal wire in a vent and get shocked 9.1.3
- label for fuse 14.5.2.2, 14.5.4
- power cords (permanently attached or plugged)  cord with strain relief 15.1.3.2
- use green or green/yellow for earthing 15.2

I am sure there is more...

[tubesornothing]

Product Inspection is $189/hr.  Nice job.

[tubesornothing]

The government safety agency said all "field" inspections are performed by third party companies.  They referred me to a local inspector from Intertek (ETL).  This inspector (who owns a tube audio amp), said the cost is $175/hr, minimum 2 hr charge, plus $10 for the sticker. He figures it will be less than 2 hrs to inspect.  Each unit must be individually inspected, and I cannot have a "design" and sample inspected, then I apply labels to my own for each amp within a model line. Each individual unit must be inspected.  The standard that is followed is "CSA SPE-1000-09 Model code for the field evaluation of electrical equipment"

So basically $360 per unit plus taxes - ouch.

OK, all that said.  I went to the local music store.  DR Z, Carr, Top Hat, Mohave - no stickers at all. No certification marks at all.

[G._Hoffman]

The government safety agency said all "field" inspections are performed by third party companies.  They referred me to a local inspector from Intertek (ETL).  This inspector (who owns a tube audio amp), said the cost is $175/hr, minimum 2 hr charge, plus $10 for the sticker. He figures it will be less than 2 hrs to inspect.  Each unit must be individually inspected, and I cannot have a "design" and sample inspected, then I apply labels to my own for each amp within a model line. Each individual unit must be inspected.  The standard that is followed is "CSA SPE-1000-09 Model code for the field evaluation of electrical equipment"

So basically $360 per unit plus taxes - ouch.

OK, all that said.  I went to the local music store.  DR Z, Carr, Top Hat, Mohave - no stickers at all. No certification marks at all.

I guess the only question is if he can do more than one amp in a two hour session?

But like I said, it is likely you don't need to bother with it.


Gabriel

[tubesornothing]

I guess the only question is if he can do more than one amp in a two hour session?

I expect so. 

But like I said, it is likely you don't need to bother with it.

Heard, loud and clear.  I will get to the lawyer thing when the time comes.  I gotta do it my way!

[Geezer]

I scanned the thread but didn't see it mentioned.....where the heck are you (what country?)

This is a classic example of government bureaucracy run amok.....if these regulations had been in place years ago, we wouldn't have ANY of today's modern marvels.....no light bulbs, no electricity into our homes, nothing that may have placed some poor, helpless moron in danger of eliminating themselves from the gene pool.
How about a gov agency to regulate knives & forks (very dangerous stuff there), or to set the standard for the sharpness of pencils (huge fines & jail time for running with a knife of pencil.....for the manufacturer, of course, NOT the idiot runner)....stupidity

  :mumum:

OK, rant off  

[PRR]

> if these regulations had been in place years ago

Not new. Study the cheapest gitar-amps around 1960, the ones with no PT. There's a series of detail changes forced by CSA, UL, and even the county of Los Angeles to reduce the shock-hazard of "AC/DC" radios and similar products. These rules even forced new tube-types to get greater spacing between heater pins and other pins.

[G._Hoffman]

But like I said, it is likely you don't need to bother with it.

Heard, loud and clear.  I will get to the lawyer thing when the time comes.  I gotta do it my way!

My dad spent 20 years as a lawyer, so two things I've heard an awful lot are, "if you need an answer to a legal question, ask a lawyer in the field," and, of course, "NEVER talk to cops without your lawyer present!"  I can't really help it!


Gabriel