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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: 5E3 interactive volume controls  (Read 8549 times)

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Offline panhead

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5E3 interactive volume controls
« on: August 31, 2010, 11:15:40 am »
I've built a couple of single-channel 5E3-type amps, but now I'm starting on a 2-channel EL34 5E3.  I've read about the interaction between the volume controls, but I don't know what to expect. Do you have to jumper the channels together, or does the interaction happen because of the shared cathode resistor? Any opinions on this phenomenon?

Thanks
Panhead

Offline phsyconoodler

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Re: 5E3 interactive volume controls
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2010, 12:19:48 pm »
Take a closer look at the layout.The two volume controls are connected with a wire.That's why they interact.The shared cathode R/C alters the gain characteristics somewhat but has nothing to do with the volume interaction.
  What you have is two channels already but only one tone stack with the volumes connected.
Also if you look at the way the channels couple to the next stage and phase inverter,it becomes clearer.It's like the two channels fight each other for gain control.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2010, 12:25:09 pm by phsyconoodler »
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Offline panhead

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Re: 5E3 interactive volume controls
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2010, 01:23:00 pm »
Does it affect the fatness of the tone in any way?
Panhead

Offline Boots Deville

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Re: 5E3 interactive volume controls
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2010, 01:58:45 pm »
Does it affect the fatness of the tone in any way?
In my experience there seems to be a "sweet spot".  If you dime the channel you're not plugged into, the tone gets thin, but then backing it off to about 8 (of 10) gives a nice fatness.  I dig the 5E3, but IMO people make a bigger deal of the interactive thing than is warranted.  Maybe that was just my particular build.

BTW Pan, haven't seen you here as much as in the past, but I recently built a small cathodyne EL84 head that ended up being too "hi-gain" for my needs.  Then I remembered the "ACE-35" schematic you posted that I saved off many moons ago.  I thought that looked like a cool idea, and my build had the same two 12AX7 and FMV tone stack, so this week I ripped out the cascaded preamp and converted it to "ACE" specs0.  ACE-18?  Just powered it up last night, and so far I like it a lot. Takes pedals real well too. 

Offline panhead

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Re: 5E3 interactive volume controls
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2010, 02:45:27 pm »
Yeah, I've been pretty busy, but I have two amps under construction right now, so I getting my brain back into tube amp mode. Glad to hear you liked the ACE 35 circuit. It's really nothing new, but I've been gigging with it for about 5 years now.

Later,

Panhead
Panhead

Offline jojokeo

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Re: 5E3 interactive volume controls
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2010, 05:32:42 pm »
There's some reading of a free issue of the Tone Quest Report of Larry Cragg & discussing Neil Young's Deluxes, opinions on tone, etc. - http://www.tonequest.com/pdf_pubs/samples/TQRSep06_Proof.pdf

Excerps: Guys are into stuff like Amp Farm now and they don’t understand or appreciate the bloom of a 6L6 output tube. I like small amplifiers that don’t have preamp controls, so you can get output tube saturation rather than getting your 12AX7’s to distort and then have a nice clean amplifier to amplify that. I hate that sound… That takes me back to Boogie… Carlos came in one day and he wanted more sustain, so I boosted the pickups in his guitar with ceramic magnets. Randy started boosting Fender amps, and they’d come out saying “Boogie” on the front and “Prune” on the back… “Prune Boogies.” We were partners together at Prune music throughout the early ‘70s until he launched Mesa Boogie, and
Randy is the one that hooked me up with Neil…He was working for Neil, going through his amplifiers, and
I’d get these calls from Randy on the road. He went out for a week at a time working on Neil’s rig, which was an insane thing with all these tweed amps plugged into each other. I started doing surgery over the
telephone on Old Black, and after that I started riding down to Neil’s ranch with Randy. That was in 1973, and I’ve been working for him ever since.

… I installed a bypass switch and now instead of getting 85% of Black, you’re getting 100%. With the bypass switch all the volume and tone controls are bypassed. It’s just shocking. People don’t realize how much of the sound is getting wasted through the controls. On Old Black there are remnants of a phase switch that is long gone and I got the proper switch that would fit in the old space right between the four knobs and put it in. People were amazed that I had Black all apart in the studio 30 minutes before recording was supposed to start, but I got it together and he never switched it back during all
of the sessions. The tone and volume controls remained bypassed and he loved it. Once you’ve heard it, it’s kind of hard to go back. On my Super Reverbs that I rent I used to turn the Vibrato intensity control to a negative feedback control. When you change it back and put the negative feedback back in, everybody says, “Oh, no!” It sounds like it’s in a straightjacket.
TQR: When you bypass the volume and tone pots, does anything get lost?
No. More highs for sure, and it makes the guitar sound closer to you. Neil told his manager that with the bypass switch Black goes to ‘11’ now. On the current CSN&Y tour he’s playing his completely freaked out Deluxe on ’12’ with a capo and the bypass switch and the combination of all that stuff makes for a very unusual sound. Stephen (Stills) was standing off stage during a song Neil plays solo called “Roger and Out” and he said that it sounded like Neil was playing three chords at once. All the inter modulation/distortion makes it hard to know what’s going on, but it is a very cool sound

...Neil could mix the sound of the tweed Deluxe versus the sound of the Magnatone 280 amp. His private PA was sitting inside the huge Deluxe prop on stage, and the volume on stage was so loud that the guitar
would start vibrating and the sound would swirl around and around…
TQR: But you weren’t slaving the Deluxe…
Definitely not. We pad down the speaker out and run that into the Magnatone and the Baldwin Exterminator, which is two 15’s, two 12’s and two 8’s. We’re not slaving it in the traditional way, and what you’re hearing are the 6L6’s in the Deluxe. Neil is so into this… Every little switch contact between the guitar and the amplifier for the effects loop are these great big RF contacts that go “clunk.” Sometimes he’ll have me bypass all of it and just run straight from the reverb to the amp, which is how the last album was cut. He can hear everything… He knows when the rig is running at 117 volts instead of 120. He’s known for busting me on that, although that doesn’t happen anymore. We keep it at 120
volts all the time.
TQR: Some might wonder why go to all that trouble instead of just turning down the guitar volume…
Are you kidding me? No! When you turn down the volume of your guitar you’re dumping so much of the tone and high end to ground that it’s just a terrible thing to do. A volume pedal does the same thing. You’ve got to leave the guitar volume on 10 and control it from the amp. Remember that both volume controls on the tweed Deluxe are interactive, so we have controls on both volume pots. With the volume on the input that the guitar is plugged into cranked, you get some something extra special from the second input being turned up as well, in a very special way. The idea for all this was Neil’s, and it was up to us to figure out how to make it work.
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is research.

Offline tubeswell

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Re: 5E3 interactive volume controls
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2010, 06:43:55 pm »
The volt/tone interactivity is to do with the way that there are multiple (variable) grid loads in parallel in front of the PI driver stage.  The channel vol controls mess with each other in this regard, unless you have the inputs jumpered, in which case turning them up simply makes them louder. 
A bus stops at a bus station. A train stops at a train station. On my desk, I have a work station.

Offline Fresh_Start

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Re: 5E3 interactive volume controls
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2010, 09:46:03 pm »
OK - I'm nobody and don't know nothin' but the statement that "You’ve got to leave the guitar volume on 10 and control it from the amp" has got to be one of the stupidest things I've ever read. 

OK, maybe it's essential to get the tone Neil Young uses, but there are knobs on a guitar for a reason.   Not everyone wants to sound like that.  There are tons of different amp topologies.  Dirt pedals can be lots of fun.  Some preamp distortion sounds GREAT (just ask Geezer & tubenit).  I just hate it when a guy with absolutely incredible experience makes a ridiculous pronunciamento like this.  It's like Alexander Dumble babbling about the electron lattice (or whatever silliness he was spouting on that YouTube video).  Are they just too special to share anything with the rest of us?  Should I stay up late and straighten out the necks of my guitars tonight before it's too late?

Chip  :angry:
Quote from: jjasilli
We have proven once again no plan survives contact with the enemy, or in this case, with the amp.

Quote from: PRR
Plan to be wrong about something.

Offline jojokeo

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Re: 5E3 interactive volume controls
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2010, 12:54:10 am »
 :laugh:

He contradicts himself saying:
"On my Super Reverbs that I rent I used to turn the Vibrato intensity control to a negative feedback control. When you change it back and put the negative feedback back in, everybody says, “Oh, no!” It sounds like it’s in a straightjacket."

Why did he do that mod numerous times, put it back to normal presumeably, and then "change it back"  when it ruined the sound "everybody" doesn't like?  :huh:

I saw that Dumble vid also a long time ago, that lattice and space charge stuff was pretty funny the way he said it all so seriously and Svengali profound-like...I'm picturing Jack Black playing his part.  :laugh:
Curious why it seems people are afraid to even print his name anyway? It's always "*umble", is there some great lawsuit from the past that has people worried about him coming after them for writing his name or some other assocaition?  :evil5:  Now I'm thinking of re-naming my DumbleWatt to Svengali instead  :evil6:
« Last Edit: September 01, 2010, 01:32:23 am by jojokeo »
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is research.

Offline Fresh_Start

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Re: 5E3 interactive volume controls
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2010, 09:41:29 am »
Quote
Now I'm thinking of re-naming my DumbleWatt to Svengali instead

SvengaliWatt... PERFECT!

Or you could build a "Svengali Overdrive Special".  S.O.S. for short.  That could also mean "Save Our Ship" or "Same Old S___" depending on your mood :wink:

Chip
Quote from: jjasilli
We have proven once again no plan survives contact with the enemy, or in this case, with the amp.

Quote from: PRR
Plan to be wrong about something.

Offline Shrapnel

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Re: 5E3 interactive volume controls
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2010, 01:47:15 pm »
Or you could build a "Svengali Overdrive Special".  S.O.S. for short.  That could also mean "Save Our Ship" or "Same Old S___" depending on your mood :wink:

Chip

LOL. That reminds me of Mesa Boogie's S.O.B. - Son of Boogie amp.

(As a side note interesting to see that Mesa and VOX both have sub-20W tube amps in a small footprint, ala Orange Tiny Terror, or smaller)


As far as the Dumble thing, I dunno myself, perhaps since his circuitry is so secret that he's supposed to have encased all his mods and circuits in epoxy people are afraid that he WILL come after them for a clone circuit.
-Later!

"All the great speakers were bad speakers at first" - Ralph Waldo Emerson

Offline jojokeo

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Re: 5E3 interactive volume controls
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2010, 02:44:03 pm »
I was thinking "Son of Svengali" but then I also thought of "S___ on a Shingle" too  :laugh: besides, tubenit has all those "COS" "TOS" "DOS" "BOS" amps covered I think? I don't want to get in the way of any of those.

Staying on point of this thread it is interesting to note that the Fender Deluxe is also associated w/ Dumble too.

David Lindley, of course is notorious for using a vast array of exotic guitars from an instrument collection that number well over 100. But on the road, he uses only one brand of amplifier, a fact that makes Howard Dumble understandably proud. As Lindley told Guitar Player in a July '77 interview, "I've got a lot of little amps, but on the road, I always use Dumble amps because they never break down. We went about getting the sound in those amps by taking an old Fender Deluxe to Howard Dumble and saying, 'We want this, but bigger and louder.' And Howard got the closest of anybody I've heard."

>Some players describe Dumbles as different, more powerful, more durable more efficient versions of a Fender Deluxe

That's a good way to describe it--in a limited fashion. There are some great qualities to a small Deluxe. You get a great harmonic structure at a small acoustic volume. It's real pleasing, especially when you're playing by yourself. But that sound is not convertible into a group ambience--it's gone. So, in the respect that I try to get something comfortable and very musical, only in a bigger fashion, that's a good analogy. But the circuitry is not even close. I use vacuum tubes, and transformers and knobs, but the similarity stops there. To get the result I want, I have to use unique circuitry. It's my tone circuits and coupling circuits and the way I process phase-inversion.

Some additional background info:
Howard Dumble, 40 [in September of 1985], grew up in Bakersfield, California, and began building transistor radios from scratch at age 12. He took up guitar at 16 (he later did his fair share of studio dates in Hollywood, which included working with songwriter Jim Webb), and in 1965 built a series of amplifiers for Mosrite that were used by the Ventures. An extensive tour backing Buffy Sainte-Marie financed Dumble's first "out of the backyard and into a building" amp shop in 1968, in Santa Cruz, California. The following year, Dumble came out with his Explosion model amplifier (his original prototype still works), which later evolved in the Overdrive Special. His line of amplifiers currently includes seven basic models: the Overdrive, the Steel-String Singer, the Winterland and the Dumbleland for bass and guitar, the rack-mount Phoenix, a no-frills 50-watt Dumbleman, and the Dumblelator--a tube vs. sold-state impedance translator--as well as the Big Tex reverb unit. From the beginning, he has remained a one-man operation, personally building every one of his amplifiers by hand.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2010, 03:00:11 pm by jojokeo »
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is research.

 


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