My bread board

[Willabe]

I got 3 day UPS and the shipping was a buck or 2 more than for the 4 switches.

[sluckey]

I was hoping for a dollar amount?

[Willabe]

4 switches $11.08, UPS 3 day $12.99.   

[Ed_Chambley]

I usually get about $12 Shipping from Mouser if I do not use my UPS account number.  If I use my account number it is $7.75 for business delivery.  Home will be more.

[sluckey]

Thanks.

[Willabe]

Well, I changed out that coupling cap (CC) 1P8T rotary switch (RS) that was giving me problems with the new Alpha 1P12T RS, it's working GREAT! Very smooth and very fast. Play something and reach with my left hand for the switch and then play the same thing, very easy to hear any change in tone.   

I also added the 2 OD caps I had, 1@ 715/400v, 1@ 225/400v.

I played another hour or so and I am hearing some differences BUT NOTHING where I can say this cap is the best hands down.

Tests were done with the set up in reply #93, I had my Fender stand alone Reverb feeding the Champ 5F1 (with a Fender single knob tone control engaged). All test's this round were with the volume set at ~11:00, tone set at ~2:00, no change in those settings;

1. One of the differences I'm hearing is the overall frequency response across the full frequency spectrum. Some had less bottom bass end, so they sounded more bright. BUT at the same time, the brighter caps had less bottom end distortion.

2. Second difference I'm hearing is depth/3D sound. Some sound more flat/lifeless, not frequency so much but depth, more like adding a slight amount of reverb.

3. The 3rd thing I'm hearing is some seem to sound better with single notes and some seem to sound better with cords when left to sustain/ring out. There's a smoother sustained 'grind' and a very nice 'swirl' that sounds real good to me. Sounds like a big amp, Marshall/HiWatt, that's not over the top with a fuzz before it or on 10. Real nice for some things.

I only did all these test with only 1 guitar so far (re-issue 80's rosewood fret board Strat, stock PUPs, neck PUP, volume/tone full up).

As I said this is with 1 guitar/PUP's and no change in the amps/guitars  volume/tone controls.

So...... so far I think that for the same reasons that I might reject some of the caps, I believe others would love those same caps.      

PS: I had a hearing test last month that came back as both ears being very close in full frequency spectrum/volume and the hearing of an early 20 year old, at 56.  

[HotBluePlates]

That's a great rundown! I'd be interested in seeing this last post with the specific caps mentioned under each of the categories you've outlined (perhaps in its own thread?).

Since I've used some of those caps but not others, having the names added to the observations would help as it would give a sense of how a given cap is different from a known reference.

[Willabe]

I'd be interested in seeing this last post with the specific caps mentioned under each of the categories you've outlined (perhaps in its own thread?).

I'll post them here.     I want to play through them a little more 1st, to be sure.

[HotBluePlates]

I was briefly thinking about a prototype box to test different caps based on this thread.  It would have 3 switches, for each of 0.022uF, 0.047uF and 0.1uF caps, to hear the different brands/types. Add a 4th 3-position switch to select the value-switch in use. The idea was to have not just ployester-dielectric caps, but oil, polypropylene and polystyrene, too (I already have a mess of 0.1uF polystyrene caps).


I think I'm starting to talk myself out of it because of the cumulative cost of switches, caps, box and binding posts. But I was very excited to try it for an hour or two... 

[Willabe]

A friends over and playing through the amp, sounds pretty good, it's starting to grow on me.   

I popped in an NOS Philips ECG JAN 6V6 last night and it sounds much smoother than the new EH 6V6 I had in there.

Amps got plenty of chime with the strat, very nice harmonics and the verb gives a nice depth to it. It's set at ~11:00 (tone ~2:00) and that's plenty of distortion for me. 

The WGS 15" alnico sounds real good to me. 

[Willabe]

I was briefly thinking about a prototype box to test different caps based on this thread.  It would have 3 switches, for each of 0.022uF, 0.047uF and 0.1uF caps, to hear the different brands/types. Add a 4th 3-position switch to select the value-switch in use. The idea was to have not just ployester-dielectric caps, but oil, polypropylene and polystyrene, too (I already have a mess of 0.1uF polystyrene caps).

That would work great. 

I think I'm starting to talk myself out of it because of the cumulative cost of switches, caps, box and binding posts. But I was very excited to try it for an hour or two... 

That's a problem with trying this kind of thing. Some of these caps are well over $12 a piece. But I really wanted to get to the bottom of this with my own ears.

[Willabe]

Oh, I replaced the NOS 5Y3 with a TAD GZ34/5AR4. Reservoir dcv is now ~360dcv and preamp B+ C node is ~230dcv. Sounds better to me. Next I'm going to lower the B+ dropping R going to the C node from 22K to 10K maybe 5K and see if I like that better.     

[Willabe]

Here's the caps I tried, uF value tested before soldering them up to an Alpha 1P12T rotary switch so I could compair them instantly and not from ear memory; 

1. Mallory 150/white/630v/22.02nF.
2. Mallory 150/yellow/630v/22.02nF.
3. Jupiter/yellow/600v/20.39nF.
4. Jupiter/red/600v/19.28nF.
5. SoZo/blue/400v/22.02nF.
6. Musicap/600v/23.00nF.
7. AuriCap XO/600v/20.78
8. Mojo Mustard/630v/22.05nF.
9. Orange Drop/400v/22.74nF.
10. OD 715/400v/22.30nF

Here's what I think so far after 3 different rounds of playing on 3 different days, playing single notes and full chords, both with -FB and without -FB;

1st, I think ALL the caps would definitely work fine for different people, in different builds, with different guitars, different PUP's and different music/playing styles. (Remember I'm testing these caps in a SE Champ, 5F1, 1x6V6, V1a/b ~150dcv plate, 6V6 ~360dcv and the 12T CC rotary switch is connected to the 1st CC from V1a plate to V1b volume control, with a Strat. And I only tested 1 of each as a sample.)

Also, and I don't know what it means, was when I tested for the caps outside foil lead, some were way noisier than others. (I mean how noisy the cap is with the outside foil lead hooked up to the test amps input.) The Mallory's were the nosiest with the white being the worst. The Musicap and AuriCap were by far the quietest. The quite 1's had very little difference in noise when flipping the switch to flip the caps leads. And on the outside foil cap lead to the test amps input they were way quieter than the other caps on their outside foil lead. Big difference.

I was thinking, before these tests, that the fatter the cap the more shielding it would have from outside foil lead to the inside foil lead. So larger values/larger voltage rating(fatter cap) would have more difference when switching leads. A 0.1uF cap is way easier to hear a difference than a .0047uF cap, I have a very hard time hearing any difference in leads on a Mallory white 150. (I know that Tubenit and Gezzer have posted they hear the opposite.  )  But the Musicap was the quietest and is the thinnest.   

So far, for the sound I'm wanting, my least liked sounding cap (to me) is the white Mallory 150. Flat , no/not much depth(3D depth) and thinner/less bottom end, yet clean(er) sounding and a little more forward/aggressive sounding? And the yellow Mallory's 150 sounds different than the white. It's fuller and has some better depth to it. But is not as clean on the bottom, because it has more bottom extended range? 

(I noticed that the shape and size/dimensions changed on the 22nF 150's but not on the other values I have of the 150's. The yellows are just a little shorter and fatter. I'm gonna have to try a few other white/yellow 150 values and see if they sound closer to the same rather than different on the bottom end.)

(I have a couple of old Fender blue tubular caps from the BF amps around here somewhere. I'll see if I can find them then test them to make sure there not leaking any dcv. Might be a good base line?)

The Musicap was/is the most balanced to my ear, top/middle/bottom end, very nice sounding, maybe the nicest mid range, had the most 3D depth of sound, smoothest distortion and had the best ringing sustain smooth growl/swrill on a full cord left to ring out. I think it has/lets the most harmonics through?  It's also, unfortunately, the most expensive. 

AuriCap was very good too, although a little cleaner/less bottom end but clearer because of it?
 
The blue SoZo, another pricey(er) cap, sounded pretty thin to me and pretty flat sounding too. But again very clean/clear sounding. (Might sound great with a big Jazz box guitar?) 

The Jupiters sounded good, pricey(er) caps, the yellow sounds pretty good, fuller and some/more depth than most. But the red costs more than the yellow, red has a tube/sleeve it's in and they sound close but less bottom and cleaner/clearer.

I can hear why Tubenit likes the OD 225's. They sound more like/close to the yellow 150 and yellow Jupiter caps. Fuller bottom, more depth, nice mids, a little less bottom that the yellow 150 and yellow Jupiter. (Might be that the mids are a little more apparent because there's a little less low end?) The OD 715 is cleaner and brighter with less bottom end distortion. For a cleaner amp, maybe for a Jazz player with a big body git box, they might sound very good?

Mojo Mustard was good, maybe a good in between cap from a bright to bassy(er) cap? I like it.

[Willabe]

I have to say that at 1st I didn't like this little 5F1 Champ at all!

But........ after playing through it more and changing the rectifier from a 5Y3 to a GZ34/5AR4 (this raised the 6V6 plate dcv to ~360 and the 12AX7 dcv to ~150dcv, much better sound to me) and changing the (new) EH 6V6 to a NOS Philips ECG JAN 6V6 (smoother distortion), I'm really liking this little amp!

Then........ I added the -FB loop........ at 1st I hated it! I thought I had something wired wrong, maybe the tap point. But I tried it again tonight and with a fresh set of ears and played with the amps volume/tone controls, it's fine.

If/when I build a Champ I will absolutely add a on/off -FB switch, as I found great sounds with both -FB on/off. This really surprised me.      

[Willabe]

Over all the caps with more bottom end sounded better to me on single note leads and the thinner sounding caps sounded better on full cords. Which makes sense to me.   

Now with some of these comments remember I didn't play with the amps volume/tone controls or the guitars volume/tone controls. Some of the possible shortcomings(?) might vary well be compensated for by dialing in/shaping the sound with them.

[Paul1453]

you don't  really think I'd recommend a product that was conductive to use on electronics, right?

it imporives conductivity of the. ontacts by deoxidizing.

Your right, I know you better than that. 

Ok, deoxidizing the contacts. Thanks Pete and thanks lego and all the guys!

Before I tried DeoxIT I thought I could just use any old lubricant spray, WD40 etc. were already on my shelf so why bother with an expensive can of this other stuff?
Now that I have used it, I think it is some kind of miracle spray.  It has brought frozen pots and numerous switches/contacts back to life for me.
DeoxIt is a must have item on my shelf now.

[sluckey]

There is more than one kind of Deoxit.

[Willabe]

Out working on the BB doing some tests.

There's a little calibrator screw on the face of the panel meters just below the needle vain. So I set the input acv to 120acv with my variac and my hand held meter (HHM) then adjusted the panel meter to read the same, easy enough.

Then I tried to set the input B+ dcv meter to what my HHM read and that's at the 1st/reservoir filter cap and it would go up in it's reading but not down enough.

HHM said 338.5dcv could only get the panel meter down to ~ 350dcv, 1K dcv scale. Close enough.

Now I'd like to calibrate the B+ power supply (PSU) current meter (monitors the whole PSU B+ current) and the power tube K current meter.

I'll thinking, I'll either put my HHM in series with the B+ dcv or pop in a 1 ohm R and measure across it. That should work.

But on the K current meter there's a 1 ohm R across it already.

So can I use my HHM to measure across it safely? Will it give a false reading doing that?

PSU current panel meter, at idol, reads ~41mA, but the K panel meter, at idol, is reading only ~28mA's. Champ set up, 1x6V6, 1x12AX7. That's 13mA's difference. With only 1 more tubes current draw, a 12AX7, maybe 2mA, the rest is filter cap charging current and/or the panel meters are off?

1st/reservoir/22uF = 338.5dcv > then fender 6L6 choke > A node/22uF = 334.5dcv > then 470 ohm > B node/ 22uF = 297.0dcv > then 10K; C node/10uF = 239.6dcv.

6V6 plate = 308.6dcv, K = 17.61dcv, 250 ohm K R, screen R = 470ohm.           

[sluckey]

There's a little calibrator screw on the face of the panel meters just below the needle vain.

That's a mechanical zero. With no power applied place a short across the meter terminals and turn that screw clockwise until the needle is below zero. Continue slowly turning clockwise until it reads zero. Don't back up. If you go past zero just keep turning until below zero again.

You can check the meter full scale by applying the correct current. Any other calibration has to be done with external circuitry.

[Willabe]

2 other things;

I've tried to measure for ac ripple voltage at the 1st reservoir B+ filter cap with my HH meter and I can't get any reading of acv? If I watch the HHM and as I 1st touch the red probe to the reservoir node/positive end of the 22uF cap, the meter flashes ~3. something acv's.

So my meter's not good enough/can't read it or there's no ripple because the it's a class A amp with only ~41mA of current draw?

The other thing is I noticed that when I had my Fender stand alone reverb plugged was in the front end input jack of the BB, that when I didn't use the ground lift adapter on the verbs power cord, the B+ panel current meter would drop to ~10mA.

At 1st I thought the panel meter was bad,          ...... but put the ground lift adapter on the verb's power cord and the B+ current panel meter goes back up to ~41mA.   

I guess without the ground lift adapter on the verbs power cord that gives the BB another path for the B+ ground return current to flow, so the panel meter doesn't see it?       
 

[Willabe]

That's a mechanical zero.

Ohhhh.....  I'll try it. 

[Willabe]

Yes it works just like you said. 

Tried my HHM in series with the B+ from the 1st reservoir filter cap, set for mA's, red lead to filter cap positive end, black lead to down stream B+, got ~0.49mA's. So that doesn't work. (Unless the meter leads need to be flipped?)

Then I put the HHM in series with the PT CT, set for mA's, red lead to PT CT, black lead to ground, reads 56.8mA's.

Panel meter still worked with both tests and read ~41mA's(200mA scale). 56.8mA - 41mA = 15.8mA.

So is the way I have the panel meter set up in the B+ PSU not seeing that 1st 22uF filter cap? Or my panel meter is not very accurate? Or both?

[Willabe]

You can check the meter full scale by applying the correct current.

How?

[Willabe]

On the K current meter there's a 1 ohm R across it already.

1. Can I use my HHM to measure across it safely?

2. Will it give a false reading doing that?

[sluckey]

What is an HHM?

[Willabe]

What is an HHM?

Sorry, because I'm talking about the panel meters and my bench/hand held meter, I abbreviated it to HHM a few posts back in ( ). I wanted to be clear which meter I was referring to.   

[Willabe]

I measured across the 1ohm R on the back of the panel dcv meter and my test meter read 29.3mA's, panel meter read ~28mDCV's. Not bad, close enough. 

Odd thing though, I 1st disconnected the 1ohm R from the panel meter and measured for dcv across the 1ohm and read 37.7mA. 
 
 

[sluckey]

I would get a handful of 1Ω/1W resistors to use in conjunction with a breadboard. For example, put one between your rectifier and the first filter. The voltage drop across it represents the entire B+ current load. Put one almost anywhere you want to measure current.

[sluckey]

Odd thing though, I 1st disconnected the 1ohm R from the panel meter and measured for dcv across the 1ohm and read 37.7mA.

The meter coil has resistance too. It's in parallel with your 1Ω resistor and should skew your readings.

[Willabe]

The meter coil has resistance too. It's in parallel with your 1Ω resistor and should skew your readings.

37.7 - 29.3 = 8.4     That much? That's close to what, 25%?

[sluckey]

Probably not. Why don't you measure the resistance of your meter coil?

[Willabe]

I would get a handful of 1Ω/1W resistors to use in conjunction with a breadboard.

I have a bunch here I got from Doug.

But it's nice to be able to look up at the BB's panel meters and see what's going on with out having to move my test meter's gator clips/probes around. That was the whole point of using the panel meters and to free up the bench test meter.       

[Willabe]

With 1 end of the 1ohm R disconnected from the back of the panel meter, coil = 3.8 ohms.

With 1 ohm R across panel meter coil = 0.6 ohm.

1 ohm R = 0.9 ohm.

Test meter leads shorted = 0.0 ohm.

Test meter = Klein tools, MM2000.

[Willabe]

Some of the panel meters say 'Class 2.5' on their face panel.

I did a search and the best I can figure out is that "Class 2.5" means +/- 2.5%?

[sluckey]

With 1 end of the 1ohm R disconnected from the back of the panel meter, coil = 3.8 ohms.

That's very significant.

I'm not suggesting to abandon the panel meters. I'm suggesting to use the 1Ω resistors to get a feel for how accurate your panel meters are. If you have a multimeter that you trust the current function, then you don't even need the 1Ω resistors. Just put your multimeter in series with your panel meter, connect to a variable power supply with current limiting resistor, increase the power supply output until the panel meter reads exactly full scale, and compare to your multimeter reading. IE, if you have a panel meter that says full scale current is 100mA, then use a power supply to pump 100mA through that meter with your multimeter connected in series. They should give the same reading. If not, then your multimeter calibration is no good or the panel meter is not calibrated.

If you want consistent accurate readings from those panel meters then you will have to calibrate them against some other standard that you trust. That can be your DVM or it can be a NIST standard. I would be happy if the panel meter matched my uncalibrated Fluke 87-V. Unfortunately, panel meters either are accurate or they are not accurate. There is really nothing you can do to change the fullscale reading of the meter itself.

But if the meter is being used as a current monitor or a voltage monitor you can provide external circuitry to make the panel meter readings agree with your DVM.

[Willabe]

Doh, that's the word I wanted, multi meter instead of hand held meter.        

Thanks Sluckey, I will try a few more things, including using the 1 ohm R's I have.

Earlier, I did try my multi meter in series with the B+ from the 1st reservoir filter cap, set for mA's, red lead to filter cap positive end, black lead to down stream B+, got ~0.49mA's. I don't know why that didn't work. (Unless the meter leads need to be flipped?)

Then I put the multi meter in series with the PT CT, set for mA's, red lead to PT CT, black lead to ground, reads 56.8mA's.

Panel current meter still worked with both tests and read ~41mA's(200mA scale, coil reads, 0.1 ohms).

But..... 56.8mA - 41mA = 15.8mA.

I also did try putting my multi meter in series with the 6V6's K R, (but I think it was with the panel meter still connected?) set for mA's and got no reading/0.0dcv. I'll try again.

6V6 conditions, panel K meter read ~28mA;

6V6 plate = 308.6dcv, K = 17.61dcv, 250 470 ohm K R, screen 295.7dcv, screen R = 470ohm.

[Willabe]

I would be happy if the panel meter matched my uncalibrated Fluke 87-V.

I would too. 

Not saying my multi meter is as good as a Fluke but still I think it's in the ball park.

[shooter]

6V6 plate = 308.6dcv, K = 17.61dcv, 250 ohm K

what am I missing?  I get 70mA (17.6/250) and 20W plate.  Isn't a 6V6 like 9-11W?

[sluckey]

Seems very hot to me for a single 6V6.

[John]

Don't single 6V6s usually use a 470'ish ohm K resistor?

[sluckey]

Yes.

[Willabe]

Yes, my mistake. I just double checked, it's 470R.

Actual = 463 ohm.

[HotBluePlates]

Now the resulting plate+screen current seems much more reasonable; so does the dissipation.

[Willabe]

Yes and the math is very close to what my multi meter reads for K current. 

[Willabe]

Good news!   

I took out the large power tube K current panel meters and put in 1 of the small 100mA panel meters I have. I also put in a 1 ohm R in from the 8 pin power tube (relay) socket to the top of the 470KR.

Test results with SE 6V6;

Panel meter coil; 0.6 ohm, 100mA scale. Read; 40mA. (The large panel meter was reading only 28mA, way lower.)

Multi meter across the 1 ohm (measured 0.9 ohm with my multi meter), set for dcmV. Read; 36.2mV = 36.2mA.

Multi meter in series with the K ground wire, set for dcmA. Read; 36.8mA

Panel meter seems a little hotter then the other 2 ways I tested but for the BB I can live with it. If I need to I can measure across the 1R as I will leave it in place on the 8 pin socket.

[Willabe]

I also figured out why I couldn't get a mA reading before when I put my multi meter in series with the power tube, SE 6V6, K ground wire.

I've never used the mA setting on my meter before and there's a function button I didn't push that switches uA/mA/A readings to ac or dc.     

[Willabe]

 Just finished playing for an hour/hour 1/2 after changing the power tube K panel meter, SE/6V6.

What I noticed is this;

The 1st panel meter I had in there would sit at ~28mA at idol, but when I would hit hard on the strings that meter would jump up to ~40mA.

Now the replacement panel meter sits at idol ~40mA, but now when I hit the strings hard, the power tube K current panel meter AND the B+ current panel both drop down to ~37mA.

[Willabe]

I also added 3 more coupling caps (CC) to the rotary switch.

I bought them from Angela and they are the new Fender CC's. I'll post more later on their construction.

I want to play through them more before I can say what I think.   

[Willabe]

From a PM I sent to HBP today;

I know at 1st I posted that I wasn't hearing much of a difference at all then posted that I was. I think here's what happened;

The 1st rotary switch was not seating right and I was having to wiggle it to get it to seat. That was long enough for me to loose my ears focus. The new rotary switch works perfectly, bam!

I do hear a deference but I have to listen for it giving it my full attention. If I were talking with my wife and playing guitar and she was changing the switch while we were talking I don't think I'd hear it.

Maybe if she was flipping from the Malory white 150 or SoZo blue (the 2 thinnest and least amount of 3d caps sounding to my ears, least amount of harmonics?) to the MusiCap or yellow Jupiters (the fullest with the most 3d sound, largest amount of harmonics?) I would still hear it?          

I need to get my friend to play through the BB test rig set up as I flip positions on the switch and see if I can still hear it.

I think, maybe, that what I might hear is the 3d depth coming from the speaker but it's just a wild guess?         

[Willabe]

I just was playing for ~hour or so with the same set up as noted before. I don't know why but some days I hear a bigger difference then other days. And the differences are definitely more pronounced on some days. 

I've been thinking about this and I thought maybe it has to do with the Champs volume/single tone knob settings?

Not how loud dB wise, I can hear the amp/speaker just fine volume wise.

But I'm thinking that distortion is having an effect in hearing any differences in the different caps? I'm going to go with the word artifacts because there are extra bits/harmonics I'm hearing? I'm wondering if you have to push the cap enough to make these artifacts heard? Going past the caps linear range? That's when I hear them more clearly?  I'm going to move the CC rotary switch to V1b's CC and see if that position in the circuit pushes the CC's a little more?   
 
Also if having V1b's K bypass cap, 10uF, in or out, I have it on a 1P1T switch.

So I tried it at different volumes and different tone settings with V1b's K bypass cap in and out. It did make more of a difference.

I'm hearing the most difference, most artifacts, on the B/G/D/A strings with the amps volume up ~50% and the tone control up to ~2:00 with V1b's K bypass cap in the circuit. Cords and double stops on those strings are the easiest to hear the differences/artifacts/the extra bits/harmonics?

There's a 'grind' and a 'depth' on cords and double stops on these strings and settings that I'm hearing. It's more pronounced with some caps then others AND I hear it in different parts of the frequency range.