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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: My bread board  (Read 33941 times)

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Offline jojokeo

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Re: My bread board
« Reply #50 on: September 25, 2015, 11:22:28 am »
No particular reason other than I wanted to. It serves no purpose.

Must be a reason for the extra work.

"The ancient ways carry purpose and may not be forborne."
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is research.

Offline sluckey

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Re: My bread board
« Reply #51 on: September 25, 2015, 11:23:30 am »
Convenience of mounting the caps. It's fine to have one side of every cap tied together. Notice my schematic shows a cap connected between pins 6 and 6, or 5 and 5, or 4 and 4, etc. While this looks neat and orderly on a paper schematic, it would be a jumbled mess to actually mount the caps like that on the real switch. Impossible to do! Connecting all the pins of half the switch together allows you to connect the caps in a more manageable orderly fashion. Look at the layout. For example, you'll see that 220pF really connects between pins 6 and 3. And the 500pF connects between pins 5 and 2.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline Willabe

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Re: My bread board
« Reply #52 on: September 25, 2015, 11:25:29 am »
Wait........If all the positions on the left side/gray in the drawing are tied together then only the right side/yellow has to have the correct cap value soldered to the correct pin/position.

So the left side cap ends can go anywhere they fit.     

Offline Willabe

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Re: My bread board
« Reply #53 on: September 25, 2015, 11:26:33 am »
Convenience of mounting the caps.

Hah! I figured it out while you where posting.  :icon_biggrin:

Offline Willabe

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Re: My bread board
« Reply #54 on: September 25, 2015, 11:31:00 am »
It's fine to have one side of every cap tied together.

Yes, because their still isolated from each other on the other side.

Notice my schematic shows a cap connected between pins 6 and 6, or 5 and 5, or 4 and 4, etc. While this looks neat and orderly on a paper schematic, it would be a jumbled mess to actually mount the caps like that on the real switch. Impossible to do! Connecting all the pins of half the switch together allows you to connect the caps in a more manageable orderly fashion. Look at the layout. For example, you'll see that 220pF really connects between pins 6 and 3. And the 500pF connects between pins 5 and 2.

I saw that and started to think you made a mistake on the drawing. I should know better by now! 
That's how I figured it out.  :icon_biggrin: Messed me up for a little bit.   :laugh:

Thanks!
« Last Edit: September 25, 2015, 11:37:40 am by Willabe »

Offline Willabe

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Re: My bread board
« Reply #55 on: September 25, 2015, 11:35:50 am »
"The ancient ways carry purpose and may not be forborne."

   :laugh:    I've been here 5, 6 years?

Sluckey always has a reason why he does what he does.   :icon_biggrin:

Offline Willabe

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Re: My bread board
« Reply #56 on: September 25, 2015, 11:43:52 am »
Hah, and on the left side/gray their hard wired to the pole so if the switch contact ever gets corroded or even fails it won't matter.  :icon_biggrin:

Offline sluckey

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Re: My bread board
« Reply #57 on: September 25, 2015, 11:44:23 am »
Here's another way to do exactly the switching. This totally frees up the second section of that switch. This is from my AC-15 Lite conversion.

     http://home.comcast.net/~seluckey/amps/hammond/closeup.jpg

A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline Willabe

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Re: My bread board
« Reply #58 on: September 25, 2015, 11:46:44 am »
I get it, Nice! Thanks.  :icon_biggrin:

Offline jojokeo

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Re: My bread board
« Reply #59 on: September 25, 2015, 12:49:33 pm »
"The ancient ways carry purpose and may not be forborne."

   :laugh:    I've been here 5, 6 years?

Sluckey always has a reason why he does what he does.   :icon_biggrin:

Exactly!  :wink:
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is research.

Offline Willabe

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Re: My bread board
« Reply #60 on: October 09, 2015, 07:02:42 pm »
All right, I think I'm done!  :icon_biggrin:

I'm putting a Champ SE on the bread board (BB) 1st. And then I'll use that to try some true pitch shift vibratos (TPSV) .

Even though this is a BB, I wanted to change the K bypass cap and the plate coupling cap (CC) very fast to really hear the difference in real time and not from my ear's memory. I want to take out any second guessing.

To me this was very important especially for the CC's. I bought several different brands to see IF/how much different they might sound. 

So, for the 1st preamp gain stage, I made up a couple of brackets from some parts I had laying around to mount a couple of rotary switches. They both are movable so I can use them on other gain stages too. I did test and mark the outside foil on the CC's. (They don't look real pretty but they work fine.) 

For the K bypass caps I used a 2P6T rotary set up like this;

Position's;
1. Open/No bypass cap.
2. 0.68uF.
3. 2.2uF.
4. 4.7uF.
5. 10uF.
6. 26uF.

For the plate CC I used a 1P8T rotary (I had this here, bought it from Weber years ago, BIG honkin rotary  :laugh: ) I measured each cap for capacitance and I went through the Mallory 150's I had on hand and found a yellow (old) and white (new) that were both 22.02nF. All the other cap brands I had at lest 2 each and measured for the closest to 22.00nF. Rotary switch set up like this;

Position's;

1. Mallory 150/white/630v/22.02nF.
2. Mallory 150/yellow/630v/22.02nF.
3. Jupiter/yellow/600v/20.39nF.
4. Jupiter/red/600v/19.28nF.
5. SoZo/blue/400v/22.02nF.
6. Musicap/600v/23.00nF.
7. AuriCap XO/600v/20.78
8. Mojo Mustard/630v/22.05nF.

I didn't have room for the OD 225 and 715. I also don't have a SoZo mustard, I'll test those later.

Here's a few pics;

Now back to my CUBS playoff game against the St. Lou. red birds.  :icon_biggrin:     

Offline Willabe

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Re: My bread board
« Reply #61 on: October 09, 2015, 07:07:16 pm »
I also added a Fender Princeton 5F2A/tweed Deluxe 5E3 single tone control and installed a 2P1T switch to take it completely out of the circuit.  :icon_biggrin:    Just to hear the gain loss.

I did this because a Champ has limited gain with only 2 stages before the output tube. 
« Last Edit: October 09, 2015, 07:21:29 pm by Willabe »

Offline jojokeo

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Re: My bread board
« Reply #62 on: October 09, 2015, 11:38:49 pm »
Those switching pots look monstrous.
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is research.

Offline Willabe

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Re: My bread board
« Reply #63 on: October 10, 2015, 06:21:29 pm »
Yeah, 1 is.  :laugh:   

 I only used it because it's 8 throw and I had it here already, it came with the knob. The other is about the same size as a standard pot, after you trim the shaft.

Offline lego4040

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Re: My bread board
« Reply #64 on: October 15, 2015, 07:00:19 pm »
Yowza, that is crazy. I hope you dont have to move that once its done either.

Offline Willabe

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Re: My bread board
« Reply #65 on: October 16, 2015, 10:33:59 am »
Yowza, that is crazy. I hope you dont have to move that once its done either.

It's only 2'x2'. The close ups might be making it look much bigger?  :icon_biggrin:


Offline lego4040

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Re: My bread board
« Reply #66 on: October 16, 2015, 12:36:37 pm »
You can really tweak a circuit before you build, prototyping too

Offline Willabe

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Re: My bread board
« Reply #67 on: October 16, 2015, 11:44:25 pm »
You can really tweak a circuit before you build, prototyping too

Yep, that's 1 of the reasons I built it.  :icon_biggrin:

Offline Willabe

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Re: My bread board
« Reply #68 on: October 17, 2015, 12:38:54 am »
All right, I took the maiden voyage tonight with the bread board (BB) set up with a Champ 5wSE amp.  :icon_biggrin:

Everything worked! No smoke, and full sound at the speaker! ALL the BB meters are working too.   

I played for ~1 hour flipping the 6 throw K by pass switch and the 8 throw 1st coupling cap (CC) switch, and kicking in/out the single tone control (tweed Deluxe 5E3).

To start with, I ran it through a NOS 5Y3/new EH 6V6/new Tung-Sol 12AX7, 15" alnico WGS with a MoJo 759EX/290/0/290/75mA/PT, Classic Tone 40-18030/5w/50mA/8K/8ohm, SE OT.

My 1st thoughts are, switching the 1st stage CC, all the caps sound very, very, similar to me so far. Any little twist of the pick/accents or playing with my fingers/accents, made as much difference or way more than changing the CC. (Now, that was for lead and not full chords yet.    :dontknow:

As I try different tubes, power/rectifier/pre amp and different speakers I'll post more with ACV's/DCV's.                                   
« Last Edit: October 26, 2015, 10:30:30 am by Willabe »

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: My bread board
« Reply #69 on: October 17, 2015, 09:04:52 am »
I played for ~1 hour flipping the 6 throw K by pass switch and the 8 throw 1st coupling cap (CC) switch ...

My 1st thoughts are, switching the 1st stage CC, all the caps sound very, very, similar to me so far. Any little twist of the pick/accents or playing with my fingers/accents, made as much difference or way more than changing the CC. ...

But changing the cathode bypass cap made a big difference, right? All the coupling caps you used are polyester film & foil (though they have construction differences) except for the Auricap XO which is a polypropylene dielectric. With value and dielectric material being the same, I'd expect little if any difference, resulting mainly from construction details. It's nice to see your experiment is arriving at similar results.

Offline Willabe

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Re: My bread board
« Reply #70 on: October 17, 2015, 09:42:26 am »
With value and dielectric material being the same, I'd expect little if any difference, resulting mainly from construction details. It's nice to see your experiment is arriving at similar results.

That is what I'm hearing so far, have to play through the amp some more.

But changing the cathode bypass cap made a big difference, right?

Yes! Big difference in gain at lower and lower frequencies as you use a larger cap.

I also added a by-pass switch for the 2nd gain stage K cap. Right now I have a 10uF in there and pretty dramatic change in switching it in/out.

The tone control works well and is not dropping any gain that I can hear. I switched out the tone pot and the amps volume decreased. (I used a 2P/2T switch to take it fully out of the circuit.) So it's acting more like a boost at most any volume setting less than full up. Makes sense because it's by passing the hi end around the volume pot.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2015, 09:52:08 am by Willabe »

Offline Willabe

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Re: My bread board
« Reply #71 on: October 18, 2015, 12:42:37 pm »
Anybody have an idea about what to use to lube the 8T ceramic rotary switch?

It's difficult to get the switch to seat correctly by itself so it makes full contact so the cap is in the circuit. I have to wiggle it to get it seated properly.    :BangHead:

I'm not sure if it's the little brass(?) wheel that's not turning smoothly or if it's getting hung up on the ceramic bumps or a little of both.  :dontknow:

I have a can of spray silicon lube that I could spray on a Q-tip and apply it. Or maybe some of that brake white silicon lube they sell at the auto parts store? ~$1 for a little tube that I could use a tooth pick or thin wire to apply?

The wheel is pretty close to the pole contacts.   
 
« Last Edit: October 18, 2015, 12:46:43 pm by Willabe »

Offline Willabe

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Re: My bread board
« Reply #72 on: October 18, 2015, 12:43:07 pm »
.

Offline lego4040

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Re: My bread board
« Reply #73 on: October 18, 2015, 12:52:28 pm »
Look for electronic lube, I can take a picture of the canned stuff we use for our contacts and moving coils when I get to work today

Offline Willabe

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Re: My bread board
« Reply #74 on: October 18, 2015, 01:00:37 pm »
Is that different than pot cleaner/lube? Is it conductive?

I have a spray can of pot cleaner/lube but I don't think I should get anything that's conductive on the ceramic as the pole contacts are mounted in it.

Think of a ceramic tube socket, you can use contact cleaner on it but not cleaner with a conductive lube in it.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2015, 01:04:35 pm by Willabe »

Offline lego4040

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Re: My bread board
« Reply #75 on: October 18, 2015, 01:34:13 pm »
It's non conductive, either that or I'm living in Bettlejuice land and don't know it yet  :icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin:

Offline DummyLoad

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Re: My bread board
« Reply #76 on: October 18, 2015, 02:32:40 pm »

Offline lego4040

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Re: My bread board
« Reply #77 on: October 18, 2015, 03:37:50 pm »
We use the CRC 2-26 cleaner/lube for our electrical work

Offline Willabe

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Re: My bread board
« Reply #78 on: October 18, 2015, 04:03:22 pm »
Caig deoxit
http://store.caig.com/s.nl/sc.2/category.188/.f

Isn't it conductive? Maybe I'm misunderstanding them. Maybe they mean by cleaning the contacts their more conductive? See below from the Deoxit page;


KEY FEATURES:
  • Improves Conductivity
« Last Edit: October 18, 2015, 04:43:41 pm by Willabe »

Offline vibrolax

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Re: My bread board
« Reply #79 on: October 18, 2015, 05:17:29 pm »
DeOxit is not conductive.  Otherwise every device with switch contacts that I own would have blown sky-high.
It cleans the oxidation from the contacts
Jon

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: My bread board
« Reply #80 on: October 18, 2015, 05:25:04 pm »
Since I think you're trying to get the switch mechanism to turn more smoothly, I'd go with your original idea of a tiny bit of brake lube on the brass wheel & ceramic bumps.

The whole assembly looks spring-loaded. Is the spring not pulling the switched contact back in place? Could that mechanism/switch shaft be a little bound?

On second thought, I might just replace it with a better switch...  :dontknow:
« Last Edit: October 18, 2015, 06:49:32 pm by HotBluePlates »

Offline shooter

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Re: My bread board
« Reply #81 on: October 18, 2015, 05:59:17 pm »
Auto parts store also has hi-voltage grease for plug wires, pretty sure is non - conductive, pricey, silicon based.
Is that a *push-rotate-release* instead of just rotate?
Went Class C for efficiency

Offline DummyLoad

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Re: My bread board
« Reply #82 on: October 18, 2015, 06:24:51 pm »
Caig deoxit
http://store.caig.com/s.nl/sc.2/category.188/.f

Isn't it conductive? Maybe I'm misunderstanding them. Maybe they mean by cleaning the contacts their more conductive? See below from the Deoxit page;


KEY FEATURES:
  • Improves Conductivity
you don't  really think I'd recommend a product that was conductive to use on electronics, right?

it imporives conductivity of the. ontacts by deoxidizing.

--pete

Offline Willabe

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Re: My bread board
« Reply #83 on: October 18, 2015, 06:41:33 pm »
you don't  really think I'd recommend a product that was conductive to use on electronics, right?

it imporives conductivity of the. ontacts by deoxidizing.

Your right, I know you better than that.  :icon_biggrin:

Ok, deoxidizing the contacts. Thanks Pete and thanks lego and all the guys!

Offline Willabe

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Re: My bread board
« Reply #84 on: October 18, 2015, 07:18:45 pm »
Is that a *push-rotate-release* instead of just rotate?

Just checked, you had me worried, it's not a push-rotate-release.

Since I think you're trying to get the switch mechanism to turn more smoothly, I'd go with your original idea of a tiny bit of brake lube on the brass wheel & ceramic bumps.

The whole assembly looks spring-loaded. Is the spring not pulling the switched contact back in place?

I think it's the wheel hanging up (maybe on it's shaft?) and not rolling down into the bottom of the valley under the spring pressure. The spring U clip should force the contact to seat in the bottom of the valley.

I think you can see it in the pics, there's a U shaped bracket, 1 end/side is press fitted to the rotary shaft the other end/side moves up/down, because of the hills/valleys as you rotate the switch. So somethings binding.

Could that mechanism/switch shaft be a little bound?
I not sure, but maybe that's part of it? I'll try and get some silicon spray down in there.

Here's a pic of the white silicon brake lube, $1.46.   
« Last Edit: October 18, 2015, 09:09:00 pm by Willabe »

Offline DummyLoad

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Re: My bread board
« Reply #85 on: October 18, 2015, 10:31:11 pm »
these will work better...        

$2.77 each from our uncle mouser.

--pete

Offline Willabe

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Re: My bread board
« Reply #86 on: October 19, 2015, 02:25:14 pm »
Thanks! I'm gonna buy a few.  :icon_biggrin:

Edit; Just bought 4.
 
« Last Edit: October 19, 2015, 02:44:37 pm by Willabe »

Offline sluckey

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Re: My bread board
« Reply #87 on: October 19, 2015, 02:52:52 pm »
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline Willabe

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Re: My bread board
« Reply #88 on: October 19, 2015, 02:58:01 pm »
Oh well, that's all right, not much more, <$1 each, thanks anyway.  :icon_biggrin:

Offline lego4040

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Re: My bread board
« Reply #89 on: October 20, 2015, 07:03:22 am »
Wd40 is non conductive as well and everyone has that one

Offline Willabe

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Re: My bread board
« Reply #90 on: October 20, 2015, 08:25:12 pm »
Wd40 is non conductive as well and everyone has that one

Ok, thanks Lego, I was wondering about that.  :icon_biggrin:

Offline Willabe

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Re: My bread board
« Reply #91 on: October 20, 2015, 08:40:28 pm »
I realized yesterday that I forgot to install the B+ dropping R in between the screen B+ cap. So I had 22uF for the screen cap and 10uF for the pre with no dropping R between them so 32uF for the screen and pre.

It was motor boating (oscillating) when I turned up the volume past ~7 to full up, but I thought it was because of long runs on the bread board (BB). Because of the BB set up and since I don't play that distorted I didn't really care. Just put in a 22K dropping R, as per a 5F1, and fixed that.  :icon_biggrin:

I also forgot the 470 ohm screen R. I had it (470R) where the B+ plate to screen dropping R (10K) should go. Fixed that.   :icon_biggrin:

Will take some dcv's with tubes being used and post them next.       

Offline Willabe

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Re: My bread board
« Reply #92 on: October 20, 2015, 10:10:06 pm »
I was testing the heater DCV stand off and the humdinger pot.

I have a pretty good swing of DCV with the pot I put in on the DCV stand off board. With the B+ C node at 205.5dcv, which is where I tapped the DCV, I get 40.5dcv to 73.0dcv. I'm shooting for 70dcv to 80dcv. So that's pretty good, if I have a higher dcv from the tap/take off point I'll get a higher swing, might need to play with the voltage divider values, but fine for now.

BUT, the humdinger pots, I have 2, 1. for the 6x12A_7's and a 2nd for the power tube(s), (I have 2 @ 8 pins set up, to go with either a SE, PSE or a PP) didn't do any thing.  :BangHead:

So I tracked it down to the extra 50 ohm R's I put in series with the end legs of the humdinger pot.

I by-passed the pre-amp humdinger with short gator clip leads and then it worked. I could hear it very easily by ear. But tried the same with the power tubes heater humdinger pot and nothing, no change in hum that I can hear.

I take this to mean that the pre's benefited from it because the input signal is so low that the little bit of ripple(?) from the ACV heaters is leaking through and being amplified where as the power tubes signal is large enough to squash/kill that leakage?

Why did by-passing the extra R's make the humdinger work?    :think1:     

Schematics posted below,

(Edit; Fixed spelling errors.)
 
« Last Edit: October 21, 2015, 08:48:45 am by Willabe »

Offline Willabe

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Re: My bread board
« Reply #93 on: October 20, 2015, 11:22:52 pm »
Test voltages, set up with a Mojo PT 759EX, 290/0/290 @75mA, 6.3/?A, 5v/3A, input to BB set to 120acv with variack, with CLC B+ filter input before the B+ plate A node, Doug's Fender 2x6L6 choke@90mA, 5Y3 NOS JAN/PhillipsECG rectifier, JJ 6V6, new made Tung-Sol 12AX7, WGS 15" alnico, all at idol;

Reservoir B+; F&T/22uF/500v; 305dcv.

After choke, B+/A, plate node; Panasonic radial EH(?) series, 22uF/450v; 301.3dcv

B+/B node, screen; Panasonic radial EH(?) series, 22uF/450v; 257.2dcv.

Screen dcv taken off B+/B node with 470R, 256.2dcv.

B+/C node,Panasonic radial EH(?) series, 10uF/450v  pre-amp; 205.3.

BB meters;

Total current, measured at reservoir B+, just under <40mA.

Power tube 6V6 K current; ~23mA, with volume full up and bashing a full 6 string chord, just under 40mA. 6V6/250R/25uF bypass K cap. 

Odd thing, I measure for ACV ripple at the reservoir B+ node (F&T/22uF/500v), NO ACV?????? Maybe because it's SE/class A and only ~23mA at idol?
« Last Edit: October 21, 2015, 09:39:21 am by Willabe »

Offline Willabe

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Re: My bread board
« Reply #94 on: October 20, 2015, 11:49:58 pm »
Oh, when I added the B+ screen to pre-amp dropping R that lowered the B+ screen to pre-amp dcv.

Now it sounds WAY fuzzy after 5 on the volume. 

The higher pre-amp B+ sounded WAY better to me, just a taste thing.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2015, 09:40:48 am by Willabe »

Offline shooter

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Re: My bread board
« Reply #95 on: October 21, 2015, 08:02:41 am »
Quote
So I tracked it down to the extra 50R's I put in series with the end legs of the humdinger pot.

I by-passed the pre-amp humdinger with short gator clip leads and then it worked

I got lost here(not hard for me :BangHead:)

why did you add the 50R's?


Went Class C for efficiency

Offline Willabe

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Re: My bread board
« Reply #96 on: October 21, 2015, 08:38:53 am »
The pot I bought was only 100 ohms so I added some extra resistance after reading a Merlin article on humdinger pots, so as not to bleed as much current to ground through it.

I would have liked a 250 ohm or 500 ohm pot. 

Offline Ed_Chambley

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Re: My bread board
« Reply #97 on: October 21, 2015, 12:01:13 pm »
Great stuff, thanks for sharing!

Why the fuse?  Just cause?  Do you fuse your heaters in your amp builds?

Offline Willabe

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Re: My bread board
« Reply #98 on: October 21, 2015, 12:41:31 pm »
Why the fuse?  Just cause?  Do you fuse your heaters in your amp builds?

Just in case I do something wrong.  :laugh:     I had those fuse holders sitting here for years, might as well use them.

I've never fused heaters in an amp.

Hey, my 1P12T rotary switches just got here.   :mail1:
« Last Edit: October 21, 2015, 01:10:07 pm by Willabe »

Offline sluckey

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Re: My bread board
« Reply #99 on: October 21, 2015, 12:43:45 pm »
I need to order a couple small switches from Mouser. About $12. How bad were the shipping charges on your small order?
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

 


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