5E3 Deluxe Using 6L6GC

[plexi50]

I have a 5E3 Deluxe. I am trying a pair of 6L6GC power tubes with a 5U4GB rectifier. Lots of full headrom. A bit too much i think at times. I dont see a feedback resistor to tame the headroom a bit. Any other options? Glasses?

[sluckey]

Try a pair of 6V6s and a NOS 5Y3.

[FYL]

You may also try some very soft - ie. drawing little current - 5881s or Russian 6P3Cs.

[plexi50]

Try a pair of 6V6s and a NOS 5Y3.

Ha!!!!!!  

Thats what was in it. A friend wants to use the 6L6GC tubes for more headroom.  The amp though is what it is. 6V6's do sound best

I should suggest another amp

[bigsbybender]

Thats what was in it. A friend wants to use the 6L6GC tubes for more headroom. 

I built a 5E5 for that very purpose (similar to a 6L6 5E3 but with paralleled triode preamps). It is too loud for most situations if you're looking for a balance between clean and overdrive using the volume control on the guitar. It's a great sounding amp in the right room (outdoors) or volume situation. I'm guessing it to be 30-40W output and it's still too loud!

That said, the 5E3 has been the amp that I've built the most of. One suggestion that I've had for people that gig with them is to buy a volume pedal. Most Volume pedals have a "Minimum or Threshold" setting, which is the volume of the lowest setting of the pedal. Set the "Minimum" to the loudest clean tone that the amp will do, then rock it forward for grit. It works great!

The other options may be, 12AU7 instead of the 12AY7.  Feedback may help too, but you may lose some of that "loose or sloppy" low end that is part of the Tweed Tone.

j.

[JB]

Doesn't Neil Young use 6L6's in his Deluxe?  And they run a fan on it all the time 'cos it gets a bit hot!

Doesn't sound like he has much headroom in that thing though!

[plexi50]

From what i am hearing this amp would probably sound killer driving a pair of Celestion 12" 75's. It wants to push more air than the 10" Jensen can handle at higher volume levels. It's not a tweed deluxe any longer.

[bigsbybender]

5E3 should have a 12" in it already.

[plexi50]

Your right bigsbybender. Having a real altimers month

[tubeswell]

Hi plexi50

(so you're running the 6L6s at 1/2 the 'normal' 5E3 load resistance already?)

If you are not happy with the headroom, a 5E3 cathodyne PI won't drive the 6L6s grids to clipping, but you could try:

1) upping the driver stage's plate resistor to 220k, and

2) upping the plate and cathode resistors on the cathodyne to 100k.

3) opening up the B+ supply at the PI position to get a bigger signal swing, by either:

a) using a smaller supply resistors - like 470R to 1k as the first resistor, and 4k7 to 10k as the second supply resistor, or

b) using a choke (i.e.: CLC filter) in the first position to get more voltage at the PI supply point, and playing around with the second supply resistor.

Another thing you could try, possibly combined with the above, is a chunky (5W) unbypassed 4k7 between the screen supply node, and both screens. I built a 5E3 for 6L6s that had a switchable CRC-CLC filter and found that it sounded good with the unbypassed screen resistor in the 'CLC' mode. See attached schematic

JM2CW

[phsyconoodler]

Plexi said: "A bit too much i think at times. I dont see a feedback resistor to tame the headroom a bit. Any other options? Glasses?"

  The 5E3 doesn't have a negative feedback loop.You'd have to have really good glasses to find one.

The beauty of a 5E3 with 6L6's IS the headroom.A nice pedal in front is the ticket here.Try an Alnico speaker.It will break up nicely a long time before the C12N.That speaker should not be anywhere near a 5E3 IMHO
  And the inpedance mismatch is not good for it in the long run unless you are using a 6.6k OT.
 
Tubeswell,
  He has TOO MUCH headroom,so your mods will make it even worse for him.

[plexi50]

Thanks all for the info.  The speaker i think isnt that good.  It almost sounds like the speaker has a blanket over it at higher volume levels. I know a good speaker is KING and a must have when having large headroom. I bet a 15" would sound killer

[tommytornado]

I agree with Phsy...  That's the wrong speaker for the bassy 5E3 circuit.  To my ears, higher wattage efficient speakers with 1.5"+ voice coils don't sound balanced in a 5E3, the treble tones get covered up with bass (i.e. sounds like a blanket is covering the amp).  I would think this would be more so the case when using 6L6's.  I would suggest the Webervst.com Signature Series 12S ceramic or the Mojotone.com AV12C ($35-40+ ship) for the 5E3 circuit.  Either one of these speakers will let a 5E3 sound like a 5E3 and are loud enough to gig with.  If $$ is no object, I'd go the Weber Vintage series route (12A or F125).  That C12N belongs in a Hot Rod Deluxe.. not a Tweed Deluxe! 

Circuit wise, for more headroom/to help make the 5E3 more usable with modern/higher output pickups, I would:
-Reduce the shared V1 cathode bypass cap to 5 to 10uF/25v (from 25uF) 
-Reduce the bright channel's coupling cap down to .022uF (from .1uF).  Play humbucker & P90 guitars through the bright ch, strats/tele's through the norm ch)
- Install a grid stopper on the PI.  Replace the wire from the board to V2 pin 7 with a 100K to 500K resistor.   
- The voltage drop of a 5Y3 and a 5U4G are pretty close (50ish volts).  I would try a GZ34 for more headroom.
- Put a 16uf/450v filter cap in parallel with the A node filter (the filter cap that feeds the OT/red wire).
- I really really like the Tung Sol 5881 RI in my tweeds.  They'll pull a little less current than 6L6's as well.  note:  The biggest issue with using 6L6's in a 5E3 is can the power transformer handle the current draw.  I wouldn't put 6L6's in a 5E3 with a PT that's rated at/around 90-100mA that's going to get gigged with.  You really want a PT that's rated 150mA +, but can probably get away with using 5881's with a PT that's rated @ 120mA ish..
-Also..  we never talked about V1.  You gotta have a 12AY7 or a 5751 in V1 to get any headroom out of a 5E3.  I prefer a 5751 in V1 and a 12AT7 in V2/PI.  A 12AX7 in V2 is a little to hot with a 5751 to my ears. 

[phsyconoodler]

Hey guys!!! He has TOO MUCH HEADROOM.He wants it to break up earlier.

  Dropping the voltage to the preamp will help with that too.below 150v on the preamp plates will help it break up earlier.
I absolutely LOVE the sound of the Mojotone 12" AV12C,which is likely made by Weber anyway,but it's cheap and sounds fantastic.

[jojokeo]

In mine I run a Heritage g12H for headroom and it sounds bright w/ thundering lows and has HUGE projection - very balanced. If I want more authentic tone w/ more breakup I use a Weber alnico 12" -125A-S w/ the ribbed curved seem. Two awesome speakers IMHO.

[tubeswell]

I still think upping the PI driver stage's plate resistor to 220k will 'lower the headroom'. And getting more PI swing into the 6L6 grids with 100k plate and cathode resistors on the cathodyne swinging from a higher HT voltage at the PI node may work in combination with that (which is why I suggested them in that order).

[worth]

Anybody mention bias ?.. maybe you need to decrease the value of the cathode resistor to be near 100% plate dissapation.. 250 ohms is not always the correct value.

[fud]

Don't overlook the KT-66.  It will have about the same load as the 6V6 with similar breakup but occurring later, giving more headroom.  If your PT already has the spare heater current it shouldn't be an issue.

[phsyconoodler]

HE WANTS LESS HEADROOM!!!!! READ THE POSTS BEFORE OFFERING ADVICE!!!!!

[jojokeo]

  Here ya go p-

[crashtm1]

Didn't want to start a new post,, most is covered here..
I have a 5e3 that I built 10+ years ago...
I copied the Tweedy deluxe that was out there..
A beefier OT and PT from Allen Amps...
 I love the tone....period...
My only issue is volume....
I have the PT and OT for a tweed bassman laying around ..
 Looking at the ceriatone 5x3, can I just swap out trannies and up the
size of the power resistor and the rectifier..
 Can it be that simple??
Seen here...
http://ceriatone.com/images/layoutPic/fenderLayout/5X3Ceriatone.jpg

[tubeswell]

I have the PT and OT for a tweed bassman laying around ..
 Looking at the ceriatone 5x3, can I just swap out trannies and up the
size of the power resistor and the rectifier..
 Can it be that simple??
Seen here...
http://ceriatone.com/images/layoutPic/fenderLayout/5X3Ceriatone.jpg

Yup for running 6L6s, the tweed bassman OT and PT will be fine, and use a 10W cathode resistor like you suggest

[crashtm1]

Ohhh, so that's a cathode resistor.. ... Now I know that , the input resistor and coupling caps, everything else, I'm in the dark..
 Is there a layout somewhere that points out exactly what  and where things are located?
That would be helpful when people are using techy words.. :shocked:
   Thanks....
 

[crashtm1]

I wanted to post the 2 PTs that I'm dealing with..
The tranny 330-0-330v is the original one that is currently in the amp..



Here are the specs on the one i plan to install ...



I need some confirmation on wire hook ups..
From what I can tell..
From the new one..
Yellows..(2) rectifier pins 2/8
Reds...(2) rectifier pins 4/6
Greens..(2) pilot/heaters
Blacks..(2) power and common
Red w/ yellow to cathode

The questions.. No use and tape off separately???
Orange, green w/white (6.3v center tap), Red w/green (bias)

[tubeswell]

Ohhh, so that's a cathode resistor.. ... Now I know that , the input resistor and coupling caps, everything else, I'm in the dark..
 Is there a layout somewhere that points out exactly what  and where things are located?
That would be helpful when people are using techy words.. :shocked:
   Thanks....
 

http://www.diystompboxes.com/pedals/tubedummy.html

[tubeswell]

Yellows..(2) rectifier pins 2/8

yep (and the B+ is taken from pin 8 as well, and goes to the +ve side of the reservoir (1st) filter cap).

Reds...(2) rectifier pins 4/6

yep

Greens..(2) pilot/heaters

yep. You can either use the green/white heater winding CT (OR you can make an artificial ground reference with 2 x 100R resistors, one from each side of the heater winding, each going) to ground with the power amp ground returns  (BUT do not use both methods at the same time - just use one way or the other).

For an elevated heater - put this preferred ground return point to pin 8 of one of the 6V6 sockets (alongside the cathode resistor ;-) - this will elevate the heater winding to the same voltage as the 6V6 cathodes, which eliminates any source of heater hum noise getting into the pre-amp signal.

Blacks..(2) power and common

yep. Put the Mains fuse on the active/phase side (and then the mains switch, and then the PT primary). With the fuse holder, remember to wire the mains/hot side of the phase/active wire to the tip-end of the fuse holder (and not the sleeve end) in order to save accidental electrocution if you have the fuse cap off.

Red w/ yellow to cathode

Nope - red-yellow is the HT centre tap, and ideally that goes to exactly the same ground return pint as your reservoir filter cap ground return for quietest operation.  See R.G. Keen's article (attached)

The questions.. No use and tape off separately???
Orange, green w/white (6.3v center tap), Red w/green (bias)

See my earlier comment about the heater CT. You don't need the (red/green) bias tap in the 5E3, so put some heat-shrink over the bare end and tuck it away where its not going to short onto anything/the chassis.

[crashtm1]

Success!!!  Sounds awesome..
Thanks for all the help.. Now ,, off to enjoy the new toy..

[crashtm1]

OK.... This thing ROCKS..... Blues as Blues can be,,,, and takes the OD pedals perfectly....
  I've got a noticeable hum going on... No problem with other amps I have, just this one... It does get louder as my guitar gets closer..(pickups and cavity are well shielded).
 Since this was one of my first builds I didn't use the shielded wires on the input... Could doing this solve the issue?

[HotBluePlates]

  I've got a noticeable hum going on... It does get louder as my guitar gets closer..(pickups and cavity are well shielded).

Sure sounds like hum/noise picked up by the guitar pickups.

Any noise from the amp with nothing plugged in? If no, the problem is not with the amp.

[crashtm1]

Yeah.. Same noise unplugged... I plugged in my bias king and got a 50ma reading...
Tried different tubes.. I also noticed with no cord plugged in, when I turn the volume up past 2 I get a high pitched squeal .. May not have anything to do with the him but thought I'd mention it..
I do have a shielded cable on V2 pin 2 going under the board going to the first volume pot...