5e3 Problem/Question

[JavaJunkie]

I am newb building my 1st 5e3 got it all done and fired it up

All Good Except... it's all Overdrive/Crunch (which I have to say sounds absolutely fantastic) but would like some clean  ie now if the amp is at 1  I'm getting no clean sound just OD/crunch...

So I removed the pre amp a12AX7 and sub'd in a 5751 and then a 12AT7 still all OD/Crunch then placed a 12AT7 in the PI and left the 12AT7 in the pre...  NO JOY (well actually I really like the sound but am on a mission for clean tone also)

So checked the forum
http://www.el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=395.0
and got this post which was very helpful

I changed the Cathode resistor to 2.7K and and Coupling cap to .022uf (on one side of the Preamp tube)which lessened the crunch somewhat but still not getting clean.

My question is would I be better off in changing out the 22k 3 watt resistor to a 27K 3 watt (I am using a Hammond choke between the A-B Filter caps) than going through the rest of the Cathode resistors and changing them as changing the 1st one didn't result in that large of an improvement?  Or is that the dumbest idea since "NEW" Coke???

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated

Regards

Ron

[phsyconoodler]

A) the original 5E3 used a 12AY7 in V1
B) what guitars are you using?What pickups?
c) hot pickups and 5E3's are all distortion.
D)Turn down the guitar
E) use a 12AU7 in V1 as a low-gain alternative if you don't want to change the pickups
F) lower the pickup height in the guitar
g) add a high-pass filter to your guitars so you can turn down and get killer cleans and not lose the highs.
H) blend the volume controls to get optimum cleans
I) use a more efficient speaker that doesn't break up soon

  My favourites are A,C,F, and G
Changing the resistor is not a good idea because HIGHER voltage preamps are cleaner sounding.
J) use a 5V4 rectifier tube,more voltage = cleaner.
K) remove cathode bypass cap on V1 or use a smaller one like a .68uf or 1 uf.
L)

[JavaJunkie]

phsyconoodler

Thanks for the assist!!!


>>A) the original 5E3 used a 12AY7 in V1

Ok I will go to the Big Box Guitar Store and obtain a 12AY7 (and a 12AU7 if they have it) to see what this does before making any additional changes... (You dont know how it pains me to give them business but 12AY and AU are not overly abundant here this Friday afternoon)


>>B) what guitars are you using?What pickups?
Les Paul ... I dont think the PU's are exceptionally HOT but will try my Strat and Tele and see what I get not very hopeful for different results but better to try and be sure...


>>D)Turn down the guitar
Went through all possible combos(ok maybe not ALL but most) of Guitar volume Amp Vol 1 and Vol 2-Tone settings... NO GO when I obtain the 12AY I will run through them again to see what the result is


>>I) use a more efficient speaker that doesn't break up soon
Currently using the Weber 30 watt Blue dog but I have some others here I will hook up to...


>>Changing the resistor is not a good idea because HIGHER voltage preamps are cleaner sounding.
I had a feeling I was having a "New Coke" idea...   

>>J) use a 5V4 rectifier tube,more voltage = cleaner.
 I'm assuming this is a direct replacement for the 5y3 (ie I would not have to rewire the socket???)


>>K) remove cathode bypass cap on V1 or use a smaller one like a .68uf or 1 uf.
If the 12AY doesnt do the trick I may try this one...

Thanks Again

Cheers

Ron

[tommytornado]

Plug your humbucker guitar's into one of the #2 holes, that's what they're there for.  Also, at anything near gig volume, even with a 12AY7 in V1, there's not going to be much clean headroom.  This is the definition of an amp that you roll the volume on your guitar down and lighten up on pick attack to get a 'cleanish' tone... And that's where the magic is, controlling the tone with your hands instead of stomping on a pedal.  Also, if the OT is the stock 12-15watter.. there's just not that much iron there for headroom.  I have a deluxe reverb OT in my 5E3.   

Ultimately you should be OK with v1=5751, v2=12AT7.  If you're going to leave the Blue Dog in the amp, I would suggest yanking the bypass cap off V1 and maybe replace it with a .1uF.. or just leave your 2.2K or was it 2.7k.  The 5E3 circuit is very bassy and was designed around a low wattage/efficiency alnico speaker with a 1" or 1.25" voice coil.  The Blue Dog has a 1.75 or 2" VC, and is very efficient/loud and can push a lot of bass.  To my ears, the high mids and treble freq's get swallowed up some because the when using an efficient 12" with a 1.5-2" VC in a 5E3.  The smaller voice coiled speakers compensate for the bassy circuit.  My fav speakers in a 5E3 are the Weber Signature Series 12S ceramic ($30+ship) or the mojotone.com AV12C ($40+ship).  On the other hand, some people can make a blue dog work in a 5E3 and really like em'..   

Oh.. one other easy suggestion to reduce some of the distortion in the cathodyne PI.  Replace the wire from the board to pin 7 on V2 (the PI's input grid) with a 100 or 220K resistor.  You can go as high as 1M, so I've read.  I've put 100K's in my 5F4 and 5E3 and like the little bit of clarity it gives me. 

[FYL]

Went through all possible combos(ok maybe not ALL but most) of Guitar volume Amp Vol 1 and Vol 2-Tone settings... NO GO when I obtain the 12AY I will run through them again to see what the result is

Try LP in Inst. 1 or Inst. 2 if 1 is too hot. Set Inst. volume between 3 and 4. Set Mic. volume between 9 and 10. play. Fine tune using the tone control beginning at 7 and going up. Use your geetar volume pots. Enjoy.

Inst. = channel 2, also called Bright; Mic. = channel 1, also called Normal.

[HotBluePlates]

What has been said up to now has been on target. But if you try the amp with a strat/tele, the volume should go to at least 4 or so before any obvious distortion (maybe a little higher).

Are you certain you used 1M audio pots? If you use linear, turning to 1-2 is much like an audio pot on 7-8.

Are you certain there are no wrong-value resistors? Many (myself included) have used a wrong -value Xicon carbon comp because the brown color band is a very similar color to a yellow color band. Orange isn't very-different on these either. So you could easily have a 100 ohm, 10k or 100k resistor swapped. 470k in place of a desired 470 ohm resistor is *very* common.

[JavaJunkie]

>>Are you certain you used 1M audio pots? If you use linear, turning to 1-2 is much like an audio pot on 7-8.
Yes but I double checked anyway I have PEC KA1051S24 pots in all three positions (Vol 1 Vol2 and Tone)


>>Are you certain there are no wrong-value resistors? Many (myself included) have used a wrong -value Xicon >>carbon comp because the brown color band is a very similar color to a yellow color band. Orange isn't
>>very-different on these either. So you could easily have a 100 ohm, 10k or 100k resistor swapped. 470k in >>place of a desired 470 ohm resistor is *very* common.
It being my first build I checked each value of Resistor/Cap/Pot etc etc prior to placement/solder and then I
have checked and rechecked Resistor values but you know what I'm going to Re Check again....

I have attached the diagram that I used to wire the 5e3  the only question I had was about the "Safety Resistor" on the Speaker Jacks I assumed it was there in case of some one pulling the speaker cord while playing or leaving it out????  Anyway I installed it (I have rechecked the value and it is 470 Ohm... This wouldnt I assume be causing my "issue" (but I dont know so I thought I'd ask????)

Also I dont know who the individual is who did this (I'm assuming Visio) pdf but Thank you very much SUPER Helpful!!!!! ( I believe I got it off this site a year or so ago)

[FYL]

the only question I had was about the "Safety Resistor" on the Speaker Jacks I assumed it was there in case of some one pulling the speaker cord while playing or leaving it out???? 

Yup. It doesn't cause problems and has a negligible impact on sound.

Also I dont know who the individual is who did this (I'm assuming Visio) pdf but Thank you very much SUPER Helpful!!!!! ( I believe I got it off this site a year or so ago)

Barry using Visio according to the pdf properties.

[JavaJunkie]

>>>>>Barry using Visio according to the pdf properties.

LOL!!! 

Ok Didnt know about PDF properties until now (had to look on the menus in acrobat to find it) Learn something new everyday!!

[JavaJunkie]

Gentlemen

>>Ultimately you should be OK with v1=5751, v2=12AT7.  If you're going to leave the Blue Dog in the amp, I would suggest yanking the bypass cap off V1 and maybe replace it with a .1uF.. or just leave your 2.2K or was it 2.7k.  I added a 100k resistor to pin #7 on V2(PI) and remove cathode bypass cap on going to pin 3 on V1 and replaced it with 100v .047uf cap (was thinking if it didnt work I'd then remove cap entirely)

So I tried this and it seemed to work!!! I switched to a Strat and for the most part was getting clean tone.  YES!!!

Now the bad news as I am watching the amp the 6V6 Power Tube closest to the Speaker Jacks(Connected to Blue lead from OT) starts glowing Cherry Red...  Cherry Red and tubes are not my favorite color combo... (The one next to the Rect(5Y3) appears to be OK ie no cherry red glow...)


Even with the amp down at 1 one volume(both Channels) So I shut it down and get DMM... refire it back up and start checking voltages both tubes appear to have all connection voltages in similar range...  I check connection to Speaker and it appears good but I remove my temp solder job and install perm install with crimped tabs just to be sure... 

Any ideas on how to proceed???

[sluckey]

Swap positions with the 6V6 tubes. Does the cherry follow the tube or stay at the same socket?

[JavaJunkie]

Swap positions with the 6V6 tubes. Does the cherry follow the tube or stay at the same socket?

I switched to a different 6V6(ie removed the glowing tube and inserted a new one ) and it glowed I did not then switch sockets... I assume this would place the problem on the socket?

[FYL]

The redplating 6V6 draws too much current. Presuming that the tubes are somewhat matched, check the coupling cap between the cathodyne and the 6V6, it could be leaky. Check the 220K ground connection as well as the resistors around the cathodyne, one or more could be off, unbalancing the PP.

[JavaJunkie]

FYL

Thank YOU!!!

Attached is the layout drawing I started checking all the ground connections as you suggested and found the 1.5K resistor(which goes to pin 8 on V2) and the 1 meg (which goes to pin 7 on V2 ) are not grounded  The two turrets are laced the Resistors show proper resistance across each of them 1.5K and 1 meg respectively The 56k resistor is soldered to the 1.5k turret and shows proper value when checked there is solder on both turret holes  (looks good as far as I can see....) Yet I get OL when checked on DMM   WTF?????

Checked it multiple times because at first I didnt believe the meter ... (was so unsure that I got out my old crappy meter to check and see that the Fluke was not FLUKING with me ...ok that was bad... but I did get the old one out because I still dont believe it but...  No ground....)

OK I assume I want to correct this to have them connecting to ground???

See drawing for Blue Box area in question

Next question Would this have caused the original OD no clean issue or is it not really involved???

Thanks again to all who have assisted!!!

[sluckey]

But is the left end of that 56K really connected to chassis ground?

This could very well be related to the OD problem/symptom.

[JavaJunkie]

Yes  I have rechecked the 56K 4 times since I last posted. I have ground

When I read you reply to me I figured ok I screwed around with the wire going to pin 7 on V2 so I must have "jimmy jacked" some connection there either the cap or a wire all checked out good...   

Then I read the part were you said to check for ground and to be quite honest I was like come on dude I got ground... 

But knowing what I call the Grateful Dead rule ($#it Happens) I thought ok I'll humor him and recheck all the grounds so I started at the cathode bypass cap turret to the Chassis... GOOD! then to the other cathode bypass turret ... Good and just walked on over the the 56k resistor Good across to the next 1.5K... No JOY!!!  I havent had lunch today I've been working trying to get this thing going so I thought I'm starting to lose it... Recheck   NO  Lunch break!!!  Come back from Lunch/Dinner

Anywho after about 15-20 times checking it I go and get the other meter  NO!!! same result....  I honestly can't explain how this can be( as the "weld" looks perfect) but I'm about to take the soldering iron and make a connection.... 

Sorry for doubting ya!!!!

Cheers!!!!

[sluckey]

and found the 1.5K resistor(which goes to pin 8 on V2) and the 1 meg (which goes to pin 7 on V2 ) are not grounded

I may just not be understanding what you're saying yet. But, those two resistors are not supposed to be grounded. There is a 56K between them and ground. Maybe a better way to phrase this would be...

Set your meter to read resistance and turn the amp off. Put one meter lead on chassis ground and put the other lead directly on V2-8 socket. Do you measure about 57.5K (+10%)? If not, what do you read?

[FYL]

OK I assume I want to correct this to have them connecting to ground???

Nope. Both are connected to the 56K.

[JavaJunkie]

Gentlemen

A little poem...

Java was without tone
Java could not live a full life without it
So Java asked the Gods of Tone to grant him some...
Not all... Just some...

The Gods of Tone sent Java to the Temple of Tubes
And all was good
Java ordered the parts so that he could
and upon his alter to the Gods of Tone Java strives to be one
But there was a problem 

Java had pure thoughts but
Java did not have clean tone...
So Java joined the Forum Oracle of Wisdom as a junior member
He hoped he would have tone before the first of (wait for it) NOVEMBER!

Then Java listened to the Wisdom that came upon him
and found the connection that was lacking
and now he has tone so clean and clear
He will have to remove the Cathode bypass resistor to bring back the crunch that is so pleasing to his ear!

OK Sorry for the large amount of bandwidth noise

But I AM BEYOND Excited!!!!

Fixed the problem (Yes I know that I need 56K between the two resistors and ground (I have as I recall 57.3K) I should have been clearer in my earlier posts... 
The amp sounds AWESOME (I've lost the crunch so I'm probably going to undo some of the mods I did to try and clean it up)

12 Watts... Seriously thats all...

I just blew the doors off of my nearest neighbors...  (I'm sure they're loving me BIG right about now)

And of course now the most important part!

I cannot express how grateful I am for the support/assistance and help given to me

THANK YOU to all!!!

Have a happy and safe Halloween!!!

Regards

Ron