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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: To use or not to use a VVR?  (Read 14607 times)

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Offline jojokeo

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To use or not to use a VVR?
« on: November 22, 2010, 09:14:51 am »
Hi all,

I've drawn up a cathode biased SE EL34 design & plan on getting appx 11w out of it that also uses the VVR circuit. I'm getting ready to build but since I have not used the VVR circuit before, I'm second guessing if it's worth having it or not for an amp w/ this power level? Also are there any building or layout issues that I need to know about or beware of? All comments are appreciated, thanks in advance.
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Offline echuta13

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Re: To use or not to use a VVR?
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2010, 09:26:29 am »
I would say it's worth it.  An amp with only a few watts can still blow you out of the bedroom. 
"When choosing between two evils I always like to try the one I've never tried before."

Offline kagliostro

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Re: To use or not to use a VVR?
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2010, 09:33:19 am »
To insert VVR in cathode bias amps is not so difficult (a little bit more for fixed bias circuits)

the question is that an amp with VVR will have some of the effects due to tube saturation early (at low volume level) of that do the same amp without VVR

Is that you want from your SE ?

say that

build the amp and have some "sound" test before finishing definitively it

If you like it leave as is

If you like to experiment with different sounds try to add VVR and listen to the difference

keep your choice after some practical try

Kagliostro

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Offline tubenit

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Re: To use or not to use a VVR?
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2010, 09:45:26 am »
I had VVR in my 6BM8 56T that was probably 7-9 watts range.

And I definitely used the VVR both in playing at home, recording and actually even playing with the band (given the amp was mic'd).

With respect, Tubenit

Offline Fresh_Start

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Re: To use or not to use a VVR?
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2010, 10:19:12 am »
In my experience, an 11 watt amp can be pretty loud with the right speaker/cab combination.  VVR might be really useful.  I agree with the advice to build the amp without VVR first, then add the extra circuitry later.

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Chip
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Offline FYL

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Re: To use or not to use a VVR?
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2010, 10:33:03 am »
VVR and similar circuits are useful in most amps, including small SE models.


Offline jojokeo

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Re: To use or not to use a VVR?
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2010, 11:12:20 am »
the question is that an amp with VVR will have some of the effects due to tube saturation early (at low volume level) of that do the same amp without VVR
I'm sorry, not sure what you mean? Are you saying the amp will sound similar at low volumes w/ or w/out the VVR?

Tubenit - do you not have that amp anymore?

*For this build, I plan on it using terminal strips so modifying the power supply later won't be so easy. I could build everything into the design and simply jumper over that part when I initially get it going but I don't anticipate any problems w/ the build. I must confess that I've built SS amps in the past when I was younger and didn't know any better  :huh:
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Offline tubenit

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Re: To use or not to use a VVR?
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2010, 11:50:42 am »
Quote
Tubenit - do you not have that amp anymore?

No, I sold it to someone who liked it alot. I have a personal rule of thumb to try to limit myself to 3 guitars and no more than 3 amps. Selling it allowed me to fund another amp. It was a great sounding amp, IMO. I had a chance to hear someone else use it with a band and it cut thru the mix just great.

With respect, Tubenit

Offline jojokeo

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Re: To use or not to use a VVR?
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2010, 12:17:12 pm »
I have a personal rule of thumb to try to limit myself to 3 guitars and no more than 3 amps.

I admire that. It seems like a tough rule for you to follow for how much you like to build? My wife would love for that to be my rule. I've got a lot things to sell but I've been waiting for the economy to pick up some for my better items. This doesn't look too promising w/ the current admin though.
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Offline mresistor

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Re: To use or not to use a VVR?
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2010, 02:57:25 pm »
I have a personal rule of thumb to try to limit myself to 3 guitars

Is that 3 electric, or 3 acoustic, or a combination of both?

I couldn't imagine my world withonly 3 guitars....  :huh:

Offline tubenit

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Re: To use or not to use a VVR?
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2010, 04:25:31 pm »
By the end of this Dec, I will probably have 2 electrics, an acoustic and two amps.

Here's the story .........., I build guitars as a hobby also & have build over 20 guitars which includes two acoustics. And I have built over 20 different amps (quite a few of those were rebuilding a chassis with a new design).

So I've had a chance to figure out what I like and works well for me. That allows me to keep the "best" of the guitars (that fit my personal taste) and the best of the amps(that fit the tone I like) & makes it easier to let go of the rest.

I've lived in 38 different homes in my life, so I developed something of a mindset to let go of what I don't really need and hang on to what I really enjoy and value.

With respect, Tubenit


Offline sluckey

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Re: To use or not to use a VVR?
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2010, 05:13:34 pm »
♫ Well I'm a travelin' man, made a lot of stops ♫...
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline zendragon63

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Re: To use or not to use a VVR?
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2010, 07:27:59 pm »
jojokeo, with the exception of really low power amps, I put the VVR on nearly every build (but then I prefer the sound of driven power tube harmonic distortion over preamp grind). The guy that ended up with the SE KT77 (Da 'Toad) I did earlier in the year initially didn't see the advantage of a MV AND a VVR until he had it for several months in different playing situations; he found his 'sound' at nearly any reasonable volume situation and he could always stick a mike in front of it and run it through the PA/monitor. Also if you don't need to run all 11 watts all the time, you will save some wear and tear on the final by reducing the power output on sometimes pricey tubes.

Pretty simple circuit and adds ~$25 to the cost. Take care handling the Mosfet and heat sink it well. Regards

dennis
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Offline jojokeo

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Re: To use or not to use a VVR?
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2010, 08:45:04 pm »
Thanks Dennis and everyone else too. This will be my first go at the VVR. I have to do it simply for the case of building it, using it and trying it out. Pretty much every new amp I build has to have an element in it that I haven't done before so it keeps me learning and pushing myself in some way. It seems pretty basic but the power supply's layout is not as easy once everything gets put together w/ the extra parts.
I was going to to make the preamp a bit more elaborate but decided to make it a simple performer w/ a number of biasing & bypass options going for power tube tone as you're describing. I won't be playing this to "11" much I don't think so the VVR should help a lot.
On another note, It appears I may get this done on an eyelet board yet. I've spent several hours on the board and layout and I'm about finished. I need to get some experience w/ the .sch program to speed this part along better. Does anyone know if there's a good "help" section for this?
As always you guys are the best!  :smiley:
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Offline kagliostro

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Re: To use or not to use a VVR?
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2010, 12:26:35 pm »
Quote
Quote
the question is that an amp with VVR will have some of the effects due to tube saturation early (at low volume level) of that do the same amp without VVR
I'm sorry, not sure what you mean? Are you saying the amp will sound similar at low volumes w/ or w/out the VVR?
I regret for my bad english

I mean that with VVR you can have a sound very similar to the sound you can obtain at max volume but at a lower level

with VVR you can also experiment for particular tones playing(gaming) with volume and VVR

Hope I explain me correctly

Kagliostro
« Last Edit: November 23, 2010, 12:29:43 pm by kagliostro »
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Offline jojokeo

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Re: To use or not to use a VVR?
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2010, 01:45:56 pm »
I regret for my bad english - Hope I explain me correctly

Kagliostro

No worries, I understand perfectly, thank you my friend.

*update: I managed to squeeze most VVR parts on the board but for mounting the mosfet do people use grease + silicon wafer or a thermo pad?

Also, I have three possible ways of mounting the mosfet (w/out knowing how hot it gets?). A metal clip that screws down to the chassis which the device gets sandwiched by, a heatsink w/ it's own clip that does the same sandwiching deal, or simply screwing the mosfet down onto the chassis by itself? Any suggestions?
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Offline sdp1234

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Re: To use or not to use a VVR?
« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2010, 02:21:16 pm »
Which pot and Mosfet will work the best?  I've heard that a more robust pot is recommended.   I've also seen a bunch of parts listed for MOSFETS,  which ones are the most popular.

Offline FYL

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Re: To use or not to use a VVR?
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2010, 03:57:52 pm »
The pot should be rated at 500V. A basic *linear* large Alpha is OK but you should preferably use a Mil-spec model.
Any quality power Mosfet rated at > 6 A / > 450 V such as the IRFP460 is OK for basic amps, use the IRFPE50 for larger amps.


Offline jojokeo

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Re: To use or not to use a VVR?
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2010, 07:45:33 pm »
Which pot and Mosfet will work the best?

Thank you, but that a big Negative. Got that already. I was wondering which mounting option would be recommended by those that have installed these, how hot they get in use, and if they use the wafer/grease or a thermo pad for better conductivity?
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Offline FYL

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Re: To use or not to use a VVR?
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2010, 03:59:28 am »
Quote
I was wondering which mounting option would be recommended by those that have installed these, how hot they get in use, and if they use the wafer/grease or a thermo pad for better conductivity?

Max thermal dissipation will be roughly 40 % of Pmax (B+ * I).

Say B+ is 350 V and max current drawn is 120 mA, Pmax = 42 W, max diss. = 16.8 W. A typical mosfet has a 30° C/W junction to ambient thermal R, it's junction temperature could reach (16.8 * 30) = 504° C, some 350° C above max working temp. Could, because the mosfet will die well before reaching max temp.

Say the amp internal temp is 60° C and you don't want to exceed 120° C at the junction, your thermal budget is 60° C for 16.8 W, or 3.57° C/W. Direct mounting is OK with an aluminum chassis, else a suitable heatsink is required.

Quality pads are thermally better and less messy than mica/thermal grease combos. Beware of el cheapo Chinese pads.

Offline tubenit

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Re: To use or not to use a VVR?
« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2010, 04:56:52 am »
There is quite a bit of information with photos and schematics on VVR cathode biased amps here in the ARCHIVES:

http://www.el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=6899.0

With respect, Tubenit

Offline jojokeo

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Re: To use or not to use a VVR?
« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2010, 11:51:06 am »
FYL - that was awesome (exept for the celsius part  :wink:) and way more than I was looking for, thank you! Got NTE thermal pads so they should work well.

T - more than generous w/your time as always - t/y
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Offline PRR

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Re: To use or not to use a VVR?
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2010, 12:29:28 am »
> how hot they get in use

Depends on the heatsink.

TO-220 without a sink and with more than a Watt in it will get VERY hot. The maximum heat is a fraction of the power amp's full-power consumption. So for any stage-level amp, you need a heatsink. I won't check FYL's 40% number; that looks close enough for what is a nonlinear problem where we want to err on the safe side.

1 Watt in 1 square inch runs about 100 degrees C rise. (Which is why a naked TO-220 cooks at something over 1 Watt.) In audio we customarily strive for half that, 50 deg C (or 60 deg C, fine in this case). That means 2 or 1.7 square inches per Watt. Taking 17 W dissipation you would like 34 or 28 square inches. Both-sides of 17 square inches. Or at least 4"x4" area.

You can't push heat through thin metal to the far end of a chassis. You would like length/thickness below 10:1. For ordinary metal gauges, a 2" push (4" across) is about all you can hope for.

> and if they use the wafer/grease or a thermo pad for better conductivity?

With a bare-tab device you MUST insulate from any grounded or finger-touchable part.

With a VERY large heatsink, the insulator is a bottleneck. The gold-standard was thin oxide grease and mica. I understand the best silicones are comparable.

With a largish device on a small heatsink, the bottleneck is the exposed-to-air surface area, NOT the device to sink area. Air is really bad. Even a crappy solid/liquid is much-much better.

On a chassis-metal sink, the real bottleneck is the ring of thin metal just outside the device mounting area. The TO-220 metal tab is about 0.15 square inches, and someone thought it needed that much. The perimeter is near 1.5 inches. If the chassis metal is under 0.1 inch thick, the sink initial cross-section is less than what the TO-220 has. That works as good as a toilet pipe that narrows from 3" to 2": you get a backup. Worse, because the TO-220 is copper (under the silvery flash) and you got steel or at best aluminum. AND the path through sheet-metal is a lot longer than the 1/4" from TO-220 die to tab edge.

OTOH that tab was sized for 80+ watts and you are only doing like 17W.

On cheap or self-protected LOW-voltage devices there is a simple test. Power up, heat up. Put your finger on the device and the sink. If they are the same temp, your junction is good; if the sink runs cooler than the device you need better junction-stuff. Obviously this would be deadly on a 400V system; save it for your LM7812 regulators and such.

Offline FYL

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Re: To use or not to use a VVR?
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2010, 08:08:09 am »
Quote
I won't check FYL's 40% number; that looks close enough for what is a nonlinear problem where we want to err on the safe side.

Yup, the actual number is closer to 25%, with an inverted/flattened U curve showing max dissipation for the pass elements between 35 and 65% voltage reduction. Using 40% gives some safety margin.


Offline jojokeo

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Re: To use or not to use a VVR?
« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2010, 09:50:42 am »
Happy Turkey day all! :smiley:

When I contacted Mouser's sales staff there was confusion on what the actual package size designation is for the NTE2973 mosfet since it's not actually listed on the site or even on the data sheet.
This is to help clarify any info:
The NTE2973 mosfet package is larger than a TO-220 and is a TO-3P. But there's a range of package sizes in the TO-220 "class" and the TO-3P appears to be the same or close to TO-247 which is lilsted as the size to use for a heatsink (if needed or wanted). The thermo-pad is also listed as TO-3P.

The heatsink suggested is https://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=WA-T247-101Evirtualkey58810000virtualkey588-WA-T247-101E
A heatsink clip to use instead of dealing w/ potential issues w/ conductive grease, overtightening, or shorting is https://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=MAX08Gvirtualkey53210000virtualkey532-MAXCLIP08G
Thermo pads which are better & easier to use than mica/grease is https://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=TP0008_(PKG_OF_5)virtualkey52600000virtualkey526-NTETP0008

Hope this helps, have a great day!
« Last Edit: November 25, 2010, 09:55:16 am by jojokeo »
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Offline jojokeo

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Re: To use or not to use a VVR?
« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2010, 03:25:06 pm »
The amp is built and sounding great however I need to ask about the VVR's performance. I can dial the sound down a lot but as it does, the tone gets more and more distorted and loses headroom. Is this normal for a VVR? I suppose that's sort of it's purpose - playing high gain tones at lower volume but I'm a little surprised by this fact and it seems that you don't have a whole lot of choice in how much distorted tones you want as it almost what you get whether you like it or not? Maybe it takes getting used to dialing the normal vol & vvr volumes to get the amount of distortion where one wants it?
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Re: To use or not to use a VVR?
« Reply #26 on: December 06, 2010, 04:47:35 pm »
> sort of it's purpose

Yes. You are turning a 50 watt amp into a 1 Watt amp.

> Maybe it takes getting used to dialing the normal vol & vvr volumes

Yes. You CAN'T use as much front end gain into a 1W as into a 50W. A purpose-made low-Watt amp takes this into account. Your big amp has gain to reach 50W, you must turn-down the first gain control somewhat to get a good balance at few-Watt levels.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2010, 04:50:05 pm by PRR »

Offline Willabe

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Re: To use or not to use a VVR?
« Reply #27 on: December 06, 2010, 04:50:57 pm »
Hi all,

Isnt the fix for that to also include a PPIM? As you turn down the VVR ( Power Scaler ) it takes less signal to drive the output tubes into distortion. Did you install some kind of master vol. I know your SE,(so no PI) but I think you still might need some kind of master vol. to tame   :blob8::whip2:    the drive to the output tube.

Just my  .02.  


            Thanks,    Brad  
« Last Edit: December 06, 2010, 06:34:28 pm by Willabe »

Offline jojokeo

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Re: To use or not to use a VVR?
« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2010, 05:11:38 pm »
You CAN'T use as much front end gain into a 1W as into a 50W. A purpose-made low-Watt amp takes this into account.

As you turn down the VVR ( Power Scaler ) it takes less signal to drive the output tubes into distortion. Did you install some kind of master vol

I've been experimenting w/ lower wattage amps and I'm just realizing this fact. It's another learning step or dimension to the learning curve to understanding these things.

There's no master vol on this amp, only the vvr to do that task.
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Re: To use or not to use a VVR?
« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2010, 05:38:38 pm »
jojokeo,

You might take a look at KOCs-    London Power.com   - site. He has a pretty long Q&A on power scaling (VVR) up on his site. IMHO I think its a good read, should be helpfull.     :book1:

   
     Brad

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Re: To use or not to use a VVR?
« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2010, 05:33:17 am »
Using 1-10 as a reference,  below 2.5-3 ........ it does lessen the headroom signficantly. Over that, the distortion/overdrive stays reasonably the same for me on the 4 amps where I have used Dana Hall's VVR.

I am curious, did you VVR the entire amp or just the power amp?  I've never used VVR on a single ended amp.

With respect, Tubenit

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Re: To use or not to use a VVR?
« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2010, 07:50:57 am »
Quote
there's no master vol on this amp, only the vvr to do that task.

It's very important to be able to vary the drive into the power amp/power tube (SE) when dialing the VVR down for lower wattage... It will make all the difference in the overdriven tone.
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Re: To use or not to use a VVR?
« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2010, 11:28:43 am »
Using 1-10 as a reference,  below 2.5-3 ........ it does lessen the headroom signficantly. Over that, the distortion/overdrive stays reasonably the same for me on the 4 amps where I have used Dana Hall's VVR.

I am curious, did you VVR the entire amp or just the power amp?  I've never used VVR on a single ended amp.
The amp design is fairly simple and straight forward: 1 12ax7 & 1 EL34. I had a cathode bypass cap on V1b which gave too much gain overall. There wasn't much headroom with it. I removed it last night and the amp cleaned up much better and still overdrives nicely when turned up. After this was done it works as you describe and the vol & vvr controls interact much better together. There's a tone stack bypass and it drives the EL34 much better in this mode but at a bit more overdriving tone along with it. Similar to when V1b bypass cap was installed.

I seperated the preamp from the plate and screen. My preamp voltage is 280v, and the others are at about 340v when all the way up using a 260v PT.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2010, 11:40:29 am by jojokeo »
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Re: To use or not to use a VVR?
« Reply #33 on: December 07, 2010, 11:35:44 am »
Quote
there's no master vol on this amp, only the vvr to do that task.

It's very important to be able to vary the drive into the power amp/power tube (SE) when dialing the VVR down for lower wattage... It will make all the difference in the overdriven tone.

I can see how that would be the case but not quite w/ this SE design. It wouldn't want any preamp drive to be taken away w/ only a single 12ax7 & tone stack and is much better now. I can see that for increased headroom for a cleaner and louder amp, it would be better to go w/ a pp set-up. But for modest around the home use and keeping peace w/ the neighbors and family it's pretty good as is. My signal was just too "over-cooked" before.
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Offline sdp1234

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Re: To use or not to use a VVR?
« Reply #34 on: December 07, 2010, 09:59:42 pm »
I'm planning to use VVR with a vox type amp with 6BM8 output tubes.  I was planning to VVR the PI and PA.  Would this make sense.  I don't think Id need a Master volume because each channel would have a volume before it is fed into the PI?  The amp will have a normal AC15 type channel blended with a Top Boost feeding one side of the PI with an EF86 preamp feeding the other side of the PI.

Offline zendragon63

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Re: To use or not to use a VVR?
« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2010, 12:12:47 am »
I think that, generally speaking, most use the VVR on only the final tube(s) on a SE or the finals and PI on a PP. Not a hard and fast rule because there are those who happily regulate the entire amp. Note the previous two posts:

It's very important to be able to vary the drive into the power amp/power tube (SE) when dialing the VVR down for lower wattage... It will make all the difference in the overdriven tone.

even with a PI stage--because it really does (well put LC!). That said, it's really the cat's meow. Regards

dennis
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Offline jojokeo

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Re: To use or not to use a VVR?
« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2010, 01:57:03 pm »
A little update and side note of possible interest:
While I was tweaking a few values and brightness cap adjustments, on a subsequent powering up hitting the power switch I heard & saw a spark/pop  :huh:
The lucky & good part was the amp chassis was sitting open on top of it's cradle while on a speaker cab so I got to see it too and where it came from. It was from the top of mosfet device where the metal chassis boundry attachment is. I left the amp in standby and I could see the little residue point at this location too. After feeling the chip not being hot and amp was still on so the fuse didn't blow, I turned on the standby switch. The amp still worked and so did the mosfet!  :grin: They must not be that sensitive afterall?
I used only a thermo pad to insulate and isolate. The thermopad is cut on top in a v-shape and I wondered about this and it's isolation ability when I installed it. You can see the drain/B+ part of the metal backing of the mosfet (not the entire backside of the chip) still apear to be able to be okay by it's area being isolated w/ the thermo pad w/ it's v-shaped area as it did cut in from behind the device. (I hope this is clear in my description)?. I think the manufacturer cut this angle too sharply.
To be safe, I re-installed the mosfet by taking the thermo pad's bottom which is square shaped, and turning it 180 to use this end of the thermo pad instead. This should provide a much better isolation for it now. As a note to others, I would suggest doing the same from the beginning on future installs if using a thermopad.
Hope this helps - Joe
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Offline Willabe

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Re: To use or not to use a VVR?
« Reply #37 on: December 08, 2010, 02:26:59 pm »
jojokeo,

That doesn't sound right. The pad has a V shaped notch in it? Are you saying this notch is were the hole for the chassis/mosfet bolt should be? I've only bought mica type insulaters myself, but the thermopads I've seen pics. of had a round hole for the bolt, not a V shaped notch. Maybe better to wait to hear from someone who has more experance than I do, just to be safe?

I have read a number of times you should not "re-use" a thermopad. It can lessen it's (thermopad) ability to transfer the heat from the mosfit to the chassis/heatsink.

   Brad 

Offline jojokeo

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Re: To use or not to use a VVR?
« Reply #38 on: December 08, 2010, 02:51:11 pm »
They're fine to re-use as they are made of silicon & fiberglass. Sort of like thin rubber-like material. It is the overall shape of it that I'm talking about. When I flipped it 180, I made another small hole for the mounting bolt. Here is a pic of it that I found.
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Offline Willabe

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Re: To use or not to use a VVR?
« Reply #39 on: December 08, 2010, 03:24:13 pm »
jojokeo,

Your a braver man than I. If a high vol.(ok not so high, only 350 vdc. or so?) mosfet arced over to the chassis  :huh: I'd be a little worried.

But thats just me, I guess I'm just worrie-wort.      :laugh: 


   Thanks,   Brad        
« Last Edit: December 08, 2010, 06:32:10 pm by Geezer »

Offline jojokeo

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Re: To use or not to use a VVR?
« Reply #40 on: December 08, 2010, 04:09:15 pm »
It wasn't still arcing when I felt it. If anything it would've been dead but still would be isolated. I have an old habit of doing that while troubleshooting ss components, it's fast and easy to find overheated and shorted chips.
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Offline FYL

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Re: To use or not to use a VVR?
« Reply #41 on: December 08, 2010, 05:50:26 pm »
Quote
I used only a thermo pad to insulate and isolate. The thermopad is cut on top in a v-shape and I wondered about this and it's isolation ability when I installed it.

The pad you've used is designed for small TO-218 cases with an inverted V-shaped tab, no wonder the Mosfet arced if you've used a TO-3P, TO-247 or even TO-220...

http://www.fairchildsemi.com/products/discrete/pdf/to2183l_dim.pdf

Offline jojokeo

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Re: To use or not to use a VVR?
« Reply #42 on: December 08, 2010, 09:30:25 pm »
Thanks FYL but I did use the TO-3P size, in fact it's so oversized it sticks out past the bottom by about 3/8". This is why I had plenty of material to use it upside down/180º.

I was able to get a close up picture, check it to see what I'm talking about.
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Re: To use or not to use a VVR?
« Reply #43 on: December 09, 2010, 02:41:21 am »
Quote
I did use the TO-3P size

OK.
The first pic was a TO-218 outline...


Offline jojokeo

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Re: To use or not to use a VVR?
« Reply #44 on: December 09, 2010, 01:00:35 pm »
I only used that to explain the shape of the thermopad, sorry for the confusion as I didn't look at the part # before posting.
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is research.

 


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