Hi Fi for the guitar amp guy?

[kriswel]

I am sure more than a few of you have built a tube home stereo before. What are some of the doable classic designs? Actually what would be way over my head? That's really where I like to start!

I am a finishing carpenter and I work in some crazy high end custom homes. We did a house that had a "music listening room" separate from the "media room". We didn't do a whole lot of work in it because it was a simple rectangle with flat black walls and hidden speakers with a single love seat in the middle. I did see them start to cart the electronics in and it was all home brew looking rack gear. For some reason this all cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to engineer, build and equip this room. I guess the speakers were hand made in new york blah blah... out of hand. This guy apparently was there the first time they ever made one computer talk to another, loaded. I'm sad I never got to sit in the love seat and hear the tunes though.

Then I was at party that one of my builders put on and he had some crazy system... "McIntosh" ok I know that name, saw a few on ebay while searching "tube amplifier".  Sounded pretty good. Is it just me or when your drinking beer and someone is showing off the "hi fi" is it always Brothers in Arms?

So I decided, hey I can build amps! I should build hi fi and maybe I can parlay myself into some sweet builds. At the very least I could have a nice home stereo!

So where does a guy that builds guitar amps start?

[Shrapnel]

First, remember those super-high prices are for those with money to throw away. As an guitar amp builder, you are ahead: Build technique is the same, components don't have to be "cork-sniffer," at least for yourself.

Decide on how much power you want, the speaker impedance you want to use (per channel), how many channels (Do you want it also for your home theater?)

Where to start looking: Hi-Fi schematics -> McIntosh, Marantz, Harmon-Kardon, Scott, Sherwood, Heathkit, etc.
Some will be mono-blocks, some may be stereo.  They'll probably all be similar for the most part, and similar to the guitar amp (but not the same as the guitar amp.) Also look in the back of the old RCA tub manuals. Use these as your starting point, adjust any preamp switching to the amount of inputs you want to hook up. If you have an old magnetic cartridge turntable you want to hook up you can't forget the RIAA certified preamp design, which will probably already be there. You probably won't want to modify the designs too much. Tuner? do you want tube, or SS? Sometimes you can get a SS tuner cheap by itself... or build a tube one and learn about RF and mess with tuning it and adjusting ferrite cores in IF transformers, etc. (Build it tube, and you can ignore HD Radio, digital tuning, etc.) Personally, I'd just stick with the preamp and the power amp and get a digital tuner.

You'll want Hi-Fi Iron... Edcor or Hammond should work unless you got some old hi-fi iron hanging around.

Hope this is enough info to get you started. Let us know what you are looking at for more feedback.

[triode]

Where to start looking: Hi-Fi schematics -> McIntosh, Marantz, Harmon-Kardon, Scott, Sherwood, Heathkit, etc.
Some will be mono-blocks, some may be stereo. 

These are not very hi-fi designs. Some of the old Macs sound really good, but you will never find that
iron they used, or even get close. _some_ models of the HK were OK. The old Heathkits used Acrosound
iron, which is truly great iron, but it comes with a price. Call Mike at Magnequest to get that
Acrosound iron brand new. (personally, its killer). 

Again, some of those designs are "great", but it depends on what you are after. None of them are super accurate
at music reproduction, at least not compared to say an ARC, Conrad Johnson, etc. BUT a ton of people love listening
to them, on certain speakers. Now... back in the day, they were better than anything out there, but slightly newer
designs and components can get you closer to that "the band is in the living room!" soundstage. It really depends on
what you are after. I am assuming you want the band in the living room accuracy.

You'll want Hi-Fi Iron... Edcor or Hammond should work unless you got some old hi-fi iron hanging around.
Hope this is enough info to get you started. Let us know what you are looking at for more feedback.

Not to be mean, but Edcor and Hammond are not hifi iron. I am not trying to make you spend lots of cash,
but the iron is critical for full frequency response. Try Magnequest, Tango, Linduhl (sp?), etc.

Shrapnel is correct though, what kind of power are you talking? Do you want 4W SE amps with 300Bs or 2A3s
and high efficiency drivers (horns, single drivers, etc) or do you want 100-200WPC with full range speakers?
Some of the best sounds I have ever heard in my life were 2-14W single ended triode or PPP triode amps
driving single speakers (like one Fostex, Lowthar, etc). Magical. Even then, we are talking <$1000 for a pair
of homebrew monoblocks, a nice set of fostex speakers will hit you <$300. That may seem high to you guys,
but for hifi that is less than zero. I have a friend with a $1.5Million dollar setup, and mine is very close, and cost
less than $5k.

I would read up at audioasylum.com, particularly the SET forum, high efficiency speaker forum, magnequest foum.
As for hifi designs, it depends a LOT on how much power you want, and if you want SET or large amps.

Just my $0.02.

[FYL]

What are some of the doable classic designs?

Have a look at the Dyna(kit/co) amps. Many versions, simple designs wich can easily be improved. And there's a geetar connection: Sunn used Dynas in some of their amps!

[FYL]

Not to be mean, but Edcor and Hammond are not hifi iron. I am not trying to make you spend lots of cash,
but the iron is critical for full frequency response. Try Magnequest, Tango, Linduhl (sp?), etc.

Sorry, but Edcor and Hammond produce some excellent hifi OTs. Magnequest is IMO vastly overhyped and overpriced; Tango is gone - the new ISO prodcues some of their designs but the prices are obscene; Lundhal manufactures some of the best OTs around with too many idiosyncrasies for standard use.

[jjasilli]

My solution was not to build, but to rebuild.  I chose venerable PA amps, as they are inexpensive, but the right one's are very hi-sound quality.  After 1958, OT's went hi-fi.  Before that they did not cover the musical range form 20 - 20K Hz.  As of 1958, that changed for the better.  Look for 1958 and later OT's enclosed with tight spacers, or potted; not the open-framed ones -- the latter being more suitable for guitar amp conversions.  My Stromberg-Carlason 1100 power amps are rated for 20 - 30K Hz with less than 2% harmonic distortion from 40 - 20K Hz.  Hum & noise is 80dB below 100W.  They sound fantastic; but aren't pretty to look at.  So they're hidden in an entertainment center.  (Don't forget WAF -- wife acceptance factor)

Numerous vintage hi-fi tube amps are availbale on eBay.  Harmon Kardon Citation II's, Fishers and Scotts are at the top of the line; also Dynaco; Heathkit; Eico; etc.  Again, the key is the vintage trannies.  Also kits are available.  Aside form the occaisional vintage unbuilt kit, checkout triode electronics for new Dynaco style amps.  Google "diy hi-fi" for a number of good forums and suppliers for great info; or if you prefer to "roll your own" build.

[stingray_65]

**********OPINION ALERT*********

I have a buddy into HiFi, And he's gotten me to appreciate HiFi and that whole genre since we met.

I'm working on my amp that will be in my shop.

It will be NOTHING as elaborate, sensitive, sophisticated  or worthy as even his LOWGRADE system!

But you heard it here and so many other guitar amp forums. USE your ears!

My current system consists of a 1978 Sansui 9090DB and a pair of 1957 ElectroVoice Aristocrats.

WOW!

I never had owned anything that sounds so nice... to MY ears.

I've heard better, but not at the cost I have into this system.

The amp that I'm designing right now will be 15W ish PP 6L6 single preamp 12AU7 and LTP PI 12AT7.

I haven't decided on what OT's I'll use, likely Hammond, but I'll surely use one of the Magnetic Component PT's I have laying around.

Thing is, it will sound pretty good, to my ears at least.

I won't break the bank either. (and the banks plenty fragile right now)

I suppose if I were to spend some money on my music source, say a nice turn table and a stack of good LP's I might consider upgrading other aspects of my system. But all I play anymore is MP3's so how good CAN it sound.

OH!, be VERY careful wandering into the HiFi world and experimenting. You think the guitar amp bug is awful to catch, That HiFi stuff is just as contagious! and 100x's as expensive! BE WARNED!

Ray

[echuta13]

Hmm... there's tons of opinion on components in the guitar amp world, and it just gets worse when wandering into HiFi land.

Ultralinear?  SE? PP?  SS or tube recto?  Triode or pentode/tetrode output? Choke or capacitor input? ect...

I think it's comes down to is what are your goals & budget are for the project. 

[eleventeen]

My opinion, for what it's worth, is that should you wander into the world of hi-fi tube audio, you'll find (and fail to find) dozens and hundreds of very small, boutique makers, of ever-increasing fetishism, ever increasing price points, indeed, no practical upper limit on what some folks will pay.

I have seen some folks get into this and sell 2 qty $10,000 stereo amps a year or less. Lots of makers of this level gear are completely under the radar screen, you'll "never" find them...because they have no ability to finance the publicity required to allow you to find them.

There is an annual trade show which is typically held in Las Vegas for the high-end amp & speaker makers. The name escapes me at the moment...it may be called the "A.M.P." show or something like that. A friend of mine, Mike Maloney, used to both manufacture an ultra-hi-fi amp and was a partial organizer of this show. If you go and register on an ultra hi-fi forum and ask around, you'll capture the correct name of this show, and be perhaps be able to download or otherwise get an exhibitor list from same.

The business wouldn't be attractive to me, but that doesn't mean it might not be attractive to you. IMO, most of the builders in this ultra-ultra high end space sell between zero and 3 amps a year, and those are touted as glorious victories. The rest of the time, they are struggling to pay their rent and returning 1.3% out-of-spec components (and trying, perhaps to the point of litigation, to get mfr credit for bad components) and wondering how and where they will achieve replacements and trying with all their might to get an equipment review in "gourmet audio" magazine and finding out the reviewer thinks their amps sound like Chardonnay instead of fine Merlot and they are frickin cooked. That's what happened to Maloney. Then they get those replacements, they fail in 4 months, and they are double cooked. And they can not overcome these vagaries of the world because the audience is so small.

That's just my 2 cents, YMMV.

[kriswel]

I'm not serious about going into the hi fi business. The truth is I work for the kind of people that spend ridicules amounts of money on anything and everything... I did a round walk in closet that was bigger than some apartments, had a huge dome skylight with three part flex crown. When I looked at the millwork drawing I had to ask what all the display shelving was for? the answer: shoes. More shoes than a shoe store.

Some of these clients keep me going for months after the job should be finished building furniture and storage... If I could show them a Hi Fi stereo I built they would probably want one even if it was for the work out room or kids play area. Funny I am yet to find a client that is into electric guitar or I probably would have sold a guitar amp for a crazy amount of money.

But most of all I just think I should have a tube stereo that I built.

[eleventeen]

Believe me, if you are fortunate enough to have a coterie of clients who will shower you with money, I would be the last one on earth to discourage you from taking it!

I am only recommending you take/earn it via the proven way you already of taking/earning it. Eg;
"don't quit your day job". From your brief description of your situation and my even smaller understanding of same, I would bet that you could make beautifully milled $3,000 amaranth & cocobolo bases for these amps as supplied by others and make more money than the amp-builders do!

[kriswel]

I am trying to find the specs on my Nuance star 1S speakers. They are a Canadian company and I think they went tits up before the internet really got big so there is no dirt on them. Maybe I will pull the drivers and look for power ratings... They were really expensive when I was 18 for an 18 year old, and I think they sound pretty good. Not sure if it is worth building around them or not but that is probably what I will do.

"I would bet that you could make beautifully milled $3,000 amaranth & cocobolo bases for these amps as supplied by others and make more money than the amp-builders do"

HAHA... I make more putting in doors, installing trim and onsite millwork, than the guy that builds the cocobolo bases already. Those fine woodwork guys are kinda like the amp builders you described... they sell a few pieces for allot of money but can barely afford the heat for the shop. I have the advantage of setting my shop up in the house so they pay for the heat. I also have my work lined up for years in advance. No worries about quitting my day job.

[FYL]

There is an annual trade show which is typically held in Las Vegas for the high-end amp & speaker makers. The name escapes me at the moment...it may be called the "A.M.P." show or something like that. A friend of mine, Mike Maloney, used to both manufacture an ultra-hi-fi amp and was a partial organizer of this show

T.H.E. (The Home Entertainment) show, which takes place at the same time as the CES. Mike Maloney ran Scientific Fidelity, a loudspeaker manufacturer.

http://www.theshowlasvegas.com/

[eleventeen]

Thanks, FYL! I knew someone would nail it.

[PRR]

> I'm not serious about going into the hi fi business.

Good. There's excellent honest people in that racket, but a lot of BULLCRAP is needed to get noticed and get checkbooks out.

> I am a finishing carpenter and I work in some crazy high end custom homes.

You have an "in". The guys who solder silver-ferrite to 300B bottles often are not cabinet makers.... you could try to market yourself with lovely routed engraved custom chassis cases. The guy who sells two $10K amps a year might pay $1K-2K for a nice box.

That kind of business won't feed your kids.

> clients keep me going for months ... show them a Hi Fi stereo I built they would probably want one

Makes sense to me. You know the suckeXXX Customer and his checkbook. Does not have to be super-duper electronics. Explain that while you love hi-fi, your ears are dull from years around power-tools. Ask if they think it sounds good (let them play The Expert). Ask for suggested electronics upgrades. Point out that this case design, done in the same wood as they have in the 3rd den, would look great; and your knowledge of hinges and such would make installation and maintenance easier and prettier than some ugly rack-mount crap.

Get some of those Russian radar tubes and big heater transformers. Mount and cabinet them. The sound may really come from a 1997 sandstate Sansui, but big glow makes any system sound better, highlights the woodwork. Most people won't have a clue that the tubes are just hot gingerbread. It's all magic.

But do your customers come to YOUR place?

Painters and framers have boomboxes. You can even buy Tool-Brand (Milwaukee, Black And Decker) rugged radios. Work up something on that scale but in fine wood, and just casually have it playing Beethoven while you trim the kitchen. As long as it does not squawk or rattle, sound does not have to be fab-u-lous, just pleasant.

http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=176678
http://www.perihelionaudio.com/personal/audio/boombox.jpg (you can do better)

> I also have my work lined up for years in advance.

So why are you looking for more? Keep putting up miles of shoe-rack and triple-trimming skylights. It may get dull, but I bet amp cabinetry gets boring too. And in this economy, having ANY work is a GOOD thing. (My contractor just had to put his house up for sale and take a warehouse job to feed his offspring; I expect to see his sub working at WalMart soon.)

[rafe]

(My contractor just had to put his house up for sale and take a warehouse job to feed his offspring; I expect to see his sub working at WalMart soon.)

You have that one right......

[HotBluePlates]

So I decided, hey I can build amps! I should build hi fi and maybe I can parlay myself into some sweet builds. At the very least I could have a nice home stereo!

So where does a guy that builds guitar amps start?

My personal inclination would be to continue building guitar amps.

I say that because the "crazy money" to be found building hi-fi is invariably bound to use super-hype and snake-oil components, and you have to buy the snake-oil from someone else (unless you make your own).

What I have seen in the hi-fi world (and I stay away from the retail side of it) is that you have to already be famous if you want to sell something, and you'll sell so few units they have to be overpriced to be worth messing with it all.

But I originally skimmed this thread and thought you were looking to build for yourself. With that perspective in mind, let me relate this story:

When I lived in Nashville, I ran into a guy that was into esoteric (and expensive!) hi-fi. He had a nice sounding system that was homebrew, which had parallel SE 2A3's for output tubes. This arrangement produced a mighty 3w of output, but through the Klipsch horns he used (don't remember the model number), anything above half volume would blow you out of the room. Unlike your Dire Straits encounter, he had me bring music I liked, so we listened mostly to the Wallflowers on that occasion. He didn't subject me to any classical on vinyl, though he had the $$$$$$$ turntable to play it with.

Anyway, look up the price of the old Klipsch horns (or comparable). Then consider the price of very expensive, very large, very well-made SE OT's. Then look at the price of old collectible triodes (2A3, 45, 300B, etc). You will likely find that while people may talk about the "pure sound of class A SE triodes," you will find that it requires the system using horns to take the smallish output power and make decent volume. When you first investigate it, you think the tubes are the big cost of the approach, but then you get hit with the OT's and the type of speakers required, and it adds up fast.

As a result, the "lower-tier hi-fi" using push-pull pentodes or beam power tubes makes a lot more economic sense. I bought a pair of McIntosh MC-30's about 7 years apart (so it was a recent thing to really be able to listen to them in stereo), but I got them each for a pretty good price. Mc has the transformer patented, but if you could actually get the OT, building the rest is easy. They make even garbage speakers sound pretty dang good. If you can wait for a good deal to manifest, you will likely enjoy the Macs.

If I were to build hi-fi for myself, I'd probably look to a Dynaco or Williamson copy. The OT should be special, but not exorbitant. The tubes don't need to cost a fortune either.

[Merlin]

So where does a guy that builds guitar amps start?

A guy on the AX84 forum came up with this recently, sounds like the sort of thing you're after; it's very well documented:
http://cuamps.com/harmless.html

[steven]

So where does a guy that builds guitar amps start?

A guy on the AX84 forum came up with this recently, sounds like the sort of thing you're after; it's very well documented:
http://cuamps.com/harmless.html

I don't know about the OP, but that's just the ticket for me. Thx for the link.

steven