Author Topic: Tweedy Bluesmeister non-HRM (Read 40276 times)

Geezer · « **on:** December 22, 2010, 07:38:31 am »

Some background:
I hang around some over @ the "AmpGarage" forum.
A forum member there (erwin_ve, from the Netherlands) posted a clip of an amp that just blew me away.
I built a version of the amp.....here are the details.

The "Bluesmaster" is a "Dumble" style amp that normally has a full (extra) tonestack in the OverDrive section (known as "HRM", HotRodMarshall, HotRubberMonkey, whatever).

Erwin took the Bluesmaster preamp & married it to the overdrive section of a "normal" Overdrive Special (no HRM tonestack).

I then took his original design & "tweedified" it by using cathode bias & by lowering the filtering in the power amp.

The amp is big & fat in the clean section (not "too" clean, but still clean), but really shines in the OD section! Super touch response, & big bloom & sustain when you crank up the gain & volume.

The linked clip was recorded at a fairly low volume, thru an older Weber Sig12 in an open back cab.
Guitar = HSH Strat

http://soundcloud.com/dageezer/bluesmaster-non-hrm-demo

My version is attached.......original schematic can be found Here>>> http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13114&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15&sid=841b9d13c915067a13dd3b720df7e647

Note: you must be a member @ The Amp Garage to view the thread/file

Many Thanks to Erwin (for the design), and to Tubenit (for drawing out the .sch file of my version).

sluckey · « **Reply #1 on:** December 22, 2010, 07:47:59 am »

I really enjoyed that! It's a pleasure to see and hear your creations. You have a rare combination of talents.

tubenit · « **Reply #2 on:** December 22, 2010, 08:02:24 am »

Incredible tone and remarkable playing (listening thru headphones).

That amp really has a sweet blooming dynamic to it. Sounds superb. Very very toneful.

Thanks for sharing your continued ingenuity!

With respect, Tubenit

Fresh_Start · « **Reply #3 on:** December 22, 2010, 10:22:20 am »

That is a really cool sound!

sluckey is right - very few have the talent to design/tweak amp circuits so successfully and play beautifully too.

If only there were an amp that sounds just as good but with fewer knobs. I know all the controls are needed to be able to dial it in "just so". That Soho '65 you were trying to reverse engineer a while back had an interesting approach though. IIRC there was a 6-position rotary switch which effectively had presets.

Merry Christmas & Happy Holidays guys!

Chip

tubenit · « **Reply #4 on:** December 22, 2010, 12:04:52 pm »

DRAFT layout. This may have numerous errors in it? I have NOT had time to check it, but thought I'd post it so another set of eyes can look it over.

This is one possible way to approach the layout.

Can someone take a look and critique for errors, please?

With respect, Tubenit

bluesbear · « **Reply #5 on:** December 22, 2010, 02:44:59 pm »

Geezer,
Take a look at the red circles in your OD circuit:
The 250k is the OD level, right? Is the 1M an OD presence of some sort? I don't think I've ever seen that particular circuit before.
Thanks,
Dave

Tone Junkie · « **Reply #6 on:** December 22, 2010, 03:52:57 pm »

Thanks Geezer once again you give us a good amp to build with soulfull tone and a few good licks to test it out with,( SWEET). Bill

Geezer · « **Reply #7 on:** December 22, 2010, 04:53:12 pm »

Quote from: bluesbear on December 22, 2010, 02:44:59 pm

Geezer,
Take a look at the red circles in your OD circuit:
The 250k is the OD level, right? Is the 1M an OD presence of some sort? I don't think I've ever seen that particular circuit before.
Thanks,
Dave

Hey Dave!

Yes, the .001/1meg network is a treble bleed control for the OD section....it can be used to take off some of the hi-end hash for a smoother overdrive. Works very well.

G

bluesbear · « **Reply #8 on:** December 22, 2010, 09:30:01 pm »

Thanks! I'll try it.
Dave

drumslinger2000 · « **Reply #9 on:** December 26, 2010, 05:04:10 pm »

nice sounding amp Geezer. blew me away from the first note.

Willabe · « **Reply #10 on:** December 26, 2010, 08:08:09 pm »

Geezer,

Not to butter your bread on both sides, but You Sir can play! Realy though, your a very good "gittar" man IMHO, I enjoyed it very much. I spent a lot of time hangin and playin in blues bars in Chgo. and IMHO, (FWIW) you could have sat in any night you wanted to. They, Chgo. would have loved your playin, you would have fit right in, belive me on this. Anyway......

I was thinkin of maybe doing a COS, or a TOS (with verb) build, but now you got me thinkin maybe I should build this amp. I'm more of a Fender man as a player, so I'm looking for the sustain that these 3 amps offer, but would like to build the smoothest/least crunch one of the 3. I like to listen to other players who have some crunch to their sound, but for myself, I lean towards a smoother sounding amp. Which of these 3 amps do you think is the smoothest sounding? Tubenit, how about you, which build would you suggest?

Thanks, Brad

tubenit · « **Reply #11 on:** December 27, 2010, 08:06:47 am »

Quote

I lean towards a smoother sounding amp. Which of these 3 amps do you think is the smoothest sounding? Tubenit, how about you, which build would you suggest?

Gosh, I don't know?? Geezer stated he might post another soundclip of his new amp but with more overdrive dialed in. Maybe wait to hear that clip and then decide?

I'm not sure anything I have done is a sweet sounding as this most recent BluezMeister clip & amp?

I converted the Carolina Overdrive Special to a Tweed OD because I'm gonna sell it to a friend (if he wants it. He is typically a Marshall fan). He wanted the TOS with active FX instead of the COS with reverb.

Having said that, I liked the COS alot. It was buttery smooth, IMO. The TOS is definitely easier to dial in and I have been more successful getting a wider clean to OD transition on the TOS. But for sheer smooth OD, the COS did that and also got that neat "blooming" that going on. The COS soundclip is here: http://www.el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=9637.0

I am thinking that Geezer's "BluezMeister" preamp and tone stack into the TOS overdrive section using a 5879 might be a pretty cool tone?

With respect, Tubenit

tubenit · « **Reply #12 on:** December 27, 2010, 08:36:36 am »

Quote

I am thinking that Geezer's "BluezMeister" preamp and tone stack into the TOS overdrive section using a 5879 might be a pretty cool tone?

With respect, Tubenit

Geezer · « **Reply #13 on:** December 27, 2010, 08:49:18 am »

Quote from: Willabe on December 26, 2010, 08:08:09 pm

would like to build the smoothest/least crunch one of the 3. I like to listen to other players who have some crunch to their sound, but for myself, I lean towards a smoother sounding amp. Which of these 3 amps do you think is the smoothest sounding?
Thanks, Brad

Well, the BM is the most versitile amp so far.....i can get smooth or crunch by using the different preamp settings (jazz/rock, pab, mid boost) & OD trim/drive settings. It takes some time to get used to how it reacts, but it all in there somewhere!

I'm working on some (very) small tweaks & will update after I do a gig with it tonite.

G

drumslinger2000 · « **Reply #14 on:** December 28, 2010, 05:10:33 pm »

Geezer,

how did the gig go? what kind of music?

Geezer · « **Reply #15 on:** December 29, 2010, 06:02:31 am »

Quote from: drumslinger2000 on December 28, 2010, 05:10:33 pm

Geezer,

how did the gig go? what kind of music?

Here's a sampler of what we do>> http://www.shenandoahweddings.org/Rumours%20Demo%2010-08.mp3

The amp performed great!
It was "one of those gigs".....couple guys showed up late, no time for sound check, so I was tweaking on the run all nite.
Quickly found out the "Jazz" setting didn't work for this type music live, got lost in the mix.
"Rock" setting was MUCH better, & with the footswitchable PAB boost & OD I had every tone I needed. Very responsive to guitar volume settings. Very "comfortable" amp, still a little bass heavy (had to run the bass pot all the way down) but these Bluesmasters are known for that. I'm going to do some tweaking (lowering) of the output coupling caps to try to tame it a bit.
Also going to try polyester caps to shave off some (very slight) high end.

All in all, it's "almost perfect"!

G

tubenit · « **Reply #16 on:** December 29, 2010, 08:30:19 am »

Geezer,

Man, I LOVE that kind of music !!!!!!!! That's what I grew up with.
:icon_thumleft:

Down here in the Carolina at the ocean side, we still hear that kind of music in the mix of "Beach music"! Groups like the Embers, Band of OZ and the Fantastic Shakers knock that stuff out about as good as the originals & people will be up and shag dancing. Very fun stuff!

Glad the amp is working out so well for you. I'll look forward to hearing what your final tweaks are. Sure appreciate you sharing your handiwork on this amp and all the other innovative ones you've come up with.

The Orange Drop PS are also polyester like the Mallory's are & I think they are a little clearer/transparent sounding than the Mallory's to my ears.

With respect, Tubenit

Willabe · « **Reply #17 on:** December 29, 2010, 12:13:18 pm »

Hey Geezer, you guys sound real good. I bet people have a great time when you guys play out.

Nothin like a live band, that sounds like a band and not a factory building tanks IMHO. But as they say, to each their own.

Brad

Geezer · « **Reply #18 on:** December 29, 2010, 12:23:51 pm »

Thanks for the nice comments.....that demo is "live", no remixes or overdubs of vocals or instruments.
The singers are really great to work with (we have up to 5-part harmony going on sometimes), & the drummer is the best I've ever played with (he's on an electronic kit that was already setup at the place we recorded the demo's, but normally plays a really cool vintage Gretsch kit)

G

Tone Junkie · « **Reply #19 on:** December 29, 2010, 12:44:54 pm »

They really sound like there alot of fun to play with Geezer nothin like a good group

drumslinger2000 · « **Reply #20 on:** December 29, 2010, 03:13:45 pm »

tight little band Geezer! I was just about to comment on the drums but you answered my question on it being an electronic kit on those songs. Vintage Gretsch set? very nice, I have one myself.

What Orange Drops did you initially use on the build Geezer?

Geezer · « **Reply #21 on:** December 29, 2010, 06:04:29 pm »

Quote from: drumslinger2000 on December 29, 2010, 03:13:45 pm

What Orange Drops did you initially use on the build Geezer?

715P's.........and they are stayin' in!

I tried Mallory 150's & it muddied the tone, along with some nasty hash on top of the notes! Put ALL 715P's back in & the sweet tone is back (whew!)

Still workin' on the tweaks.....almost there.

G

Geezer · « **Reply #22 on:** January 03, 2011, 02:29:12 pm »

OK, did some more tweaks (I'll update later).

Here's ~6 minutes (

) of noodlin'....just twisting the trim/drive/ratio knobs of the OD to see what tones are available.
I start with some cleans for reference, then try to play similar riffs to see how it reacts to different settings, then end with a few clean chords again.
This is by no means all the gain available, but in the realm that I usually play. I'll try to do some higher gain stuff later.

http://soundcloud.com/dageezer/noodles-on-the-bm-01032011mp3/s-604Q3

pullshocks · « **Reply #23 on:** January 03, 2011, 02:49:23 pm »

Whew...that sounds absolutely great. I'll be modding my old d-build to those specs as soon as you get your latest tweaks posted. It's already cathode biased.
(And practicing a lot -- your "noodling" is pretty inspiring)

tubenit · « **Reply #24 on:** January 03, 2011, 02:54:28 pm »

That's an incredible beautiful sweet tone! Maybe the most articulate touch sensitive tone I've heard.

Very nice! Congrats on your creativity and persistence in achieving your own tone.

With respect, Tubenit

mat · « **Reply #25 on:** January 03, 2011, 03:07:36 pm »

Sounds really great ! You have a nice touch on Your playing !

I'm struggling with myself whether to convert my TOS-build to cathode bias or not. Yours and tubenit's amps sounds stellar so maybe it is time to make the move.

Thanks again for the clip !

drumslinger2000 · « **Reply #26 on:** January 03, 2011, 05:50:50 pm »

That sure is purdy sounding Geezer. I hope to start on my own this week. Nice playing man.

Willabe · « **Reply #27 on:** January 03, 2011, 09:05:14 pm »

Geezer, Iv'e said it before and I'll say it again, "you can play son"! (not talking down to you , just slang/ blues club lingo that was and still is very complementry, the world's a Big place and everywhere has different "phrases" that can mean different things in different places) I have a hard time trying to interact with you guys in this "way" instead of when we're just hangin out at a "club" and playin/ talkin stuff. I'd bet a good number of "use" here would get along great playin together.

Brad

Geezer · « **Reply #28 on:** January 03, 2011, 09:31:21 pm »

Thanks again guys!

Here's some high(er) gain stuff.....sorry for the repetitiveness of the phrasing, but I was trying to play a little, then tweak the controls while holding a note, then play the same type again to compare.

Keep in mind that with the click of a footswitch, she goes back to perfectly clean in an instant.

Also, there are some "glitches" / clicks in the recording for some reason....it's the program, not the amp.

http://soundcloud.com/dageezer/higainnoodles-on-the-bm-01032011mp3

Deric · « **Reply #29 on:** January 03, 2011, 10:26:27 pm »

Very very nice! Thanks for sharing.

pullshocks · « **Reply #30 on:** January 04, 2011, 02:08:26 am »

I assume you are using the preamp boost on the 2nd round of noodles, but how about the mid boost? How about on the clean set? Are either of the boosts engaged?

CircuitButcher · « **Reply #31 on:** January 04, 2011, 06:29:22 am »

Well demo'd - nice touch & expression - that amp sounds like a players dream - taking you where you want where you want to go - and further...

It's amazing the amount of tonal achievement in a short timeframe between the Tweed ODS and the Tweedy Bluesmeister. Would appreciate your comparative opinion between the two and to what degree they cover the same ground.

I think there are many who seek to attain geezerdom

Thanks for sharing

tubenit · « **Reply #32 on:** January 04, 2011, 07:16:51 am »

Gee whiz, Geezer !!!!!!!!!!

:icon_thumleft: :icon_thumleft:

I don't think there's any tone out there that I like better than that!!

WOW !!!!! That's remarkable!

If my amp turns out 85% that sweet sounding, I'll be estatic.

(I'm planning to attend converting my Tweed OD Lite reverb into this amp. It's in a small combo cab. Already got parts from Hoffman & plan to start the turret board asap)

With respect, Tubenit

Geezer · « **Reply #33 on:** January 04, 2011, 10:05:04 am »

Quote from: pullshocks on January 04, 2011, 02:08:26 am

I assume you are using the preamp boost on the 2nd round of noodles, but how about the mid boost? How about on the clean set? Are either of the boosts engaged?

Yes on the PAB, no on the mid-boost

I like the PAB mildly on all the time, even on the cleans (fattens it up), so I have disconnected the PAB from the relay & simply have a small resistor to lift the mid pot ground lug a bit, & just use the mid pot as the "PAB" adjustment.

On the mid-boost, I don't care for that tone, but I do have a slightly larger treble cap in place (I think it's a 330p vs the orginal 250p....I'll update it on the schem later when I get a chance to check)

I am trying a different "boost" for the unused "PAB" relay.....lifting the ground lug of the OD "trim" pot (just slightly, using a small value pot as an ajustment) for a slight gain increase...we'll see how that goes. I got the idea from TAlbany over @ the TAG forum.

The only problem I'm still working out is trying to balance the tones between the clean & OD (to "perfection"

) When I get the cleans right, the OD is a bit too bright, & when the OD is right, the cleans are slightly too dark. I may have to put a small bright cap on a relay that is activated when the OD is disengaged (?)....still working.

Oh, almost forgot.....in the hi-gain clips (all the clips so far, for that matter) that's a 12AY7 in the V1 socket!

G

Tone Junkie · « **Reply #34 on:** January 04, 2011, 10:44:22 am »

Keep us posted Im waiting on parts .Bill

Willabe · « **Reply #35 on:** January 04, 2011, 01:15:20 pm »

Geezer,

I'm trying to figure out what tranformer set to use.

What is the transformer set you are using? What is the OT rated for, 30w, (tweed pro?) 40w,(tweed or BF?) ? Some guys like to use bigger iron for the OT, and some like smaller, what are you using for this build? IIRC, you guess-ta-mate this amp at around 20-ish watts? So even a 30w OT would be over kill.

Hammonds got a few that look like they would work. RCA book (RC-30) says effective load resistance (plate-to-plate) for 6L6GC as any where from 3.8k to 6.6K in grid bias. RC-19 has 6L6GB listed as same for grid bias, but also has 9k (ELR, p-to-p) listed for cathode bias. This is still a little confuseing to me. In this build were not looking for max power from a PP pair of 6L6's, so we choose for tone and touch response? But which way do you go, higher or lower resistance and how dose it effect the tone and responce of the amp?

I have a hammond, 272BX that seems close to what you have spec.-wise, 300-0-300, 100mA DC, works out to 424vdc @ 156mA (?), but it's only rated for 2A on the 5v sec. I also have a 270DX that should also work 275-0-275, 90mA DC, works out to 368vdc @ 146mA (?), but again only 2A on the 5v sec. 5U4 is 3A. I'm wondering how much sag it's adding overall to the bloom on this amp? Do you feel Hammonds have enough in reserve on the 5v sec. to use a 5U4?

Thanks, Brad

Geezer · « **Reply #36 on:** January 04, 2011, 09:12:29 pm »

Brad, I'm using a Super Reverb PT (330-0-330, 200mA) and an old OT from a 50's PA amp that ran 2x6L6's cathode biased.....I suspect it to be an ~~30w unit.

Your Hammond PT's are going to be too whimpy (nothing personal

).....you need at least 150mA, the more the better. Larger OT (overkill) is good, too. With these amps, most the tone is generated in the preamp (at least @ lower volumes).

I'm now using a SS plug in the recto socket.....just liked it better in the end.

Jeff

Geezer · « **Reply #37 on:** January 04, 2011, 09:23:05 pm »

Here's the final schematic.

Let me know if you have any questions or see any mistakes.

Geezer

edit: the PI lift resistor @the NFB connection is 47R, not 470R as originally labeled.... updated schematic

Tone Junkie · « **Reply #38 on:** January 04, 2011, 11:29:02 pm »

So what did you label your front end knobs and did those two caps in parallel get rid of the problem you were having between the clean and OD channels . Thanks Bill

Geezer · « **Reply #39 on:** January 05, 2011, 05:41:21 am »

Quote from: Tone Junkie on January 04, 2011, 11:29:02 pm

So what did you label your front end knobs and did those two caps in parallel get rid of the problem you were having between the clean and OD channels . Thanks Bill

Front panel drawing attached.

Yes on the parallel caps.
~~.005~~ .01 was too small & .02 was too large, but the parallel combo equal to .015 was just right in balancing the clean & OD.
At least 1x real Dumble (#183) used this value in that slot.

G

Geezer · « **Reply #40 on:** January 05, 2011, 12:09:37 pm »

A note to those building a similar amp:

This amp is based on amps designed & built by Dumble, each one of which is individual & custom tuned to the player it was built for....each amp is very different.

Be prepared to tweak & adjust resistor & cap values to YOUR tastes & playing styles. Coupling caps, grid stoppers, snubber cap locations/values & plate voltages are all very important to finding "your" tone. I seriously doubt you will fire it up & have the "magic" tone you've always wanted (although I suppose it's possible).

Finding your tone is acheivable, & you will learn more than you can imagine (as I have), but you need to be patient & DON'T GIVE UP! If you get frustrated, walk away for a few hours (or days), then come back with fresh eyes & ears. That's what worked for me. Try different things to see how the circuit reacts (the value of alligator clip wires/jumpers is incalculable in this area!)

I will help with any questions I am able to answer, or will refer you to other places to get the help you need.

Geezer

Willabe · « **Reply #41 on:** January 05, 2011, 12:31:18 pm »

Quote from: Geezer on January 04, 2011, 09:12:29 pm

Brad, I'm using a Super Reverb PT (330-0-330, 200mA) and an old OT from a 50's PA amp that ran 2x6L6's cathode biased.....I suspect it to be an ~~30w unit.

Your Hammond PT's are going to be too whimpy (nothing personal ).....you need at least 150mA, the more the better. Larger OT (overkill) is good, too. With these amps, most the tone is generated in the preamp (at least @ lower volumes).

I'm now using a SS plug in the recto socket.....just liked it better in the end.

Jeff

Thanks, Jeff. I read back through the whole post and I don't know where I got the idea this was a 20w build. I think I'm thinking of one of the TOS, or COS variants. So I was thinking 1/2 power > 1/2 current, so my PT's could work. Oh well.

I seem to remember now that I had bought them to do a 6L6 champ build.

I'll get a standard Fender set, for 6L6, 30w/40w amp, bassman or super, maybe a pro? I know Doug has nice BF/Tweed style trans. sets that will work well for this build, I'll look there first.

Thanks again, Brad

Tone Junkie · « **Reply #42 on:** January 05, 2011, 12:46:46 pm »

Geezer isnt it amazing how with a sensitive circuit that such things as guitar pickups and tubes could cause you to have to tweek a circuit slightly to get the sound your after. That being said I just picked up some 12 way switches and built a cap, sub box. Ive been dying to try it out more.
different question sorry,when you used el34 instead of 6l6 in your other build what did have to change if anything in the cathode biased circuit.
Thanks Bill

tubenit · « **Reply #43 on:** January 05, 2011, 12:51:14 pm »

Quote

Be prepared to tweak & adjust resistor & cap values to YOUR tastes & playing styles

There is an editable schematic and Hoffman style layout right here:

http://www.el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=9498.0

Check for errors and make sure schematic and layout match OK.

With respect, Tubenit

Geezer · « **Reply #44 on:** January 05, 2011, 12:55:34 pm »

Quote

when you used el34 instead of 6l6 in your other build what did have to change if anything in the cathode biased circuit.

No, didn't change the bias, although the EL34's were biased a little cold, so the Rk could have been lowered a bit (maybe 220R, 200R or 180R?)

Quote

There is an editable schematic and Hoffman style layout right here:

http://www.el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=9498.0

THANKS T!

tubenit · « **Reply #45 on:** January 05, 2011, 06:02:16 pm »

Geezer was generous enough to provide a revised and edited schematic and also edited the layout board to more closely reflect his build.

http://www.el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=9498.msg99329#msg99329

With respect, Tubenit

drumslinger2000 · « **Reply #46 on:** January 05, 2011, 07:46:46 pm »

Thanks Geezer and Tubenit. good stuff guys!!

BarryW · « **Reply #47 on:** January 06, 2011, 09:12:43 am »

This stuff is just awesome - great playing, and greater tinkering. My list of "to do" work keeps getting longer

Tone Junkie · « **Reply #48 on:** January 06, 2011, 10:20:59 am »

Geezer if you could only have two on your footpedel which would they be obviously one would be the channel select, but what would the other be.Thanks Bill

Tone Junkie · « **Reply #49 on:** January 06, 2011, 10:26:28 am »

Sorry in looking at your schematic again i noticed you had the channel switch and trim boost on the reley.is the switch showing next to the mids what used to be yourPAB but then you said you ended up having that on all the time anyway.
The reason i ask is I was just looking at the front plate example you had and there was no switch for it, probably a later change .Thanks Bill

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Author Topic: Tweedy Bluesmeister non-HRM (Read 40276 times)