I thought somehow there was a way to cut some highs off my AA764 champ ,sorry!

[catnine]

I'm sorry to be such a pest and keep posting . There are people who offered suggestions , one was to raise the 10K second node dropping resister value the 47K just to lower the plate voltage on the 12ax7 on both triodes. The amp does have bottom end through the 10 " weber speaker . A weber sig 10 s ceramic is after all a bright speaker.

 Problem here is my line AC voltage varies depending on the time of day . I live in an old apt building so it never is above 119 VAC and never lower than 115.5 VAC.

 My last post I had all the voltages posted. The line was 116.8 VAC . yesterday the line was 118.2 VAC.

 This raised all the DC voltages like the B+ from 367 VDC to 386 VDC , the plate from 354 VDC to 371 VDC and the 12ax7 plates from 230 VDC to 240 VDC. Across the 1k node went from 364 to 382 and the 10k from 344 to 360.

 It raised the 6V6 bias from 12.80 watts to 14.1 watts. I did expect this , it comes as no surprise.

 I looked at tweed princetons using a lower powered PT they use a 10K 1st node and 22K 2nd node but were known for there early breakup .

 This build there is not a lot of room to change dropping resisters yet it can be done the only other alternative is to use the PT's 300-0-300 HT secondaries instead of the 330-0-330 which I use now . This will lower everything across the board and in doing so I may end up with a early breakup champ .

 I know the voltages I have now are not going to burn out the tubes because the tubes are still running within their spec. I know the less VDC on the 6V6 plate will cause the 6V6 to break up earlier . I assume the same applies to the plates on the 12ax7 ie lower plate earlier breakup .

 I played with different tone caps but they did not really stand out much to me.

 In the end I really just wanted a SF champ and built it off spec values for all componants .. I would rather have the output tube breakup sound than the preamp tube breakup rasp .

 Other than all of this the speaker might be the main issue .

 For those in the know , what would you do with this champ one trick poney? I swear I will not ask again and I can get rid on the highs using the treb pot but then I lose sensitivity. This is all played through single coil stock strat PU's.

[HotBluePlates]

I looked at tweed princetons ... they ... were known for there early breakup.

... I may end up with a early breakup champ.

I would rather have the output tube breakup sound than the preamp tube breakup rasp.

A tweed Princeton is different than what you have now. So is a tweed Champ for that matter. Lower voltage, and the Princeton has a simple one-knob tone control that doesn't load the preamp as much as your tone circuit does. Believe it or not, the tweed Princeton has more negative feedback than your Champ.

Your Champ will sound like a black/silverface Champ. At least until you change the tone circuit up (maybe you already have a tone circuit lift). But it's interesting that you want output tube distortion, which is exactly what your Champ will give you now (but different than the tweed circuit). The mid-scoop of the black/silverface circuit sounds different even if everything else is the same.

Other than all of this the speaker might be the main issue .

 For those in the know, what would you do with this champ one trick poney?

Try a different speaker, but don't buy one to try it. Do anything you can to taste test before buying. You might not like the changed speaker's sound.

You'll also have to accept the amp for what it is. Is it a one-trick pony? Sure. But I'd like to have back the several one-trick blackface VibroChamps I've had over the years. As well as the one-trick '54 Princeton I had. And the one-trick '67 Princeton Reverb.

All these amps aren't necessarily only capable of one cool sound, but we often have a notion in our head of "tube sound" that's radically different from reality. I've owned a lot of cool vintage amps, which I shouldn't have sold. A Harry Joyce-wired Hiwatt DR504, a '73 Marshall 50w head and basketweave 100w cab, an AC-30, '55 Tremolux, '67 Super Reverb, Matchless Clubman, etc. After you get past tone-stack differences, the basic clean tone of all these amps is similar (or can be made to be very similar). I think I kept trading, buying and selling because I thought or imagined they should sound very different than they really did. And they were all great-sounding amps with their own personality.

You can do simple stuff to zap a little high-end fizz, like placing a small-valued cap in parallel with a plate load resistor (experiment to taste-test), or add a conjunctive/corrective filter across the OT primary (but your amp's feedback loop is already handling this to some extent).

But speakers can make an amp sound great or awful at a given volume. I had a Fender Tonemaster amp, and hated the Vintage 30's in the cabinet. At bedroom volume they sounded horribly bright and edgy to me. At stage volume, they had a present quality that cut through a band, and had people walking up to say how great the amp sounded.

[labb]

As HBP said, the speaker will make a lot of difference. I have a Fender Princeton 5F2-A clone that I built in an old Fender Deluxe 85 cab using the Fender stock speaker. With the old Fender speaker it sounds like crap. Hook it up to an Eminence 12" and it sounds really good. Hook it up with a Peavey 410 and it also sound really good. See if you can't find someone that will let you try it with other speakers.

[catnine]

I understand what you are saying HotBluePlates. I tried the tone circuit lift , this was not for me at all. On the last SF champ I owned I never did measure the 12ax7 plate voltage so I have no idea how it compared to the home brew I have now yet if all things being equal I would imagine they were the same or close to it. I used the 330-0-330 DC HT secondaries because they are closer to the 325-0-325 SF champs had .

 I have had three SF champs over the years , two at the same time a 1970 and a 1980 and they did not sound the same, all I do know is they were still completely stock . Then I got a 73 and that one sounded good too, sounded better after a recap and bias and a better speaker.

 The thing about changing cap values or even tubes you can't flip a switch and A/B them . Only if there is a drastic change is the change noticed . Little changes one can convince themselves they hear it . So far yes the tone stack lift really stood out and changing the NOS 12ax7 to a JJ 12ax7 , now then I could hear less highs and also a loss in sensitivity.

 On the 73 SF champ it sounded great at real low levels with the treb and bass full on 10 and it sounded good at high levels both with the new weber sig 8 s alnico . I never found the need to move the treb and bass pots at all, and of course it was in a small fender cab . This build is in a larger cab of 3/4" plywood and a 10" speaker so that makes a difference too. I had the 73 Champ in a 71 MM bass amp cab with a weber sig 10 s alnico and then I needed to turn the bass down a tad. , made an adapter ring and installed the 8" and it was a bit more open yet this 71 cab is pine. Sorry to go on , there are all sorts of variables using the same chassis.

[catnine]

As HBP said, the speaker will make a lot of difference. I have a Fender Princeton 5F2-A clone that I built in an old Fender Deluxe 85 cab using the Fender stock speaker. With the old Fender speaker it sounds like crap. Hook it up to an Eminence 12" and it sounds really good. Hook it up with a Peavey 410 and it also sound really good. See if you can't find someone that will let you try it with other speakers.

 I know that's true . I must have had every 12 eminence had back 6 years ago , tried them all in a 77 music master bass amp and ended up with the stone henge , it just matched that amp better . The only other 12 that sounded almost as good was a jensen mod 50. The tonker was just more dark and the C rex was to mutted.

 I had a 94 fender Pro jr tweed sounded great , it had the blue alnico 10 , then I got a 2001 pro jr whcih had the black frame fender ceramic speaker and I got the blue alnico thinking it would be better , I could really not tell much difference until it was really cranked then it was subtle.

[catnine]

 With the higher line VAC you can see how this affected the VDC on all the plates . So there is no real way to calculate what affect a known B+ will have across the entire amps circuit is there? Is the only way to know for certain is to try it and see. It seems the higher Line AC raised all the voltages but not by the same ratio . The 12ax7  plate raised by 10 VDC yet the 6v6 and B+ and nodes went up 19 to 20 VDC . I have read all sorts of opinions when raising the value of the 6V6 cathode resister to bias the 6V6 at or near 14 watts when the plate is higher than the fender champ AA764 which states 350 Plate and 19VDC across a 470 ohm cathode resiter and 200 VDC on the 12ax7 plates , that if you do this that it changes the way the 6V6 reacts to clipping . I had to use a 680 cathode resister and have 26 vdc across it to be close to 14 watts  yet the amp does sound fine , there is no noise or what I would consider clipping or out of balance .