Feds raid Gibson...Again.

[G._Hoffman]

Feds raid Gibson.

They raided both the Nashville and the Memphis factories.  No word yet on exactly WHY, but it probably has to do with the same Lacey Act issues they had two years ago.  Last time, it was over Madagascar ebony, and I've heard a rumor from a believable source that the feds have found emails from the last time implying Gibson was aware the wood they had was illegal.


Gabriel

[stingray_65]

I have under good authority to proclaim that no Larches were harmed during the raid.

on a more sober note check a few of these links on the above topic of "illegal wood"

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904787404576530520471223268.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_logging_in_Madagascar.

In '99 I was doing a lot of scroll saw work, and getting pretty great at it too boot. I started messing around with doing inlay and intarsia and had a great idea when I had to get rid the old upright that had been in my grandparents barn since my mother was a child. I harvested the Ivory off the keys.

I had made about a dozen Crosses and attached  little "scrolls" on the top inscribed INRI.

The shop owner was VERY impressed and asked how I aged the Corian to look like ivory.

It took him less than 10 minutes to round up every piece and get the incinerator lit.

I swear it took him 6 months to trust me bringing in so much as a hunk of pine 2x4 without his approval!

Ray

[G._Hoffman]

Feds are raiding Gibson because of "illegal wood" !?      Our tax dollars at work.

I will trust that perhaps there is some reason and logic behind making wood illegal?

Yes, of course there is - this is a highly endangered species, which was sold by a criminal cartel which has thrown out the democratic government of a very poor and embattled nation.  Add to that the fact this wood is on the CITES treaty, of which the United States is a signatory, and it is pretty damn clear why this wood is and should be illegal to trade.  Are you trying to suggest that the government shouldn't be enforcing the laws?


Gabriel

[bigsbybender]

Like dealing with "Blood Diamonds".....  Gotta be careful. Unfortunately for Gibson the stuff probably, went through so many intermediaries that Gibson's buyer was not likely aware of the illegal nature of that timber.

[tubenit]

Gabriel,

Your post was appropriate and in keeping with the forum's theme of guitars, amps, music etc.......

You make absolutely beautiful creations out of wood & so I know wood is important to you. And I remember that you bicycle and some of that motivation is from a "green" philosophy. I respect your integrity in living out what you say. And I enjoy and appreciate your posts and contribution to the forum. You've generously shared your knowledge giving answers to some questions I've posted.
And I am grateful to that.

My posted reply inappropriately made light of something that was important to you and probably many of the forum members. My post was out of line for that reason. And my response had a political viewpoint edge to it & the Hoffman forum isn't the place for that either. So it was a poor choice on both accounts.

Where you were appropriate in your post, my reply wasn't. I am genuinely sorry and apologize. I respect you and did a poor job of honoring something you were sharing.

I meant no disrespect & sometimes my warped humor is out of place.

I value what we share in our love of woods, music, guitars and amps  &  certainly prefer to enjoy what we have in common than accent what might possibly be differing political viewpoints.


With respect, Tubenit

[rafe]

Read between the lines here. I'd rather have the DOJ go after Drugs and Illegal invaders but we are getting a bit political and I really like this forum because of its refraining from that!
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904787404576530520471223268.html

[G._Hoffman]

Where you were appropriate in your post, my reply wasn't. I am genuinely sorry and apologize. I respect you and did a poor job of honoring something you were sharing.

Your apology is accepted, but not required.  I LIKE debate - that's why I'm on the internet!  The issue with deforestation - particularly in Madagascar, where the political situation is truly disastrous - is very time critical. 

I don't actually like CITES - I think it would make much more sense to create a limited but lucrative market for these materials to encourage the local conservation of a economic resource - but since it is all we have, it needs to be enforced or it will be completely ineffective.  The fact is, most of these materials are not being sold.  For instance, most of the Brazilian rosewood that comes down these days is destroyed by slash and burn practices to create farm land to raise cattle for McDonalds and such like.  If those same farmers could make as much money by selling one or two Brazilian rosewood logs a year, the market would help to conserve the entire Brazilian rainforest.  Same for elephant ivory, or many other materials.  Madagascar is different, because their "government" is a criminal enterprise to begin with, and the only real resource they have to exploit is their forests.  And they aren't trying to create a stable workable economy for their citizens.  They are trying to pad their Swiss and Cayman bank accounts.


Gabriel

[tubenit]

most of the Brazilian rosewood that comes down these days is destroyed by slash and burn practices to create farm land to raise cattle

I love beautiful wood.  And they've been doing that for decades and it's heartbreaking. You've made some important comments about this issue. The slash and burn is unnecessary & a waste of valuable resources.

With respect, Tubenit

[PRR]

> had to get rid the old upright that had been in my grandparents barn since my mother was a child. I harvested the Ivory off the keys.

That ivory was perfectly legal to possess. There's exemptions for ivory harvested before harvesting and trafficking became illegal. Otherwise a lot of antique art and most older pianos would be criminal for no good reason.

The problem is documentation. When dead elephants are stuck to an old piano (all pianos can be dated close-enough) there a strong presumption the ivory is as old as the piano. Yes, ivory can be damaged and does get replaced. Piano techs hoard ivory from unsalvageable pianos for this purpose. If clearly connected with an old piano repair operation, nobody gets in trouble. (Or is that next?)

Yes, it would be a problem when you cut-up keyslips into crosses. There is no easy way to prove the age of the ivory. Your story that you had an old piano backed by the fact that the crosses are typical keyslip thickness might or might not prevail.

There is "new" ivory. From time to time countries are allowed to sell some, strictly monitored (supposedly). You better have strong paperwork to show your "new ivory" is legit. This mostly goes to large operations, not a guy with a scrollsaw.

There is also Mammoth ivory, quite legal, but rare and costly. (Altho for a time after 1800, mammoth from Russia was cheaper than elephant from africa/asia, better trade-route.) And Walrus, but US walrus can only be sold after being handicrafted.

And Corian and polystyrene and tagua. None of these will fool an old-time music-shop owner who once tinkled the ivories.

[Shrapnel]

...  I LIKE debate - that's why I'm on the internet!  The issue with deforestation - particularly in Madagascar, where the political situation is truly disastrous - is very time critical. 

Sadly, it is a shame that Madagascar is in such shambles, and so nearly powerless to do anything. Debate can be a healthy thing when done right. Unfortunately most of the time it doesn't get done right and gets too heated and spiteful.

The fact is, most of these materials are not being sold.  For instance, most of the Brazilian rosewood that comes down these days is destroyed by slash and burn practices to create farm land to raise cattle for McDonalds and such like.  If those same farmers could make as much money by selling one or two Brazilian rosewood logs a year, the market would help to conserve the entire Brazilian rainforest.

I hate to see that wood be wasted like that, but yet I don't want cartels to make the money from it. I would almost like to see something that could make that wood legal (I don't know if it is or isn't) but yet I can already see problems with abuse if it were so.

[G._Hoffman]

> had to get rid the old upright that had been in my grandparents barn since my mother was a child. I harvested the Ivory off the keys.

That ivory was perfectly legal to possess. There's exemptions for ivory harvested before harvesting and trafficking became illegal. Otherwise a lot of antique art and most older pianos would be criminal for no good reason.

The problem is documentation. When dead elephants are stuck to an old piano (all pianos can be dated close-enough) there a strong presumption the ivory is as old as the piano. Yes, ivory can be damaged and does get replaced. Piano techs hoard ivory from unsalvageable pianos for this purpose. If clearly connected with an old piano repair operation, nobody gets in trouble. (Or is that next?)

Yes, it would be a problem when you cut-up keyslips into crosses. There is no easy way to prove the age of the ivory. Your story that you had an old piano backed by the fact that the crosses are typical keyslip thickness might or might not prevail.

The actual law doesn't say anything of the sort.  Now, if it were ever taken to the Supreme Court and if they were ever to give an opinion on the matter, they would probably agree with you, but for right now there is NO PAPERWORK that can show you have legal reprocessed.  It just doesn't exist.  This is the single most annoying part of the CITES and Lacey Act is that they have no provisions for materials and manufactured products which have grandfather exemptions.  They SHOULD be there, and certainly if it was legal when you bought it, they can't go after you for owning something.  But the actual mechanisms for proving you are within the law do not currently exist.  This is a VERY big issue among guitar collectors and builders.  Big enough that at the Heldsburg Guitar Festival two weeks ago, they brought in a lawyer who knows this stuff to give a talk to all the luthiers.  There is paper work available for you to claim all your materials are not covered by CITES and the Lacey Act (i.e., non-protected species), but there is nothing for materials that are exempt for grandfather clauses and such.


Gabriel

[tubenit]

Yes, of course there is - this is a highly endangered species, which was sold by a criminal cartel which has thrown out the democratic government of a very poor and embattled nation.  Add to that the fact this wood is on the CITES treaty, of which the United States is a signatory, and it is pretty damn clear why this wood is and should be illegal to trade.

I've read the affidavit & it appears this has NOTHING to do with the sale of illegally harvested wood. See below:


http://ampgarage.com/forum/files/gibson__affidavit_in_support_of_sw_128.pdf

O.K., here's a brief summary of the Gibson situation.AFAIK India has for many years officially ruled that fingerboards (in their blank form) are legal to export, and that official Clarification is something that can't be argued by the U.S. government or anyone else..This ruling is nothing new, since India has allowed many millions of fingerboards to be exported for decades with no problem. There are also other factors involved:


1) The U.S. has absolutely no laws prohibiting the use of Indian (or Madagascar!) rosewood and ebony as such, only general laws that require no tribal, state, national or international laws have been violated.

2) None of this has anything at all to do with overharvesting, illegal logging, or any other environmental issues. Veneers, guitars or anything else made of these same Indian woods would have been completely legal.

3) The supposed violations named in Special Agent Rayfield's warrant affidavit concern his private interpretation of Indian law about semi-finished raw materials or component parts. Lacey doesn't allow the U.S. to disagree or argue about another country's regulations, only to enforce their compliance (which in the matter of India were being complied with according to their own written document).

4) Lacey is what's called a "fact-based" as opposed to a "document-based" statute. In other words, simply possessing legitimate-looking paperwork won't protect anyone from confiscation, fines or imprisonment if indeed laws really were broken. It's the same legal principle that has always applied in U.S. mining law, that it's not how technically accurate the filed paperwork description of a claim's boundaries are but how it's actually marked out and posted on the ground.
Several complicating and confusing glitches were made on the paperwork from LMII's Indian ebony shipment, but what counts is whether or not any actual regulations were violated. They certainly don't seem to have been (in the case of India, at least), but it's up to the courts and not us to decide guilt or innocence. Hopefully, they'll toss this one out no matter how foolish it makes Special Agent Rayfield and the USFWS appear.

The Madagascar wood raid of 09 remains problematic since it does involve endangered trees, logging in a national forest, and a questionable state of political unrest in the country at the time the wood was exported with questions about the government's validity as a legitimately recognized power.

See The Difference!!

Just an FYI.  With respect, Tubenit

[tubenit]

It appears that it is OK to export/import "fingerboards" (veneers) that do not exceed 6mm thick.  However, the shipment was listed as fingerboards/veneers and was 10mm thick.

So this raid is about 4mm difference in thickness of wood.

that stuff is in there, but what most struck me were the paragraphs about gibson allegedly intentionally tried to fool custom by mislabeling shipments and coding them to match the false label. i think that's the heart of the issues. it's also much harder to make fun of that allegation. it's much easier to say "this is stupid, are we really talking about a few tenths of an inch?!" that's part of the case, but it seems to be that the real matter is criminal and serious because gibson appears to have intentionally mislabeled shipments and then coded them to match the false labels in order to fools customs. how is that not serious? again, if this was an honest mistake, i think it would be playing out differently, but it looks like gibson intentionally engaged in criminal behavior.


Here are some problems as I see it with Rayfields report he misquotes the Indian regs by inserting a critical word "finished" that's not found in them; the wood was correctly exported as being HS 9209.92.00 according to Indian law as millions of boards have been for decades with no objections from either Indian or U.S. authorities; but due to a paperwork mistake by a neophyte broker, Rayfield (understandably) was led to equate the shipment as HS 4407 in response to the erroneous HS 4408.. Once again Here's a statement from Natalie Swango at LMII (the importer and correct consignee):

“The exporter entered the correct code for his country's export according to Indian customs. I incorrectly listed Gibson as the consignee on the Lacey paperwork...the material was destined for them, but at this time LMI owns and is (was, ?) warehousing it. The broker made a mistake and listed the material as veneers, although all other paperwork correctly listed it as fingerboards (they have remedied this with an oops letter). The warehouse employee incorrectly informed the feds as to the ownership (although they bill me for the storage fees). The officers incorrectly came to the conclusion that we are smuggling wood.”

“The broker for LMI listed the "entry" as veneers <6mm despite all other paperwork listing it as sawn wood and fingerboards in excess of 6mm. The broker sent a letter explaining the error and attempted to contact FWS to correct the entry, but they refused to speak to him. A copy of the letter was sent to LMI as well as FWS.”

He also in several places injects interpretations of Indian law, when all that Lacey insists on is conformance to another country's regulations. He's trying to redefine Indian regs in a way that the Indian government doesn't agree with and didn't intend...This whole thing could have been cleared up by a phone call..

[/quote]

[Madison]

They were "advised" to move to Madagascar if they wanted to stay in business.

[G._Hoffman]

I actually know the folks at LMII pretty well, and am more than ready to believe Natalie's explanation of events.  My father - who was a lawyer prior to his retirement, and who has been following this closer than I have - tells me the law doesn't actually say the feds have to interpret Indian law in the same way as the Indians, though that would likely get over-thrown in an appeal, and could end up as a lengthy legal proceeding.  It seems likely this was a pressure tactic trying to get more information relating to the earlier raid, where it appears that Gibson WAS breaking some laws, but it will be a while before we know for sure, if we ever do.


Gabriel

[John]

If we want more manufacturing jobs here rather than overseas, we should treat the manufacturers better. Just my 2 pennies.

[G._Hoffman]

If we want more manufacturing jobs here rather than overseas, we should treat the manufacturers better. Just my 2 pennies.

Maybe, but manufacturers should also obey the law.


Gabriel

[Shrapnel]

Some more coverage here: http://axvault.com/

[billcreller]

In Hawaii, the only place I know of that has Koa wood, it's pretty well protected.  Some is available though.....don't have a clue as to how long a Koa tree takes to grow to maturity.

[G._Hoffman]

In Hawaii, the only place I know of that has Koa wood, it's pretty well protected.  Some is available though.....don't have a clue as to how long a Koa tree takes to grow to maturity.

Koa can not be harvested from live trees.  You can only harvest trees that dies naturally. 


Gabriel

[Madison]

>>Maybe, but manufacturers should also obey the law.
>>Gabriel


Whose law?

[zendragon63]

Is there really a difference between the wood that is identified as ‘unfinished, sawn wood’ that is 10 mm thick vs ‘fingerboard’ 6mm thick wood other than it has had the planing done in some sweat shop in Mumbai?

The law, while dated, is certainly good intentioned but, because it is globally unenforceable to get the real bad guys, will really only effect those who can and will be regulated by commercial correctness. The ebony, rosewood, koa will just go elsewhere—like the diamonds. Eventually, too, the economy. It doesn’t make it right, it just makes it so. 

Gabriel, I can appreciate your concern for this issue. However in today’s world, Gibson’s situation smells more like politics than real concern. Regards

dennis

[G._Hoffman]

Gabriel, I can appreciate your concern for this issue. However in today’s world, Gibson’s situation smells more like politics than real concern. Regards

The most recent Gibson raid smells to me like a law enforcement tactic, not politics.  There is no question that the wood which was seized in 2009 was illegally transported and imported.  If they can prove Gibson knew about it, Gibson has done something which is very serious, and they should pay the price.  At the time of the 2009 raid, they got a number of emails and computers.  My understanding, unconfirmed but through a reliable source, is that they found some emails suggesting Gibson knew the wood in that instance (Madagascar Rosewood) was illegally imported.  In this new raid, they took wood, but they also took computers.  If I were to state a guess, I think the FWS is trying to get more information about the Madagascar rosewood, and are trying to pressure Gibson into giving them that information.  Kind of underhanded, but pretty common for law enforcement. 

I'm pretty confident the recent raid was legal wood, because it was sold to Gibson by Luthier's Mercantile, which is a company I am very familiar with, and knowing the degree of paper work that comes with their materials, I KNOW they are not providing anything that doesn't comply with the appropriate laws.  My contact at LMI has sent around an email that makes it pretty clear the FWS can't possibly be going after this wood because it was actually illegal - that would take an interpretation of the law that simply isn't going to fly in any court in this country (particularly as the case would be tried in Tennessee!)  So, I think their main objective was the computers, and the wood was just a way to put pressure on the execs at Gibson.


Gabriel

[simonallaway]

The most recent Gibson raid smells to me like a law enforcement tactic, not politics. 

It sounds like lawyers using law enforcement for politics...a shakedown. This article is quite enlightening:
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/278379/gibson-raid-much-fret-about-pat-nolan?page=1

[G._Hoffman]

The most recent Gibson raid smells to me like a law enforcement tactic, not politics. 

It sounds like lawyers using law enforcement for politics...a shakedown. This article is quite enlightening:
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/278379/gibson-raid-much-fret-about-pat-nolan?page=1

Nah.  I know the Tea Party has grabbed on to this, but the truth is that if Gibson knew that the original shipment was illegal, then they were breaking the law.  FWS is trying to prove that, which is perfectly reasonable and their job. 

Also, don't give anything Henry says too much weight.  He has a long history of spin.  I very much doubt that they were treating anyone at Gibson like "drug suspects."  Certainly, I haven't seen any pictures of guys on the ground with zip ties on their wrists.


Gabriel

[six el six]

@ simonallaway:

You've posted a link to an unabashedly right wing/conservative news source. This site is supposed to be non-political. I just think it would be nice if this site stayed very strictly non-political as it's such a great place to learn about tube amps.

[Ritchie200]

It's also a place where we have talked about things impacting the music industry - from tube sourcing, suppliers, and manufacturing (the good and bad), amp manufacturing and sourcing, and yes even guitar building.  We agree and disagree and go on.

If you are miffed by the "slant", just google the USA Today article - can't get much more in the opposite direction.  They pretty much state the same facts.  As far as Henry's spin - as an orchid grower, I can tell you his description of the take-down of the orchid importer was true to fact.  The 66 yr old retired guy with a flower hobby spent almost 2 yrs in jail due to his supplier failing to file one page of the appropriate stack of paperwork on his end (sound familiar?).  The flowers were perfectly legal, but that didn't matter.  Great detail and concern was published in an orchid magazine that I get - but hey, you can dismiss that because you know us flower freaks, we are all unabashedly right wing.  Their house was completely trashed.  It was also the culmination of a 6 MONTH INVESTIGATION!  Good thing they had all that extra manpower since they ran out of violent criminals to put behind bars.  Interesting to note that CF Martin has the identical path of importation and material through LMII but are very vocal supporters of the current admin.  Have not heard about their raid.  Poor Henry has been a vocal opponent since 2009 residing in a RTW State.  Hmm...  What do you think Dr. Watson?  If there was substance to the "Investigation" there would be charges.  Gibson 2009, no charges.  Gibson 2011, no charges.  Yet they still have $$$$ of "evidence" that they will not return.  They have caused over a million dollars loss due to the shutdown and confiscation of product.  Gibson is, and has been, spending thousands in legal representation.  For what?  Give me a break.

Jim

Jim

[sluckey]

This site is supposed to be non-political. I just think it would be nice if this site stayed very strictly non-political as it's such a great place to learn about tube amps.

I don't recall seeing any rules about politics. In fact, I don't recall seeing any rules. This is the "Other Topics" forum. People post all kinds of squirrely things here. Sometimes they relate to guitar amps. Sometimes not. I'm not concerned about political content. I've been here for 5 years and have never seen a political shootout. There's a high level of maturity and mutual respect among the Hoffman forum members and that makes for a mostly self-moderating forum. Amp builders have more than one interest. Doug realized that and I'm glad he set up the different forums. We do try to keep the different forums on topic, but this "Other Topics" forum is kinda wide open.

[simonallaway]

You've posted a link to an unabashedly right wing/conservative news source. This site is supposed to be non-political. I just think it would be nice if this site stayed very strictly non-political as it's such a great place to learn about tube amps.

I don't care where the story came from; I just thought it was an interesting view point of a story that a fair amount of us care about. My politics don't neatly fit into right/left buckets - life isn't like that, despite what the media would have us believe.

Our hobby/addiction is affected by all kinds of influence...our transformers cost so much in part due to copper prices...our tubes may well be priced the way they are because of the end of the cold war 20 years ago.

We don't exist in a vacuum...hahahah vacuum! get it? 

[Willabe]

Is'nt Gibson a non union shop?           Big pro union guy in office. Looks a little funny to me, but who knows. Have to wait and see what shakes out.


              Brad     

[G._Hoffman]

We talked to LMI this morning, and their view is the actual news gatherers at Fox are doing a fine job, but the editors and on-air talent is adding a lot of bulls#!t that has nothing to do with reality.  Which is par for the course, of course, and ends up meaning that the stories going out on air should be treated with extreme caution.

On the other hand, the folks at FWS HAVE informed them that any Indian rosewood over 6mm is illegal, never mind that the government of Indian disagrees.  In the even, this only effects fingerboards and bridge blanks, and does not effect backs and sides.  But I am quite certain that, given a single court hearing, the FWS interpretation will be rejected on site.  Certainly, NAMM is going to be sending a bunch of members out to lobby congress. 

The big problem with all this is that Indian is the country with the best record of sustainable forestry anywhere in the world, and they do an exceptional job of ensuring that as much labor as possible is kept in country.  Which is to say, they are doing things are right as can be, and FWS interpretation of Indian law is penalizing them for doing things right.  India is a perfect example of how the logging industry SHOULD work (creating a market for the project, thus encouraging the natives to maintain and preserve the forests), but it is important to note that it works so well there because there are a great number of regulations in place to maintain the system.  One thing it is NOT is a unregulated "free" market, so it isn't much of a Tea Party ideal to be sure.

But as for this costing Gibson "millions of dollars" in business, I very much doubt it.  They don't make THAT many guitars in a day, not at that factory, and it isn't like FWS took everything they had there.  They were back at work the next day, and if they had played by the rules with the Madagascar rosewood in 2009 (which was, without doubt, illegal wood), they wouldn't be having this problem.  Buying any wood from Madagascar is illegal these days, but even if it wasn't it would still be immoral.  They don't have a government, they have a criminal conspiracy.


Gabriel

[six el six]

@ sluckey

I stand corrected.

[Ritchie200]

Juszkiewicz discussed the raid on Hugh Hewitt’s radio show Monday night. He said he was unaware of what the federal government wanted, but said their operations would be costly for his company.

“Well, total — you know, this second raid and all-inclusive — my personal guess is somewhere in the neighborhood of $2 million to $3 million,” Juszkiewicz said.

Jim

[G._Hoffman]

Juszkiewicz discussed the raid on Hugh Hewitt’s radio show Monday night. He said he was unaware of what the federal government wanted, but said their operations would be costly for his company.

“Well, total — you know, this second raid and all-inclusive — my personal guess is somewhere in the neighborhood of $2 million to $3 million,” Juszkiewicz said.

Jim

Like I said, don't take his word for it.


Gabriel

[tubenit]

I don't recall seeing any rules about politics. In fact, I don't recall seeing any rules.

I don't remember the exact time frame but it was around the time of Katrina when a well respected forum member made some comments about "judgement" on our country.

To the best of my memory, Doug responded with a request to keep topics on amps & away from politics or religion. However, that may have been prior to the "Other Topics" forum being created. So perhaps some respectful measure of politics is appropriate?

On the Amp Garage, someone posted about the Gibson raid and the results were 13 pages of responses. The majority of which were "anti" the raid and negative towards the current government. And then it turned into a angry  flame war between some people that somewhat presented as far right vs. far left.  As far as I can remember, I have never seen 13 pages of any thread on TAG?  My impression is that people got pretty energized if not reactive around this issue.

http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15774

With respect, Tubenit

[HotBluePlates]

Juszkiewicz discussed the raid on Hugh Hewitt’s radio show Monday night. He said he was unaware of what the federal government wanted, but said their operations would be costly for his company.

As a previous employee at Gibson/Epiphone, I can't say I have anything positive to say about Henry or Dave. I have seen some shady and cold actions taken by both of them.

I would be entirely unsurprised if we found out that there was proof that Gibson did something (now or in 2009, or before) that was illegal or immoral, that management was aware of it, and did it anyway until they got caught.

Is'nt Gibson a non union shop?           Big pro union guy in office. Looks a little funny to me, but who knows. Have to wait and see what shakes out.

Tennessee is a "right to work" state, so you could say the entire state is non-union. There are unions to be sure (the musician's union, SAG and AFTRA come to mind immediately), but my point is the state's legal environment doesn't lend itself to establishing unions.

[Ritchie200]

However, that may have been prior to the "Other Topics" forum being created. So perhaps some respectful measure of politics is appropriate?
With respect, Tubenit

Yeah, I mean 'Nit and I are worlds apart - I like Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, etc.  He likes Barry Manilow, Abba, disco, etc.  He thinks Wang Chung is one of the most influential artists in the last 50 years, I'm thinking along the lines of Jimi.  I like Strats, he likes....well, Teles.  That doesn't mean we can't have a "respectful" conversation - even if we are at opposite ends of the spectrum....at least most of the time. 

In cases such as this, we have an interest due to the industry we are somewhat involved in.  What's more, we have a unique group of individuals who know the players and have first hand perspectives.  You can't get that anywhere else.  I think we are fortunate.  As Sluckey said, we are pretty much self moderating due to the mutual respect.  If anyone gets out of hand, your IP address will be given to every male enhancement advertiser on the net.

Jim

[tubenit]

I like Strats, he likes....well, Teles.  That doesn't mean we can't have a "respectful" conversation - even if we are at opposite ends of the spectrum....at least most of the time. 

Oh dear .......... the strat thing again, huh?         

Jim, you've been so brutally unkind that now you owe me a Shiner Bock and an order of onion rings.

Well, .......... thank goodness for opposite ends of the spectrum and parallel universes.     

With psuedo sort respect, 'Nit

[John]

If anyone gets out of hand, your IP address will be given to every male enhancement advertiser on the net.

Pfft. Already happened, apparently. 

[G._Hoffman]

So, basically, exactly what I thought was happening.  The Madagascar ebony was illegal, Gibson knew it, and the second raid was about the computers where they found the email proving Gibson knew it was illegal.


GIBSON SETTLES.



Gabriel

[John]

For a company of that size they got off pretty easy.

Well, I am "assuming" they're a multi-million/year in revenues, but could be wrong.

[DummyLoad]

Gibson sales in 2005: About $500 million (Gibson is a private company).

yes, they got off easy. lost about 3/4 mil. in that little fiasco. wanna bet les pauls go up?   

--DL

[Dave]

After reading through this thread, I'm still not really sure what is going on, but I do have an overwhelming feeling that it is somehow the tea party's fault....although I don't know why.

Dave

[Willabe]

After reading through this thread, I'm still not really sure what is going on, but I do have an overwhelming feeling that it is somehow the tea party's fault....although I don't know why.

 


                  Brad       

[G._Hoffman]

After reading through this thread, I'm still not really sure what is going on, but I do have an overwhelming feeling that it is somehow the tea party's fault....although I don't know why.

Dave

Naw, it's Henry Jerkowitcz's fault.  He thought the rules didn't apply to him, bought wood from a bunch of thugs who are gang raping their nation's resources, and found out he was wrong.

The Tea Party SHOULD feel they have some egg on their face, right now, since it turns out their golden boy was lying through his teeth, but I'd bet they won't see it that way.


Gabriel

[Willabe]

Part 1;

Let me say first, that I have a great deal of respect for you Gabriel and I know you have access to info on this that I don't because of your ties to the instrument makers guilds? And I'll say it again Henry very well might be guilty.

From the DOJ letter (in blue) you posted;

“As a result of this investigation and criminal enforcement agreement, Gibson has acknowledged that it failed to act on information that the Madagascar ebony it was purchasing may have violated laws intended to limit over harvesting and conserve valuable wood species from Madagascar, a country which has been severely impacted by deforestation,” said Assistant Attorney General Moreno.

"Failed to act on information?" In the end that's what the DOJ is saying Gibson did wrong? That's what/all the DOJ can prove?

It says "may have" not _did_ violate laws. What does that mean? May have? (Might have?) Did they or not?

Not very strong words/phasing in the end from the DOJ if they had such a strong case against Gibson.

Participants on the trip, including the Gibson employee, were told that a law passed in 2006 in Madagascar banned the harvest of ebony and the export of any ebony products that were not in finished form.   They were further told by trip organizers that instrument parts, such as fingerboard blanks, would be considered unfinished and therefore illegal to export under the 2006 law.

So what does that mean? If the blanks were fully sanded and had a finish coat on them, it would be legal to buy them?

In 2008, an employee of Gibson participated in a trip to Madagascar, sponsored by a non-profit organization. Participants on the trip, including the Gibson employee, were told that a law passed in 2006 in Madagascar banned the harvest of ebony and the export of any ebony products that were not in finished form. They were further told by trip organizers that instrument parts, such as fingerboard blanks, would be considered unfinished and therefore illegal to export under the 2006 law.  Participants also visited the facility of the exporter in Madagascar, from which Gibson’s supplier sourced its Madagascar ebony, and were informed that the wood at the facility was under seizure at that time and could not be moved.

Ok, who is this non-profit organization that the DOJ cites as "informing"  the Gibson employee and the other "participants"? (1. "were told that a law passed in 2006", 2. "They were further told by trip organizers" and 3'rd, "were informed".)

So is the DOJ saying because of this that Gibson broke the law? This is all the evidence they found in Gibsons computers? That's their proof?

The DOJ found that a Gibson employee was "told/informed ......" and went back to Gibson and told Gibson what he was "told/informed ......" by a non-profit organization? Yet the DOJ earlier in this same letter said only that Gibson "failed to act on information" and may have violated laws not did violate laws.  

And wasn't that the same thing that was cited with the Indian Rosewood, it was unfinished? And the Indian government said it was legal, but our guys said it wasn't? Maybe the Indian government has something funny going on with them too?    



                       Brad      
 

[Willabe]

Part 2;

Naw, it's Henry Berkowitz fault.  He thought the rules didn't apply to him, bought wood from a bunch of thugs who are gang raping their nation's resources, and found out he was wrong.

The Tea Party SHOULD feel they have some egg on their face, right now, since it turns out their golden boy was lying through his teeth, but I'd bet they won't see it that way.

Still not very clear to me what exactly the DOJ's conclusion proves or what the international law is on this and how and who gets to interpret it in an individual country?    

Nor do I see the DOJ helping in this case by what their conclusion letter reads.

"since it turns out their golden boy was lying through his teeth"? Maybe I'm not reading or understanding the DOJ's letter right but I don't see where they proved this?  All the letter Say's is "Gibson has acknowledged that it failed to act on information that the Madagascar ebony it was purchasing may have violated laws".


After all the time the DOJ has in their investigation they don't seem to have proven much at all. Sounds like to me the DOJ has got a little bit of egg on their face too and I see it as a little bit of "thugery" on the DOJ's part. Seems to me very heavy handed on the DOJ's side, to afterwards only come to their final conclusion that they present in their letter. I don't see how or why it was warranted and justified as to what they seized, how much they seized, why they've keep all of it and how they went about gathering the evidence, raid at gunpoint?      

I also find the DOJ's letter awfully short for such a Long investigation.

So, they forced a back room deal with Henry because they couldn't prove what they alleged he did wrong. He gets off the hook and the DOJ Say's to the public, we got our man, so they look good. They slap him with a fine to look tough and look like they did their job and get to say "see we were right".

To me for the "Law" to work it has to be a 2 way street and it is when it's adhered to as defined by our constitution.The end does not justify the means and the law has to upheld on both sides. I'm not so sure that the DOJ did this in this case by the evidence they cite in their conclusion letter.

Sorry but the biggest thing I see at this point that the DOJ proved is that they have the "muscle" to give Gibson a deal they couldn't refuse.     


I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall in the same room when they swung the deal to hear what BOTH sides had to say. I bet it was rich.      (I'm not laughing because Henry got slapped on the wrist and let go or at the DOJ.)



                      Brad      

[six el six]

Thanks G. Hoffman.

I appreciate the info.

[zendragon63]

OK, a plea deal. Over a technicality on the 'finishing' of the fretboard prior to export. Gibson--being a respected instrument maker--should suffer some public whipping because of their negligence. $300k is a light slap on the wrist but a slap on the wrist just the same.

As harsh as this may seem, the shoe should fit the other foot--what if we were to seize the DOJ computers and prosecute Fast & Furious? That one is pretty wrong as well. Plenty to gripe about...

Heh heh heh--who do you suppose ends up getting access to the $260,000 worth of seized Madagascar ebony boards? Thanks to all for respectful dialogue on sensitive topics. Regards

dennis

[Ritchie200]

I, for one, am waiting for the DOJ's ruling on the identical C.F.Martin raid.  About the identical materials.  Bought through the exact same importer.  Oh wait!  I guess I was mistaken - that never happened!  And why is that????  If this was truly an issue with the DOJ, we WOULD be waiting on that ruling.  Wasn't Martin just featured in the latest Obama "I've created billions of jobs" ad?

Gab, please take the blinders off.

I'm sorry, but this is such a blatant politically motivated action - it just makes me sick.

Jim