Transformer Life Span

[J Rindt]

If this is covered somewhere, I am happy to read it myself if there is a link available.....
Just wondering if anybody Really Knows how long the PT and OT from a good manufacture, are expected to live.?
Does the insulation on the magnet wire have a "life span".? Would you expect problems from a 50 year old OT.....or are they likely to go 100 years, assuming there has been no abuse of any kind.? That is....nobody dropping it in a bathtub, no giant impedance mismatch....just "normal" use. How long do you expect a good PT or OT to last.?
One reason I ask, is the premium price put on vintage amps, that are advertised as "original". Is it good to have the original PT and OT from a 1962 Fender.? Maybe the tranny set is getting pretty tired at this point.? Everything dies some day.
Are you happy to pay more for an amp that has 50 year old transformers. Or, would you rather pay less for the same amplifier, that had a 2 year old Heyboer tranny set.?
Thank You

[HotBluePlates]

Assuming no abuse, and little or no environmental effects (rust, corrosion, etc), a transformer's lifespan should be indefinite. There are possible exceptions due to the insulation used on the leads of the transformer; I'm not talking the varnish on the windings, but the leads you can see. These are the most likely to have cracking and crumbling insulation.

One reason I ask, is the premium price put on vintage amps, that are advertised as "original". Is it good to have the original PT and OT from a 1962 Fender.?

The prices of vintage amps have only a little to do with their function. The price is set by collector value. If the collector values original non-functioning Astron filter caps in a tweed Fender, then that amp will sell for more than one with replace parts that is functioning perfectly.

The vintage guitar and amp market is a specialized thing... outside of specific knowledge of why certain things are valuable, the prices will make no sense. For example, in the late 90's, tweed Fender brought the big money. Blackface Fenders were somewhat expensive, but really only for blackface Twin Reverbs and Deluxe Reverbs. When the Twin sold for ~$1800 in the late 90's, I could buy blackface Super Reverbs all day For ~$500. Eventually, people realize those amps were undervalued in comparison with some of the other models, and the price went up.

Further example: Why is a 1965 Les Paul Standard worth thousands less than a "Standard" from 3 years before, and maybe a couple-hundred thousand less than one from 6 years earlier?

If you have the answer to that one, you'll understand why it's not a matter of function.

[J Rindt]

"Assuming no abuse, and little or no environmental effects (rust, corrosion, etc), a transformer's lifespan should be indefinite"
......and that is exactly my point. I do not know of any 100 year old guitar amps, with the original tranny set, to prove how long they Really Do last.
Just curious.....with all the vintage gear that is selling for pretty big money......is having the original, 50 year old "iron" necessarily that great of a thing.? Do you think they would go another 50, in the same manner as the first 50.?
Thanks

[PRR]

The insulation WILL break-down. It is a function of time and temperature and voltage. Cold/off hours hardly count unless the dew gets in. Hot/on hours matter and can be estimated in design. Big utility iron is designed for 100,000-1,000,000 hour at heavy load (they use different insulation). Small intermittent stuff may be designed for 10,000 hours.

The calendar is not much clue. You want an hour-meter and a condensation detector installed from new. Since we don't have that, it's a gamble.

[Rev D]

 On amp values I think the reason for the increase isn't people realizing them being undervalued as much as they're guitar hero uses one. Case in point, the Super reverb.. As soon as everyone that ever wanted to be SRV saw they were available for reasonable (under a grand years ago easily) they were snapped up and the price shot up. Robben Ford and Larry Carlton (and Santana) play a dumble, bang since they never were all that available or even cheap the clone market went crazy for them. If I had a penny for everyone that wanted a Robben Ford tone I'd be a reasonably well off guy.
 If for some reason all the guitar slinger hero's of the 60's had played 55's instead of 58's and 59 Les Paul they'd be worth a half mill instead of the 58's and 9's. Of course it always comes down to supply and demand, guitarist demand certain years and models and availability (and what the market will bear, and that's where the crazy prices appear) prices them accordingly. Just my theory anyway. :D

Regards,

Don

[kagliostro]

About transformers I don't know

but when I was working from a retailer of plumbing the same water pump (same power and liters per hour)

was proposed to us, by a manufacturer, in two versions with two very different prices

(this difference wasn't explicit to the final user)

where was the difference ?

the cheap pump used underrated windings in the motor with less isolation

So I think also transformers can be build in more than one way ........

Kagliostro

[PRR]

You can use thin wire that runs hot, with cheap insulation, for short life. Or you can use fat wire to run cooler, and better insulation.

The difference is price and life.

In a water-pump for a town, the pump runs almost all the time and replacement is awkward. It is long-term cheaper to get the high-price pump.

In a one-home water-pump (like mine) the pump runs much less than an hour a day. Medium-good windings are a good buy.

A fire-pump might never run, and then only for a few hours. (The fire will either be put-out or burn-out by then.) While you don't want extra-cheap windings, it would be reasonable to design for short life.

In a water-pump the difference would also extend to bearings and impeller. Bearings can be designed for 1K or 1000K hours. Impellers tend to erode with high water flow, and tougher metal lasts longer. However it is possible the difference in cost is so small they use the good stuff in both models.

[HotBluePlates]

On amp values I think the reason for the increase isn't people realizing them being undervalued as much as they're guitar hero uses one. Case in point, the Super reverb.. As soon as everyone that ever wanted to be SRV saw they were available for reasonable (under a grand years ago easily) they were snapped up and the price shot up.

Yes, but SRV was more closely associated with the Vibroverb at that time (late-90's - early-2000's). Yeah, I know old videos show him with a Vibroverb and a Super Reverb, but people didn't care about the Super. I mentioned that amp because I knew a bunch of folks in the vintage guitar biz in Nashville around the late-90's, as well as a lot of working musicians. The working guys who went to guitar shows had commented specifically about Super Reverb's being under-priced at that time, given the sound of the amp and how cheap it was compared to a few specific blackface models.

And you're right the price shoots up once people can't get the holy grail stuff and look to what's available. It's astonishing to me what blackface Princeton Reverb's sell at today (my first tube amp), when no one really wanted them in the 90's.

If for some reason all the guitar slinger hero's of the 60's had played 55's instead of 58's and 59 Les Paul they'd be worth a half mill instead of the 58's and 9's. Of course it always comes down to supply and demand, guitarist demand certain years and models and availability (and what the market will bear, and that's where the crazy prices appear) prices them accordingly. Just my theory anyway. :D

True enough.

Do you know why the guitar hero's played the 58-60 LP Standards? Because they were so dang cheap shortly after they were new (I've read anecdotes of the guitar hero's buying these for ~$200-300 in the mid-60's). Gibson only made that model for 3 years (selling something like 1200-1600 total over that time) because they were selling strongly. Which is the reason the "LP Standard" of '63 had a new body shape, pissed of Les Paul, and was renamed the SG.

But now the price is an issue of supply and demand. I played a guy's '59 LP Standard in early 2000 when I was in Nashville. Great guitar, but you could make an equally-great guitar today. At the time, it had been appraised by Gruhn at $65k. The owner told me at that time he got it in the mid 70's for about $3k (still significant money then). He also said he would keep it a few more years, then sell it and buy a house. Gruhn has a comparable instrument right now which will only set you back $135k (which seems down from prices a few years ago).

Anyway, my main theme is that the price of "vintage" is not a matter of function or reason, but often factors that can only be explained by a collector.