Author Topic: Want to build a Trainwreck - Which one? (Read 22140 times)

LooseChange · « **on:** October 16, 2011, 08:17:57 am »

I've read a lot about Trainwrecks and I think I'd like to build one.
Got any experiences with these? Which one would you build?

(I know all about the Amp Garage forum... Looking for a less biased opinion)

Thanks!

FYL · « **Reply #1 on:** October 16, 2011, 09:37:55 am »

The Rocket is more or less a born-again Vox AC-30. Really nice with single coils and a brit-style Alnico loaded 2 x12. Easy to build.

The Liverpool (4 x EL84s) and Express (2 x EL34s or 6V6GTs) share the same preamp topology and are more "wreckish", with higher gain and better touch sensitivity. The better versions are just like the originals - bordering on the good side of oscillation, not for the faint of heart. Sound great with all kinds of geetars and quite effects-friendly. Need Marshall-style cabs.

I'd go for an Express, add a PPIMV, voice it slightly less bright and play with tubes - KT77s give IMO outstanding results.

stratele52 · « **Reply #2 on:** October 16, 2011, 03:04:25 pm »

Nice project LooseChange

Boots Deville · « **Reply #3 on:** October 16, 2011, 04:03:29 pm »

I think a better question is "in what order should I build them?"

I've built a Rocket, but with 6V6's and Reverb, so... I guess I haven't built a Rocket. But I do like it! Breaks up nicely, but not a lot of gain. Takes pedals really well too.

I've thought about the Express, but I fear that in my playing situations (volume constraints), I wouldn't be able to take advantage of what it has to offer. The PPIMV FYL suggests might be a solution, but I seem to remember folks over at TAG not being too keen on it in an Express. I may be totally off-base and not be remembering this correctly, it's but something to look into, anyway.

John

FYL · « **Reply #4 on:** October 16, 2011, 04:48:53 pm »

Quote

I've thought about the Express, but I fear that in my playing situations (volume constraints), I wouldn't be able to take advantage of what it has to offer.

The Express is a L000UD beast.

Quote

The PPIMV FYL suggests might be a solution, but I seem to remember folks over at TAG not being too keen on it in an Express.

Most are quite retentive and blindly worship the cult of KF. A proper PPIMV is AOK in an Express, scaling the PI/power stages and adding a bootstrapped MV is great, really great.

DummyLoad · « **Reply #5 on:** October 16, 2011, 04:53:00 pm »

Express (2 x EL34s or 6V6GTs) with 2 x 6V6 - you'll love it!

OldHouseScott · « **Reply #6 on:** October 16, 2011, 10:26:03 pm »

I built an Express with 6V6s and it is crazy loud. I can't imagine one with EL34s!

zendragon63 · « **Reply #7 on:** October 16, 2011, 11:36:05 pm »

Built a 2xEL84 Liverpool, 112 combo and, with the exception of the 2204 with 4x12 cab, easily the loudest amp in the stall. Changed it to run 2xEL95, still ring yer ears loud. But a great tone, sustain to be sure. A VVR helps. Kind of a one trick pony but oh what a trick! Yes, you definately need one...Regards

dennis

mageerc · « **Reply #8 on:** October 17, 2011, 06:09:10 am »

I just finished an Express and can attest that it is insanely loud with EL34s... retubing to 6V6GTs made it much more useable in a smaller venue. It is the most touch sensitive and tonefull amp I've ever owned... it's amazing how it cleans up with the guitar volume without loss of fidelity...

darkbluemurder · « **Reply #9 on:** October 18, 2011, 04:52:57 am »

I would build a Rocket with a pair of KT66s.

Cheers Stephan

John · « **Reply #10 on:** October 18, 2011, 06:09:48 am »

Just a dumb question, but what makes the Trainwreck so loud in comparison to other 6V6 amps?

Willabe · « **Reply #11 on:** October 18, 2011, 08:35:50 am »

Quote from: John on October 18, 2011, 06:09:48 am

Just a dumb question, but what makes the Trainwreck so loud in comparison to other 6V6 amps?

I think that's a good question.

Brad

firemedic · « **Reply #12 on:** October 18, 2011, 08:43:57 am »

Yeah, I'd like to know too! C'mon science guys!

LooseChange · « **Reply #13 on:** October 18, 2011, 08:52:01 am »

It has an extra gain stage as opposed to a Fender and many other amps with simular power.

tubenit · « **Reply #14 on:** October 18, 2011, 09:01:58 am »

I think the Trainwrecks typically have 3 gain stages going into an LTPI similar to AB763 Fenders (or into a concertine PI like a Princeton Reverb), so I am not sure the gain stages account for the loudness?

I am thinking that it's more the extent of gain in each of the preamp gain stages. I read statements that "they're cranked on the verge of oscillation".

With respect, Tubenit

John · « **Reply #15 on:** October 18, 2011, 10:20:30 am »

Got it, thanks!

FYL · « **Reply #16 on:** October 18, 2011, 12:24:55 pm »

Quote

Just a dumb question, but what makes the Trainwreck so loud in comparison to other 6V6 amps?

The disto spectrum and dynamics. Wrecks are some of the most touch-sensitive amps around.

John · « **Reply #17 on:** October 18, 2011, 01:23:30 pm »

And I am guessing that some of the loudness is "perceived" , much like I've read (dunno if true or not) that a SS amp is not as "loud" to the ear as a tube amp, all else being equal?

FYL · « **Reply #18 on:** October 18, 2011, 01:51:59 pm »

You're correct.

bluesbear · « **Reply #19 on:** October 23, 2011, 12:51:06 am »

I believe the loudness is not so much volume as it is the tone. I have a cathode biased BF Deluxe clone (no verb or trem) I tweaked for tone that I can't turn above 4 or 5 when playing with people using newer Blues Deluxes or Devilles. It even holds it's own against a Marshall Plexi (though at 8 or 9). My 17 or so watts against their 45 and I get yelled at for being too loud! It's got to be the tone just cuts through better. I'd bet it's the same with the Express.
BTW, I don't claim my amp is on a par with any Trainwrecks, except by luck. Ken Fisher said his best tool for amp design is luck. It may be my ONLY tool... but I'll take it!
Dave

tubenit · « **Reply #20 on:** October 23, 2011, 07:02:30 am »

Quote

I believe the loudness is not so much volume as it is the tone.

I somewhat agree with that. I would say the "clarity" and "transparency" makes it seem loud. I played the HoSo56 with 6BM8's (7-9 watts) with a band that had a keyboard and a LOUD drummer. It had no problem cutting thru the mix.

With respect, Tubenit

DummyLoad · « **Reply #21 on:** October 23, 2011, 11:22:46 am »

a friend asked me to build him one... here's my take on the layout.

the sockets mount to the board not the chassis - there is a hole cut-out for each tube in the chassis. the board mounts on 1/2" stand-offs.

plans are to start building at months end...

this layout was created using microsoft visio 2010; send me a PM if you'd like a copy of the file in visio (.vsd) and/or autocad (.dxf) format.

--DL

RicharD · « **Reply #22 on:** October 23, 2011, 11:30:39 am »

Wait.... I thought all the tone came from the perf board?

DummyLoad · « **Reply #23 on:** October 23, 2011, 11:35:48 am »

Quote from: RicharD on October 23, 2011, 11:30:39 am

Wait.... I thought all the tone came from the perf board?

don't you have some 6AU6's to smoke?

FYL · « **Reply #24 on:** October 23, 2011, 05:25:32 pm »

Here's an Hoffman-style layo for an Express (or Liverpool with a few minor mods).

zambo · « **Reply #25 on:** October 24, 2011, 04:40:10 pm »

I built a liverpool with a vvr scaling the whole thing. I changed the el84's for 6v6's but they are cathode biased and run at lower voltage than the express so its not quite one or the other. it's my favorite amp ever. They are really loud because of the focused mids and highs imho. I also built a 5 watt se version with a single 6v6. its my other favorite amp ever.

phsyconoodler · « **Reply #26 on:** October 27, 2011, 10:54:26 am »

I built a 6V6 express and it's pretty cool sounding.I used old iron from a Garnet amp that had been butchered.
Nice circuit overall but a pain to get quiet.The best tone comes from cranking the amp and using your guitar's volume control so you can imagine what it's like for noise floor.

12AX7 · « **Reply #27 on:** October 28, 2011, 10:01:07 pm »

I've often stared at TW schematics trying to figure out what it is that makes them so unique. the only thing that strikes me is that you have a tone stack where a fender would put it at the beginning of the gain stages, but unlike fender you have gain stages capable of overdrive after the stack unlike the typical marshall and many similar amps which put the stack at the end just before the PI.

Tone Junkie · « **Reply #28 on:** October 29, 2011, 02:54:37 am »

I have a 6v6 version in my amp stand right know I cant wait to get it finished.
Bill

zambo · « **Reply #29 on:** December 11, 2011, 01:23:38 am »

I cant tell you how much better my life is after playing one. I actualy quit looking for a new tone. I can bring just a chord and that amp and a guitar and it just is right all the time. Hope you get it done soon. Cheers!

LooseChange · « **Reply #30 on:** December 11, 2011, 07:38:58 am »

Quote from: zambo on December 11, 2011, 01:23:38 am

I cant tell you how much better my life is after playing one. I actualy quit looking for a new tone. I can bring just a chord and that amp and a guitar and it just is right all the time. Hope you get it done soon. Cheers!

Which model do you have??

zambo · « **Reply #31 on:** December 11, 2011, 07:33:08 pm »

It started life as a liverpool with 2 el84's. I later changed them to 2 6v6's but kept the cathode bias set up and its not bypassed. I would guess it sounds closer to an express but not nearly as loud. I also used the vvr and scaled the whole thing. I run it through an old blues deville 4x10 cab open back.

mageerc · « **Reply #32 on:** December 12, 2011, 08:13:06 am »

Loosechange, the Express is considered the most aggressive of the bunch and it really doesn't take pedals that well... the Liverpool is a little less aggressive than the Express (Brad Paisley uses one)... the Rocket will still crunch, but is the least aggressive of the Trainwreck circuits and takes pedals very well. I built and Express and it's really nice, but I'm thinking about building a Rocket now...

jim · « **Reply #33 on:** December 13, 2011, 10:02:31 am »

Dan-Do you have this pdf? Different takes on the TR Express. Jim

stingray_65 · « **Reply #34 on:** December 13, 2011, 01:04:58 pm »

I never really looked into any of the Trainwrecks before.

From the schematics it looks like there is an unused triode.

what could it be used for?

parallel input?

another gain stage is over kill,

CF after the tone stack?

be a shame to waste half a tube

Tone Junkie · « **Reply #35 on:** December 14, 2011, 02:36:40 am »

Jim thats a nice group of schematics for wrecks thanks for sharing.
Bill

LooseChange · « **Reply #36 on:** December 14, 2011, 05:12:10 am »

I've seen that set of schematics. Too MANY variations! Thanks.

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Author Topic: Want to build a Trainwreck - Which one? (Read 22140 times)

stratele52