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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: pentode/triode switch  (Read 18194 times)

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Offline jeff

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pentode/triode switch
« on: October 26, 2011, 04:28:17 am »
 I was talking with an amp tech who was telling me about a mod he was doing. He was going to add a pentode/triode switch to the power tubes and said that the switch lifts(disconnects) the screens of the power tubes. From anything I've read, to run a pentode as a triode, you connect the screens to the plate. I've never read of simply disconnecting them.
 
 Can you disconnect the screens? Does that make sense to do? Is that bad?
 
 What's the difference between disconnecting the screens and connecting the screens to the plates?

I built a PP 6V6 amp that has a switch to connect the screens to the plate or the screen supply and it sounds good. Is it possible to use a on/off/on switch to connect the screens to either the screen supply, plates, OR disconnect them for one more option???

This doesn't make sense to me, but then again, I don't know it all. Is this bad?
« Last Edit: October 26, 2011, 04:43:01 am by jeff »

Offline tubenit

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Re: pentode/triode switch
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2011, 04:44:35 am »
Every pentode/triode switch I've installed connected the screens to the plates and they all worked. Never heard of simply disconnecting the screens.

with respect, Tubenit

Offline darryl

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Re: pentode/triode switch
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2011, 06:22:31 am »
Disconnecting the screen grids of output valves will effectively cause the valves to be cut off.

Back in the 'seventies, when every amplifier had to have a standby switch - because Marshall and Fender had them - my "Standby" switch used to simply disconnect the output valve screens to mute the amplifier. If the amplifier was massively overdriven whilst in standby, then a faint and grossly distorted signal would "break through".

Offline John

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Re: pentode/triode switch
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2011, 10:28:02 am »
Another dumb question - I've heard about the triode/pentode switch, but exactly what does it change? Tone, power/loudness, or both?
Tapping into the inner tube.

Offline jojokeo

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Re: pentode/triode switch
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2011, 11:04:03 am »
All that and more such as output impedance too. You get a "browner" tone and harmonic content also can be heard.
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is research.

Offline Cups

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Re: pentode/triode switch
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2011, 06:42:40 pm »
I did a triode/pentode switch in my SE build and was getting hum in triode. In the interest of having a working amp I just left it in pentode. Couldn't really appreciate the differences in tone because the hum was bugging me but one day I'll build one right.  :icon_biggrin:

Offline jeff

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Re: pentode/triode switch
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2011, 11:06:04 pm »
But what's going on with the tube electronically with the screen lifted/disconected.

Offline bluesbear

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Re: pentode/triode switch
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2011, 10:50:32 am »
Every amp with 6L6's that I've added a pentode/triode switch to worked perfectly. Every amp where I tried it with 6V6's hummed... badly. Don't know why, don't care. Since I prefer a bright tone, I quit using them.
Dave

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: pentode/triode switch
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2011, 09:20:57 am »
Another dumb question - I've heard about the triode/pentode switch, but exactly what does it change? Tone, power/loudness, or both?

Look at the 6L6GC data sheet. The top graph on page 4 shows the normal pentode-mode curves for this tube. Now scroll up to the graph on page 3. These are the triode curves for the same tube.

The shape difference should say that the tube reacts very differently, depending on what mode is used.

Look at the curves for Ec1 = 0v on both sets of curves.

If you pick almost any plate voltage, the pentode mode has a higher corresponding current. So you might conclude that pentode mode has the potential for a bigger current output.

If you also look at the shape of the pentode 0v gridline, it rises pretty steeply at a fairly low plate voltage, before bending and running roughly horizontal. The bend, or knee, of the curve occurs at a relatively low plate voltage, and you might say allows the pentode to have a wider variation of plate voltage. This becomes noticeable if you actually draw a loadline on the curves; the pentode can swing its plate much closer to 0v than a triode can.

So pentode mode can possibly create bigger output current and voltage swings, which attacks the equation for power 2 ways. We can conclude that most of the time, pentode mode will output more power than the same tube in triode mode.

Look also at the slope of the gridlines on those graphs. If the lines were perfectly horizontal, that would indicate infinite resistance; voltage could change to any value, and current would stay unchanged. Conversely, a vertical line would indicate zero resistance. The slope of the gridline at the operating point corresponds to the internal resistance of the tube. Pentode mode lines are closer to horizontal, indicating a high internal resistance. Triode mode lines are steeper, indicating a much lower internal resistance. Under some circumstances, the lower output impedance might be a useful feature.

One thing that's harder to explain/justify without drawing some diagrams is that triode mode distortion will generally be lower. We shouldn't just say "triodes make even harmonic distortion, and pentodes make odd" because 6L6's and some other beam power tubes produce more even harmonic distortion than true pentodes. Either way, even harmonic distortion gets cancelled in a push-pull OT if everything is balanced.

Distortion might make the sound seem "brighter" or more present, even before it is obviously distortion. So the lower distortion, and that most will be cancelled in the OT (until the grid is driven positive), so triode mode will likely sound "darker" and cleaner.

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: pentode/triode switch
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2011, 09:32:45 am »
Is it possible to use a on/off/on switch to connect the screens to either the screen supply, plates, OR disconnect them for one more option???

You've probably figured out you could use an on/off/on switch, with the tube screen as the item that's switched to either select the power supply node (pentode mode), off (standby) or plate through a 100 ohm resistor (triode mode).

If you had an OT with an ultralinear tap, and used an on/on/on switch, you could select between triode, ultralinear and pentode operation.

Offline PRR

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Re: pentode/triode switch
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2011, 09:42:24 pm »
> what's going on with the tube electronically with the screen lifted/disconected.

What HBP said.

The cathode makes electrons, the first grid passes or stalls them.

But to get OUTput you have to:

1) Attract electrons
2) Catch electrons

In a true triode, the plate does both jobs.

In a pentode, G2 at high positive voltage attracts electrons, but they fly right by (mostly). The plate catches electrons (even when it is not so positive).

If G2 is grounded, or left unconnected, there's no Attraction. Electrons may wander away from cathode-grid but have no urge to fly to plate because grounded G3 (or equivalent field from "beam electrodes" and space-charge effects) "hides" the plate from electrons.

I'm sure your amp-tech mis-spoke. Either he knows G2 goes to plate, or he's going to find out soon.

Offline mesa3077boogie

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Re: pentode/triode switch
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2018, 02:27:32 pm »
Hey guys. Wonder if it’s possible to perform this mod externally without modding the amp?

You would use an octal tube base and connect pin 3 to pin 4 VIA the 1K or 1K5 resistor. Then you would connect the normal connections into another external octal socket and plug the tube into that.

Think it would work?


Offline sluckey

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Re: pentode/triode switch
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2018, 02:46:56 pm »
Should work. Don't connect pin 4 of the socket and tube base together.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline mesa3077boogie

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Re: pentode/triode switch
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2018, 03:44:24 pm »
Should work. Don't connect pin 4 of the socket and tube base together.

Ok good call! Will post my results.

 


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