tbx vs no-load tone controls

[jojokeo]

I haven't installed one of the newer "no-load tone controls" yet. I have various single coil, noiseless single coil, humbuckers, etc. in various guitars and am wondering what people prefer between the two tone controls?

Also opinions on if one type is favored over another type for an improvement with a particular pickup or sort of ruin's a certain type of pickup's sound? ie - a single coil w/ a no-load for improved input signal strenghth to the amp or maybe a tbx type for a humbucker since signal strength is not an issue and it delivers improved range of control for that style of pickup?

[G._Hoffman]

When is signal strength ever an issue, unless you've got a broken pickup?  Sure, you need to adjust the volume of your amp, but that's about it.


But to answer your question, I prefer the no-load pots.  I think tone "controls" are misnamed.  They are tone sinks, as in all your tone goes down the drain.  I don't use them much, so when I have it "off," I want it completely out of the signal.  I'm also just not that fond of the upper half of the TBX controls.


Gabriel

[HotBluePlates]

Caveat first: I've only played a TBX control a time or two in an EC strat.

The two things are completely different.

I have used no-load tone controls in a strat, and you only get a mild increase in highs compared to the "loaded" tone controls. In effect, you are making sure the tone control is completely out of the circuit. As such, you gain just a hair more high end sparkle, and in a way that some folks may not like. So the key takeaway is in most cases, this is a small effect. There might be a hair more output, but not so much that you'd notice; it's not a volume boost, to be sure.

The TBX control is a completely different animal. My understanding is from mid-detent down, it is as any tone control: a treble bleed. From mid-detent up, it is a strong mid-boost of up to 25dB. The intent is to make a strat sound like it has a humbucker in it. For that reason, it seems unnecessary in a humbucker-equipped guitar.

No-load tone pots may be a very good thing in a Les Paul. I played a real '59 Standard once, and was surprised that the pickups were slightly lower output and brighter/clearer than typical humbuckers. I worked at the Gibson Nashville plant at the time, so I was very familiar with the "normal sound". My impression was that the tone control on that guitar would actually be usable, in that a slight roll-off (to 9 or 8) would put you square on "typical Les Paul". So the slight brightening of a no-load pot may help most Les Pauls (at least to get the sound I like).

[jojokeo]

When is signal strength ever an issue, unless you've got a broken pickup?  Sure, you need to adjust the volume of your amp, but that's about it.

It may be an issue if you don't want the amp's input driven so hard that it creates overdriven distortion type of tone and you don't want that affect and want to preserve your "vintage" output and character (like installing some Texas/Hot pups for example). I prefer to leave the guitar's vol control full up most of the time for best tone since rolling it back loses high end which I don't like and I'm not a fan of treble bleed caps in situations where it causes the pups to become too bright and tinny or thin sounding.

I'm also just not that fond of the upper half of the TBX controls.

It has it's place for certain amps & songs. And yes, it "sinks tone" or bleeds off high end from the center detent downward. But from center upward it is described to increase highs and presence. And I've also heard people describe it as increasing treble from the center up while lessening the bass. So it is a sort of Treble AND Bass control then by definition.
My point is that it's also variable in it's adjustment to get just a tad more of one or the other too to "dial in" just the right amount that's needed.
So as HBP was describing - real '59 humbuckers being lower output and brighter - (I love this in a HB pup and why I have a Seymour Ducan SH-2n Jazz in a LP) is a better tone to which brings out more character and clarity from the instrument. I also have this pup wired for series or parallel because the parallel brings this out even further - a great tone to me since LPs can be so dark all of the time.
So since most humbuckers can be darker sounding (w/ plenty of bass too) - having a TBX tone control for one of these might be of more benefit to this kind of pickup allowing the bass to become lowered or rolled off while increasing the highs & presence at the same time - like having an on-board EQ control rather than the generic "treble sink" as you put it. This type of tone control (TBX-type) is never associated to be used in Les Paul-type of guitar that I know of. I'm very intrigued by the use of this combination together. Has anyone ever actually tried this? And if so, what was the outcome?

I can see that the no-load control would be the better option for a single coil rather a TBX because those are already bright & trebley w/ presence. Now, since 60Hz hum has been anoying me while playing out I've bought some Lindy Fralin Split Blades for one of my Strats. These are supposed to be clear and bright like a single coil w/out the hum of course. Maybe a no-load would be the right choice for these too? But some other lesser "humbucking single coil" pups may "need" the TBX control to insert those highs & presence back as much as possible since these are - for all intents - humbucking pups afterall.

HBP - your description of a TBX control being a "mid-boost" is incorrect. The EC strat has an "active mid-boost circuit" in it to do just that effect which is what you're thinking about. The TBX tone control may actually be just the ticket to get that original '59 tone quality out of normal humbuckers?!?

[HotBluePlates]

Yeah, once I actually looked up the EC strat, I realized the TBX and mid boost were on different pots. Oops!

In that case, I don't know how useful the TBX is. I also wonder if it is part of the active electronics on that guitar, or if only the mid boost is.

[jojokeo]

Yeah, once I actually looked up the EC strat, I realized the TBX and mid boost were on different pots. Oops!

It has a master vol, TBX tone, and the mid-boost control for the third.

*On another note, I'm replacing an 11-hole pickguard on this Strat at the same time as the pups & controls. Those darn screw-holes don't align for beans (after trying 4 other new guards too - all the same). Yeah, you could acutally re-use them but the screws don't go back down straight at all and then it looks funky & cheap when they're at varying angles not seating flush. Who knows if the new guard would end up cracking or splitting on an edge too after time from the stress? Since one of the holes was stripped I went ahead and filled 8 of them, re-drilled, sanded, and it fits like a glove now. :)

[jojokeo]

OH YEAH! I just found great TBX tone control info - check it out:

http://www.premierguitar.com/Magazine/Issue/2010/Oct/The_Fender_TBX_Tone_Control_Part_1.aspx

http://www.premierguitar.com/Magazine/Issue/2010/Nov/The_Fender_TBX_Tone_Control_Mod_Part_2.aspx

[G._Hoffman]

It may be an issue if you don't want the amp's input driven so hard that it creates overdriven distortion type of tone and you don't want that affect and want to preserve your "vintage" output and character (like installing some Texas/Hot pups for example). I prefer to leave the guitar's vol control full up most of the time for best tone since rolling it back loses high end which I don't like and I'm not a fan of treble bleed caps in situations where it causes the pups to become too bright and tinny or thin sounding.

Well, I suppose, yes, but if you are going from humbuckers to single coils, you are ALWAYS going have a change of tone, and really, isn't that the point?  I'm a little odd on this one, though, as I don't really like high output pickups, and I keep the pickups on my Strat very low (I like the bell-like chime-like thing, and I like the attack better that way).  My personal guitars (as opposed to those I make for others, which do whatever THEY want) pretty much never drive the amp very hard - though obviously those with humbuckers drive more than the single coils.


I'm with you on the high pass caps.  They do weird things to the guitar's tone, and I don't like them. 

I've bought some Lindy Fralin Split Blades for one of my Strats

What do you think of the Fralin Split Blades?  I just ordered a set of them for a customer, and I'd be interested to hear what you think.


Gabriel

[jojokeo]

I'll let you know of my findings once they're installed and whatever I end up doing w/ the tone controls there. I'm using 500k pots w/ them to preserve the high end. I think Lindy suggests this value. So I guess that means "treat em like a humbucker" and give them a .05uf tone cap too? I may try that first along w/ a 220k or maybe even a 470k resistor for the TBX control like that site suggests. I have some "special" 500k tbx pots from well over a decade ago that I may try instead of the standard ones. I think they'll be perfect for this project?

Then I'm going to do the same thing in another Strat w/ Fender's vintage noiseless pups to put in a "blackie" w/ maple fretboard.

Oh yeah, almost forgot about the "blender" control. I love that combo w/ the front and back pups & you also can get all three in parallel w/ that mod. I'll have this combo in all three of my s/s/s strats. The third one has the Gold Lace Sensors in there which I will not change on that one. It sounds really sweet and are noiseless already.

The reason for the humuckers being brought up are not only because of these "single coil humuckers" but I have a couple of Strat's that are dual humbucker configured too, ala Big Apple & Robert Cray types. One w/ fixed bridge and one w/ a highway 1 trem on it. Those will get the TBX control treatment too if things go as well as hoped? I'm looking forward to having all of my Strats being noise-free...finally!

[G._Hoffman]

Then I'm going to do the same thing in another Strat w/ Fender's vintage noiseless pups to put in a "blackie" w/ maple fretboard.

If I may make a suggestion, skip the Fender pickups - they're kind of mediocre.  Get the Seymour Duncan Classic Stack Plus instead.  AWESOME pickups.  At the moment, I would have to say they are my favorite Strat pickups, and have been for a few years now.


Gabriel

[jojokeo]

Thank you, I'll look into them. On the vintage noiseless, I hear that you have to have the heights set properly w/ the correct pots too. But even if they give you 1Meg pots, I think there's a 220k resistor wired across the terminals. This would effectively lower those pots down to below the normal 250k pots used for standard single coils. Seems pointless w/ what they're trying to accomlish. I think if 500k's were used w/out any resisitors, you'd get more/better tone from them!?
Looking for any descriptive personal experiences you can throw out there regarding tone or your impressions that could help better understand what you're describing w/ what you liked and/or didn't like w/ each? Also same w/ the SD Classic Stack plus?

[G._Hoffman]

Thank you, I'll look into them. On the vintage noiseless, I hear that you have to have the heights set properly w/ the correct pots too. But even if they give you 1Meg pots, I think there's a 220k resistor wired across the terminals. This would effectively lower those pots down to below the normal 250k pots used for standard single coils. Seems pointless w/ what they're trying to accomlish. I think if 500k's were used w/out any resisitors, you'd get more/better tone from them!?
Looking for any descriptive personal experiences you can throw out there regarding tone or your impressions that could help better understand what you're describing w/ what you liked and/or didn't like w/ each? Also same w/ the SD Classic Stack plus?

Well, I try a lot of pickups in customers guitars.  I play them all through the same amp, a Polytone Mini-Brute from about `78 (yes, it matters, there have been about a dozen different circuits, as I found out when I was trying to fix one of ours).  But the thing is, because my reference is consistent, and because it is a very clean amp, I get a good idea of the pickups.  I've only tried the Fender Noiseless through that amp, but they were pretty stale.  I liked the Duncan's enough that I put them in my Strat, and THAT I play all the time through a couple tube amps I've made - one kind of like a stout, the other a very weird variation on an AC-30.  They just have more sparkle, and more character.  Not that I can be sure that means the same to you as it does to me.  As Elvis Costello said, "talking about music is like dancing about architecture."


Gabriel

[jojokeo]

I checked out your site and geetars - very schweet indeed! I was wondering how you got all of that knowledge and then I saw you reference your father so that makes much more sense. Mine passed me down music but in a maybe more usual way. He played jazz piano & on the radio into my crib as an infant hoping it would permeate my brain and plant the seed so to speak.  

I went on to youtube to try and get some sound samples but didn't get very many. SD's site was good but then there's several that sound good too. It can make things more confusing that being a help. What I did hear sounded real good but I believe I like what you like by what you described and if I can't trust the ears of a builder/luthier/musician? You go to all that painstaking work and sanding and more sanding and more sanding, lol. ;) So I'm definately going to see about finding some used hopefully but if not, then spending the 200 bucks. What the hell, we spend all of our time making our instruments/amps, tweaking, modding, etc... If they're not that special cup of tea, I'll re-sell 'em but I have a feeling they are even better in person.

How did you find out about those? Sparkle and character are good descriptions. I also like that single coil punchy-clarity/transparancy feel where you can hear and feel every nuance and connects your fingertips from your brain down to your gut. I'm not much of a "warm" pickup guy I guess because that just usually means dull and treble-challenged.

Almost forgot to mention that I spoke w/ Lindy today and went over a bunch of things and found out he's not used tbx controls before. Hard to believe since he likely installed his pups w/out changing the other stuff on various guitars, maybe doesn't even realize it? Just shows maybe that he's focused on his things and not other stuff that he feels isn't important? Can't say that for sure, but that's my impression. Time to go wire the split blades and do some testing...after I feed the dogs and take out the trash, lol!!! 

[G._Hoffman]

How did you find out about those? Sparkle and character are good descriptions. I also like that single coil punchy-clarity/transparancy feel where you can hear and feel every nuance and connects your fingertips from your brain down to your gut. I'm not much of a "warm" pickup guy I guess because that just usually means dull and treble-challenged.

I believe they sent me a press release, but a customer may have had us put in a set.  Both of these (the Fender and the Seymour Duncan) are their particular versions of the Kinman pickups.  Of the three, I actually like the Duncan's a bit more than the Kinman's, and they are a LOT easier to get.  (Kinman's are made in Australia, and they don't have a US distributor anymore because of a bad experience a few years back, so you have to order them directly, and they can take quite a while to get.)  Other guys in my shop prefer the Kinmans, but none of us prefer the Fender pickups.


Gabriel

[jojokeo]

Of the three, I actually like the Duncan's a bit more. Other guys in my shop prefer the Kinmans, but none of us prefer the Fender pickups.

Okay, I've had a couple of height adjustments to make and play with and this is my first night testing the Split Blades but I really like 'em. Very clear but not shrill. I'm still getting used to them but so far I like them a lot. I haven't given them the heavy overdrive test yet. I put in Vintage output for the neck & middle w/ a High output for the bridge. I'm using 500k CTS pots for Master Vol and Blender controls. I made my own no-load blender scratching away the trace and it works seemlessly. This value has a nice sweep too for many shades with the extra combinations it offers. For the Master Tone control I used the standard TBX value pot but w/ "Doc's" mod of using a 220k btwn the two #1 lugs followed by the standard .02uf to ground. It sounds and is transparent (as it supposed to) in the middle/notched no-load position and is smooth w/out being too bright or lessening much bass at all turning it up fully. Turning downward from middle, it sounds good say down to 3 on the dial but then gets way too muffled past that. Next change of strings I'm going to try a .002uF instead and this may just be the ticket to make the transition complete. I'm pretty stoked and may use it for this Saturday's gig. I like the blender btwn the vol & tone w/ the tbx in it's usual place and like most tone controls...far down and away. :) Here she is after her face lift and boob job.