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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Gibson GA-5T  (Read 10582 times)

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Offline dpm309

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Gibson GA-5T
« on: December 16, 2011, 11:12:28 am »
I have a Gibson Skylark GA-5T that I am working on that when plugged in, produces a loud hum and squeal.  The first thing I am going to do is replace the 2 20/20/450V filter caps with 4 22/475 caps.  I am also going to add a 3-prong grounded cord and remove the "death cap".  This amp has a 2-conductor lamp style cord with no ground switch!  I have a question on the grounding scheme.  The schematic shows the filter caps, one heater wire, and the CT on the primary being grounded.  Looking inside the amp, I don't see this.  There is no CT on the heater and I am not sure which wire is the OT secondary CT.  The filter cap grounds are attached to a terminal strip which is attached to a 220 ohm 5W resistor and small cap.  I have attached a picture of the inside along with the schematic.  Do I need to re-attach the filter cap grounds to the chassis, along with what I think are the CTs for the PT?  I don't understand how these are grounded since they are not attached to the chassis or ground.

Thanks,

Dan

Offline phsyconoodler

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Re: Gibson GA-5T
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2011, 01:49:51 pm »
Use your ohmmeter to follow the circuit to ground.It is grounded at that location where the 220 ohm resistor and the center tap from the PT connect.You just can't see it.
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Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Gibson GA-5T
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2011, 05:17:36 pm »
HINT: The black leads on the filter caps are the negative leads, and connect to the same terminal strip lug as the red/yellow CT wire of the PT.

Offline mresistor

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Re: Gibson GA-5T
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2011, 07:42:33 pm »
so, pardon my numbness....is the actual chassis ground point inside the PT?

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Gibson GA-5T
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2011, 08:38:16 pm »
Generally, the terminal strip has one or more lugs that continue downward and form a mounting bracket. That bracket is attached to the chassis, and therefore form a ground point.

I can't really tell from your pic if the lug with the CT and PT CT then has a wire running over to another lug that is a grounding point.

Offline PRR

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Re: Gibson GA-5T
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2011, 09:44:00 pm »
> produces a loud hum and squeal.

I would start by assuming it DIDN'T "hum and squeal" when new. Gibson's electronics were less-fine than their guitars, but not crap.

And I don't see any heavy hacking.

And the main filter caps must be 40+ years old.

So I would start by replacing the main caps. Possibly with similar (not up-sized) values.

The 2-pin power may remain for initial tests. Stay on dry wood, don't touch other gear or radiators, and flip the plug for least buzz. But since you are never going to junk this amp, you may as well 3-wire it ASAP.

Offline mresistor

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Re: Gibson GA-5T
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2011, 10:15:21 am »
What I meant was, is it possible that there is a chassis ground built into the pt so it is grounded through a mounting bolt? See the ground symbol at the bottom of the pt windings in the schematic? Or is representative of a hum shield?
What is that little brown wire that we see above the 220 Ohm resistor attached to? And is that 220 Ohm resistor supposed to be 3.3K Ohm or a 130 Ohm resistor?  
« Last Edit: December 17, 2011, 10:28:51 am by mresistor »

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Gibson GA-5T
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2011, 10:38:08 am »
What I meant was, is it possible that there is a chassis ground built into the pt so it is grounded through a mounting bolt? See the ground symbol at the bottom of the pt windings in the schematic?

No, not like you mean.

The ground symbol you're talking about runs up to a dashed line running through the center of the PT symbol. That indicates an electrostatic shield; this is a shield that is placed between primary and secondary, helps reduce noise and parasitic components, and must be connected to ground. That shield cannot be connected to the PT secondary the way you guessed, because it would not perform its intended function.

When we think about "point-to-point" we sometimes think this means old Fender amps with an eyelet board and easy-to-follow wiring. In reality, it means "rat's nest" construction styles as typical in some Gibson, as well as Supro-related and many other old amps. The component leads generally form the connecting wiring, and tracing the circuit can be very difficult. There are ways to arrange parts that yield the correct electrical connections, but don't lend themselves to easily seeing what is connected where.

What is that little brown wire that we see above the 220 Ohm resistor attached to? And is that 220 Ohm resistor supposed to be 3.3K Ohm or a 130 Ohm resistor? 

No clue on the brown wire. I'd need this amp in-hand to figure the wiring scheme.

You're on the right track, though. I don't see a 220 ohm resistor anywhere on the schematic. In the picture, I do see a 3.3k resistor (Orange-Orange_Red bands, thought the red is hard to see) connected to one of the filter cap positive leads.

I also see a short hunk of wire running from the PT CT and filter negative leads. It goes to one end of the 220 ohm resistor, and what may be a small cap.

As I said, there's no 220 ohm resistor on the schematic. It looks to me like with climbing wall voltages, someone decided to raise the value of the cathode bias resistor to tame output tube current.

Offline PRR

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Re: Gibson GA-5T
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2011, 11:44:28 am »
> is that 220 Ohm resistor supposed to be 3.3K Ohm or a 130 Ohm resistor? 

Follow the yellow wire on it. Doesn't it go to output tube cathodes? Then it is the "130" resistor, but somwhat higher value.

I saw that and figured this is not your hum/squeal.

I would however snip the small e-cap on it.... this could be shorted which will bake the tubes. This cap is not needed for "clean", so you can find/fix your other problems without it. In percussive overload the value of this cap gives different tones, 10u-50u common for guitar, zero or 100+u for hi-fi.

Offline mresistor

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Re: Gibson GA-5T
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2011, 12:17:15 pm »
and the 5w size should have clued me in....     :think1:

Offline dpm309

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Re: Gibson GA-5T
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2011, 02:46:21 pm »
Thanks for all of the input!  I am going to wait until I receive the parts from Mouser in a couple of days to swap out the power cord and change the filter caps.  I can see where the filter cap grounds attach to the CT of the OT and is somehow connected to ground.  It is not attached to either of the ground lugs on the strip.  Is there any problem with attaching it to one of the ground lugs on the strip now that I will have the the chassis attached to ground on the new 3-prong cord?

What is that little brown wire that we see above the 220 Ohm resistor attached to? And is that 220 Ohm resistor supposed to be 3.3K Ohm or a 130 Ohm resistor?  
The brown wire is attached to the right side of the tagboard and another ground point on the left side of the tagboard is attached to the jacks and some of the pots (which are grounded to the chassis).  See attached pictures.  The 220 ohm resistor is attached to the cathodes of the power tubes and 20uf electrolytic cap and are both attached to the filter cap and CT ground on the strip.  The schematic shows this resistor to be 130 ohms so there must have been a change from the original schematic.  I have also ordered a 20uf e-cap in case I need to replace it also.  

So in summary, I will go ahead and connect the CT, and ground leads from the filter caps to the ground lug on the strip unless someone sees a problem.

Thanks,

Dan

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Gibson GA-5T
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2011, 04:35:04 pm »
I can see where the filter cap grounds attach to the CT of the OT and is somehow connected to ground.  It is not attached to either of the ground lugs on the strip.  Is there any problem with attaching it to one of the ground lugs on the strip now that I will have the the chassis attached to ground on the new 3-prong cord?

...

The brown wire is attached to the right side of the tagboard and another ground point on the left side of the tagboard is attached to the jacks and some of the pots (which are grounded to the chassis).  See attached pictures.  ...

So in summary, I will go ahead and connect the CT, and ground leads from the filter caps to the ground lug on the strip unless someone sees a problem.

Now that we have some wider-angle shots, I think I see what's happening with the grounding.

Filter cap grounds and PT CT attach to the 5th terminal strip lug from the "bottom" (as shown looking at the picture). A small hunk of wire connects the 5th lug to the 4th lug, where the 220 ohm cathode resistor and bypass cap find their ground. From the 4th lug, the brown wire runs over to the eyelet board. From the same eyelet that the brown wire is attached to, there is a second brown wire that runs to the front panel (possibly to a pot). If the brown wire connects to a ground lug or back of a pot, then it likely already forms the ground for the items on 4th and 5th lugs of the terminal strip.

I don't think you need to recreate the wheel with finding a new grounding point. Likely the filter caps need replacing. Everything else looks fine at a glance. None of what we've described would cause the squeal you mentioned, however multiple problems are the rule rather than the exception in a 40-50 yr old amp.

Offline dpm309

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Re: Gibson GA-5T
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2011, 11:18:08 am »
HotBluePlates,

You are correct.  I now see overall grounding scheme and will leave it as is for now.  Once I change out the caps and cord, I will report back on how the amp is working.  I will also clean out the pots and jacks since this has been sitting in a closet for several year.

Thanks,

Dan

Offline dpm309

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Re: Gibson GA-5T
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2011, 06:11:18 pm »
Have another question regarding the heater ground.  As you can see on the schematic, one of heater wires is grounded.  Pin 1 on V1 (on the 6EU7 tube, pins 1 and 2 are the heaters) is connected to the left side of the board's standoff which is grounded.  In the attached photo, you can see the yellow wire from Pin 1 to the board.  Should I leave this or disconnect and put in an artificial center tap - 2 100 ohm resistors from each side of the heater to ground?  I have installed a new power cord and filter caps and will fire it up tomorrow to see if it works.

Thanks,

Dan

Offline sluckey

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Re: Gibson GA-5T
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2011, 06:36:36 pm »
Quote
one of heater wires is grounded......  Should I leave this or disconnect and put in an artificial center tap - 2 100 ohm resistors from each side of the heater to ground?
Grounding one side of the filament string was very common in the '50s. The balanced filament string with grounded center tap is usually concidered to have superior hum rejection. But, I'd put that idea on the back burner and concentrate on fixing the amp first. The amp may even have an acceptable level of heater hum just as it is.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline dpm309

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Re: Gibson GA-5T
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2011, 11:14:38 am »
Fired her up and it is working.  Sounds good with virtually no hum so I left the heater ground as is.  Not a bad sounding little amp though I am going to suggest that the owner invest in a new speaker as this still has the stock Jensen.

Merry Christmas and thanks for everybody's help.

Dan

Offline billcreller

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Re: Gibson GA-5T
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2011, 12:52:44 pm »
I played through one of those a few years ago at Elderly's music store.  The tone was truly great.  They wanted 800+ bucks for it, so I passed....
I'll never figure this out......

 


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