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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Chassis layout, tubes up front?  (Read 5562 times)

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Offline Madison

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Chassis layout, tubes up front?
« on: February 29, 2012, 11:10:14 pm »
Typically, chassis have all the tubes in the rear (think Fender/Marshall) with the PT, etc up front with the pots.
I would like to have the tubes up front (near the pots)  and the board in the rear with the PT/OT.
Any complications doing it this way?
I am doing it for aesthetic reasons on a head.

Offline Willabe

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Re: Chassis layout, tubes up front?
« Reply #1 on: February 29, 2012, 11:22:09 pm »
Hi Madison,

Depending on the cab, there's more free air if the tubes are in the back. If you put the tubes up front in the cab they'll run hotter,
maybe too hot.

I'm workin on a 5G9 that's going in a Marshall type head chassis and cab. I put the small bottle tubes up front by the controls, but left the PA tubes in the back.

                          Brad     :icon_biggrin:
« Last Edit: February 29, 2012, 11:28:26 pm by Willabe »

Offline overtone

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Re: Chassis layout, tubes up front?
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2012, 01:53:35 am »
Hi Madison,

I do what you are suggesting but have heard that it is very naughty.
No issues so far.
I persist because I like to develop my own layouts and mount components directly between the valve sockets and the pots. The filtering and plate resistors are usually on a board.

I run a small aluminium strip along the inside front of the chassis to help screen the heater runs from the pots and flying "PTP" components.
As mentioned in the previous post, these are head cabs and have cross ventilation. I can see why it would be unwise to have ventilation up front in a production amp - think of beer throwing fans...

best, tony

230V in Frankfurt

Offline bluesbear

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Re: Chassis layout, tubes up front?
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2012, 05:58:28 am »
The bigger Allen amps put the first preamp tube right up front by the input. I used one for a couple years with no issues. The rest of the tubes were in back in the normal position.
Dave

Offline LooseChange

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Re: Chassis layout, tubes up front?
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2012, 06:14:47 am »
I've put the preamps in front with the controls and the power tubes in the back. Check out the Standard Amp.
It's nice having the preamps up front... The runs to the grids are very short.
It's a tighter fit tho'.
Call me Dan
www.fydamps.com

Offline Madison

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Re: Chassis layout, tubes up front?
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2012, 06:59:35 am »
I want to put all the tubes up front.
The chassis I will be using is super small but it will have plenty of ventilation.

Unfortunately, I have already drilled the board for a typical (tubes in rear) chassis layout and there maybe lots of complications using it.
I can see some advantages with the extremely short runs to the preamp grids from the input and such.
Disadvantages in other places.
Most of my troubles always come from the preamps section anyway so.......

I do so want to do this.
Anyways, I reckon it sounds possible?(talking my self into it here)
More input welcome.
Thanks Gents.




Offline kagliostro

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Re: Chassis layout, tubes up front?
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2012, 08:05:27 am »
Few days ago I asked to Darryl about his amps and he told me he uses to have the preamp tubes in front, the PI in the middle and the output tubes on the rear

I think you know that Darryl didn't build a board, he use a mix of PTP + Tag Strips





you can see the short connection he do for the input

However this monster head for bass (280W) was build by a guy here in Italy and has final tubes in front

http://www.diyitalia.eu/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=7947



see the amp looking from the rear



Kagliostro
« Last Edit: March 01, 2012, 08:12:10 am by kagliostro »
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Offline Madison

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Re: Chassis layout, tubes up front?
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2012, 04:58:18 pm »
>>If I'm reading the post correctly, the tubes on  are top of the Chassis and not underneath.
Correct

>>So you aren't making an EASY BAKE OVEN (TM) Is the cover on your amp going to be also be open?
Yes, pretty much.
No brownies for me thanks.

I think I just keep the wires from the board to the tube sockets on the near side (front of the head) and run the wire from the pots to the far side of the board (rear of the amp).
Like what Doug did.
http://www.el34world.com/projects/18WattStout_3.htm
« Last Edit: March 01, 2012, 05:04:14 pm by Madison »

Offline John

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Re: Chassis layout, tubes up front?
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2012, 06:02:18 am »
Madison, your idea got me thinking (always dangerous). I'd like to do the same thing, pots close to the tubes. The only trouble I can see  would be the heater wires. If I twist 'em right, would there still be more likely hood of picking up hum where they go past the other wiring?
Tapping into the inner tube.

Offline Madison

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Re: Chassis layout, tubes up front?
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2012, 07:22:07 am »
Madison, your idea got me thinking (always dangerous). I'd like to do the same thing, pots close to the tubes. The only trouble I can see  would be the heater wires. If I twist 'em right, would there still be more likely hood of picking up hum where they go past the other wiring?

Yup, those heater wires are a concern.
I'll very soon find out.
Damn the consequences.
Life is all about risks.

Offline rzenc

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Re: Chassis layout, tubes up front?
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2012, 07:29:37 am »
Madison, your idea got me thinking (always dangerous). I'd like to do the same thing, pots close to the tubes. The only trouble I can see  would be the heater wires. If I twist 'em right, would there still be more likely hood of picking up hum where they go past the other wiring?


I did it sometimes without troubles...
Ground the carcass of potentiometers and it works as a shield to the inner taper. No noise at all.


Damn the consequences.
Life is all about risks.

Well said my friend!!! :worthy1:
Best Regards
R.

Offline Willabe

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Re: Chassis layout, tubes up front?
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2012, 09:07:06 am »
Yup, those heater wires are a concern.

I asked about this one time here and on another site. A few guys posted back that they had put the preamp tubes up front a number of times with no noise problems.

The controll pots are shielded and no mater where you put the tube they will still have the heater wires going to them.

There's a few things you can try if it does prove to be a problem.

Run the preamp/PI tubes at 12.6v, half the current = half the noise, half the electrostatic field.

Use shielded twisted pair for the heater hook up wire.

Try a 70/80 dcv stand off.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2012, 09:47:23 am by Willabe »

Offline John

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Re: Chassis layout, tubes up front?
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2012, 09:39:40 am »
I've been pondering too. I think I'll try one of 2 things, either keep the heater wires elevated over the top of the sockets and bring the connections straight down like Doug advises, or else clamp the twisted pair to the chassis. I have even thought of using very light gauge aluminum to make a cover and clamp the whole business to the chassis, but figured that the likely place I'll pick up hum is right next to the socket anyway.

If I go the route of keeping the twisted pair up in the air, then I think I should keep the other wires as close to the chassis as possible.

I had even considered running the heater wires on the outside of the chassis, routed through leftover wrap from metal-clad wiring, but somehow that seemed like a Very Bad Idea.  :laugh:
Tapping into the inner tube.

Offline Willabe

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Re: Chassis layout, tubes up front?
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2012, 09:52:59 am »
If I go the route of keeping the twisted pair up in the air, then I think I should keep the other wires as close to the chassis as possible.

Like the Fender BF amps.


I had even considered running the heater wires on the outside of the chassis, routed through leftover wrap from metal-clad wiring, but somehow that seemed like a Very Bad Idea.  :laugh:

Why bother, just use a shielded twisted pair for the heater wires. Lot less work, and safer.


                      Brad     :icon_biggrin:  
« Last Edit: March 06, 2012, 09:55:17 am by Willabe »

Offline John

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Re: Chassis layout, tubes up front?
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2012, 01:29:35 pm »
Quote
Like the Fender BF amps.

Well, until I dove into this, I had played through SS my whole life. So many of the amps that you guys talk about, I've never seen except in pictures. Which has not kept me from gettin' the addiction.  :icon_biggrin:

Quote
Why bother, just use a shielded twisted pair for the heater wires. Lot less work, and safer.

I had thought of that too, but it seems the shielded wire is pretty thin for heaters. I know the 20 vs. 22 awg has been discussed here, but I was just leery. I guess for the preamp tubes it would work just fine though, they don't draw that much current anyway.

And you should hear some of the ideas I refuse to repeat.  :laugh:
Tapping into the inner tube.

Offline Willabe

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Re: Chassis layout, tubes up front?
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2012, 02:00:14 pm »
I was trying to say to use the shielded heater wire _ if _ you run into a problem. Proble wont.


                     Brad       :icon_biggrin:

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Chassis layout, tubes up front?
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2012, 02:08:57 pm »
Madison, your idea got me thinking (always dangerous). I'd like to do the same thing, pots close to the tubes. The only trouble I can see  would be the heater wires. If I twist 'em right, would there still be more likely hood of picking up hum where they go past the other wiring?

Yup, those heater wires are a concern.
I'll very soon find out.

I've spent more time planning my current build than I've probably spent building all the other amps I've ever built, combined.

So here's what I'm doing:
Similar to Darryl's phase inverter in the pictures above, I'm arranging the preamp tube sockets in a row, then putting a single strip of turrets on either side (in parallel with each other). Components get mounted (generally) by spanning from one turret strip to the other, and arranged above the tube sockets. Wiring to connect the components to the socket travels a very short distance down from the turret to the socket pin.

Because of this, the heater wiring will be run first, twisted, and dressed flat against the chassis.

Matching the original Standel style, the preamp tubes wind up being mounted horizontally; as a result, I've looked at the tubes themselves to identify the major axis of the tube, meaning the axis that the grid support rods are on. When inserted in the socket, the tubes will be naturally rotated so that the axis of the grid support rods is perfectly vertical.

The key with heater wiring is to keep the wiring away from high impedance circuits, and keep the "loop area" small. "Loop area" means the area enclosed by the heater wiring. If I ran the wiring to a given socket, then added a second wire from that heater pin to start the run to the next socket, and wrapped that wire around the socket, I might stay perpendicular to the socket pins but I've also made the "loop area" bigger.

Fortunately, the particular rotation of the sockets I arrived at allows me to run the heater wiring from a given pin (say, pin 9 of a 12A_7) right over the socket to continue on to the next tube. If you look hard at it, the heater wire still stays perpendicular to the other pins (as much as it can), while having the smallest possible loop area. And since the sockets are down on the chassis, but the components are elevated by the turret strips, they're nearly an inch away from the heater wiring, and run perpendicular to it. I'm pretty confident there will be no hum due to heater wiring.

And my preamp chassis is only going to be 4" wide, from front panel, controls, to components/sockets, to rear panel controls and rear panel. It could have been only 3" across that span, but I chose to use bigger-bodied PEC pots, and have some indivudal turret terminals to mount a ground buss seperately from the components. Filter caps and dropping resistors are at one end of the chassis, where power supply voltages enter (I'm using seperate preamp and power amp chasses).

All this is to say, sure you can do it. It would be nice if you were doing it because it provided a technically-better layout (mine has a LOT of happy accidents that make it technically-good). But you're probably familiar with this stuff to figure what is an obviously-bad idea. Just don't stick with cool-looking if it causes you to build something you knew was bad, which you'll have to fix later. Regardless, I think you also know that you can often break rules without consequences.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2012, 05:50:38 pm by HotBluePlates »

Offline John

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Re: Chassis layout, tubes up front?
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2012, 03:55:12 pm »
HPB, thanks for taking the time to write all that out!

What I'm building is actually a re-build of the HoSo. This time around I'm trying to do a nice neat job inside, and know just where I'm going to put everything  before I start mounting components. (don't ask) So I've been giving lots of thought to how I want to lay it out, and I was trying to come up with a way to keep my connections short as possible. Madison's idea with the tubes up front gave me more to think about, and I'm going to try it that way. Merlin's article on grounding made me see so many things I did wrong the first time around,and gave me even more ideas for layout.

Heck, I even plan on painting the chassis this time!
Tapping into the inner tube.

 


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