Gibson Manufacturing in trouble

[duke of earl]

This is scary stuff http://www.naturalnews.com/033454_Gibson_Guitar_armed_raid.html

[Willabe]

Yep!        

Ain't that funny how that list is laid out?     Humm....            Pretty clear too me what could be going on there.

Here's the list, from the link earl posted, yes it's a commentary, but seems pretty clear too me;
  
Sandra Young · Top Commenter
Tennessee is a right to work state....

Gibson is the only guitar company targeted by the Obama DOJ under the.
Lacey Act.
Tennessee is a right-to-work state.

Fender, Taylor, Rickenbacker, Danelectro, Carvin, MusicMan, and ESP are in California;.
Spector is in New York;.
Martin is in Pennsylvania;.
Guild, Ovation, and Hamer are in Connecticut;.
Alvarez is in Missouri;.
B.C. Rich is in Kentucky;.
Heritage is in Michigan;.
Washburn is in Illinois.
All are forced-union states.

Let's see now, humm, I count 16 to 1?   Come on, 16 to 1?  Something's not adding up right here now.        

Let's take a guess. Those 16 OEM's are buying how many more times, volume wise than Gibson? OK, so it's not all Mahogany or Rosewood or Ebony, but still, they're using those wood's, between the 16 of them, in more volume than Gibson?

I know our good friend and well respected/gifted member G. Hoffman, has commented on this, _ BUT _ at this time I'm sorry, I find it hard to believe that Gibson is the _ ONLY _  guitar maker out of this list of 16  _  major guitar manufacturers who _ supposedly _ is the _ Only _ one buying illegal wood?   Humm...

There's only a small number of limited sources to procure from the right kind of wood in the volume needed for US manufacturers to build high end guitars.

Sorry but the numbers don't add up, 16 to 1?


This is a side point but I think it's a part of this;

My father/mother owned a 16 lane bowling ally in Chgo. NW side. It was the 1'st bowling ally with automatic lanes in Chgo.

The first 3-4 years they never turned off the machines, 1951?

Why?    Because at that time most of the factories were all running  _ 3 full shifts _ , I guess life was good enough for the working man/woman at that time at least in Chgo.? They had enough $$ to buy a house and a car or 2, raise a family, and still have $$ left over to join a bowling league and drink, yes that was a big part of it back then. WORK HARD, PLAY HARD.

But then the factories started moving out of Chgo. Guess why?    

Look, I grew up in Chgo. saw a lot of funky stuff. I saw, lived through having family and friends _ Choose _ which path they would take as far as a living. I've got grammar school friends/classmates that we, who were just children back then, played softball/football on the play ground at recess, that are now either in jail now or have served time, and I'm sure, sadly, there will be more to come .  

WHY?   Because they all wanted to take a job with the city of Chgo. OK fine, But they all got caught up in the game.    




                              Brad      


(If any body wants to take me for task for my point of view on this, just PM me. I have many true/lived through/been there, stores to relate. And if we can't agree then come to Chgo. and we'll have to go out for a beer or two, maybe with a few shots of Tequila while we're hearin some good ol' Chgo blues! Great food here too! Any type you can think of!)

[G._Hoffman]

I didn't even make it past the first sentence before I saw how horribly biased that article was. 

Given that I know some of the players involved, regularly buy from the supplier who sold Gibson the wood in question, and have had long discussions with them; I can safely say I know more about the situation than most people.  The situation is WAY more complicated than that article suggests.  We've already discussed the matter a great deal on the board (in fact, I posted it the day after it happened, and maybe even the same day), so I won't go into WHY you should ignore the Faux News version of events, but will simply say that you should ignore it.  The fact is, it is all related to Gibson buying wood that they probably knew was illegal, and given the moral issues with wood from Madagascar, they deserve anything they get.

Also, take everything coming out of Gibson with a VERY big grain of salt, as Henry has a long history of making self-serving statements of questionable voracity.


Gabriel

[Willabe]

Gabe, I did not read any of the article, the only part I read was this, which is what I based all of what I posted, and at this point of time I still stand by it, the fool I am.  16 to 1, does not add up. I know you are deep in the true loop, for many years, of guitar woods and where to buy them.

All I read was this, and it's plenty for a fool like me, so some say;

 
Sandra Young · Top Commenter
Tennessee is a right to work state....

Gibson is the only guitar company targeted by the Obama DOJ under the.
Lacey Act.
Tennessee is a right-to-work state.

Fender, Taylor, Rickenbacker, Danelectro, Carvin, MusicMan, and ESP are in California;.
Spector is in New York;.
Martin is in Pennsylvania;.
Guild, Ovation, and Hamer are in Connecticut;.
Alvarez is in Missouri;.
B.C. Rich is in Kentucky;.
Heritage is in Michigan;.
Washburn is in Illinois.
All are forced-union states.

Wither or not the head of Gibson is corrupt or not, as far as sourcing his wood, is only the smaller part of what I'm saying. Maybe he is and maybe he's not.

BUT WHY IS GIBSON THE ONLY COMPANY IN THE US OUT OF THE _ 16 _ OTHER MAJOR GUITAR US COMPANYS, (which are all in FORCED UNION states) THAT ARE LISTED _ NOT _ BEING INVESTAGATED?????

SOMETHING DONT SMELL KOSHER BROTHER!

Even George Grune said after this first started, if one guitar OEM is guilty of sourcing illegal wood, then most if not all, are dead in the water, because there is only a very few places to get this quality of wood and in enough volume to buy, to keep up their out put flow.


16 t0 1 ????    Come On!      What's the common denominator here???  
 
Gabe, are you telling us that you belive that _  ALL 16 _ of these US OEMs are all kosher in their purchasing of the woods???

[duke of earl]

I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to this subject and I just stumbled across this story. I'm glad I posted it where people smarting than I could elaborate and clarify. I did not realize wood was illegal to buy, I mean come on whats wrong with buying and selling wood? Will it bring the trees to extinction?

[gmoon]

Gabe's posting on Gibson is here:
http://www.el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=12189.0

I think if someone wants to believe the slant of an article entitled Federal gestapo illegally raid Gibson Guitar factories, arbitrarily confiscate millions of dollars worth of wood used to make instruments, then that's what they'll believe...

[Willabe]

It's not the article. It's the list of states and guitar makers. This list was NOT in the article.

What about this for a slant!

 
Sandra Young · Top Commenter
Tennessee is a right to work state....

Gibson is the only guitar company targeted by the Obama DOJ under the.
Lacey Act.
Tennessee is a right-to-work state.

Fender, Taylor, Rickenbacker, Danelectro, Carvin, MusicMan, and ESP are in California;.
Spector is in New York;.
Martin is in Pennsylvania;.
Guild, Ovation, and Hamer are in Connecticut;.
Alvarez is in Missouri;.
B.C. Rich is in Kentucky;.
Heritage is in Michigan;.
Washburn is in Illinois.
All are forced-union states.

BUT WHY IS GIBSON THE ONLY COMPANY IN THE US OUT OF THE _ 16 _ OTHER MAJOR GUITAR US COMPANYS, (which are all in FORCED UNION states) THAT ARE LISTED _ NOT _ BEING INVESTAGATED?????

So, Gibson's the only guitar maker with dirty hand's?    

[G._Hoffman]

The raid in 2011 wasn't about the wood seized in the raid in 2011.  It was a tactical thing related to the wood seized in 2009 (Madagascar Rosewood, on which there is an embargo due to the way the military Junta is clear cutting island and basically raping their citizens at every turn), which WAS illegal (even Gibson admits it was illegal), and what keeps getting missed is that in 2011 they took wood AND COMPUTERS.  They were hoping, I assume, that the computers would have some record that Gibson knew the wood from the 2009 raid was illegal.  They gave a BS argument about the 2011 wood (they confiscated it under a Indian law - which is fine, that is what Lacy and CITES require - but they were interpreting the law in a way which contradicted the Indian interpretation), but it wasn't about the 2011 wood.  It was about the 2009 wood.


Gabriel

[Willabe]

but it wasn't about the 2011 wood.  It was about the 2009 wood.

Ok, If they did then they were wrong and should be held accountable, but, was Gibson the only guitar maker buying that wood in 2009?   

Still the DOJ's office can't just go in and take what they want, with out filling formal charges. Everyone has the right to his/her day in court if accused of a crime. Let them file the charges or give them back their wood. I'm not in favor of any one cheating the law on this, but this is not the way to go about enforcing the law. 

After living in Chgo. all my life I know for sure that this is all just a coincidence. I learned a long time ago, just cause there's smoke that don't mean there's a fire. Please ignore the man behind the curtain.


                         Brad     

[G._Hoffman]

but it wasn't about the 2011 wood.  It was about the 2009 wood.

Ok, If they did then they were wrong and should be held accountable, but, was Gibson the only guitar maker buying that wood in 2009?   

THAT wood, yes.  Madagascar Rosewood is wonderful stuff, but most guitar companies quit using after the coop. 

And to reiterate a point I made somewhere else recently, THERE IS NO RIGHT TO A SPEEDY INVESTIGATION!!!!!!!  Once you are arrested, then the right to a speedy trial becomes an issue, but as long as the investigating agency has avenues of investigation, they keep investigation.  As they should.  Otherwise they never would have caught, for instance, the Unibomber.  And no one has been arrested in the Gibson case.

Henry is trying awfully hard to make this into a political matter, but it really isn't. 


Gabriel

[Shrapnel]

Anybody who's been around long enough should also know by now, that laws will be interpreted any way they can be that will either justify an action, or condemn one. It doesn't matter what side you're on.

As far as interpreting an Indian law differently than they do in India? Well, it's done also with the U.S. Constitution. They ignore what the founding fathers meant in many cases, to go with what they want to interpret it as. <I'll shut up on this point now before I go political, a known and rightly justified taboo here.>

• Is Gibson guilty of using illegal woods? Maybe. I don't have all the facts to say yes or no.
• Are the other manufacturers guilty of the same? It's quite possible. But if they're never investigated, we'll never know unless somehow that information falls in our laps <we got more chance to be hit by a car AND lighting at the same time than that happening.>
• Is it possible that Gibson IS singled out in this for political reasons? Sure.
• Is it possible that if Gibson is, the others are too? Sure.
• Is it possible that Gibson's competition are funding a legal attack? Sure.
• Is it possible we are all over reacting? Maybe. Too little facts are known.
• Without a warrant for the info, the search is invalid and unsubmittable, unless they got powers to override

While I'm all for the enforcement of good laws, I'm not for the abuse of any. There are too many questions we are not privy to information on to make a factual answer in this case and probably never will be. Mr, Gabriel here is probably the closest we'll ever get to any real facts, and unfortunately, even his resources and experience won't get us close enough to the full truth.

[Willabe]

THERE IS NO RIGHT TO A SPEEDY INVESTIGATION!!!!!!!  Once you are arrested, then the right to a speedy trial becomes an issue, but as long as the investigating agency has avenues of investigation, they keep investigation.  As they should. Otherwise they never would have caught, for instance, the Unabomber.  And no one has been arrested in the Gibson case.

That's the problem, because according to the DOJ's office, at least by the action they have taken, that includes what ever they say it includes and "we'll get back to you". They want their cake and want to eat it too.

All just a little to convenient to me, but what do I know, fool that I am, I thought we were still in Kansas.


                            Brad         

[gmoon]

Who knows if it was politically motivated originally? Maybe it was. It's really all speculation.

I'm no lawyer...but it probably only takes three of them in a room to make the decision to pursue a case.

It's possible the DOJ acted on information provided internally--Gibson has only a so-so workplace reputation, currently. I don't know how accurate that is, honestly. Regardless, it only takes one disgruntled employee to pass along incriminating information.  

So, Gibson's the only guitar maker with dirty hand's?    

It might come to additional prosecutions. Who knows? Sometimes it's just as effective to go after just one highly-visible offender and intimidate, rather than prosecute the rest. Maybe the industry has already changed their import practices, which would lend credence.

Whether I agree with the law or not (doesn't seem to matter much) the DOJ probably has thousands of hours invested in this case, at the cost of millions of taxpayer dollars. But I think they act on leads they actually have, despite suspicions they might have about other manufacturers. From the DOJ standpoint (and to some extent, the taxpayers), one visible prosecution is the cheapest way to get the job done. In a perverse way, going after Gibson alone might be seen as the most bang-for-the-buck (if so that's kinda sad, but I'm sure even the DOJ has bean-counters).

[P Batty]

I must have stumbled into the wrong forum...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-17448581

[zendragon63]

I have no factual data as to how Gibson fanagled their 'wood' and they are probably guilty--at the least--of sins of omission. On the earlier thread, Gabe provided a lot of backround information giving a frame of reference as well as some of the players in this import trade. (Thanks Gabe)

Is Gibson solely at fault? It would be likely that those involved along the way--brokering, transporting, customs, etc.-- share some culpability. Something like money meets ethics? I have only a suspicion...

Gibson is about all American as Harley Davidson and if something similar were to have occurred to H-D, I can't help but think that there would certainly be similar outrage. Rightly or wrongly. Even without Willabe's slant--and that in itself reeks--I can't help but have the gut feeling that this still smells funny.

Oh yeah, I would have thought that an article out of a site like Natural News would be a little more sympathetic to the trees...

Regards

dennis

[Willabe]

Even without Willabe's slant--and that in itself reeks--I can't help but have the gut feeling that this still smells funny.

I'm not sure I understand what your saying here and that's fine.

I'm probably not able to write what I'm trying to say, maybe this we'll help?

Chicago Tribune Company (news paper) owned the Cubs and Wrigley Field up until recently. The paper was running some articles on  Mayor Daley, who was under investigation by the FBI for a number of things. It was getting very hot for the mayor, way more than ever in the past.

All of a sudden, next thing you know the city inspectors were all over Wrigley Field and were going to shut down the ball park until extensive, Big, Big, $$ repairs were done.     

Now yes, Wrigley is the 2'nd oldest ball park in baseball, but it is inspected by the city on a regular basis because of all the people that go there every year, just like any other major sports venue.  But now, uh-oh, look at this here boys, oh this is very bad, sorry but were going to have to shut you down. What they were saying was that they had found something new, that they had never noticed before. The city ended up making them put up nets under the upper deck so "concrete chunks" would not fall on fans heads.

This could be interpreted (and was by many) as the Mayor telling the Trib. just who was the boss and that they had better zip it in the news paper. So the paper backed way off and the boys of summer played ball once again. Major repairs no longer needed to be made.

This was normal business as usual in Chgo. for decades, and I'm sure it still is (meet the new boss, same as the old boss), you better play along if you want to get along or you will be punished, until you do.

Problem was, most of the time this meant the first people/businesses that would be sited for violations, which could very well be true, were the boat rockers or didn't see things the same way. The others a lot of times some how didn't get noticed.

 _ So it's half truths. _

Yes these guys here need to be looked at (and yes, they very well could be guilty), but well, we don't really need to look at these guys here. (You would rather not make it hard for any of your backers if you can help it. If you weaken them then their not as strong and can't help you as much as you might need.)

Gibson could very well be guilty, but I still find it just a little too convenient that they are the only major guitar maker in the US that is suspect at this time.

 

                   Hot dog, get yer hot dog! Beer here, get yer ice cold beer here!                    


                                    PLAY BALL!      Brad           

[zendragon63]

Willabe--sometimes I suffer from a 'failure to communicate'. 'Slant' was just what I lifted from your earlier post.

What about this for a slant!


Quote from: Willabe on March 20, 2012, 04:30:11 am
Quote from: Willabe on March 19, 2012, 11:47:01 pm
 
Sandra Young · Top Commenter
Tennessee is a right to work state....

Gibson is the only guitar company targeted by the Obama DOJ under the.
Lacey Act.
Tennessee is a right-to-work state.

Fender, Taylor, Rickenbacker, Danelectro, Carvin, MusicMan, and ESP are in California;.
Spector is in New York;.
Martin is in Pennsylvania;.
Guild, Ovation, and Hamer are in Connecticut;.
Alvarez is in Missouri;.
B.C. Rich is in Kentucky;.
Heritage is in Michigan;.
Washburn is in Illinois.
All are forced-union states.

BUT WHY IS GIBSON THE ONLY COMPANY IN THE US OUT OF THE _ 16 _ OTHER MAJOR GUITAR US COMPANYS, (which are all in FORCED UNION states) THAT ARE LISTED _ NOT _ BEING INVESTAGATED?????

Maybe 'statitically improbable and politically suspect' is what I could have said. Doesn't mean impossible, just odiferous.  Regards

dennis

[Ritchie200]

Now that we have a little more history (since the Gibson thing) on how the DOJ has been operating under E.H. and his total disregard of every constitutional right we have fought for in 235+ years, picking and choosing politically motivated fabrications, and ignoring the REAL concerns, I have little doubt about what motivated this BS.  Add the fact that they seized thousands of dollars of unrelated "evidence" that they still have not returned due to the "ongoing investigation" that they even admit has been put on indefinite hold.  Yeah, this smells, just like the whole department.

Jim

[Willabe]

Willabe--sometimes I suffer from a 'failure to communicate'. 'Slant' was just what I lifted from your earlier post.

Me too, thanks dennis.

[G._Hoffman]

Is Gibson solely at fault? It would be likely that those involved along the way--brokering, transporting, customs, etc.-- share some culpability. Something like money meets ethics? I have only a suspicion...

On the wood from 2009, most certainly not.  It came through a German dealer (Franz Dotzauer - pretty much all the purfling and herringbone in guitars is made by Dotzauer).  They have to deal with their own government on that issue, but the question for FWS is did Gibson KNOW it was illegal.

Of course, the real problem that leads to all of this is guitar players, who are (when it comes to their guitars) incredibly conservative.  (All the more incredible given how liberal and environmentally aware they are as a group!)  Brazilian rosewood is STILL one of the most requested things we get, never mind that it's been on CITES for damn near 20 years, and the quality of wood that you can get these days is crap, and you can expect to pay at LEAST $3000 extra for that inferior quality wood.  Why?  Because that's what Martin used in the 1930's, so that's what people want.  And every time anyone has tried to introduce alternative woods on high end guitars, the product has failed on the market.  Taylor has had some success on their lower end models, using things like ovangkol and sapele, but get much above $1000 and the buyers won't have it.  It can be extremely frustrating.



Gabriel

[jjasilli]

Some random comments:

*  Am I the only lawyer in this Forum?

*  This thread may be skirting the rule against political commentary.

*  Valid points are being made, even if they go in different directions.

*  Citizens and companies are entitled to equal protection of the law.  The law should be applied in an even-handed manner.  Ideally, there should not be favoritism, or even the appearance of the selective use of the law to punish people for political reasons.

*  Mere suspicion is legal grounds for an investigation.  Probable cause is grounds for an arrest.  The US Constitution (4th Amendment) generally requires a search warrant for a person's body, personal effects, and home.  Business premises do not have this protection from searches & seizures. 

[HotBluePlates]

I've posted twice, then removed both because I don't want to stir the pot on this.

All I can say is we are not in possession of all the facts. It is more probable than not that some evidence of wrongdoing exists before a gov't agency will go after a major manufacturer in this way. We'll have to wait to see what shakes out.

[rafe]

DOJ is corrupt....I'm not sure about Gibson 

[gmoon]

I'm not sure what statistical relationship is implied when seizure from almost 6% (1:17) of the major players is considered too small a percentage. Seems more like an expectation of wrong-doing, rather than a statistical metric.

Likewise, I'm out. I'm not a frequent poster, and probably haven't earned the right or the respect to go all political...

[zendragon63]

gmoon--I look at it becoming statistical relevant when you overlay the data that the other 15 companies were located in 'forced union states'. Add to that the current political climate. No real axe to grind--just my ever humble, non-scientific opinion delivered respectfully--at least that is the intention.

Gibson actually is guilty of other atrocities--like ridiculously inflated values for their reissues and signature Les Pauls. Eeek.

I am over and out on this one. Regards

dennis

[danger-russ]

Well just to give another point of view. I would probably be considered a union activists with the mining community. I would guess that this investigation started at the supplier. Most companies that have to deal with unions or progressive states, tend to be very good at covering their @$$ when they do their paperwork and handle conversations that are recorded for sarbanes oxley.
Gibson may not have been as good at skirting the law, so they got caught while others did not. It would really depend on what documentation they found when investigating the supplier. That would explain your statistics. Most likley Gibson is just caught up in this and the doj is after some bigger fish further up the line. I would think hardwood flooring, or custom cabinet makers. Buisness' that use a large volume of wood. But they have to take what they get to prove their point. I really doubt profits from all guitar sales in the United States are large enough to get the governments attention or that any guitar maker has enough cash to influence it toward their competition.

[bluesbear]

I would say
1. If Gibson's hands are dirty, and I'm not saying one way or the other, they're probably the biggest. This has always been a time honored way of doing government business. Has nothing to do with any elected officials and it's at least 236 years old. You may want to read about George Washington setting the army against Kentucky and Pennsylvania whiskey makers... and remember George was the one of if not THE largest whiskey maker in the country at the time. That's probably a worse abuse of power than any in our lifetimes.
2. If anyone really believes Obama is sitting around the White House thinking about ways to screw Gibson... or any American manufacturers, well, I've got a bridge for sale.
3. Gibson basically sells mediocre stuff at premium prices. Compare them to Yamaha, Ibanez, or even Epiphone for quality and price. I want Gibson to succeed as much as anyone but if they don't, blame them, not the government.
4. Find me a time in history when our government didn't do goofy, stupid or just plain sleazy things. Go on, I dare you to try! And it crosses all party lines.
5. Try working for the big corporations or the government without a union sometime. You're in for a wild ride.
6. If this didn't concern a company making musical instruments, I'm betting there wouldn't have been a peep on this board.
7. I got really flamed (rightly) a few years ago by mentioning something political on this board. I don't remember what it was but it didn't belong here.
Why don't we all just wait and see what it's really all about before blowing any gaskets.
Respectfully (please remember that),
Dave

[Jim Coash]

I am a new member of this forum and I am enjoying going back through some of the old posts.  I do not want to step on any toes by breaking "the rules" about how to post something new after a relatively long time.  This posting is near to my heart because I have been in Kalamazoo all my life.  I have friends and relatives who once worked at Gibson and some who now work at Heritage.  They work in the same building that Gibson built many years ago on the north side of town, the legendary "225 Parsons Street" location.  The people who work there now are not the same people who built Gibson guitars, aside from a very few.  They do, however, use most of the same equipment.  When Gibson was sold and closed down years ago the new owners just locked the door to the old factory and left it.  When a group of former Gibson employees purchased the building and opened the doors, years later, they found partially completed instruments, nearly all of the machinery used to build instruments and even a stockpile of rare woods and other materials  still on the premises.  Naturally they had to destroy most of the inventory because they did not own Gibson, they formed a new company called Heritage.  There was no problem for them to use what remained as long as it violated no laws.  This is to some degree why the very first Heritage instruments were so good; they were made by experienced people using fine woods and the same machinery used to make Gibson guitars for years.  I felt terrible about some of the instruments that bore the classic Gibson name built in various places around the world not so long ago.  My feeling now is that modern Gibson instruments are very good quality.  The kinds of problems I describe are not just something that happened to them.  Fender, Ampeg and any number of other companies have suffered the same fate.  Some have come back, some haven't.  Only time will tell how things work out.  Suffice it to say there are very few great companies still owned and run the way they were in their heyday, whenever that was.  I play Gibson and Heritage guitars.  All were made in Kalamazoo.  Jim