Best and CHEAPEST equipment for joints

[Shrapnel]

Guys,

I know that what I'm asking has probably been asked about before, although I can't find any threads going into details about what I'm asking (or at least in the way I'm asking.) In your humble opinions, what is the best equipment for making cabinet joints AND is an inexpensive solution? Last joints I made were butt-joints, years ago, and further back was joints made with pieces cut at 45 degree angles with a block added to the inside of the joint. i.e. My experience is minimal at best.

Is the Dovetail machine from Harbor freight worth hauling home and using?
Or would I be bettter of with this one from Home Depot?

Or even this one? (Is this one the same one referred to in the EZ-Pro II thread?)

Should I consider finger joints instead (in which jigs for seem to be more geared to table saws)? At best, because of where I live (apartments) I am limited to hand type power-tools.

Some other joint? Ultimately I do want to cover the cabinet.

Thanks in advance.


[EDIT: fixed links as SMF didn't see I had included the http when my link was in quotes.]

[G._Hoffman]

The Harbor Frieght dovetail jig is the same design as the one I use (though mine is from Rockler), and it works great. 

If you really want cheap, get a simple Kreg pocket screw jig, or a router bit for biscuit joints.  You can also do mortise and rabbits, which are good with plywood or MDF, but not so great for solid woods.



Gabriel

[Shrapnel]

AS my plan is to use a good plywood, I'll look into those options. Thanks.

[stingray_65]

I've built most of my cabs with dowels.

Very easy, strong, no real specialty tools.

Dumb question to you, If you don't have a table saw, how do you size your cab panels?

[Shrapnel]

I've built most of my cabs with dowels.

Very easy, strong, no real specialty tools.

Dumb question to you, If you don't have a table saw, how do you size your cab panels?

I have yet to build one. Simplest solution is to let the hardware store cut the primary size of the pieces (for those that will.) Otherwise I'd either see about a hand-held circular saw or a hand-held "jig" saw. (Circular I know would be faster)... I'm going to go for option 1 first though.

[LooseChange]

Cheapest is not making any joints and just glue, screw and clamp. Add a cleat in if you feel the cabinet is going to be rough handled. Adding a substantial back or open back cross member makes a world of difference. Don't use that thin stuff fender uses on the backs... Those late seventies 135 watt Twins just fell apart.

[cbass]

I've built most of my cabs with dowels.

Very easy, strong, no real specialty tools.

Dumb question to you, If you don't have a table saw, how do you size your cab panels?

A circular saw a straight edge and  two clamps.On
Most skill saws The blade is an 1 1/2"  from the edge of the base.So you clamp your straight edge an 1 1/2" from where you want to cut and keep the base tight against the straight edge. Cut plywood from the backside because any tearout will be on top when using a skillsaw Although sawblade tearout isn't really a concern if you are going to roundover the corners an tolex

[jjasilli]

I've only built a few cabs, and used tongue-and-groove.  With 3/4" material I use a router table, and a 1/2" bit to take 1/4" of wood off side-ends to make the tongue in the top & bottom pieces; then a 1/4" bit to route the grooves in the side walls.  You could duplicate this without a routing table, using the temporary fence arrangement.  Tongue-and-groove is strong, and looks OK if the cab will be covered.  It has worked well for me.  It dispenses with the need for a dovetail jig.  You could also get, or build, a bench-top router table (instead of a jig, for now) - very useful & easy to store.

Cut plywood from the backside because any tearout will be on top when using a skillsaw Although sawblade tearout isn't really a concern if you are going to roundover the corners an tolex  Note that you can eliminate or reduce tearout even more:  1.  Put masking tape over the line to be cut;  and/or 2. Add a thin hardwood base to the bottom of the existing base of the circular saw; then plunge the saw blade into the wooden base to cut a narrow groove into the hardwood base.  The groove will be the same narrow width as the saw blade.  This will help prevent the plywood from tearing.

[G._Hoffman]

AS my plan is to use a good plywood, I'll look into those options. Thanks.

Just to be clear, the rabbit and mortise was the only one I wouldn't use on solid woods.  Pocket screws and biscuits both work fine on most things, though I might not use biscuits on MDF. 

Also, the rabbit and mortise (as opposed to the mortise and tennon) is better with manufactured panels (plywood, MDF, etc.) because the manufactured materials are usually made stronger on the outer skins than in the middle.  The theory behind it is sort of like an I-beam.  You don't need so much density and strength in the middle, so you can lighten the panel and save some materials, and lower the cost by using less saw dust in the middle of an MDF panel, or by using a lower grade of veneer in the middle of your plywood.  A traditional tenon cut from the center of a manufactured panel will not be nearly as strong as a rabbit. 

Mind you, having a dovetail jig already, I can't think of a good reason to use anything else.


Gabriel

[cbass]

Cut plywood from the backside because any tearout will be on top when using a skillsaw Although sawblade tearout isn't really a concern if you are going to roundover the corners an tolex  Note that you can eliminate or reduce tearout even more:  1.  Put masking tape over the line to be cut;  and/or 2. Add a thin hardwood base to the bottom of the existing base of the circular saw; then plunge the saw blade into the wooden base to cut a narrow groove into the hardwood base.  The groove will be the same narrow width as the saw blade.  This will help prevent the plywood from tearing.

+1 I usually just score the line im cutting if I'm really worried about tear out.and use a high quality sharp blade.

[jazbo8]

Simple box join made with table-saw and dado blade http://woodgears.ca/dovetail/index.html, it's strong too!

Jaz

[Willabe]

If you look at that site, the box joint has way more glue surface area and the fingers go all the way through. The dove tail is only a half blind, so the tails do not go all the way through plus there's less glue surface area that on the box joint.

To me it's no wonder why the dove tail joint was weaker than the box joint. I think if the dove tails where through tails it would have been just as strong or at least very close in strength.


                        Brad     

[jazbo8]

You are probably right, but box joins are easier to cut...

Jaz

If you look at that site, the box joint has way more glue surface area and the fingers go all the way through. The dove tail is only a half blind, so the tails do not go all the way through plus there's less glue surface area that on the box joint.

To me it's no wonder why the dove tail joint was weaker than the box joint. I think if the dove tails where through tails it would have been just as strong or at least very close in strength.


                        Brad     

[Willabe]

Nothing wrong with box (finger) joints at all. And yes you can cut them on a table saw and get great reasults.

But a good jig can be easy to use and get great results too. 6 to 1, 1/2 a dozen to another.     

[sluckey]

Amen! And you can also cut precision finger joints with a router table and a very simple miter gauge jig. Very similar to cutting on a table saw, but produces cleaner cuts IMO. Ever watch the old man and his son on the PBS show called Router Workshop?

[Willabe]

And you can also cut precision finger joints with a router table and a very simple miter gauge jig. Very similar to cutting on a table saw, but produces cleaner cuts IMO.

Yup, that's true too.

Ever watch the old man and his son on the PBS show called Router Workshop?

Yeah, those guys make it simple. I love it how they use those little brass (?) blocks instead of using a tape measure or ruler to set up all there cuts on the router table.  

[andrew_k]

rizzler and kiff.







sorry 

[sleepyhead]

Hi,

Although I have a dovetail jig and love the way the results look it was not cheap. If I was looking just to make speakers or amp heads I would choose the router table and make finger joints. They look and work really good. Be careful, it's one very dangerous piece of equipment. 20,000+rpm and tungsten carbide eats fingers in an instant. Take good care.

with respect

John

[G._Hoffman]

Hi,

Although I have a dovetail jig and love the way the results look it was not cheap. If I was looking just to make speakers or amp heads I would choose the router table and make finger joints. They look and work really good. Be careful, it's one very dangerous piece of equipment. 20,000+rpm and tungsten carbide eats fingers in an instant. Take good care.

with respect

John

Routers are a lousy way to do finger joints.  You will always be fighting tear out.  It can be done, sure, but you will have much better results with a well setup table saw, but the amount of time it takes to get them really tuned in is a pain, which was the whole point of this thread, IIRC  (sorry, no, that was a different thread, but still true).  A simple dove tail jig isn't too bad, price wise, and is MUCH easier to set up.


Gabriel

[Willabe]

Routers are a lousy way to do finger joints.  You will always be fighting tear out.

I'll be the first to say that Gabriel is a _MUCH_ better wood worker than I'll _EVER_ be. Just take a look over at his site, amazing skills and product.    

But, I bought a Porter Cable router jig set up mid 90"s. I only made 5, maybe 6 cabs with it but it worked really well for me once I figured out 2 things.

1. I had to use a spiral fluted up-cut bit. I did have to go in slowly, nice and easy, when first contacting the face of the wood. The spiral bits (knife) cutting edge makes contact with the wood at only one place at a time, as opposed to a straight bits (knife) edge that hits the the face of the piece your cutting all at once. This stopped the tear out cutting into the face of the wood.

2. I had to put a 1/4" sacrificial piece of backing wood behind the piece I was cutting to stop the tear out as the router bit went out through the back of the piece I was cutting.

The cuts for the fingers were 1/4"x 3/4", with _NO Knots_ were the cuts would be. Trying to cut through knots in wood with spinning cutting tools, whether they be router bits or saw blades, your just asking for trouble and you'll find it too, very soon. I once shot a small knot across the room like a bullet.          

Once I did those 2 things the cuts were IMO about as perfect as you can get.  


                                  Brad        

 

[G._Hoffman]

The cuts for the fingers were 1/4"x 3/4", with _NO Knots_ were the cuts would be. Trying to cut through knots in wood with spinning cutting tools, whether they be router bits or saw blades, your just asking for trouble and you'll find it too, very soon. I once shot a small knot across the room like a bullet.          
 

That's why you never stand in line with the blade of a table saw.


Gabriel

[galtjunk]

Check out the Incra I-box for cutting box joints.
I works on a table saw or on a router table.
The setup is simple, accurate and foolproof.
Even I can do it.

Check out Eureka Zone for a reasonably priced track saw.
You can accurately cut full sheets of plywood without having to wrestle it around.

Search for both items on YouTube.

[jjasilli]

G._Hoffman:  You can also do mortise and rabbits, which are good with plywood or MDF, but not so great for solid woods.


Ditto to that.  I've always called it tongue & groove. I've had no problems using solid pine boards.  The big box stores sell jointed boards for wider stock, so warping is no concern.  I like the resonance of solid pine.  But for a "dead" cab, plywood or MDF are good.  IMHO, everyone should first have a router table, and some standard bits - usually before investing in specialty jigs & bits.  If the cab is to be covered anyway, then tongue & groove is a good choice, and a breeze to set-up.  I use a 1/2" straight bit to cut a 1/4" tongue along the center of the ends of 3/4" stock for the top & bottom panels.  I.e., the 1/2" bit is set to remove 1/2 of its diameter (1/4"), on either side of the tongue.  A 1/4" straight bit cuts grooves in the side panels. 

Alternatively, a table saw & dado bit could be used for those cuts (but I don't have a dado blade). Wooden pegs can be used for reinforcement if desired.

[G._Hoffman]

G._Hoffman:  You can also do mortise and rabbits, which are good with plywood or MDF, but not so great for solid woods.


Ditto to that.  I've always called it tongue & groove. I've had no problems using solid pine boards.  The big box stores sell jointed boards for wider stock, so warping is no concern.  I like the resonance of solid pine.  But for a "dead" cab, plywood or MDF are good.  IMHO, everyone should first have a router table, and some standard bits - usually before investing in specialty jigs & bits.  If the cab is to be covered anyway, then tongue & groove is a good choice, and a breeze to set-up.  I use a 1/2" straight bit to cut a 1/4" tongue along the center of the ends of 3/4" stock for the top & bottom panels.  I.e., the 1/2" bit is set to remove 1/2 of its diameter (1/4"), on either side of the tongue.  A 1/4" straight bit cuts grooves in the side panels. 

Alternatively, a table saw & dado bit could be used for those cuts (but I don't have a dado blade). Wooden pegs can be used for reinforcement if desired.

Not quite the same joint, and there are very important differences when using manufactured materials (MDF and plywood, but PARTICULARLY MDF).  Manufactured materials are designed to make the best possible use of their resources, and one of the effects of this is that they tend to be built along the same lines as an I beam or a torsion box - i.e., the surface skins are quite strong, but the interior is meant to be lighter in weight.  This gives you the best possible strength to weight ratio.  This is most obvious with MDF, where the surfaces are made of a very hard and stiff skin, but the interior is significantly softer and can be almost powdery.  (Not really, but if you've ever worked with MDF, you know what I mean.) 

This has some major consequences for joining manufactured materials.  You REALLY don't want to rely on the center of any manufactured material, and particularly MDF, for your joints.  So, where you would want your tongue centered for a piece of solid wood, you want to make sure it includes one of the surfaces with any manufactured material.  (This is less true with plywood than with MDF, fiberboard, or OSB, but with most grades of plywood they are much less careful with the interior layers than the surface layers, so it is still wise for your designs to incorporate the surface layers in your joints). 

With solid woods, you want to try and balance the stresses through the piece of wood, so you want to center the tenon in the piece of wood.  (Mostly - there are some exceptions to this, of course.) 


Gabriel

[jjasilli]

Thanks, Gabe!  Good to know.  The tongue & groove could just as well be fully offset, to incorporate an outer surface for better load bearing.

[G._Hoffman]

Thanks, Gabe!  Good to know.  The tongue & groove could just as well be fully offset, to incorporate an outer surface for better load bearing.

At which point it goes by a different name.  Not that the name matters, for the most part. 


Gabriel