New fender tweed champ vs kits?

[12AX7]

Has anyone played one of these fenders and also played or owned any tweed champ kits? I ask because a friend of mine who lives too far to casually drive over and try his new fender tweed champ is swearing up and down the thing is awesome. Made me wanna buy one, but at around a grand for a box with a couple caps and resistors i'm inclined to look at kits. But do any sound as good as the fender? i have also looked online and it seems they are getting rave reviews for a lot more than just my friend. If you've tried one and a kit, which kit was it and how did it compare?

[tubeswell]

$1k is such a lot of money for an SE amp, and if you built a kit you'd have the usual kit-building fun.  I know where I'd put my money. ;-) YMMV

[12AX7]

yeah, it's a lot of $ for that. But still, i want to know if any kits compare. From what i've been reading it seems as tho the fender may stand out over any kits. And actually, i can get a pretty hefty discount that will bring it down to around 8 bills, only 3 more than most full kits. And the fender will retain value and actually go up in coming years where a kit will be worth very little after the sale.

[triode]

Is it your intention to sell it for a profit later? Collecting amps to sell later is never a good
idea...

My $0.02, call an amp builder. I used to build tweed 5F1s for people with really good components
for $500 (not a kit). They are too easy to make, even with great parts. It will sound better than the fender
(what, they are not using the best stuff I can tell you that, they are in it for the profit) and $1000
for an amp with $120 in parts (at Fenders price points)?!?!? That is just nuts.

[12AX7]

Is it your intention to sell it for a profit later? Collecting amps to sell later is never a good
idea...

Oh god no ! I'm just saying, if i ever sell a kit will bring next to nothing and you'll lose most of your investment. Anything with the fender name will retain it's value and even gain over the years. So i'd rather spend more knowing that is it also sounds better. And as i said, i'm not saying it does, but everything i've read and my buddys experience seem to suggest the fender sounds amazing.

My $0.02, call an amp builder. I used to build tweed 5F1s for people with really good components
for $500 (not a kit).

Then i will likely pay a LOT more. If i felt a scratch build would be better i'd do that myself. All the amps i've built to date i scratch built. But i have no idea what transformers to get that will sound superior, and other than that theres not much to them to worry about boutique caps and such. Also, kits come with speaker and box, neither of which is cheap on thier own. It would add another $250-300 to a scratch build. Picking a "perfect" speaker and buying the cab and all parts myself will likely cost more than a kit, possibly a lot more. So going that way might make the fender even less distant on the price scale. It's already close at $500 for a kit and $800 for the fender. $300 diff yes, but upon selling i'd probably lose a lot more on the kit.

That said, if you know what components will trun out a superior sound than the fender and cost no more than a kit, then i might consider that over a kit. But i'd still like to hear from someone who's played both the fender and a kit to put this idea I got reading and hearing about the fender to rest.

[phsyconoodler]

All the tweed champs I ever built sound better than the Fender one by a fairly wide margin.Nothing special in mine,just none of the crap Fender uses in the reissues.
  Do yourself a favour and get a Mojotone or whatever champ kit and have fun!

[echuta13]

If it were me... I'd roll my own.  One of my favorite builds is a 5f2a Princeton in a 5e3 cab.  I use a beefier output transformer, ss rectification, and more filtering in the power supply, as the most significant mods (besides the size/type of the speaker which is huge).  I think the last one cost around $650 for a one-off build.

[12AX7]

Ok, i'm going for the build. Gotta figure out just what tho. I'd prefer to roll my own, but is there a place that sells just the chassis and box? That way i can pick my own components, use whatever parts i already have, and choose a speaker. So who sells the box and chassis reasonably cheap, and who makes a good sounding reasonable tranny set? Mag comp? Hammond?

[jeff967]

my 1st build, no kit, all parts and all info came right from Mr. Hoffman!!!

[Fresh_Start]

IMHO a 5F2-A circuit in a Tweed Harvard (or later Princeton) cab with a 10" is a GREAT amp.

I suggest that you call Mike Marsh at Marsh Amplification and see if he'll cut you a deal on the following items.  For some inexplicable reason, he sells Mojo cabs, chassis and kits for less than Mojo does.

Tweed Princeton Cab (with 10" baffle and I think larger box than Tweed Champ) $206
5F2-A chassis (including eyelet board) $90
Mojo Champ/5F2-A PT (assuming he sells it) ($72 or less)
Weber Signature 10A -or- 10A100 if you want to go all out (might have to go to Weber for the 10A100) either $40 or $90, respectively

I'd get the OT from Hoffman (4 ohm secondary only IIRC), along with Orange Drop coupling caps, carbon comp resistors, modern filter caps, pilot light, power cord, switches, knobs, wire and whatever else you need.  Personally, I think Mercury Magnets iron is grossly over-priced and Doug's iron is at least as good but YMMV.  I didn't see a single-ended power transformer on this site but may have missed it.

If you prefer a turret board and want to buy it, turretboards.com has 'em for $25.

NOS 5Y3-GT rectifier tube $20
Penta (good Chinese) or Tung Sol 12AX7 $14
Tung Sol 6V6 $18

To me, the speaker, transformers (especially OT), tubes, and the cab are the core for good amp tone.  These are ALL better than what Fender uses in their reproduction Champ.

All of that adds up to less than $650, even if you go with the better speaker, and you'll have a dynamite amp.  Plus the fun of building it yourself!  You may not be able to sell it on eBAy for much, but anyone who plays through the amp will pay something reasonable.

As you've already figured out, ordering from too many sources eats you alive with shipping costs.  I try to buy as much as I can from Hoffman but always end up with at least 2 or 3 suppliers.

Personally, I'd add an extra filter stage and small choke (Hammond 156L: 5 Henries, 75ma current, 135 ohms, 400 volt max) before the plate "node" on the power rail. You need to add a filter cap "before" the choke - refer to Champ 5E1 schematic.  It reduced the noise level a lot.  Also, I shot for about 300 volts on the plates to match other Tweed Champs which show voltages.  You may need to use a dropping resistor or some zener diodes to get the voltage down with modern wall voltages.

Cheers,

Chip

[12AX7]

Thanks, i'll refer to that post when i decide where to get what. But i'm gonna have to think this out for myself. The info here will help in that regard.

One question.....I see the champ used a different preamp tube i'm not familiar with. Is this the way to go or would anyone recommend a 12ax7 instead? Does the fender use the original tube/ (who'd number i don't have handy)

[John]

The 5c1 lists a 6SJ7, which is a small signal pentode I believe. The 5e1 used the 6SL7 which is a dual triode.

[Willabe]

Doug's got all you need to build a tweed Champ, except the speaker and cab.


                           Brad      

[Greenmachine]

Is it just me, or does anyone else think a new Fender amp will only depreciate in value?  I think the only Fender amps that'll appreciate in value are the black and silverface (to a much less extent) amps.  Don't mean to be a wet blanket or anything.

[Fresh_Start]

Thanks, i'll refer to that post when i decide where to get what. But i'm gonna have to think this out for myself. The info here will help in that regard.

One question.....I see the champ used a different preamp tube i'm not familiar with. Is this the way to go or would anyone recommend a 12ax7 instead? Does the fender use the original tube/ (who'd number i don't have handy)

Sorry, I just assumed you were talking about a 5F1.  That's kind of the classic Tweed Champ that most kits are based on.  Is this the little beastie your friend has:

http://www.fender.com/products/search.php?partno=2330100000

Or this one?

http://www.fender.com/products/clapton/models.php?prodNo=8161500

Or a "1957 Champ Reissue" which doesn't appear on Fender's website?  (looks like the Clapton Vibro Champ replaced it maybe?)

All three of those use a 12AX7 preamp tube.

Look at the bottom of this page for Doug's "huge library of schematics".  BTW the 5E1 had a choke like I described earlier, but the power tube plate and screen grid aren't filtered separately.

You'll find additional information about different models in the Fender Amp Field Guide.

Have fun!

Chip

P.S.  I think Greenmachine has a good point about new Fenders.  Anybody want to buy my Blues Jr.?  I might sell it to my ex-wife but no one else...

[12AX7]

Yes, the clapton model replaced his. He got one of the last ones probably. It's the 57.  Never saw that champion thing.

I see now...there are some champs with 12AX7's and some with that other tube. But which schematic is the same as the 57? 5E1?

[Fresh_Start]

Yes, the clapton model replaced his. He got one of the last ones probably. It's the 57.  Never saw that champion thing.

I see now...there are some champs with 12AX7's and some with that other tube. But which schematic is the same as the 57? 5E1?

None of the above.  The "57 Reissue" isn't exactly like any Fender Champ from the '50s.
57 Champ Schematic

The first triode's cathode resistor is bypassed, like the 5E1, but there's no choke in the power supply.  The power tube plate and screen grid have separate filter caps (nodes) on the power rail like the 5F1.  Actually, it's closest to the Princeton 5F2-A but without the Tone control.  Also, the preamp plate voltages (150 vs. 175) and power tube plate voltage (305 vs 340) are higher in the Reissue.  The negative feedback resistor is 27K instead of 22K like most single-ended Tweeds, so there's a bit less NFB.  There's a screen grid resistor (470 ohm 2 watt) that wasn't in any Tweed Fender, plus a couple of safety diodes between the power transformer and the rectifier tube (not a bad idea at all - search for "Immortal Amplifier Mods").

Fender did to the Tweed Champ what I did to the Tweed Princeton - mix 'n match ;)

Chip

[12AX7]

He'll be letting me try the amp monday. So if i feel it just kills and want exactly that, i suppose i;'ll follow the new schematic. As to chokes, not sure a choke really matters in a amp like that anyways, does it? I've tried A/B'ing them with a resistor in small amps before w/o noticing anything really.

[echuta13]

The choked added in pre-plate should minimize your 120hz hum.   Probably wouldn't sound any different... Might have a different "feel" perhaps.   I use a bassman choke in mine (4H/90ma).