Welcome To the Hoffman Amplifiers Forum

September 07, 2025, 07:36:28 pm
guest image
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
-User Name
-Password



Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Bias voltage measurement  (Read 3707 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline ampgeek

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 422
  • Viva La Tube!!
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Bias voltage measurement
« on: June 16, 2012, 09:55:13 am »
Had a fellow amp builder ask me this question the other day regarding a well functioning, fixed bias P-P amp plan:  What happens to the bias voltage when a signal is going through the amp?  Meaning, if you were measuring, say, -40'ish VDC on the control grid of the power tubes with no signal what would it read with a signal.

I thought that it would remain at the quiescent measurement because only AC comes through with the signal (assuming the PI coupling caps are OK) and that shouldn't change the DVM reading.

He reports that it drops to -55'ish VDC when throwing a well struck power chord at the input.

I couldn't get my head around that!

I didn't ask about the amp details because it was more of a academic question than anything.

TIA
Dave O.

Offline jjasilli

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 6731
  • Took the power supply test. . . got a B+
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Bias voltage measurement
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2012, 10:52:29 am »
Bias voltage is set at idle, i.e. no signal. As signal strength increases, the power tubes draw more current from the wall outlet through the PT.  The power amp & its components become a larger load.  The load is a form of impedance, because its resistance to current flow varies with signal strength and the frequency of the signal.  Anyway, per Ohm's Law, the increased load causes a voltage drop in the power supply, under signal conditions.  Usually the bias supply is sourced from the amp's general power supply.  So when that drops, so does the bias voltage -- which varies in lock stop with the changes in plate (& screen) voltage.  So it remains "constant" in a proportional or relative sense.  For the bias voltage to remain absolutely constant, it would have to be sourced independently from the amp's general power supply, or be Regulated.

Offline fdesalvo

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 399
  • "...I can walk!!"
    • Adam's Attic
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Bias voltage measurement
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2012, 11:07:20 am »
Makes me wonder what the effect on tone/feel would be if running bias from an independent source.
~F
"Ruining good moments since 1975."

Offline jjasilli

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 6731
  • Took the power supply test. . . got a B+
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Bias voltage measurement
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2012, 12:35:42 pm »
The bias must be set to correspond to the amount current flow through the tube; and the current flow increases with signal strength.  If the bias point were held absolutely constant as signal strength increased, an absolute bias point would actually get colder & colder with respect to current draw.  This could eventually push the tubes into cut-off, and before that, unpleasant distortion.  (See the Aiken amps tech page on Bias).  This is an issue with cathode biased amps, especially as output power increases.  Historically, as amps became more powerful, hitting the +50W range, manufactures went to fixed biased amps to address this issue.  However, the term "fixed" bias is misleading if taken literally.

Hi-fi guys like a regulated bias supply.  But this requires that the B+ supply be regulated also.  That way bias & plate voltage cannot get out of whack under signal.  In fact, the bias should not be regulated, or separately sourced, unless the B+ supply is also regulated.   To me this is a throwback to the very early days when there were only triode power tubes.  In Class A, the triode's current draw remains constant at 100%, signal or not.  And there's not even a screen to monkey with current draw under signal.  So current draw, plate voltage and bias point remain locked.  (Except for impedance changes due to signal frequency.  But this can be addressed with bi- or tri-amping; and splitting the frequency range with active crossovers into the multi power amps.)  Anyway, a regulated power supply will theoretically cause the modern P-P amp to mimic an old triode power amp.  So, this stability is a holy grail for some segment of the tube hi-fi world.   Whether it actually sounds good I don't know.  Some say that the amount of regulation required makes a tube amp sound sterile.

Offline HotBluePlates

  • Global Moderator
  • Level 5
  • ******
  • Posts: 13127
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Bias voltage measurement
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2012, 02:38:09 pm »
Had a fellow amp builder ask me this question the other day regarding a well functioning, fixed bias P-P amp plan:  What happens to the bias voltage when a signal is going through the amp?  Meaning, if you were measuring, say, -40'ish VDC on the control grid of the power tubes with no signal what would it read with a signal.

...

He reports that it drops to -55'ish VDC when throwing a well struck power chord at the input.

I couldn't get my head around that!

Hey Dave!

You and a friend are atop 10ft ladders, on wither ends of a 40ft rope. You stretch it essentially tight between you, and the rope remains a consistent distance from the ground. That's your d.c. bias. The difference is you and your friend are physically above ground, while with respect to output tube bias, the electrical situation is mirrored and "below ground."

Now you and your friend shake the ends so that you develop a wave in the rope. The rope, at various points, rises above and drops below the height you maintained when the rope was stretched tight. That's your d.c. bias with a.c. superimposed.

Imagine (for whatever reason) you and your friend shake the rope so hard and far that the peaks of the rope's wave run into the ground. This might approximate a d.c. bias with a superimposed a.c. signal which is large enough to drive the grid beyond 0v and draw grid current. Since our scenario is a mirror image, the rope is running into a boundary downward, while with our tubes the 0v grid boundary is "upwards" from our negative bias.

One possible reason bias voltage can deviate from its static value is driving the grid positive, such that it draws grid current, while having a signal source which cannot deliver this grid current (i.e., deliver voltage and current, or [/i]power[/i]). The grid current has to flow out from the grid through the grid reference resistor, and tends to develop a charge on the coupling cap. The charge wouldn't exist if the source of our signal could deliver power, and supply an equal current to offset the charging of the cap.

The charge on the cap tends to add to the bias, resulting in a more-negative d.c. voltage at the grid. Large enough, or prolonged overloads seems to develop a big enough bias to "shut off" the tube momentarily. That's called "blocking distortion".

Your friend was probably driving the output stage hard enough to cause distortion, which probably also means it was driven hard enough to drive the grid slightly positive. That resulted in the apparent shift of the bias voltage. Depending on whether he used a guitar or a signal generator, he may not have realized there's an upper limit of reasonable signal strength for a test (when using the generator). If he was using a guitar, he might not have enough control to avoid transients causes the shift. Or he just didn't know test conditions effect the test results.

There are other reasons that bias shift can happen; it often goes the other way, appearing to reduce the bias. That's called "rectification effect" and is described in the section on power amplifiers in RDH4. In a nutshell, tube distortion components are not all the same phase. Depending on the relative amounts and phase of each harmonic frequency, a resultant d.c. current happens which may be an increase or decrease from the idle value. Very often, it causes the apparent d.c. to rise with signal. This is more easily observed in a cathode-bias amp, where you can monitor voltage across the cathode resistor. Aiken says the difference in voltage across the AC30's cathode bias resistor, as indicated in the schematic, is proof the amp is not class A. The AC-30 may or may not be class A, but even a class A stage can have voltage variation across the cathode resistor due to screen current and/or rectification effect (or distortion).

Offline PRR

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 17082
  • Maine USA
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Bias voltage measurement
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2012, 08:11:51 pm »
> drops to -55'ish VDC when throwing a well struck power chord

Grids can go negative any amount, easily, but are very hard to drive positive. R-C coupled grids don't go positive much at all.

If you OVERload the amp, signal so big the peaks try to take the grids positive, it can't, so the average must shift negative.

For utter-clean, you don't want this.

In well-flavored electric guitar, it is normal.

If you over-do it, force from -40V to say -80V, the amp "blocks", cut-off so hard that even peaks don't get through. To some it is annoying; others can walk the edge of blocking for a very extreme tone.

HBP's visual example is excellent. Wiggle a rope until it taps the ceiling, it must shift downward.

Offline tubeswell

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 4202
  • He who dies with the most tubes... wins
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Bias voltage measurement
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2012, 08:15:23 pm »
The bias voltage is the bias voltage. You set it up for idle conditions to keep the tube from melting.  When a signal is going through the grid, the grid voltage swings up and down around the bias voltage point.
A bus stops at a bus station. A train stops at a train station. On my desk, I have a work station.

Offline ampgeek

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 422
  • Viva La Tube!!
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Bias voltage measurement
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2012, 08:38:26 am »
Got it.  Great stuff as always!  Thank you all very much!!

Although I don't have a lot of detail on the design in question, I do know that he was using a guitar as an input and was firing into a dead load (e.g., not a speaker).

Cheers,
Dave O.



 


 


Choose a link from the
Hoffman Amplifiers parts catalog
Mobile Device
Catalog Link
Yard Sale
Discontinued
Misc. Hardware
What's New Board Building
 Parts
Amp trim
Handles
Lamps
Diodes
Hoffman Turret
 Boards
Channel
Switching
Resistors Fender Eyelet
 Boards
Screws/Nuts
Washers
Jacks/Plugs
Connectors
Misc Eyelet
Boards
Tools
Capacitors Custom Boards
Tubes
Valves
Pots
Knobs
Fuses/Cords Chassis
Tube
Sockets
Switches Wire
Cable


Handy Links
Tube Amp Library
Tube Amp
Schematics library
Design a custom Eyelet or
Turret Board
DIY Layout Creator
File analyzer program
DIY Layout Creator
File library
Transformer Wiring
Diagrams
Hoffmanamps
Facebook page
Hoffman Amplifiers
Discount Program