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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Purchase of D130 or D130 F  (Read 10772 times)

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Offline markvalluzzi

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Purchase of D130 or D130 F
« on: July 04, 2012, 05:36:46 pm »
I am in the market for a JBL D130 or D130F.  It must be cosmeticly near pristine. Blown out or recone is acceptible.

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Purchase of D130 or D130 F
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2012, 10:29:54 pm »
Try ebay and some patience. I bought a near-mint late 50's - early 60's D130, with the original cone for ~$140 shipped.

Be patient because they come up often. Know the codes for the cone to verify it's original. Don't be in a rush to buy. You'll run into a deal eventually.

My best information is the D130F is more suitable for guitar amps, unless you want to build an exact Standel clone. I've read information from the guy who designed the D130F, which said it was an alteration that improved the ruggedness of the D130, specifically to go into guitar amp cabinets used outdoors.

Offline markvalluzzi

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Re: Purchase of D130 or D130 F
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2012, 08:15:43 am »
Hot Plate Blues,  Thanks,  I will.

Offline jeff

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Re: Purchase of D130 or D130 F
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2012, 01:46:07 pm »
I don't know if you'd be interested but I have a 15" JBL 130A I'd be willing to sell.

Offline markvalluzzi

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Re: Purchase of D130 or D130 F
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2012, 04:39:54 pm »
          Jeff,  what the differance between the two ?

Offline jeff

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Re: Purchase of D130 or D130 F
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2012, 01:11:29 pm »
I'm not sure. I did a quick search and I read that the 130D had a silver voice coil and the 130A had copper and one had a paper dust cover the other aliminum. Not sure if that's true. You can do some reasearch and find what the difference is and decide if the 130A is for you. I just thought I'd offer because I have one I'm not using. I can't tell if it's better/worse or what the difference is I'm just saying I have one I'll sell to you if you want it.

Offline Willabe

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Re: Purchase of D130 or D130 F
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2012, 02:11:02 pm »
The Fender JBL has an aluminum dust cap. Some like/love it and some don't/hate it because of the sound change from the aluminum dust cap as it's brighter?

I was just reading about this in "The Soul of Tone" book about Fender. There's a 2 page interview with Dick Dale talking about how and why Leo made the Shoman/Duel Showman amps with 15" D130F, JBL's.

In it Dale says he keep blowing up his amps and speakers. Leo finally went to go see him live and finally understood why Dale needed a bigger amp with speakers that could handle more power. Dale said it was his idea to use the aluminum dust cap. He said he thought he played the guitar like Gene Krupa played drums and wanted to hear the click of the pick. Dale loved it. But that's the thing guys don't like about those speakers.  It's in chapter 13, pages 236/237.


                          Brad      :dontknow:  

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Purchase of D130 or D130 F
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2012, 05:43:10 pm »
I'm not sure. I did a quick search and I read that the 130D had a silver voice coil and the 130A had copper and one had a paper dust cover the other aliminum. Not sure if that's true.

I think you fat-fingered, and meant to type "D130" instead of 130D.

The voice coils of the D130 and D-130F are aluminum, according to Harvey Gerst who worked at JBL and designed the D-130F. The D-130A, being a woofer and not intended for full-range music reproduction, had a copper voice coil.

The D-130A is also reported by Gerst as having a paper dome instead of aluminum (likely because the high frequency extension is not needed in a woofer).

Gerst says he slightly widened the voice coil gap in the D-130F, and the paper surrounds were treated with a substance they called "goop" to help provide more durability.

Dale said it was his idea to use the aluminum dust cap.

If you read all of Gerst's comments from that linked saved thread, it's a little funny when he says he never met/spoke with Dick Dale. He doesn't explain where the input for the need for altered D-130's came from, but does say that the speakers weren't for Fender only. He added "F" (which he said does stand for "Fender") because they were the biggest purchaser; however, he also says the same speakers were provided to other manufacturers as well.

What's really interesting is that although the D-130F has higher power ratings, the only changes were the voice coil gap and surround treatment. Everything else was the same. Gerst says it was simply about the reduced bandwidth of musical instrument reproduction compared to home music reproduction. The power rating was arrived at by cranking more and more power through them until they blew, then derating slightly.

He also states the D-130 could be similarly uprated for guitar applications (but maybe not organ/synth music with its more constant amplitudes).
« Last Edit: July 19, 2012, 06:06:17 pm by HotBluePlates »

Offline jeff

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Re: Purchase of D130 or D130 F
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2012, 02:40:30 am »
I think you fat-fingered, and meant to type "D130" instead of 130D.

Yeah. BTW the one I have is a 130A not a D130A.

 I just did a quick search and didn't get too deep, so like I said I not sure about what the difference between all the JBLs are. I don't know much about the one I have. My brother gave it to me years ago and I haven't used it much. I hooked it up once and it works but I didn't have a cab for a 15" and didn't use it, It's been in my closet since then.

 It is marked 16 ohm but it reads much lower than that(DC resistance), but I remember when I tested it reading somewhere that JBLs were known for that. If you're interested I'll measure it again and post the DC resistance. Also it's not marked with a wattage rating so I don't know about that either.

 

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Purchase of D130 or D130 F
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2012, 06:14:31 pm »
It is marked 16 ohm but it reads much lower than that(DC resistance), but I remember when I tested it reading somewhere that JBLs were known for that.

My D-130 is 16Ω impedance, but measures 6.2Ω d.c. resistance, including meter lead resistance.

Offline jeff

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Re: Purchase of D130 or D130 F
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2012, 02:19:08 am »
Does anyone know what the 130A is rated for(watts)?

Offline markvalluzzi

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Re: Purchase of D130 or D130 F
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2012, 10:13:09 am »
I find different info everywhere.. It seem the rating runs in the 40-60 watt range. These things can handle years of high power abuse. I used my 1967 JBL D120 F's for 30 years in my 100 watt Twin Reverb before finally cooking the voice coils. They sounded pretty cool as they reached the end of their days. As the voice coils started on a melt down, they developed a crunch the had a wonderful sound. Then they just stopped working. I wish I could get that sound every time, but I can't seem to dial it in with anykind of OD or distortion device...

Offline jeff

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Re: Purchase of D130 or D130 F
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2012, 02:37:04 pm »
I've heard it said an amp always sounds it's best right before it blows up.

Offline jeff

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Re: Purchase of D130 or D130 F
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2012, 02:41:40 pm »
Check out this site
http://www.audioheritage.org/html/profiles/jbl/d130.htm
http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/jbl.htm

Looks like the D130 is a full range speaker and the one I have, 130A, is for frequencies below 1500cps and is to be used with a crossover.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 02:55:23 pm by jeff »

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Purchase of D130 or D130 F
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2012, 08:37:21 pm »
Does anyone know what the 130A is rated for(watts)?

Click the link I posted above. It's info from the JBL designer of the D130F.

It correlates to the specs hosted on the site you linked, which is that the original rating for the D-130 and 130A was 25w. However, Harvey Gerst states he tested the speakers up to 35-60w, hitting them with increasing power until they blew up. Then he de-rated somewhat to arrive at the new power handling number.

So, 25w is unconditionally safe, but you can go up when using less than full-range signal input.

Looks like the D130 is a full range speaker and the one I have, 130A, is for frequencies below 1500cps and is to be used with a crossover.

Well already went through this... You don't need a crossover. The speaker naturally won't go as high, as well as the D-130 because the 130A has a copper voice coil, which is a heavier material (doesn't move as fast, so won't do highs as well as the aluminum voice coil). The D-130 uses an aluminum dome instead of the 130A paper dome, which also accentuates treble.

You can feed it as high a frequency as you want, it just won't reproduce it as well. Also true for any other guitar speaker. So JBL rated them when sold for home use such that they should be fed lows while you routed the highs to a horn or tweeter to handle full-range music reproduction.

But all guitar speakers are woofers except the D-130 and similar (like the occasionally used Altec speakers). You might even like it better as a guitar speaker, unless you like a LOT of clarity in your guitar sound.

Offline PRR

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Re: Purchase of D130 or D130 F
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2012, 11:22:28 pm »
The classic large JBLs come from two roots.

1) The 1930 Theater speakers were always used with _large_ multi-cell midrange horns, so only had to work up to 500Hz or even 300Hz, generally in bass-horns. These were just air-pumps. Because a 1,000 seat movie theater might have one or two 15-Watt amps, EFFICIENCY was vital. Cones were light, conical. No intention of treble but of course a paper cone is sure to radiate some mids. This is the Shearer System, several companies supplied these speakers, Lansing worked with one of them.

2) The ancestor of the D-130 was intended for smaller theaters or large studio. The "cone" is "curvilinear", a flared cone. This gives large area for bass but a stiff center for controlled treble. While all audio ideas are old, Lansing seems to have been the first to make good large curvilinear cones. The design goal was really just to get smooth response to around 1500KHz where it could crossover to a much smaller cheaper tweeter instead of the huge mid-horn and drivers. Again, efficiency was vital. The 130 is about the most efficient wideband "cone speaker" ever made.

All these vintage JBLs used coils from the one machine which milled round wire into tight flat wire at 4-inch diameter.

From those two you get variants. For bass-heavy work there is a copper-coil heavy-cone version which is half as efficient above 200Hz but has significantly more below 100Hz. The suspension can be loose for deep-bass when used in arrays with pre-controlled program; or stiff to resist abuse in stage amps. Dust-caps can be perforated, felt, paper, or aluminum. IMHO this is mostly about "looks", but they do give different highs. The aluminum center E-130 has good if ratty response all the way to 17KHz (only ON-axis). The soft perf center on the 2220 is falling at 800Hz and pretty dead above 2KHz. (But several beloved guitar-market speakers hardly reach 3KHz.) JBL changed magnet and clearance and I'm pretty sure the glue changed (perhaps before Gerst's time) to stand more heat. And there were 12" and 18" versions, again in several variants. But they all come from the mind of Lansing and all have very similar general tone, just a bit more or there to suit a specific market.

Any of the 120/130 will make more ear-smack per Watt than almost any other speaker. Some lesser speakers have more upper resonances and may "scream louder", but the big JBLs really make the most of the 150H-2KHz "body" register.

> marked 16 ohm but it reads much lower than that

Yes. The audio impedance is the DC resistance +plus+ actual work against the air (also some reactances). Most speakers are 1% efficient so the air-action is small. "16 ohms" will be 12 or 14 ohms DCR. The D-130 is 8% efficient at turning electric watts into watts in air, and that starts to show as a significant increase of impedance in the audio band.

> what the 130A is rated for(watts)?

I put many hours on E-130s with 180 watt tube amps, mostly PA mix. Loud but not abusive. Some pretty big crowds.

If you want LOTS of WATTS, go for the Electro-Voice EVM. Gerst talks of playing instruments to rate the power; E-V developed the standardized tests which are now (with mods) widely used to rate speakers. E-V 12L or 15L will take a steady 150 Watts anywhere in the guitar range, or 300 Watts highly clipped random noise, ALL day long. For all but the most brutal players, a 300 Watt amp flat-out is fine. They are nearly as efficient as the 130, IMHO a hair less musical and more clinical than the 130. Their cousins are now rated 600 Watts PA duty. Again if you want bass with serious bottom thud, you want the copper-coil tame-cone 15B.

For "tone", I like a smaller amp with a four-Ten  or two-Twelve array. Four "lesser" Tens close together approach the efficiency (yes, and price) of a single super-speaker but with more aural complexity. The 2X12 is a great cab also.

 


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