Author Topic: Talk to me about OVERDRIVE (Read 10045 times)

SILVERGUN · « **on:** July 18, 2012, 10:15:57 am »

So, over the years of listening, all of my favorite lead sounds have come from overdriven tube amps.
I really love when you hold a note and it turns into a screaming, singing, harmonically rich, liquid, expression...(i guess i'm not alone)
My roots are in classic rock, but I just exist for a great lead guitar sound...whether it's Jimmy Page, David Gimour, Neil Schon, Steve Vai or Steve Morse,,,Joe Bonamassa or Jimi Hendrix
I've tried to acheive this through a mix of Mesa Boogie Triaxis, Simul 395, with delay, reverb and whatever else was at my disposal (that stuff worked OK)..I understand the effects loop/muti rig setup ..I've sold all of that stuff now and I'm looking for a simpler approach
I've heard Fender's with pedals in front of them that sound awesome, and modded Marshalls that are equally impressive...Bogner just seems to have it, but I cant afford one. I've cloned the Ecstasy overdrive preamp circuit and it really feels like I'm on to something. I'm just curious if I'm missing something obvious because I'm a late bloomer.... I have also plugged into Line 6 amps that I wouldn't let my dog play through.
Over the next year I plan on building at least 3 new amps. I'm looking for some direction from guys who have had some success building amps or combining pedals and amps that get that liquid overdrive type of sound. Even if you can just point me towards some archived forum posts, or your favorite schematics on this site.
One of the coolest amps I ever played through was a Fender Tonemaster from like 1997...you could just feel the amp's response to touch
What makes one amp sound better with a certain overdrive pedal in front?
What makes that touch sensitive input?.... I have no ties to tradition or certain brand loyalty, and I know that a great player can make any amp sound good...I'm just not a GREAT player, but I know what I want to hear......sound familiar?

If you've got time, please just throw some responses out there...THANKS!

phsyconoodler · « **Reply #1 on:** July 18, 2012, 11:57:49 am »

Quote"I'm just not a GREAT player"

That is the real issue here.Not intended to be demeaning in any way,but the master's you listed worked with what they had and MADE the sounds you like to hear.
The biggest problem with today's players is they expect to get it from the gear and at low volumes to boot.
The first amp you should build is a Champ,then a Tweed Deluxe.Those two amps will cover a lot of ground with tone and touch sensitivity.
An 18 watt marshall will bridge the gap for the British tone,but you need to have Fender tweeds to understand recorded tones from Page and Neil Young and many more.
You can't get Dumble tones from any of those amps,so Mayer,morse and others won't be totallt attainable.
Those guys craft their tone through years of playing and recording and don't necessarilly run off to buy the 'flavour of the week' amp. Hendrix got tone from his fingers and cranking amps.Try cranking a 100 watt marshall at your next live jam session.You'll politely get told to turn down or leave.
Attitudes have changed quite a bit towards rock music these days.I have to resort to lower wattage amps to be able to even approach the tone I like these days.The big one's are simply not well-recieved anymore.
There are no solid state or modelling amps that make me want to play them for more than a few minutes without grimacing in pain from bad tone.
Give me a Tweed Deluxe or an 18/36 watt marshall or a nice blackface fender style amp and I'm done searching for my tones.Those amps pretty much cover it all.
I do like dumble-style tones but I'm not the player to get the most out of those either.I build them for people who can.
Marshall + treble booster = heaven. Tweed + guitar = heaven. Blackface + tube screamer or OD pedal = heaven.IMHO.

John · « **Reply #2 on:** July 18, 2012, 12:36:14 pm »

In my VERY limited experience, I'd say phsyco is right on. If you build a SE 5 watt amp using a single power tube - 6V6 probably - and either cascade 1 triode or run a small signal pentode (5879 is cheap, plentiful) along with say, either a single triode ("half" the tube) or else parallelled (to keep the gain/distortion from getting out of hand), you'll be amazed... at least I was. It gets loud enough for jam sessions, but you can get that smoooth overdriven sound at very moderate volume. Just my 2 cents.

Ed_Chambley · « **Reply #3 on:** July 18, 2012, 01:11:56 pm »

I have heard it said a great player can make anything sound good. Not true! If you hold an e chord and strum it and it doesn't sound good through what you are using, it will sound the same if Clapton does it. Great tones come from understanding the environment you are playing. Studying sound reproduction and experiment. I have tons of gear from original Blackface Super Reverbs to Marshall JTM-45, Fender Bassman to name a few.

If you take a Blackface Fender twin to a 2500 sq foot club, you simply will not be able to get the amp playing in its wheel house. Every amp I have has a volume where the amp starts giving back. There are many approaches, but give me an underpowered amp and if I need the "headroom" I simply use a RC booster and add an extension cabinet. The Boss DS-1 distortion pedal is the worst, but adding the seeing eye mod makes it different all together. Lots of high gain players use this.

Head over to the sound clips and listen to the TOS. Tubenit came up with this thing and it sounds like what you are looking for. I have not built one as I am not a liquid, sustaining player. I am a Chicken Pickin kind of player. Tele, compression, delay and a phaser if I have to cover Waylon.

I can play EVH style, Zepplin not to mention many others others. In my area you either play Blues or Country. That's what I do. The days of large clubs and my old cranked marshall plexi are gone.

The suggestion to build a Champ and a Tweed Deluxe to get you feet wet was a good one. I have never built either, but that's just me.

I just finished building a Princeton Reverb AA1164 using PT and OT designed for a Blackface Deluxe. Tube and Solid state Rectified so it will snap and also sag. Made 2 extension cabinets with 1 12 in each, the amp cab has Weber recones 10 from some old CTS speakers from my hot rodded Super Reverb. I can turn it up, wide open and play a 2000 foot place.

It can get involved.

Willabe · « **Reply #4 on:** July 18, 2012, 01:14:55 pm »

I'd take Phsyconoodlers words to heart.

He's already built more amps than I'll probably ever play through.

Not to even mention all the different amps he's fixed/modded.

He's got a lot to draw from and has a good set of ears on him at this point no doubt. I'd also bet he's pretty darn good player too.

I've only built a few and repaired a few, but the first amp I did build was a 5E3. I still have it and still love it.

Brad

SILVERGUN · « **Reply #5 on:** July 18, 2012, 01:46:48 pm »

THANKS GUYS!!!
This is what I'm lookin for...
An open conversation about success and/or failure with high gain type circuits...or...overdrive pedals in front of certain amps
I'm looking to steal ALL of your secrets, of course

I started with a Dreamtone JCM800 clone....=happy customer
I am currently finishing up a Sovtek Mig 50 head that was given to me to repair (friend butchered the pc board)....so I pulled the board and replaced it with a PTP Bogner Ecstasy overdrive channel circuit that I found on this site...stuck it in there, added a master volume and left the power section in tact and it sounds great.....closer to what I'm trying to accomplish....more gain than you need, but killer sustain and harmonics.
If I was going to do another one today it would be that amp again, because it's as close as I've gotten to what i'm looking for.

No offense taken from phsyconoodlers comments, and I truly appreciate all of you taking time to respond.....I understand the Champ and the Tweed....I'm just looking for something more.....Give me your best stuff here....I wasted my 30's doing TOP 40 and I'm looking for some help from you guys that were paying attention all those years....I don't want to spend the next year building amps i dont love....it's down to golf and amp building for me, and just because I'm not a GREAT golfer, it doesn't stop me from building my own clubs.

I like the equations from phsyconoodler, and think that would make for a fun post:
Marshall + treble booster = heaven. Tweed + guitar = heaven. Blackface + tube screamer or OD pedal = heaven
Mine would be Bogner preamp+ Sovtek power amp = very cool/hot lead tone

Let's just get a little deeper....circuits to build into amps,,,or dumb it down,,, Big Muff+ Bad Cat= one hot night....you with me?

Thanks Guys,
Dave

Ed_Chambley · « **Reply #6 on:** July 18, 2012, 02:53:37 pm »

I ripped off a Fargen ole 800, great amp but louuuuuuud.

Sounds like you have some experience building. I'm telling you if that sustain for days sound is in your heart that TOS is one of the best I have heard. It is not processed sounding, it sounds like a great amp that is just getting ready to destroy something inside of it.

http://www.soundclick.com/player/single_player.cfm?songid=11332809&q=hi&newref=1

Here is one link, but there are many.

Willabe · « **Reply #7 on:** July 18, 2012, 03:00:23 pm »

I posted just after Ed and did not see what he posted in reply #3. I _did not_ mean it to look like what Ed had to say is not good advice also on amps tone.

Ed has played a long time and on many amps too.

Brad

SILVERGUN · « **Reply #8 on:** July 18, 2012, 03:28:56 pm »

Thanks ED and Willabe,
Now that's what I'm talkin about....If this thread doesn't catch on I'll continue it with a different title...
We need to figure it out....for the good of all high gain modders everywhere
I think we're all looking for a piece of that magic, and I'm just asking for a couple of wizards to share the wealth

I'm telling you, Bogner is as close as I've gotten, I just need something I can build myself, and I just don't want to have to sort through hundreds of schematics and read through hundreds of posts......I do understand that most wizards will not want to share

I'm gonna check out that Fargen and see if I can keep the magic, but tame the volume....I'm headed over to the TOS page now (anything that sounds like it may start smoking at any givin time is right up my alley)

I'll let you guys know how it goes

Keep it coming

tubenit · « **Reply #9 on:** July 18, 2012, 04:24:56 pm »

I think the Tweed Overdrive Special is worth considering.

Next would be Geezer's HoSo56 with psuedo dual channel switching. Geezer is getting Dumblish sort of tone from his design now. He has a super versatile design. He also has sort of a OD'd version of the HoSo56 that he was working on at one point that you can ask him about.

Next would be Tweed BluezMeister just do a search and look in the ExpressSCH files.

TOS info:

http://www.el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=9636.0

Original TOS design soundclip: http://www.soundclick.com/player/single_player.cfm?songid=9488477&q=hi&newref=1

Revised TOS with cathode follower: http://www.soundclick.com/player/single_player.cfm?songid=11527276&q=hi&newref=1

With respect, Tubenit

SILVERGUN · « **Reply #10 on:** July 18, 2012, 05:22:58 pm »

Thanks Tubenit, I just joined yesterday and I haven't said thank you to this many people that I don't know in my whole life....what was I waiting for?
I was just checking out the TOS clips, and loved it, and I also just replied on Geezer's post about the HoSo56...I'm very late, but just threw my 2 cents in there......I can't get off of this website, and I think my wife is starting to worry.
I'm like a teenager who just discovered Playboy.

I think we are on the right track here...the TOS sounds like a nice little project

Can I see a schematic?.....I'm not great at finding my way around here yet....thanks for the links

tubenit · « **Reply #11 on:** July 18, 2012, 05:56:53 pm »

Quote

Can I see a schematic?....

Sure, if you will click on the link I posted in the previous post, you will find the schematic and layout there in that link.

If you want to open the editable SCH version, then use the FREE ExpressSCH download from here:
http://www.expresspcb.com/expresspcbhtm/Free_schematic_software.htm

With respect, Tubenit

phsyconoodler · « **Reply #12 on:** July 18, 2012, 06:10:09 pm »

Quote:"If you hold an e chord and strum it and it doesn't sound good through what you are using, it will sound the same if Clapton does it"

Well I'm sure glad Clapton didn't just strum E chords!
Seriously,there are players that can squeeze tone out of almost any amp,within reason.Of course when you have a killer amp the tone is just that much better for both good and mediocre players.

HotBluePlates · « **Reply #13 on:** July 18, 2012, 06:14:13 pm »

By the way, in the past when Tubenit recorded me playing through one of his amps, the recording had less "obvious" distortion to it than it did in the room. When I played double-stops, you could tell there was a lot of distortion happening. On single-notes, it's almost like there is so much distortion that it begins to sound smooth again. Which may be another way to say "tons of distortion, without harshness" (unless you set the tone controls to be harsh on purpose).

I mention it because while the sound clips are good, I think you'll be even more impressed when you hear the amp in person.

Willabe · « **Reply #14 on:** July 18, 2012, 06:40:36 pm »

Quote from: SILVERGUN on July 18, 2012, 05:22:58 pm

I can't get off of this website, and I think my wife is starting to worry.
I'm like a teenager who just discovered Playboy.

I know, I know, great place for a hungry mind! With great guys with much wisdom and ideas to be gleaned from.

_ BUT _ Doug's forum has been here for a while and will be here for a while longer, pull yourself together man .

Just my $0.02 now, slow down a little, maybe take your wife out to dinner? Or maybe make her dinner or do something with her that she likes?

Guitars and amps come and go, always have and always will, but, a loving wife/partner for life should not. You made it this far without your dream setup you can make it a little longer?

Brad

SILVERGUN · « **Reply #15 on:** July 18, 2012, 06:58:43 pm »

Wow, you guys are on the ball...
I'm just gonna start pulling parts together for this build....it sounds perfect for what i'm looking for.....I dont NEED a ton of overdrive, but really love the idea of the blooming effect....I've always been a big fan of the Robben Ford D mble tone, and wanted to do a build involving the PPIMV
The D mble schematics I have looked at have all looked pretty complicated and i have shy'd away...I think I'm ready for this, especially since you guys have done all of the hard work........it always takes me waaaaay too long to quadruple check everything and create a parts list and question the layout.
So, considering all of your comments, and Geezer's review....I'M SOLD on the TOS
Thanks for sharing all of this free info, and all of your hard work....I'll try to make you proud
I love that I can just build it and not think too much...my wife thanks you for that too
Have you guys hashed out the perfect speaker config for this amp?.....I've got an empty 2x12 cab I'd love to use for this

I still want to hear more replies to this post,,,, this wont be the last amp I build....or will it????

SILVERGUN · « **Reply #16 on:** July 18, 2012, 07:21:20 pm »

Thanks Willabe,
Wise words indeed...I just celebrated my 5th anniversary and am very lucky for what I have....she knows that and I'm good at home
My problem is that now that I'm not rehearsing and gigging all the time I'm getting a little bored..........I've also proven that if i let it sit, something else comes up and I don't get anywhere...next thing you know I'll be re-siding my house, and then a bathroom remodel......IT'S GO TIME
I'm recuperating from hernia surgery, so I've got some low impact down time to kill off right now,
So don't stop me now,,,I'm on a roll

I haven't been this excited or learned this much in a while, and I'm gonna keep pushing right now because i can.......this is something I've been waiting to do for the last 20 years....my workbench is clean, my ears are good, and now I've got you guys backing me up...I can't lose

SILVERGUN · « **Reply #17 on:** July 18, 2012, 08:05:55 pm »

Tubenit, what's the story with the SS rectifier plug on the TOS....i'm assuming it's just there to leave the option open?
How do you prefer yours?.....I prefer to use overrated components, and i have a large stock of overkill ss rectifiers...(I do welding machine repair during the day, and I like the idea of a bulletproof rectifier)
I also would prefer an overrated PT, and if I commit to SS it opens up my options (wont need 5v sec.).......watching shorted main transformers in welding macines burn/melt/catch fire has made me appreciate a high quality, overrated xfmr

What are your thoughts?

Willabe · « **Reply #18 on:** July 18, 2012, 08:20:42 pm »

Quote from: SILVERGUN on July 18, 2012, 07:21:20 pm

Wise words indeed...I just celebrated my 5th anniversary and am very lucky for what I have....she knows that and I'm good at home

I was just worried you had the dreaded "Tube Amp Fever"!

Carry on then, never mind me, sounds like your good with, as they say, your better half and it sounds like a good way to feed your body by feeding your mind.

I hope you fully recover soon! Roll on then!

Brad

tubenit · « **Reply #19 on:** July 18, 2012, 08:31:41 pm »

Quote

Tubenit, what's the story with the SS rectifier plug on the TOS....i'm assuming it's just there to leave the option open?
How do you prefer yours?.....I prefer to use overrated components, and i have a large stock of overkill ss rectifiers...(I do welding machine repair during the day, and I like the idea of a bulletproof rectifier)
I also would prefer an overrated PT, and if I commit to SS it opens up my options (wont need 5v sec.).......watching shorted main transformers in welding macines burn/melt/catch fire has made me appreciate a high quality, overrated xfmr

That approach is reasonable.

I prefer using a tube rectifier. With a 275-0-275 PT, I can use a 5Y3GT and run 6K6GT tubes. That makes a nice 8 watt practice amp. I recorded one of those posted soundclips with 6K6GT tubes in my TOS. With a 5V4 or GZ34, I can run 6V6 or 5881's. And I have one of Hoffman's plug in SS rectifier plugs, if I want that. So, that gives me 4 different voltages options available. I do NOT have to rebias anything to change between power tubes. Just plug and play. So that is my thinking.

There are lots of different ways to approach this TOS build. And the amp is really a tweaker's amp. Wire it up as shown and then figure out how to change it closer to that tone that you hear in your head. We can help with that. There have been a number of us that have built the TOS and report very positive reviews of the tone.

With respect, Tubenit

SILVERGUN · « **Reply #20 on:** July 18, 2012, 09:25:17 pm »

I wish I could say more than THANK YOU!!
Very cool built in options... a convertible power section...who knew?...If I wasn't sold before that, now you've really got my full attention.
I never even had a thought like that, other than considering putting your preamp design into a lower output power section
Why bother, when I can take advantage of your genius design?.....exactly what most people would want.......It's great to see that you guys have truly done your homework..........now i really can't wait to get started
This build will make me very happy

I feel guilty that I can just waltz in here and use your hard work for my benefit.
That's why I wish i could say more than THANK YOU!!

SILVERGUN · « **Reply #21 on:** July 18, 2012, 09:30:27 pm »

Yeah Willabe, I've got that "TUBE FEVER
And tubenit just poured gasoline on me and threw a match

Look out TOS....HERE I COME

Willabe · « **Reply #22 on:** July 18, 2012, 10:37:01 pm »

Quote from: SILVERGUN on July 18, 2012, 09:30:27 pm

Yeah Willabe, I've got that "TUBE FEVER
And tubenit just poured gasoline on me and threw a match

Tubenit, hey now, cut it out, didn't you read his earlier post???? The poor man is recovering from hernia surgery???

Stop throwing gasoline on the mans fire!

Hey Jim, should we write Santa and tell him to take away Nit's matches and give him a STRAT instead for Christmas???

Brad

(No really, sorry, Tubenit knows what he's talking about and then some for getting great tube amp tone.)

stingray_65 · « **Reply #23 on:** July 19, 2012, 12:30:51 am »

Quote from: tubenit on July 18, 2012, 08:31:41 pm

There are lots of different ways to approach this TOS build. And the amp is really a tweaker's amp. Wire it up as shown and then figure out how to change it closer to that tone that you hear in your head. We can help with that. There have been a number of us that have built the TOS and report very positive reviews of the tone.

SG,
You'll figure it out soon enough, but Tubenitt has more modesty than about his designs than I ever could.
I've built 2 TOS's now, The original and the CF version. These are by far the most versatile amps I have ever heard.

When I say versatile, I mean it!not only do these amps have so many different voices, with a twist of a knob, and I mean a knob on the amp OR your guitar, They sound so much different when OTHER players play them.

Now for my disclaimer LOL I don't play guitar... or any other musical instrument. My skills lay more in the construction of things. However, I do feel and hear the music like musicians do. making amps is my way of making music.

Ray

TIMBO · « **Reply #24 on:** July 19, 2012, 12:44:06 am »

Welcome aboard SILVERGUN,I think you are pretty much sold on the TOS. I too have built the TOS and TOS CF and i do much prefer the CF as it has a full range of CLEAN to MEAN so all genre covered.I think the PPIMV is a must (happy wife happy life) and reverb also.I don't think you can go too wrong by starting with the basic schem and then tweak it too taste. Good luck

tubenit · « **Reply #25 on:** July 19, 2012, 05:42:32 am »

Guys, please remember that Geezer and I worked together on the original TOS.

If you want to build the TOS with CF, there is both a paralleled terminal layout and a Hoffman style layout for it here:

http://www.el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=11455.0

Hoffman makes layout boards for the TOS amp.

With respect, Tubenit

Tyrannocaster · « **Reply #26 on:** July 19, 2012, 07:28:41 am »

Interesting thread.

Silvergun, let me throw this out there just to muddy the waters.

We all want the best sounding amps we can get, and the TOS soundclips soun great, but for a new builder I think it looks pretty difficult. I've built about nine or ten amps and I know that the thing looks like if I built it it would probably have issues. I will wait until I have a better handle on high gain amps to build a TOS. But in the meantime I'm quite delighted with a couple of amps I did manage to construct.

Fact is, most of your tone is in your hands, but you still want the most advantage your amp can give you. (I'm not sure I agree with the Eric Clapton E chord comment at all but that's a different story.) Let's just say this: a Marshall Lite with an extra gain stage (Hoffman calls this a "Stout" and he has schematic and layout on this board) is much, much easier to build and it can sound friggin' great, at least in my opinion. Now, I find it interesting that mine doesn't sound much like Doug's at all. Mine was a totally stock Lite II and I just added the gain stage to it - in theory, it should be the same amp as his but I don't like the way his sounds in the clips he put up. Listen for yourself and see what you think. Here is mine:

https://www.box.com/s/fae02ff11862bce0a99e

https://www.box.com/s/e1f4d6b7b9171c229a4c

I also made what is essentially a Tweed Bassman with cathode biased EL84s in the power amp (or you could think of it as an 18 Watter with a Bassman preamp) and it sounds wonderful, too. (Again, just my opinion.) Both of these amps would be easier for you to build than the TOS. Just my opinion, but I add it because I know from personal experience how frustrating it is to try to pull off something that you aren't quite ready for yet. On the other hand, you may do just fine, and the TOS is certainly worth the attempt. "Walk Don't Run" actually has a meaning at first, LOL. In any case, you'll learn a lot.

SILVERGUN · « **Reply #27 on:** July 19, 2012, 08:53:00 am »

Thanks for the input Tyrannocaster....I agree with what you're saying, especially because I know that I tend to get in over my head and then "learn my way out"......that's why it's taken me 43 years to get to this point.
You should also know that I originally came here looking to build the 18 watt stout.....I stole some schematics, thanked Doug for his work here, and he invited me to join the forum...My original post to start this thread was an attempt to find a certain type of lead sound without having to look too far for it.
I mentioned that I plan on building maybe 3 amps in the coming year, and was looking for help from guys who had alreay done their homework and wouldn't mind sharing the results. So, what I'm looking for is that sustain into harmonic feedback thing, with a heavy dose of that liquid feeling, smooth excess overdrive......it sounds to me like the TOS CF is heading in the right direction...........the thing that put me over the top with this build is the "convertible" power supply, and output tube options.......I think this will be worth the struggle
These nice gentlemen pointed me in this direction, and thats what I was looking for.....I'm hoping that with all of the available info. for this build that exists here,,,,,that I couldn't possible screw it up (I can't believe I just said that)
I just hope that Tubenit and Geezer don't get sick of me...we'll see

BUT, this is what I was looking for... different opinions from guys with way more experience than me.......I cant thank you guys enough for the attention and welcome that I have received here......I think I have typed "thank you" at least 20 times in the last 2 days.....I truly appreciate that you guys are openly sharing all of this hard work with a guy who just walked in late to the party

SILVERGUN · « **Reply #28 on:** July 19, 2012, 09:09:46 am »

Love the clips, by the way Tyrannocaster, especially Martin Test....sweet sound

Tyrannocaster · « **Reply #29 on:** July 19, 2012, 09:44:05 am »

I agree that the TOS would probably be a great choice to make. I just think your TOS would be better if it were your third amp than if it were your first; however, how can anybody be expected to be patient at this stuff?

I know I'm not!

SILVERGUN · « **Reply #30 on:** July 19, 2012, 11:43:44 am »

Thats pretty funny, and a coincidence....this IS exactly my 3rd amp
I've been doing repairs on and off for years, but I started building with a JCM800 clone for a friend who wouldn't leave me alone (he loves it)...( I had the luxury of having a real JCM 800 right there with me for support/comparison),,,and then most recently I had a friend bring me a S*vtek Mig 50 with a board that he had butchered, and some of the worst mod attempts I have ever seen ( I should've taken pics).
He described what he was trying to accomplish, and I wound up pulling the board out and replacing it with a PTP B*gner Ecstacy overdrive preamp board, but left the power section in tact.....He gave me plenty of time with this one and I have learned a lot....I also feel like i'm on to something with this one because it sounds 20X better than I expected (pure luck).....If you know anyone looking for a high gain preamp, all I can say is WOW!

I currently have a Mesa Rectoverb on the bench with a burnt board trace, and once that's gone I'm ready for the TOS project. No more working on other people's crap

(sorry other people). After the TOS, I'll probaly go back and do the B*gner in a 2 channel 18 watt, with Matchl*ss clean.....WISH ME LUCK
I cant wait!

jojokeo · « **Reply #31 on:** July 19, 2012, 12:46:13 pm »

I'm reading this thread with much enjoyment and amusement. BTW, welcome welcome silvergun. It is refreshing to see your enthusium and personality coming through loud and clear, lol. As it's been alluded to already, you're in good hands with everyone here.
It is interesting that in certain parts of this thread it seems that you're looking for power tube overdriven tones and then in other responses you're liking/looking for preamp distortion/overdrive tones, and then maybe you're also liking sag and speaker break-up along with these. Maybe a mix of everything?
I can't say enough that there's soooo many combinations of so many things like this that all adds up to maybe what you're looking for? Olny you'll know when you feel, hear, and find it. Add in the affects of and difference btwn a triode vs pentode, the signal to noise ratio of a paralleled 12ax7, a 12ax7 vs 12ay7, the way the tube's are biased from one section to the next, fully bypassed or not, what kind of pi is used, coupling caps, smoothing tweaks, self or fixed biased, tone stack with inherent mid scoop or tweeds' full signal heavy mid flavour, etc... and there's literally a "pot pourri" of things to consider which all yields tradeoffs. Gain, freq response, touch sensitivy, sustain, blooming, bass response, clarity, harmonic content, etc. - and this is ultimately only the final product of the total package for just the amp and it's response. The rectifier, transformers, voltages everything's ran at, and the like are all also important.
I would only suggest to you, after throwing some things our there, that you can't get everything in one single amp, as already said there's trade-offs. You are smart in wanting to build three amps, so target what you want to play with the tone, sound, and characteristics you are after so that you can maximize the final product and desired outcome for each. I think this will give you the rewards and happiness you seek in the end?
Hope this helps, Keo

Ed_Chambley · « **Reply #32 on:** July 19, 2012, 01:28:31 pm »

Quote from: Willabe on July 18, 2012, 03:00:23 pm

I posted just after Ed and did not see what he posted in reply #3. I _did not_ mean it to look like what Ed had to say is not good advice also on amps tone.

Ed has played a long time and on many amps too.

Brad

Did not see anything out of the way with your comment. Psyco is far better than me. Anyone who builds a 18 watter and Princeton in the same cabinet wins the award. Talk about versatility in the low volume arena and only had one handle.

Willabe · « **Reply #33 on:** July 19, 2012, 01:34:46 pm »

I posted just after you and didn't see what you had posted. Then I looked back and I thought it looked like I snubbed you.

Just wanted to clear it up.

Glade were still on the same page Ed.

Brad

SILVERGUN · « **Reply #34 on:** July 19, 2012, 02:16:15 pm »

Thanks a lot Keo, it's all of those options that I have found to be overwhelming in attempting to settle down on one build.
That's why I'm counting on these guys to do most of that narrowing down for me. I feel kinda like a kid whose cheating on the final exam....
I'm not much of a tweaker, so that's obviously the next chapter for me.....I like to build things that work without too much stress.
I've always spent waaay too much time triple checking my quadruple checked work......I can't wait to just order the parts on the list, follow the layout and schematic, and GET IT BUILT,,,and then tweak from there
Once I get this TOS wired up, maybe we can figure out where to go from there....I don't have too much time (or money) to spend on this stuff,,,but right now---I'M ALL IN
If I'm lucky, I've got 40 or 50 more good years left in me....plenty of time to find the answer

I'll post some clips when it's ready

jojokeo · « **Reply #35 on:** July 19, 2012, 02:46:13 pm »

Quote from: SILVERGUN on July 19, 2012, 02:16:15 pm

I've always spent waaay too much time triple checking my quadruple checked work......I can't wait to just order the parts on the list, follow the layout and schematic, and GET IT BUILT,,,and then tweak from there

LOL sounds like many of us. We sometimes get paralysis due to over analysis syndrome when it would just be better to "just build that damn thing and get it overwith already".

My projects always take longer to design than to build. A stich in time...as they say. But it's important you don't go drilling the wrong holes the wrong size in the wrong places and that you get everything tp fit in there too.

I live in a beach town and it's the ol' power boater vs sail boater's mentality. It's either about the destination or the journey. For many of us, it's all about the journey. We get there, enjoy it for a bit and then it's time to begin on another one.

SILVERGUN · « **Reply #36 on:** July 19, 2012, 03:28:33 pm »

Yeah, I am very thankful for the work that tubenit and geezer have done to allow me to coast through this one...
This is gonna be about getting to that sound, and learning how to tweak to get closer to the answer
see: Tangerine (guitar solo) Led Zep...1970......I think thats where the sound in my head started, and I'd love to take it to the next,next level
Starts at about 1:40 Tangerine - Led Zeppelin {with lyrics}
Brings back memories,,,,don't it?.....30 some notes said more to me than any thing else I had heard up to that point,,,,,
And on the same album as Since I've Been Loving You.......talk about inspiration
I was born in 1969, and must of heard that when I was 1, and it's never left me.

I'd love to settle on a design, build a bunch, and give them to all of my buddies (some with lifelong bad tone) as Christmas presents........now there's a dream

Now back to the shopping cart

Ed_Chambley · « **Reply #37 on:** July 19, 2012, 04:52:53 pm »

Good luck my friend. I have listened to the TOS files and considered building one myself. Willabe said it best "TUBE FEVER". Don't let the downers, and they will come, stop you. Building is frustrating, hair pulling, wonderful time spent sniffing flux.
You asked about speakers and there is a place on the forum for cabinet and speaker discussion. Check it out. I do not own a ceramic speaker, but if I were building a high gainer I would probably use what I did clubbin in the 80's. Vintage 30's. Back then we played places where I could actually crank up 2, 100 watt Marshalls and do VH and Scorpions, stuff like that. The clubs in Atlanta were big rock arenas.

My favorite cab is a JD Design, 2 12 with a Weber Blue Dog and Silver Bell Alnico. They are expensive as many Alnicos are.

BTW, I think the best tone in Rock is Neal Schon. Everyone has their favorite.

The best advice I was given about building high gain amps was determine the size chassis you think you need, then get a bigger one. I built a 18watt sort of and put cathode bias power section from a Matchless Chiefton. What a nightmare. I wanted to do it in a mini head with a 2 x 8 x 14. Would not work as I could not get the thing from squealing. Took it apart and put it into a 3 x 10 x 17 and it's all good now.

The bad part is I knew better and did it anyway. But that about par with my building.

jojokeo · « **Reply #38 on:** July 19, 2012, 10:12:40 pm »

Quote from: SILVERGUN on July 19, 2012, 03:28:33 pm

This is gonna be about getting to that sound, and learning how to tweak to get closer to the answer
see: Tangerine (guitar solo) Led Zep...1970......I think thats where the sound in my head started, and I'd love to take it to the next,next level
Starts at about 1:40

That sound my friend is not coming strictly from the amp all by itself. There was big time help through the use of high gain effects going on there.

SILVERGUN · « **Reply #39 on:** July 20, 2012, 09:09:32 am »

Oh yeah Keo , I totally hear that....I was just throwing that out there as an example of where I was coming from.
I'm sure that there are guys on here from every musical genre, so I wanted to give a point of reference.
That's the tough part about our e-communication,,,you're never really sure if you're on the same plane with everyone, so that was meant to be an inspirational piece,,,to light a fire,,,,to bring back memories,,,,and let you know where that sound in my head started.

It kinda sounds like it was double tracked, with one of the guitars being a lap steel, through a tape delay feeding back.......it probably wasn't a lap steel, but it gives me that feel,,,,kinda like the slide work in Pink Floyd's "One of These Days".....larger than life,,,drippin' wet

Another sound that stands out to me from my youth is The Guess Who's "No Time" (lead guitar).....I wanna bring that tone into 2012
There are plenty of others, but I want this build to focus on sustain into harmonic feedback.....you know I'll be putting a little delay in the effects loop of this TOS

(that will be my next thread...what's the best delay unit???)

Thanks for staying with me here Keo, it's great to be surrounded by like minds......it sure beats talking about Happy Days with my sister in law

SILVERGUN · « **Reply #40 on:** July 20, 2012, 09:41:43 am »

Thanks Ed, I'm looking into those Weber speakers, and really appreciate your advice ( I also started another thread in the Speaker forum)......
I always used the Vintage 30's too
I couldn't agree more about Neil Schon...I saw him live in '86 from the second row, and was never the same after that....wen't right out and got a black Les Paul copy.......it was all Page, Gilmour, Hendrix, VH up to that point......I'll never forget that show....Neil personally ripped my face off

I've got a 17x8x2 chassis set aside for the TOS build.......gonna put it in a 20" wide head on top of a 20" wide vertical 2x12....wish me luck squeezing it all in there

If I ever go back out on stage, I'm thinking about A/B ing between 2 heads on top of 2 cabs like this.....but I am getting a little grey
Maybe I'll just hookup my son with this rig.......ahhhh dreams....................................he'll probably break my heart and tell me he bought a Li^e 6

jojokeo · « **Reply #41 on:** July 20, 2012, 01:48:09 pm »

Speaking of Journey/Schon - I remember when their first "album" came out and driving all the way from my buddy's house in Cherry Hills, Colorado to my place in Orange Cty, CA and the whole damn way we played that cassette tape over and over again pretty much wearing the thing out. Good times.

Going to see a tribute band here locally called "Which One's Pink" in a couple weeks, and these guys are by far the best I've seen or heard. Note for note, English accents, speaker panning, and even black soul girls singing their parts in the background where needed. Close your eyes and you think you're hearing Gilmour and company.

Guess Who is one of my fav older bands too. I still listen to the stuff often. But alas, my boys just love to cover the Stones. Heck with a couple of them, they'd be perfectly content to ONLY play Stones all night long. The audience digs it, but I like it when we play other stuff like Foo Fighters, U2, Counting Crowes, Black Crowes, Weezer, etc. and then they really get into it. The more frenzy'd it gets it's like a line of cocaine of something. It never gets old when things get cookin' and the ladies are a puckerin' and a snappin'...

Welcome To the Hoffman Amplifiers Forum September 07, 2025, 03:39:08 pm

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register. -User Name -Password
Home Help Search Login Register
Hoffman Amplifiers Tube Amplifier Forum » Amp Stuff » Tube Amp Building - Tweaks - Repairs » Talk to me about OVERDRIVE

Choose a link from the Hoffman Amplifiers parts catalog
Mobile Device Catalog Link	Yard Sale Discontinued	Misc. Hardware
What's New	Board Building Parts	Amp trim Handles
Lamps Diodes	Hoffman Turret Boards	Channel Switching
Resistors	Fender Eyelet Boards	Screws/Nuts Washers
Jacks/Plugs Connectors	Misc Eyelet Boards	Tools
Capacitors	Custom Boards	Tubes Valves
Pots Knobs	Fuses/Cords	Chassis
Tube Sockets	Switches	Wire Cable

Welcome To the Hoffman Amplifiers Forum

Author Topic: Talk to me about OVERDRIVE (Read 10045 times)