Is a guitar supposed to buzz?

[jeff]

I just got a setup/fret dress on my guitars. When I got it home I noticed that the frets buzz. It's not horrible and it is uniform along all the frets so I don't think it's a matter of the frets not being level. I'm wondering if he set the strings too low. Is there supposed to be an acceptable amount of buzz after getting a fret job? I've never had one done and I guess I was expecting to hear no buzz at all. Does having buzz cause the frets to wear faster? I'd rather have the strings set higher than wear the frets out quicker.
 
Is this normal, a slight buzz along all the frets?

[stingray_65]

in short, NO, it shouldn't buzz.

On an acoustic guitar, any buzz anywhere is a sign of improper setup.

An electric is a quite a bit more forgiving. some small buzz on a particular string on a certain note can be acceptable and not audible through an amplifier.

I'd not worry so much about wearing frets as I would be of loosing sustain and other finer details in the notes. That buzz you hear  takes energy to make. it gets that energy from the note you played, dampening it, degrading it  in ways you don't have control over.

If I had just paid to have a guitar set up, and it wasn't set up so that it played well with my style of playing, I would go back to the luthier and talk a bit, show him the buzz, and ask for it to be corrected.

What surprise me about this, is that the guitar left the work shop at all. Every luthier I've ever met has always been very prideful of his work and wouldn't let something like that go out of his shop.

Ray

[jeff]

 Well I brought the guitar back to the shop. I went to get my guitar repaired at this shop because I heard that this guy was good. On the website it said that he has over 25 years experience. Come to find out he has a new apprentice and that's the guy who did my guitars. He didn't even look like he had 20 years experience on planet earth.

I know I can be overcritical at times so I took it to another shop and asked what they thought of the job and the buzz. They said that the frets didn't look like they were crowned enough, mostly flat, and that could cause it.

 Now I know everybody's gotta start sometime to become a pro but I went there, and paid my money to get a professional job done not, to give the new guy experience. There's nothing wrong with training the new guy but I feel the experienced guy should have checked his work before it went out the door. I kinda felt bad because the new guy was standing right there when I was talking to him, but I said I would prefer that he work on my guitar, not his apprentice. So he's gonna go over it personally at no extra charge. I hope it comes back better than it was.

[John]

I'm glad you're giving the shop a chance to fix the problem. It doesn't happen often, but when one of my customers does have a problem, I replace the flowers right away AND thank them for coming back to let me know. I can't fix what I don't know.

And if the apprentice is serious about pursuing this work, it's good that he was right there when you're explaining the problem and what's not right. He'll learn from this too (if he wants to).

And you're right, the real pro should have been checking his work, especially neck work.

[stingray_65]

Good for you Jeff!

You took the high road and I'm sure it will pay off. Nothing wrong with being critical, That young man may have just learned what it is to be a professional by the way you handled it. You didn't call him names or deride him. You simply stated a fact that the work was substandard. We've all ate a bit of crow, it's good to know what it tastes like. Personally I don't care for that particular cuisine, so I do what I have to do to dine better.

Do let us know  how it turns out, and if that young chap has enough pro in him to stick it out, or just turn tail.

Ray

[G._Hoffman]

Short answer - depends.


Long answer - Well, now, there are a lot of variables here.  First of all, acoustic or electric?  How hard are you playing when it buzzes?  How hard do you need it to play cleanly?  Is it only on open strings, or is it everywhere?  (You already answered that one, of course.)  And, of course, there is always the old personal preference thing.

It is pretty normal for an electric guitar to buzz a bit when it isn't plugged in.  A little bit of buzz that doesn't come through the amp is fine, and it can be set up with the action just a bit lower that way, which can be very helpful.  Also, you can ALWAYS make a guitar buzz if you try hard enough.  Don't go looking for buzzes; play normally, and see if they show up.  It's a much more useful test for both you and the repair guy.

Of course, if it is buzzing even when you are playing very lightly, that will always be a problem, but if it only buzzes when you are playing a driving bluegrass bass run, it doesn't really matter if you are a new age fingerstyle player.  Buzzes have a lot to do with the dynamics of your playing, and when the action is a bit higher, you can play a bit louder and still have it play cleanly.  Then again, a very good repair guy I know (one of the best in the world, honestly) thinks that the guitar SHOULD buzz or about the last 5% of the dynamic range you plan to use.  His theory is when you play that hard, you want it to sound a bit uncontrolled.  I think he's nuts, but he has a lot of customers who love his setups. 

So, should a guitar buzz?  In my opinion, not when you are playing your normal style.  But that doesn't mean never.  Also, kudos to your repair shop.  Everyone makes mistakes, but a good shop will fix them for free.  I can't tell you how many horror stories I've heard from guys whose guitars weren't fixed somewhere, and then the shop wanted to charge them to fix it again.  (Mind you, if I tell you it needs a fret dress to play right, and you ask me to just set it up, you are paying for the fret dress AND the set up when I am proved correct.  I'm not responsible when you do not taking my advice!)


Gabriel

[jeff]

The guitar is an electric.
 Before I brought it in I was getting a buzz on the frets that were grooved and no buzz on the other frets. After the set up I was't getting bad buzz on ceritan frets(no grooves now) instead I was getting more of a slight buzz on all frets. I get that if you wail on the string you can get it to buzz but it seems like playing with normal pick attack I was getting a buzz. The buzz didn't last the entire time the string was vibrating but buzzed at the attack and get quieter as the note decayed. I could play a note without hearing a buzz but only by playing much, much softer than I normally would play when playing a song.

[HotBluePlates]

I think you may already understand how the buzzing problem occurred, but in case others are reading who don't, here's the most likely cause:

You had grooved frets. While a repairman could file only those frets to remove the grooves, that would leave a few frets shorter than the others. That will cause the notes at the low frets to buzz or note-out.

So the usual method is to remove the strings and adjust the neck to be nearly-straight, then file all the frets down to a uniform height, stopping when the grooves disappear. The next step would be to re-crown the frets, because they have flat tops instead of a hemispherical top. Flat tops might cause uncertain intonation or buzzing, because there's not one definite point where the fret stops the string's vibration.

After recrowning, the repairman would normally install new strings, adjust the neck relief and set action/intonation to complete the setup. These things require some knowledge of the player's style, technique and preferences, because there might be slight changes to one or all of these based on string gauge and how heavy-handed the player is.

As you said, the other shop's opinion was that the frets hadn't been recrowned (or not properly), and the rest of the setup became moot. It doesn't always happen, but you'll get the best setups when the repairman knows how you play, and what your preferences are.

[jeff]

I hear ya.
I made sure when I talked about it with him I picked up the guitar and showed him how I normally play, which I didn't do when I dropped it off. Maybe I am a little heavy-handed(I don't think I am, but I'm sure everyone who is doesn't think they are either) so I asked him to play like he would normally play and it sounded a little buzzy too. I'm sure that he can't exactally reproduce my picking style when he's setting it up, but I hope that by me showing him and him comparing how it sounded when he played to when how I played it gives him a better idea of how to dial it into my stlye.

I guess the lesson is that there is no one "Correct" way to setup a guitar. The player's style dictates the height and be sure to show the tech how you play when you drop off the guitar.

And, yes, I do apperciate the fact that he's going to look at it again at no charge. Very cool, very good way to do busness, and I'm very glad he's willing to do that.

To all the tech's out there is it normal to do a setup, then have the customer play it in the shop, and tweak/fine tune to taste?

[G._Hoffman]

I hear ya.

And, yes, I do apperciate the fact that he's going to look at it again at no charge. Very cool, very good way to do busness, and I'm very glad he's willing to do that.

To all the tech's out there is it normal to do a setup, then have the customer play it in the shop, and tweak/fine tune to taste?

About 75% of people are good with what we think of as a "spec" setup, and are extremely happy with it.  Another 10-20% will need some degree of adjustment when they pick it up, and that last 5% or so will get it home, find something not quite right, and bring it back for a tweak.  Mostly, those are the guys who spend 2-6 hours a day playing, and are VERY particular about their setups, needing special care.  With some of these guys, they come in, and you spend 30-45 minutes trying the different possibilities for them, and you end up right back where you started.  But they feel better knowing they've tried the options. 


Gabriel

[Greenmachine]

I brought a squier to a business once and it was obvious they gave it to the new guy.  If you're used to playing a quality guitar with a quality set-up, you should let them know that the low-quality guitar shouldn't mislead them into thinking they can go sub-par.  Eventually, they gave my guitar to a guy with some skills and redid the bone nut and set-up.  I was pretty furious about the whole thing though - didn't blow my top or anything though.

The original nut was not seated in the slot properly - a gap clearly visible from each side of the neck.  The surface of the nut was uneven, and the action was too low, with LOTS of buzzing.

[John]

All I have is inexpensive guitars, so when I do take one in to have it worked on I make sure the guy knows that I don't mind spending the money to have whatever done. It's like, yeah I know it's a $400 guitar but I really AM willing to spend $200 to have this work done that makes it play like a $1500 guitar. 

[jeff]

 I just got my guitars back and man I'm happy I went back. He said that he recrowned the frets on the Les Paul and the look great. They sound great too! No more buzz. Yeah I can get them to buzz if I really honk on 'em as expected but when I play normal it sounds like it should. He said that on the strat the frets were too low to crown, because as the frets get lower the surface is going to be wider, which makes sense, but he redid them and that sounds great too.

 The part that pisses me off is when I brought them in I pointed out the real deep groove in the 2nd fret(much, much worse than any other fret) and we talked about replacing that one fret so all the frets didn't have to be taken down to the lowest part on the worse fret. He even said we might be able to get away with just a dress on the Les Paul. Both guitars had deep grooves, but the Strat was much, much worse that the Les Paul. But first guy only replaced the 2nd fret on the Les Paus and not the Strat! So, I think the reason the strat's frets are too low to crown is because the first guy took all the frets down to the deepest groove in the strat instead of relpacing it. I can't understand why the worse one wasn't replaced but the other one was. So when the other guy touched up the first guy's work the frets had already been ground. It just pisses me off because the strat was much much worse and didn't get replaced but the Paul wasn't nearly as bad and did. I'm sure if the fret had been replaced on the Strat there would be enough fret left to crown it right. There's hardly anything left. But I guess what's done is done.

  I really'd like to ask him. The only think I can think of is he told the new guy, "here these guitars need fret jobs and replace the 2nd fret on this one" and he replaced the 2nd fret on the wrong guitar  But it makes no difference because I can't go back in time and he's not going to replace all the frets.

 I highly recommend taking your guitar to Owen at Downtown Sounds in Northampton, Ma. Just be clear that you want Owen working on your guitar. It's probally not a bad idea to only bring one guitar in at a time too.

[John]

He just needs to take good notes.  Actually, when I take mine in I always print out a list of exactly what I want done.

[jeff]

Well I went back in and talked to Owen. He said the 2nd fret on the strat was bad but it wasn't replaced because the other frets were worn too. I reazile the other frets were worn but they were nowhere near as bad as the 2nd. But I'm not a fret repair guy so I guess what I was seeing isn't how he saw it. Oh well, I would have felt better if the 2nd fret was replaced and the guy with 25yrs of exoperience did it instead of the new kid, it still was too low especially seeing as Owen had to recrown what the new kid did on the LP. I just gotta accept what it is and look at it as they did the best with what they had to work with and even though to me it looked like the 2nd fret was worse than any other fret.

The  Les Paul is great now that Owen redid the frets the kid did so 1 out of 2 ain't bad.


Owen's did offer to do a complete refret at the normal cost minus what I already paid for the level. So If I decide I can't live with it I won't have to pay for the level and the refret. At the end of the day I'll have new frets and I'll only be out the cost of a refret.
Does that sound like something normally done?

[HotBluePlates]

Yeah, that sounds reasonable. A refret is significantly more work than a simple fret level.

I had a Les Paul Custom refretted a long while back. The guitar was a gift, and the original frets were so low they were almost even with the fretboard. I could play the guitar, but it was impossible to bend the strings without them slipping from under my fingers. A refret made that guitar playable again.

[G._Hoffman]

The vast majority of the time, a partial refret is a really bad idea.  When you put in the new fret, you need to file it down to the level of the rest of the frets, which means that you are wasting most of that fret.  It will almost always be a better job to replace all of the frets, and in the long run will virtually always be more cost effective.


Gabriel

[rafe]

I'm really happy with the luthier I now use. I bought my tele(USA)new in 89 and have had  the two lower frets replaced because of the deep ruts in them and then all leveled and crowned about six or so years ago ! Last year I had them leveled and crowned....I think I have at least one more in it.....maybe more ...
I play the tele mostly daily sometimes for hours....so it gets hard use. When it needs a re-fret it will get it. I think it is wise to replace one or two badly rutted frets which have low spots way lower than the rest of the fret board....and then file them down.....    I bend pretty heavy and have no buzz so what I am saying is it has to be done right, I also play all over the neck and the wear is more consistent or even if you like....than if you stay in the same spots. I finally replaced my bridge pick-up this week and love having that option again ...it fell off the wall and changed into a thin sounding humming mess..:)    Tele is still my favorite elec.guitar, and I'm not alone lol... the thing is you don't realize it until you have nearly worn one out

[jeff]

Would you expect a luthier of 25years experience would be able to look at a guitar and tell that the frets are too worn for a level or would he actually level it first to find out and then do a refret?

[G._Hoffman]

Would you expect a luthier of 25years experience would be able to look at a guitar and tell that the frets are too worn for a level or would he actually level it first to find out and then do a refret?

A professional should be able to tell just by looking.  It is a bit of a judgement call, and the player's style has a lot to do with it too.  There are certainly times when you could get away with a dress and will suggest a refret instead, mostly based on comfort for bending and vibrato.  It is easier to bend a string with taller frets, so if someone tells me they bend a lot, and the frets are kind of borderline, I'll suggest a refret over a dress.  If, instead, it is someone playing folk rhythm guitar, then you can get an extra dress or two out of a set of frets. 


Gabriel

[Tyrannocaster]

Ouch. I didn't see this thread until today.

See, the problem I have with this scenario is the one that you turned out to end up with: whenever you have frets dressed you end up with lower frets all around. If you're like me and you like high frets with a defined crown, you have a hard time with low, flattened frets, and that's where this road takes you. You want as few fret dressings as you can get, and you really have to trust whoever is doing the work for you. I bought a used Strat from a store here in town once and didn't notice a ding in the second fret until I got it home - this was my oversight, but it rendered the guitar unplayable. I took it back, hat in hand, and told them that since I hadn't noticed it I would understand if they didn't want to do anything about it but the store's manager (Doug at Portland Music - this is one of the good guys in the business) told me to leave the guitar with him and he'd have the whole thing redressed at his cost. Wow - how could anybody gripe about that? So I did (and Doug got a long term customer - he's made a lot more off me by now than he lost by paying for the re-dressing and I consider him a smart cookie as a result) but in the end I ended up selling the Strat because after the frets were leveled I never felt comfortable bending notes on the guitar.

This is harsh, but I would have told the shop owner that I wanted a refret. The problem is that an inexperienced, still learning person got to practice on your guitar and you had to pay him to do it. Now, would the shop have actually done one? A lot of shops would not - it depends on how much the owner stands behind his shop's work. That's why if you can find a luthier you trust you should stick with him (or her).

Really sorry to hear this sad story.

[G._Hoffman]

Ouch. I didn't see this thread until today.

See, the problem I have with this scenario is the one that you turned out to end up with: whenever you have frets dressed you end up with lower frets all around. If you're like me and you like high frets with a defined crown, you have a hard time with low, flattened frets, and that's where this road takes you. You want as few fret dressings as you can get, and you really have to trust whoever is doing the work for you. I bought a used Strat from a store here in town once and didn't notice a ding in the second fret until I got it home - this was my oversight, but it rendered the guitar unplayable. I took it back, hat in hand, and told them that since I hadn't noticed it I would understand if they didn't want to do anything about it but the store's manager (Doug at Portland Music - this is one of the good guys in the business) told me to leave the guitar with him and he'd have the whole thing redressed at his cost. Wow - how could anybody gripe about that? So I did (and Doug got a long term customer - he's made a lot more off me by now than he lost by paying for the re-dressing and I consider him a smart cookie as a result) but in the end I ended up selling the Strat because after the frets were leveled I never felt comfortable bending notes on the guitar.

This is harsh, but I would have told the shop owner that I wanted a refret. The problem is that an inexperienced, still learning person got to practice on your guitar and you had to pay him to do it. Now, would the shop have actually done one? A lot of shops would not - it depends on how much the owner stands behind his shop's work. That's why if you can find a luthier you trust you should stick with him (or her).

Really sorry to hear this sad story.

The guy messed up a setup (about an hour or so), so the shop should pay for a refret (3-6 hours)?  No, sorry, that's not going to happen anywhere.  Fix the setup work, absolutely, but a refret is a completely different job, for a completely different issue, and was not required for the issue at hand.


Gabriel

[Tyrannocaster]

Sorry, but I disagree. Not on the point that the luthier might not go along (most probably wouldn't), but on the idea that the shop owner isn't responsible. It wasn't just a setup, it was also a fret dress according to the OP. Any fret dressing that results in the need for a refret is just wrong and that's my point. If the frets are so worn already that dressing them will result in an unplayable guitar then it's the shop's responsibility to tell the customer that and give him the choice in advance. In this case, the dressing was done poorly and the result was the need for another one only this time the shop owner realized that maybe things had gotten out of hand and offered to do a re-fret for half price. That was good but it could have been better.

We can argue this until we are blue in the face and not agree.

[G._Hoffman]

Sorry, but I disagree. Not on the point that the luthier might not go along (most probably wouldn't), but on the idea that the shop owner isn't responsible. It wasn't just a setup, it was also a fret dress according to the OP. Any fret dressing that results in the need for a refret is just wrong and that's my point. If the frets are so worn already that dressing them will result in an unplayable guitar then it's the shop's responsibility to tell the customer that and give him the choice in advance. In this case, the dressing was done poorly and the result was the need for another one only this time the shop owner realized that maybe things had gotten out of hand and offered to do a re-fret for half price. That was good but it could have been better.

We can argue this until we are blue in the face and not agree.

He had one fret he wanted replace before the thing got started, which as I already said is almost never the best solution, but non-the-less.  There is nothing in a normal setup that will damage a fret.  Sure, if you damage a fret, you should fix the problem (we have, on two occasions, had to buy new necks for customers who were paying us less than $20, one of which was arguably the customer's fault, but we just bought him a new neck.  The other was unquestionably our guy's fault, and THAT one we had to make from scratch - a free consultation on a home made neck that became a $1,000 loss, so trust me, if we mess up, I know all about fixing mistakes), but that isn't what we are talking about here.  There was an existing problem with the frets, and the setup didn't fix it.  The only thing the shop did was miss the problem, and give it to the wrong guy.  Not at ALL something that means you get a free $400 fret job.


Gabriel

[Willabe]

Sorry, but I disagree. We can argue this until we are blue in the face and not agree.

NO, sorry, but I disagree with you.  

I don't know if you build guitars or how many you have built, but I do know that Gabriel and his father, who taught him and passed on the trade to his son, with the love of teaching his son, as only a father would and gave it to his son with all the wisdom, knowledge and understanding of _HOW_ to build _ A _ instrument by hand and all that it entails. Including providing a great instrument to their buyers and yet still being able to provide for their families.

If you would take even a little bit of time to search for the father and sons work on the net, I know it would be clear how the quality of their work has blessed many a musician in their quest to make their best music.  

(My farther gave me ,passed on to me, taught me what he had to share and I'm grateful for it.)

 
                Brad        

[jeff]

I guess the lesson I learned is ask who is working on your guitar.

The part that gets me the most is when it was time to get my guitar done I looked for the most experienced guy I could find. I saw a bunch of websites for shops in my area. This one advertised Owen for guitar repair with a write up about him, 25yrs experience etc. I googled owen and read he does good work, I went into the shop and talked to Owen, handed over my guitar to Owen, and was horrified to find some kid worked on the guitar. I walked in thinking I found the most experienced guy in my area and left with the feeling I just paid for this kids education.
The fact that when I brought it in Owen said the 2nd fret needed to be replaced, but it wasn't doesn't make sense to me.
The fact Owen said I didn't need a refret, then the kid worked on it, now it does, doesn't make sense to me.
The fact that Owen said the kid did just as good a job as he would have done, but yet Owen had to retouch the LP to get the buzz out doesn't make sense to me.
Owen said the kid was working under his "watchful eye" but fact that I told Owen not to do the electroinic but the kid redid them doesn't make sense to me.

I just feel I did everything I could to get the best guy I could find and didn't get that. If Owen had done the work and it came out like this I would have to just accept that it is just the way it is, but that's the part that's driving me crazy. I took it to a guy with 25yrs experience and I'll never know what a guy with 25yrs experience could have done with it. When we talked he told me it could be saved and now I'll never know what he could have done with it.

I know everyone has to start somewhere but it's like getting a haircut. You can go to a professional barbershop or you can go to the barber training school. When you go to the training school you may or may not get a good haircut and the teacher can touch up what the student did wrong(LP) but can't do anything if he takes a big chunk off(strat).

I think the customer has a right to know where he's going- Professinal or Trainee. If Owen said to me, I'm not the one doing the work I would have walked out of there. At the very least if their website said Owen and this Kid's name for guitar repair I could have researched both and said I want Owen working on my guitar. I'm not saying there was anything deceptive going on but when you read the site-Owen come in-Owen hand it over to -Owen and you are expecting Owen to be the one doing the work.
Feels like the ole bait and switch."Bring your guitar here we have a tech with 25yrs experince working here(he's not the one actually doing the work...., but he works here)"

 So was it a matter of the guitar being too far gone or the kid messed it up? I'll never know, that's the part that kills me, I'll never know. I don't think it's right that I walk away with a refret at the price of a level but now I'm in the position where I have money in it and have to pay more to get it done right. I think if the pro says it needs a new 2nd fret and a level and not a refret, and the kid didn't put the 2nd fret on and now it's ground too far down, and needs a refret, somethings wrong.   

[cbass]

I don't think there is anything wrong with him having an employee work on your guitar but he should do the final inspection to make sure everything is right.

Learn to set them up yourself.Fret dressing isn't that hard after you screw a couple up.Just start out on some cheap guitars that you arent attached to.I'm sure I'm not on the level of a pro thats done it everyday for 20 years.but my guitarsplay a helluva a lot better than the new ones at the Music store.Even the very expesive ones.

[jojokeo]

Wow, fun reading. Some valuable lessons learned here for many which makes for a great thread so thanks Jeff and sorry that you've been the guinee pig a little bit.

I think the bottom line is COMMUNICATION in a number of ways. I get criticized at times for over communicating but it's imperative for preventing things like this.

In my world, I follow through with many of the items mentioned earlier in this thread - ahead of time. In my assessment, I "speak out loud" to the customer what my findings are as I go through everything. In doing this it also allows the customer to understand not just that there's a bad 2nd fret but the possibilities of fixes or ramifications for things that may occur during the course of a repair. There may be things the customer may not realize or that I find and I may get additional money for things they weren't aware of but maybe also want fixed or improved on too?! Once they fully understand the overall situation and various details, the customer makes the decisions either based on money or of various outcomes of their decision(s). IF there is anything amiss once repairs are in process that weren't discussed, then a simple phone call is made to inform and if necessary approval for additional work is made, etc. There are rarely if ever any surprises with repairs or money owed. Everythings up front and if anything, they feel really good about the work they're getting for their money and they learn some things too. Everyone goes away happy and return business is usually a given.

I shake my head at some of the things read earlier here as Jeff went through this ordeal. He has a valid point to all the frets on the neck being unnecessarily lowered because of one or two bad ones. That's just horrible thinking and I can think of a bunch of analogies to where this doesn't make much sense as being a "fix". But, Gabriel also has a point about something turning into another issue completely. But I'm sure in his shop this wouldn't have happened in the first place.

Lastly when people are learning especially, that 2nd and 3rd fret area gets worked HARD from everyone playing root position A, D, and G chords all the time and this is where many learn to make vibrato happen in the beginning too. This is really a common thing for the average luthier to see and get repairs for. A good repair guy should know how to address this pretty easily w/out the nightmare Jeff has had to go through.

[G._Hoffman]

...In my assessment, I "speak out loud" to the customer what my findings are as I go through everything. In doing this it also allows the customer to understand not just that there's a bad 2nd fret but the possibilities of fixes or ramifications for things that may occur during the course of a repair. There may be things the customer may not realize or that I find and I may get additional money for things they weren't aware of but maybe also want fixed or improved on too?! Once they fully understand the overall situation and various details, the customer makes the decisions either based on money or of various outcomes of their decision(s). IF there is anything amiss once repairs are in process that weren't discussed, then a simple phone call is made to inform and if necessary approval for additional work is made, etc. There are rarely if ever any surprises with repairs or money owed. Everythings up front and if anything, they feel really good about the work they're getting for their money and they learn some things too. Everyone goes away happy and return business is usually a given...

Yup, full disclosure at every stage, and never EVER spend the customers money without their approval.  Make sure each aspect of the repair and the bill are understood upfront.  (Mind you, some people seem to forget awfully fast!)  Conducting your business in the most honest way possible is the only way to last in what is, after all, a service business that is all about reputation.  Word of mouth is the only advertising that actually works, but it can also kill you stone dead if you treat people badly. 


Gabriel

[jeff]

Exactally-communication!
 I think that's where everything went wrong. I did communicate with the guy, but not the guy doing the work.
I said I didn't want the electronics work on, but they were. Cuz the guy doing the work didn't know what I wanted.
I said I wanted the 2nd fret replaced so we didn't have to lower all frets too far, but again        "   "
 Ever play that game telephone as a kid?


OK let's just assume the guitar was too far gone and the 2nd fret couldn't be replaced and this wasn't a mis-communication. Let's assume everything we said when I brought the guitar in was told to the guy doing the work.
Don't you think I should have gotten a call saying "That thing we discussed, that you wanted me to do to your guitar, isn't gonna work. Do you want me to level it anyway(and tie up $140) or do you want me to hold off until you have the money to refret it?"

I just don't understand "Here's your guitar. We couldn't do what you wanted so we leveled it anyway. That'll be $140. By the way, you need new frets" - Yeah I know!!! That's why I wanted the fret replaced!!!


I have $140 into the guitar right now. He said he'd refret it for $180, but I can't come up with ($140 + $140 + $180=)$480 in one month, and it's gonna cost me like $295 to get it done later. I'm in the position where I can't afford to do it, but I can't afford not to do it. By the time I come up with the money he's probally not gonna give me the discount because it's been too long and it's gonna wind up costing me $435 in the end for a $295 job.  So I wasted $140. If the thing I wanted done, replacing the 2nd fret, couldn't be done, fine, but tell me, I'll get it done right later when I have the money. But don't do what I was trying to avoid, that we discussed, anyway.  And that's the problem:communication. The guy doing the work didn't know what I wanted.

[jojokeo]

Yep you seem justified to be pissed about this with them. You may be best served to speak with the guy stating just what you've done now. Finish it with, "so what can you do about this?" OR at least get him to honor the repair for less even months later when you do get the money together. He'll remember you I'm sure but get it in writing from the guy. OR do it by email so that you have documented proof in case you need it.

Just be glad this isn't a situation that involved a dentist. I had something like this happen and the returned reply was, "that's why it's called a practice. There are no guarantee's and we do the best we can, etc...." I said, "A PRACTICE!!!??? SO YOU'RE PRACTICING ON ME AND DIDN'T TELL ME!!!???" LOL
Not to mention that I'd gone to a specialist, then another place that made the crown to get it colored correctly to match, and there were other things that led up to this also. I had maybe $1500 to $2000 invested in all of this to this point. I ended up getting them to replace the crown and do it all over for nothing more out of pocket! It was very frustrating and PAINFULL in more ways than one. Just another lesson learned from SHK University. (School of Hard Knocks)