Best speaker config for TOS 2x12 ?

[SILVERGUN]

I just decided to start a TOS build, and I'm counting on you guys for speaker suggestions....the goal is the smoothest, liquid, sustaining, harmonic laden overdrive tone you've ever heard,,,simple right?........I've used Vintage 30's for the past 10 years with good results....I sold that cabinet and I'm looking to fill a closed back 2x12 cab I have laying around
I realize this is all subject to personal taste, but I'm looking for some recommendations based on what your research has proven....I'm sure there are a couple of you out there who have spent a lot of time on this subject.
I'm asking for you to share the magic.... I just don't have time to do all the research myself....I'm hoping you appreciate my honesty and just give me the good stuff.
Thanks in advance for your generosity and hard work!

[stingray_65]

I've never considered a 2x 12 for either TOS That I built.

However had several in the original version TOS (both were made in combo cabs so take that with the grain of salt also)

The first speaker was a Weber 12A125A and it was great, nice compression at higher volume.
Next I tried a Celestion  super 65 I pulled from a cheap marshall 4 x 12 cab, I did not like it at all, lasted maybe an hour before I pulled it.
I threw in an Eminence Wizard and REALLY liked that. was articulate, LOUD! wow! real loud! and sold the amp with that speaker in it
Maybe 6 months later, the owner wanted to try a different speaker he had, so we popped in an Eminence Red Fang,  The articulation was still there, but somewhat softer, not muted just softer,less edgy, the loudness again was there but again less harsh and biting. The big difference between a Wizard and Red Fang to me is the magnet Wizard uses ceramic and gives a more HiFi response, the Red Fang is  AlNiCo and is a bit softer. they are both super efficient and will nearly double the perceived volume.
The red fang to me (and the owner) the choice for that amp.

Now the TOS V2 w/ CF is a different animal. The  cathode follower takes out that edginess and  somewhat tames the OD, I used the Wizard again and have no doubt it is the speaker for this amp.

OH, I didn't mention this before, but both versions I built I used a fixed bias output instead of the cathode biased design  our good gentlemen designed. I also ran the B+ rail about 20% higher. This gave me a cleaner, more black face sounding clean channel, all the OD and grind in their design is in the pre-amp.

When I go to build this amp again (I have no doubt I will) I'll build the original version, fixed bias and put it in a head cab.

Ray

[SILVERGUN]

Thanks Ray, great stuff there...
I love the fact that you don't play,BUT you have the passion for great tone....I love the quote "building amps is my way of making music"....brilliant

So that's:
TOS original = Red Fang (if I want that softer response,,, which I do)
TOS CF = Wizard

The beauty of the 2x12 is that I can mix and match....maybe the easy answer is just one of each??

[jojokeo]

Being the owner of all three I'd say you can't go wrong with what Ray's said. However, I don't have them running with a TOS.

I have the Wizard in JCM800-ish/AFD-type combo using 6V6s that can be ran either fixed or cathode biased - mostly fixed w/ the band and I get so many compliments on my tone with it. Sometimes it's hard to hear the projection that other's in the audience hear at more of a distance away.

I have a Red Fang in suped-up tweed amp ran cathode biased also w/ 6V6s and it's perfect in that amp. Seems to go along w/ what Rays said earlier as far as tone and same reasons. I use this when playing more blues and blues rock gigs. It kills in this genre and is right in it's wheel house.

I have the 12a125a Weber in it's own cab that I run w/ a number of lower powered mostly SE amps and it's just a sweet sweet very well rounded speaker, efficient, can be chimey like a celestion blue, lots of harmonic content, very transparent, etc.  Everyone that's tried one that I've pointed them to this has had nothing but glowing responses about it. I can't say the 1" v-coil 100 or the 1 1/2" 150 sound's the same but that 11/4" 125 is really good.

I have two 12" cabs I run side by side for testing & tweaking my amps with. One is the Celestion Blue but the other currently has the Governor and I was pleasantly surprised w/ how it sounded orginally and was a great contrast to the blue. Eminence really makes some great speakers for a reasonable cost plus if you're into buying American then there you go. Tubenit I think runs a Red White & Blue and I'm not positive what geezer uses either...maybe a Swamp Thing? Better for them to confirm this as they can make a number of changes since I've last post or thread was read.

[SILVERGUN]

Thanks again Keo, I appreciate ALL of your input....
I only have experience with the Vintage 30 and can't wait to try something new, just cant afford to try them all.
I'll be running 6V6 in my new TOS build, so you're advice is right on the money.

[Geezer]

I'm not positive what geezer uses either...maybe a Swamp Thing? Better for them to confirm this as they can make a number of changes since I've last post or thread was read.

Texas Heat in a 1x12 closed back ported cab is what I use. Works great either clean or overdriven. It is the closest in tone to my beloved original Weber Signature (from when Ted 1st got started way back when) that was stolen a while back.

In a 2x12 I would probably do a Texas Heat & a Swamp Thang. The Heat breaks up a little later, and the Thang has a bit more top end sizzle

Eminence Speaker Comparison: Reignmaker Vs Texas Heat Vs Swamp Thang

Eminence Texas Heat & Swamp Thang Speaker Demo

The same guy demos the ManOWar and Govn'r together, which sound quite nice, so you may also consider those. I like his demos, as you get a clear sense of the different tones the speakers produce.

Eminence Speaker Demo: The Governor & Man O War

Geezer

Oh, and make sure you give the speakers time to break in, or speed the break-in up with a 6.3v PT or a variac. There is info on the weber forum (& other web sources) on how to do this. It makes all the difference in the world to my ears.

[SILVERGUN]

Thanks Geezer,
WOW, I had no idea it could make THAT MUCH difference...
Those video demos are priceless....that was exacxtly what I was looking for....really appreciate it!!

[Ed_Chambley]

The absolute best cab I own was made by Jeff at JDesigns.  I make cabs as well, but usually combo because I am making a cabinet anyway for the amp I am building and it dose not cost much more to make it larger.

Back to the cab, it is a 3/4", #1 birch all the way.  Like a nice drum set.  It is loaded with Weber Blue Dog and Silver Bell Alnicos.  Simply blows anything else I have away.  The combination is similar to having Vox like highs and lows and Marshall mids.  It is truely the best cab I have ever played.  They are $205 each and in my opinion worth every penny.  I overbuilt  Princeton recently and was using it as a test cabinet and a friend was over.  He said man that is the best amp you ever built.   I laughed and said it is not the amp.  He went straight home and brought over his Fargen MK2.  Needless to say, he is waiting for his cabinet to be completed.

Speakers are a very personal choice, but I have found a good speaker usually cost a few bucks.  I just scored a brand new Celestion Gold for $100.  I have never heard one, but I am willing to bet all the tea in China it will sound killer.  They retail for $289, so I cannot lose.

[jojokeo]

Ed,
What wattages are the Webers??? I've got a 50w Blue Dog but it doesn't even compare to my Celestion Blue's. Way to dark, not chimey at all and I rarely play it as a result. I'm betting no more than 30 watters "may" be okay? Maybe 20w's if using two of them together?

[SILVERGUN]

Thanks Ed, I went right to JDesigns website and checked em out....nice stuff there,,,,,but I actually have the cabs already, just looking for speakers to try to get closer to "the" sound....I have been to Weber's site too,,,,just soooo many options

I hope this doesn't sound stupid,,,but here it goes

Excuse my ignorance, but I have spent many years playing a Mesa Triaxis with a Simul 395 power amp through (2) 2x12 cabs loaded with Celes. Vintage 30's....just used 'em and never questioned it...everyone was always telling me how "great" my guitar sounded,,,,but I'm not sure I ever really heard any "breakup".......and I was never totally thrilled with my own sound........never really questioned my clean sound because it was always just there, and most of what we played was distorted barre chord cover songs, with all of my dist. coming from the preamp

For high gain lead solo stuff (mostly what I do), I like the sound of a low watt speaker being driven to the point where the notes sound like they are bursting through the cone when you begin or end a phrase,, kinda like the initial attack comes from the speaker "pushing air",,,,,and at the same time it sounds like the highs are somewhat attenuated creating a smoother,,,less brittle tone,,,,with more howl than bark,,,and more compressed than not,,,,more liquid than crunchy....very touch sensitive with a ton of sustain.....that's the best way I can describe it

From the Eminence examples above I would lean more towards the Texas Heat, and the Governor, with neither really being ideal

This is definitely one of those topics where the ton of variables + the ton of available choices = confusion

I know that this clip is more about his amp setup and guitar mid boost ....but it must be coming through speakers, and I wanted to remind us all why we are here GOOD LUCK "MODELING" THIS TONE!
Eric Clapton - Forever Man Solo

This is cool too:
Eric Johnson on the Eminence EJ1250 Guitar Speaker

[tubenit]

From the Eminence examples above I would lean more towards the Texas Heat, and the Governor

Hey that's interesting ..............   prior to reading that statement,  I concluded the same two choices. 

Having said that,  I use an Emminence Cannabis Rex  and a Red, White & Blues with my  Tweed BluezMeister and Tweed Overdrive Special.   I like both of them.  And I also wished I could try out some other speakers to see if there was something even better out there.

I like the speaker Eric Johnson is demo-ing ........... but I have the feeling it would not sound the same with my amp, guitar and playing?
 

with respect, Tubenit

[Willabe]

I like the speaker Eric Johnson is demo-ing ........... but I have the feeling it would not sound the same with my amp, guitar and playing?

I wish he would have turned off the verb/delay for part of the demo. I'm not sure I can realy hear the speakers tone with it on?


                   Brad          

[SILVERGUN]

I wish he would have turned off the verb/delay for part of the demo. I'm not sure I can realy hear the speakers tone with it on?


                   Brad          

That would be like Superman flying without a cape....

[Willabe]

That would be like Superman flying without a cape....

       Yeah, I guess so, but he is demoing a speakers sound. How about 1/2 with 1/2 without?


                      Brad         

[jojokeo]

I think they're selling EJ and the EJ sound with it and causing you to think you can have too if you buy that speaker. I can't imagine it being anything totally different from a lot of other alnico's already out there. I wonder how long it will take before they are being re-sold on ebay after buyers' remorse & realize this, then try to recoup most of their money?

[Willabe]

I think they're selling EJ and the EJ sound with it and causing you to think you can have too if you buy that speaker.

Ahh, good point jojokeo.   


                       Brad     

[SILVERGUN]

Yeah, that thing is $$$$$$$$

I thought they figured out how to build delay and reverb INTO the speaker

Now that would justify the price.......

[Willabe]

                

Stop making me laugh, I gotta keep on practicing....
                                  

                                              Brad    

[SILVERGUN]

Did anyone of you guys notice the built in attenuator on the Eminence Reignmaker???....interesting, indeed
I was considering building a resistive load into one of my 2x12 cabs and ran accross this...I had no idea....

Eminence FDM Reignmaker Speaker

[duke of earl]

Hey Silvergun-Try the Weber Legacy's. I have 2 in my own 6v6 build and they are supersweet. Nice thing is you can select magnet size and voice coil size to your liking. They are on sale right now for $90/piece.

[jojokeo]

I think they're selling EJ and the EJ sound with it and causing you to think you can have too if you buy that speaker. I can't imagine it being anything totally different from a lot of other alnico's already out there. I wonder how long it will take before they are being re-sold on ebay after buyers' remorse & realize this, then try to recoup most of their money?

I just saw an EJ go for $199 + shipping on eBay. It has officially begun.

[SILVERGUN]

Yeah, the guy who originally bought it was pissed because when he opened the box he found out that EJ's hands aren't included

He's gonna try again with the George Lynch model Celestion......I don't think GL is too busy these days so there is a chance

[Ed_Chambley]

Ed,
What wattages are the Webers??? I've got a 50w Blue Dog but it doesn't even compare to my Celestion Blue's. Way to dark, not chimey at all and I rarely play it as a result. I'm betting no more than 30 watters "may" be okay? Maybe 20w's if using two of them together?

They are both light dope, 50 watts.  I have some blues as well, but the blue dog I have is not dark at all.  That is why I have a silver bell, to balance it.  It is a mid scooped speaker and compresses very well.  Keep in mind the cabinet is birch, but I would not describe them as dark at all.

I use a variac to do break-in.  I run low voltage to them and let them hum for about 3 or 4 days, not 3 or 4 hours.  I would call Brian at weber.  Something has to be goofy in the speaker.

Yours is an Alnico, right?  I just saw this post.  If you want to sell it, let me know.  I will buy it if it is an alnico.  The ones I have are very chimey.

The other speakers I like are a pair of Altec 417.  I have 2 of them in a old bassman cabinet.  The 2, 12 cab with the board separating them.  They are not chimey, but have the best upper mids I have ever heard and a lot of thumping bass.

[SILVERGUN]

I use a variac to do break-in.  I run low voltage to them and let them hum for about 3 or 4 days, not 3 or 4 hours

Approx. what voltage?

[Geezer]

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showpost.php?p=9586498&postcount=5

Take a look at that thread.

[Ed_Chambley]

I use a variac to do break-in.  I run low voltage to them and let them hum for about 3 or 4 days, not 3 or 4 hours

Approx. what voltage?

The thread posted Geezer is a good one.  There is a website dedicated to this.  Just search Google for variac speaker break in.  If you use the full amount of voltage, they can get annoying.  I have a speaker box I put them into that is lined with soundproofing material.  I also use about 2/3 rds of the voltage as different speaker makers have different ways of coming up with the wattage of a speaker.

I have some 15 watt Celestion blues.  The 16ohm speakers do not move as much as some I got from weber which are also 15 watts 16 ohm.  Just as a precaution I don't push it, I just let them vibrate longer.  Weber states their wattage is under most others, but this is not always so.  You can burn up a speaker in a hurry if you are not careful.

http://www.unclespot.com/speakerbreakin.html

This is a link to the website I mentioned.

[SILVERGUN]

Thanks guys 

[jojokeo]

Jim told me that he runs the speakers on two hours then lets them rest/cool down for an hour and lets the speakers cycle like this until the amount of break-in time is reached. You can do two or more speakers at a time also but I'd have to find the email info he gave me if this is wanted.

Ed, It is an alnico 50w blue dog w/ medium dope I think? I'm not home to check right now. I've had the speaker mounted in a small single MDF cab I made a long time ago and maybe last played though it 6 months ago in my bedroom using an EF86 pp el84 chassis amp. Probably the last time I played that amp too!?

They mostly just sit there until I get a hair up my butt to fire them up and at least charge up the caps a bit. That amp was my first pentode amp from a long while back. It's bare bones w/ only a vol control & a push/pull pot for bias change and a pentode/triode power tube switch. I may take it apart one day and make the ultimate potpouri of ef86 controls?

[Ed_Chambley]

Ed, It is an alnico 50w blue dog w/ medium dope I think? I'm not home to check right now. I've had the speaker mounted in a small single MDF cab I made a long time ago and maybe last played though it 6 months ago in my bedroom using an EF86 pp el84 chassis amp. Probably the last time I played that amp too!?


[/quote]
Closed or Open back?  When I first got one I was not happy with is as it was harsh on the highs, but after I got it broke in well I like it better than anything else for vintage tone.  Can't say I have given up on Vintage 30's tho.  If I have a place to setup a big rig, I use a plexi 50 watter with closed back 2,12's Vintage 30's and on top is the open back silver bell and blue dog.  All in white tolex.  It looks impressive swinging a Black Beauty Les Paul in front of it.  I simply have too much equipment, but I can never decide what to sell so while I am at it, why not get more.  If you decide to sell it, PM me.  I'll bet if you try it in a couple of other cabs/amp configurations it will grow on you.  Did me, so I ordered another.

The 2 hour and rest, I read about but I am not that industrious.  I just cut the voltage and let speakers run.  You can hear them change tone as they run.  They get smoother and darker coming out of the box I made.  Soon as they are ready I put them in an amp and crank them enough to piss off one of my neighbors and the neighbor on the other side comes over grinning from ear to ear.  She and her husband love to sing and there are pretty good as long as the top is still on the 1800 Tequila.