doom metal amps anyone?

[bakerlite]

So the Drummer for the band I play in happens to play doom metal in his spare time!
He wants me to build him an amp but to be honest I havent a clue  what circuit to reccomend.
He basically wants a tone and breakup like this video more so at 6m:12s
Dunwich Amps The Wizard Demo

Has anyone here built anything that comes close to this?

We are thinking power wise of a 100 watt head 

not looking for any features like reverb and delay built in like the above.

thanks

[Katie 77]

a friend of mine uses a JC-120 and a Boss MT2 to get that very tone
so, for ~$600, he'd have it

[Tone Junkie]

I would just build an engle pre amp with an slo power section. although I really like the vht pitbull pre amp also . do you just need a lead channel or a clean channel to go with it. lead dress is of the utmost importance here. go to sloclone forum and read a bunch in the (other noteworthy amps) section. If you read through a few posts untill your find what your looking for , it doesnt do any good to ask for aschematic if they dont know you they wont give it up , but its there if you will read through a bunch of posts already
Bill

[The_Gaz]

Sounds like a cranked Orange. That sound (blocking distortion) is achieved by a lot of bass in the through amp and a cathodyne phase inverter being slammed to holy hell. I bet that amp is an orange with an extra gain stage, which is what the higher gain Electric amps are. Tone is cool, but for only one style of music.

[Katie 77]

Or a Green (Matamp)
Sleep - The Dopesmoker Story ("Such Hawks, Such Hounds" Segment)

[new05002]

thanks for the link to my video. in case your wondering that amp is fairly far from an Orange. Its has 4 gain stages then a series effects loop into a long tail pair. The thing it does share with Orange/Matamps/EA is excessive amount of preamp bass, the Depth/FAC control, and the Baxandall stack. Generally speaking you can get a lot of that doom sound by just getting the massive early bass in the preamp then working it from there. I think that prototype clip is not as good as the later clips of the 1st production model I made. Search my youtube if ur curious.

If you (original poster) want me to share the scheme a bit as long as you (original poster) keep it to yourself i will share it. please email dunwichamps@gmail.com

thanks

Nick

[phsyconoodler]

That's easy.Build a Marshall JCM 800 with one extra gain stage and up the mid pot to 50k.Then you get all that gain plus more and can scoup the mids out so it's as heavy as hell.
 More gain and less mids = doom metal.
   Throw in a set of Zack Wilde EV's and there you are.Hit it with EMG's or hotter humbuckers and you are done.
  Add a .1 cap in series with the negative feedback  and it gets really dark and fat sounding.
I've done this and put it beside Fuchs Mantis and it kicks the Fuch's ass.Same as SLO's.

It's all about gain stages and mid scoup.....IMHO.

[new05002]

2203/2204s are too bright and dont have enough bass to get that sound without a pedal in front of it. You need to replace all the cathode bypass caps with 50uFs or so, increase all the coupling caps possibly and remove all the bright caps and treble peakers. Then another stage of gain on top of that would get u into that kind of ballpark. Changing the 25k to a 50k is a marginal increase in the mid range. Better to push the slope resistor to 22-27k

[bakerlite]

Hey nick, I.d love a peak at that schematic, especially as my buddy was the one who directed me to the above video.
Pm sent

[darkbluemurder]

I would just build an engle pre amp with an slo power section.

That is a good start, and it can be done with 3 12AX7s, including the phase inverter.

Cheers Stephan

[darkbluemurder]

2203/2204s are too bright and dont have enough bass to get that sound with a pedal in front of it.

I agree.

You need to replace all the cathode bypass caps with 50uFs or so, increase all the coupling caps possibly and remove all the bright caps and treble peakers. Then another stage of gain on top of that would get u into that kind of ballpark.

Increasing bass in the early stages results in mud IMHO. For high gain amps I had better results in increasing (or should I say: not decreasing) the bass later in the preamp.

Changing the 25k to a 50k is a marginal increase in the mid range. Better to push the slope resistor to 22-27k

I also agree to that, especially if you are after a really dark tone.

Cheers Stephan

[phsyconoodler]

Quote:"

   
   

   Reply with quoteQuote
Quote from: new05002 on August 27, 2012, 07:17:19 pm
2203/2204s are too bright and dont have enough bass to get that sound with a pedal in front of it.

I agree.

Quote from: new05002 on August 27, 2012, 07:17:19 pm
You need to replace all the cathode bypass caps with 50uFs or so, increase all the coupling caps possibly and remove all the bright caps and treble peakers. Then another stage of gain on top of that would get u into that kind of ballpark.

Increasing bass in the early stages results in mud IMHO. For high gain amps I had better results in increasing (or should I say: not decreasing) the bass later in the preamp.

Quote from: new05002 on August 27, 2012, 07:17:19 pm
Changing the 25k to a 50k is a marginal increase in the mid range. Better to push the slope resistor to 22-27k

I also agree to that, especially if you are after a really dark tone.

Cheers Stephan




Unless you try it that makes no sense.The 2203/4 circuit is a prime candidate for doom metal.Very little is needed to get them into the 'dark zone'.
 You do not need to change the slope resistor at all.The 50k mid pot allows you to scoup the mids right out if you want.
  I change the preamp cathode bypass caps,add a mid bypass cap and leave the treble peaking circuit alone,just don't use the bright cap.
 Then add the .1uf cap in series with the negative feedback and you get a huge increase in bass response.
It makes those sound clips sound rather lame.Add a gain stage and it makes those clips sound like you are playing a toy.

[phsyconoodler]

And changing the coupling caps it totally unnecessary.They pass lots of bass..

 Do one properly first before you naysay it.

[tubenit]

You need to replace all the cathode bypass caps with 50uFs or so

Maybe Sluckey or HotBluePlates can chime in here?  My understanding is that anything over around 10uf is useless with guitar frequencies so I am not sure 50uf (in the preamp)  will help anything other than make the tone more muddy and less articulate/transparent.

My impression is that Physconoodler is quite knowledgeable about amps ............... so I personally would lean towards trying out his advice. If you get on his amp building website, there are some amazingly great tone clips from his amps.   There certainly has been lots of metal done with Marshall type amps.

IF you need a "darker" tone,  you can also look at the Duncan Tone Stack calculator for ideas especially around increasing bass and midscooped tones.

Just my two cents.  With respect, Tubenit

[Willabe]

My impression is that Physconoodler is quite knowledgeable about amps ............... so I personally would lean towards trying out his advice. If you get on his amp building website, there are some amazingly great tone clips from his amps.

Yup.       


More than 1 way to skin a cat but I'd take a shot at what Physconoodler has to say first.


                       Brad       

[new05002]

I dont mean to offend folks but you have to know a little bit about the kind of music we are thinking about. Mud/Sludge/Massive early bass/Blocking distortion in small doses are all what people are trying to achieve in doom/sludge/stoner so running 50uF/47nF type biasing it how you achieve that. So yes I have built enough amps to know what works for that kind of sound. Mud is what people are going for. If you want hi-gain djent metal thats an whole different type of amp.

For example, check out the basic Or/Mat schematic, 50uF/47n in both first stages, baxandall stack, and then 47n couplers off the PI, not a hint of low end cut anywhere, and the tone stack is dead flat at high noon on the controls. Tons of mids, excessive bass, dark as hell. Thats one reason they are popular in this kind of music. Its not to say that a 2203/2204 cant get you a good sound, but the folks who run 2203/2204s jack into the lo input and run the front end heavy with pedals. Its not primarily an amp gain type of sound.

I primarily cater to the doom/sludge/stoner audience.

If you want the 2203/2204 to be used sans pedals it need a hefty increase in low end gain.

here is an example of a 18W GT120 amp (also half Trainwreck) and the kind of low end sludgy dark sound I am talking about

Dunwich Amps DoomTrain First Clip

[The_Gaz]

I dont mean to offend folks but you have to know a little bit about the kind of music we are thinking about. Mud/Sludge/Massive early bass/Blocking distortion in small doses are all what people are trying to achieve in doom/sludge/stoner so running 50uF/47nF type biasing it how you achieve that. So yes I have built enough amps to know what works for that kind of sound. Mud is what people are going for. If you want hi-gain djent metal thats an whole different type of amp.

For example, check out the basic Or/Mat schematic, 50uF/47n in both first stages, baxandall stack, and then 47n couplers off the PI, not a hint of low end cut anywhere, and the tone stack is dead flat at high noon on the controls. Tons of mids, excessive bass, dark as hell. Thats one reason they are popular in this kind of music. Its not to say that a 2203/2204 cant get you a good sound, but the folks who run 2203/2204s jack into the lo input and run the front end heavy with pedals. Its not primarily an amp gain type of sound.

I primarily cater to the doom/sludge/stoner audience.

If you want the 2203/2204 to be used sans pedals it need a hefty increase in low end gain.

here is an example of a 18W GT120 amp (also half Trainwreck) and the kind of low end sludgy dark sound I am talking about

Dunwich Amps DoomTrain First Clip

Trust this guy. This is a very specific tone we're talking about here, which sounds horrible in almost any other context. It's supposed to sound like it's disintegrating!

[tubenit]

Mud is what people are going for. If you want hi-gain djent metal thats an whole different type of amp.

OK, fair enough.  You're right, I don't know anything about that kind of tone/music.

With respect, Tubenit

[new05002]

yea i know it sounds nuts, going to design for things that most builders always ignore. It seems odd so I can understand the difference in opinion. For just about any other type of sound, yes such low end would be a detriment. I totally know where some of these recommendations of coming from and I do know people on this forum are quite knowledgeable about amps, so I will give respect where its due.

[Boots Deville]

curious - what speakers favored for this kind of tone?

[darkbluemurder]

I dont mean to offend folks but you have to know a little bit about the kind of music we are thinking about. Mud/Sludge/Massive early bass/Blocking distortion in small doses are all what people are trying to achieve in doom/sludge/stoner so running 50uF/47nF type biasing it how you achieve that. So yes I have built enough amps to know what works for that kind of sound. Mud is what people are going for.

No offense taken. If that is what you are going for, then I agree your suggestions will get it.

Cheers Stephan

[darkbluemurder]

The 50k mid pot allows you to scoup the mids right out if you want.

It does not really scoop out more than the stock 25k pot. Zero is zero, the 50k pot offers more boost in the mids.

I agree about the .1 uf cap in series with the NFB loop.

Cheers Stephan

[phsyconoodler]

Wrong.You turn the pot off with the stock 25k pot and it does not scoup the mids.With the 50k pot the mids disappear when you turn it down.
  It makes a HUGE difference.Try it and see for yourself.
Those clips are rather easy to emulate.The 2203/4 circuit is easily manipulated to get a wide variety of tones.

Guys! You need to do one and stop thinking about the tone of a stock JCM800.The modded amp sounds so different than the stock amp that it's unreal.
  The muddy,doom metal tone is easy to get.You don't even need the extra gain stage to get there.
Easy peasey.

[new05002]

curious - what speakers favored for this kind of tone?

I have seen people run everything from GBs, to V30s to Fanes to Hot 100s. Seems quite varied. Swamp Things for some. I use Weber 65s and Weber Axis 12s.

[new05002]

pushing the slope resistor beyond 33k offers even more low mid range boost at the sacrifice of less overall control. I installed a variable slope resistor in an amp an going beyond 33k results in serious mid range kick. I dont think an FMV cant do a doomy tone but I dont think just pushing its value up to 50k is going to do a significant impact compared to adjusting the frequency response of gain stages.

[phsyconoodler]

you should hear the Zack Wilde EVM12L's for metal.

[new05002]

you should hear the Zack Wilde EVM12L's for metal.

I have consider trying either EVM but damn that price tag wards me off. Cost almost as much for an entire custom cab as would just the speaker cost of 4 of them.

[phsyconoodler]

Wizards,GT75's,G1265's,Mano War's  lots more will do it.

Go here and listen to the 'heavy' sound clips.http://www.eminence.com/guitar-bass/redcoat-series/

[new05002]

the eminence series is not bad but I have loved my Weber 65s and the Axis 12s a lot.

[Jack1962]

just my 2 cents here , the modified JCM 800 circuit the phsyconoodler is laying nails this doom metal tone I have done these mods myself to over a dozen amps , but I also suggest 1 more mod , use the low preamp stage from the JMP and you will be very pleased .

[rzenc]

you should hear the Zack Wilde EVM12L's for metal.

I built a 4x12" with EV BLS and it's killer for metal...very fast response and tons of bass...I have never heard something that comes close to it regarding metal tones...not a versatily cab, but is a winner for metal. I think even a 2x12" may get you where you want.

Hope this helps.
Best Regards

R.

[Ritchie200]

I certainly understand the nuances you are looking for.  However, if you listen to Sabbath's Master of Reality - there you are with a hint more low freq bump.  That's an old Laney Supergroup with the treble booster turned back, but with the same drive crushing the front end.  I know, because I did it.  I am familiar with the music so I don't think I'm missing anything that my computer speakers might be lacking in reproducing.  There's more than one way to skin a cat!

JMHO
Jim

[new05002]

for reference this is what he is after, Matamps here.

Sleep: Dopesmoker †remastered â€

Modded Matamp topology

HANK III Jammin Stoner Doom Electric/Green

Muff -> Model T (Superbass topology on steroids)

DOOM RIFF

[phsyconoodler]

Turn the tone control on the guitar down on any amp,even a triple rectifier and that tone is there.

[new05002]

a triple rec will never sound like a cranked Matamp GT120 or OrMat 120

Remember he is building from the ground up, not compromising using some random used piece of gear. He has every choice available to get a particular tone.

I gave him my amps schematic if he wished to build it but if you wanted a simpler route just go with the basic Matamp or Orange topology, adjust preamp gain to taste and run a PPIMV if you wanna go with a Master. EQ ca be FMV or Bax or something else but it all boils down to excessive preamp bass to get that kind of sound.

[phsyconoodler]

Ok I give up. A bad sounding amp is what he wants.Those clips sound plain awful.I that's what doo metal is all about I guess I'll leave it to you.

 Sounds like the old razor blade on the speaker cones to me.

[navdave]

Just clone a Sunn Model T and use a RAT dirt box.

Sunn Model T Doom Riffs

[new05002]

Just clone a Sunn Model T and use a RAT dirt box.

Sunn Model T Doom Riffs

that is 1 solution if the OP wants to achieve it without amp gain.

[gldtp99]

Ok I give up. A bad sounding amp is what he wants.Those clips sound plain awful.I that's what doo metal is all about I guess I'll leave it to you.

 Sounds like the old razor blade on the speaker cones to me.

This is funny !!!    ------ i can get these types of tones with a '70's Orange OR80 clone i built, with an old Rat pedal. i'm sure my real '74 Orange OR80 would do it, too--- but i've never tried it.
But i quickly got bored with that kind of tone and moved back to more traditional sounds.........................................gldtp99

[Cups]

new05002, very cool of you to share your schematic.

Hey guys chill! To each there own right? Not everybody wants the same sounds (thank god)

[Tone Junkie]

Navdave were as that is a good sound for that kind of music. With the amp distortion that was on the tracks they played before, it sounds to me like the speakers are coming apart. Your sound was still to clean even with the dirt box, Were as this is not really my kind of music if they were trying to emulate the sound from that song,
 that wasnt it.
I can see were a bass heavy front end, blocking distortion and extra gain stages comes into play to get it, the sound is very raw.
I recently helped a younger musician friend of mine set up sound for a show he was helping with, The first band had a modified orange amp and played that style of music it took a 1/2 hour to convince me that this was the sound they were after, and that there was nothing wrong with the amp (LOL). Thats when i realized I should leave the metal shows to the younger guys.
Bill