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Offline jeff

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Princeton/Deluxe
« on: September 03, 2012, 02:19:05 am »
I'm just wondering, Why does the Princeton Reverb use a 8000C.T. OT while the Deluxe Reverb uses a 6,600 C.T. OT?
 They're both 6V6 fixed bias amps
 both 410V
 I notice is one uses a 12AX7 cathodyne PI and the other uses a 12AT7 LTP PI. Do the different OTs have anything to do with the PIs?
 Or maybe because they use different rect tubes?
 I wouldn't think so, but why do these two amps use different value OTs for the same power tubes at the same voltages?
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 02:22:06 am by jeff »

Offline phsyconoodler

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Re: Princeton/Deluxe
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2012, 02:36:11 pm »
Well it's hard to really know 'why' Fender used different OT's but it has very little to do with the phase inverter differences.Maybe Fender anticipated that some guys would pop in 6L6's?Who knows?
  The nice thing about a 6.6k OT is that you can run either 4,8 or 16 ohm speaker loads with no issues with loading on the power tubes.
  I use 6.6k OT's on many amps when I swap tubes from 6V6 to 6L6 or even EL34's.They all are happy as a clam with the 6.6k load.
  Theoretically you can get more power from 6V6's with a slightly less load like the 6.6k vs the 8k and it may allow the amp to stay a bit cleaner longer,but it really depends on the size of the windings.
 I have built a few Princeton Reverbs with Deluxe OT's and haven't noticed any huge difference,maybe a bit more headroom but not a bunch.They sound a bit different however,not in a bad way at all.Just a bit fatter sounding.Hard to quantify without back to back blind testing.
 A bigger OT with 8k will sound bigger and fatter anyway.The mismatch when using extension speakers is the only thing,but Fender's thrive on it anyway,so no biggie either way.
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Offline jeff

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Re: Princeton/Deluxe
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2012, 03:33:47 pm »
OK thanks,

I was looking at replacement OTs. It lists the PR OT at 15W
Does 15W sound right for two 6V6s fixed bias @ 410V?
Also will a hotter preamp result in higher wattage output or just more distortion?
In other words what I'm wondering is, let's say a princeton, as is, will produce 15W. If you build a hotter preamp into it is there a chance of exceeding the 15Ws the OT can handle, or will the power section only put out what it puts out no matter how hot the pre is.
Know what I mean?
Is the 15W OT OK in a princeton because the circuit is designed not to exceed 15Ws but with a hotter pre there's a chance it might?

Can I simlpy build a PR power section and slap a high gain pre in it?

Offline proaudioguy

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Re: Princeton/Deluxe
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2012, 03:59:11 pm »
OK thanks,

I was looking at replacement OTs. It lists the PR OT at 15W
Does 15W sound right for two 6V6s fixed bias @ 410V?
Also will a hotter preamp result in higher wattage output or just more distortion?
In other words what I'm wondering is, let's say a princeton, as is, will produce 15W. If you build a hotter preamp into it is there a chance of exceeding the 15Ws the OT can handle, or will the power section only put out what it puts out no matter how hot the pre is.
Know what I mean?
Is the 15W OT OK in a princeton because the circuit is designed not to exceed 15Ws but with a hotter pre there's a chance it might?

Can I simlpy build a PR power section and slap a high gain pre in it?

Wow, a question I can answer!  If it's 15 watts max, a hotter output preamp will NOT make it more than 15 watts.  A hotter preamp will just make it more distorted.

The power supply, including, the phase inverter design, the tubes and the output transformer all come into play in regards to how much clean power you can get out of the power amp.

Offline jeff

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Re: Princeton/Deluxe
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2012, 04:46:02 pm »
OK, so the power section is the power section.

 I don't know all of the technical side of amp design. But here's what I see and I'm trying to do a little deduction.

The data sheets shows for a 6V6PP AB amp with 250V on plates and screens is 10W output. 285V plate and screens is 14W output. So it looks like the higher voltage the higher the output. The data sheets doesn't list the output for 410V on plates and screens but I imagine it's even higher.
 So the difference between 250V and 285V is 4Ws, but the difference between 285V and 410V only 1 extra watt? I'm just guessing, but I would think it'd be more?

Two questions:
What is the output for an AB PP6V6 at 410V?
Is a 15W transformer underrated?
I can't put my finger on it but something "feels" wrong here.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 04:53:19 pm by jeff »

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Princeton/Deluxe
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2012, 09:13:21 pm »
... Why does the Princeton Reverb use a 8000C.T. OT while the Deluxe Reverb uses a 6,600 C.T. OT?

...

 I notice is one uses a 12AX7 cathodyne PI and the other uses a 12AT7 LTP PI. Do the different OTs have anything to do with the PIs? ...

The Princeton is 1x channel, a 10" speaker, and somewhat lower wattage. The Deluxe Reverb is 2x channels, 12" speaker and more watts (but not a lot more).

The Deluxe is also biased a hair cooler according to the schematics, -35v vs the Princeton's -34v.

So the Deluxe is supposed to be the uprated 2x 6V6 model. If you want to keep the B+ essentially the same, but increase power output, you need to drop the primary impedance a little. Think Ohm's Law: voltage/resistance = current. If voltage stays the same, you drop resistance to increase current. Same voltage * more current = more power.

If you drop the primary impedance, the peak current of the output tubes increases. You might need to have more bias voltage to keep the tubes from redplating.

If you increase the bias voltage, you are also increasing the peak drive voltage the output tubes will need to reach full output power. With the same B+ voltage, a well-designed long-tail will make a bigger output signal to drive those output tubes. Look hard at the schematics for each amp; the Deluxe has 325v for the phase inverter supply node compared to the Princeton's 240v.

There's not a big difference in output power between the two amps, but Fender wanted to make sure there was enough difference to make the uprated model more attractive on the showroom floor. The 12" speaker also helps that, and the Deluxe's stock GZ34 helps keep the B+ sag down, further aiding max power output.

In my opinion, multiple changes were made to complement each other, with the ultimate goal of making the Deluxe the "big brother" while still having this amp smaller than the "professional models" using 2 or 4 6L6's.

Offline PRR

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Re: Princeton/Deluxe
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2012, 11:20:05 pm »
The 6V6 specsheet only shows self-bias conditions.

Also a 300V-350V MAX plate voltage.

This is from days when the speaker field-coil stole 100V of your B+, yet electrolyic caps could not stand over 450V. 450V at start-up, minus 50V rectifier sag on load, minus 100V for field-coil, gives around 300V for the power tube(s).

Also the negative bias rectifier had to be an additional tube.

Fender used PM speakers but a PT perhaps aimed at FC speaker radios. Turned out that good 1960 6V6 did not die at 400V. In self-bias, they either melt or require an absurd-high load to make the same power. Ah, but by then crystal rectifiers made a fixed negative bias cheaper. By biasing down to 25mA the Pdiss was acceptable at idle.

8K or 6K.... at the lower voltages (especially Screen) the 6V6 will not pull below 8K. But the 3/2 law curves and at 400V it will pull less than 8K. Also speaker impedance is more high than low.

Simple math suggests that 300V to 400V raises power like (400/300)^2 or about 1.8 times. Looks like 25 Watts. (No matter how strong the preamp/driver is.) Some rule-o-thumb suggests that at Full Roar the tubes will be over 12W Pdiss each. However good 6V6 seem to stand this well.

> Is the 15W OT OK

Try it. It will NOT burn-up. It will have higher distortion at low frequencies. That's common and sometimes desirable for guitar. If you find it too flubby, even with a large tight speaker, get a bigger iron.

> Well it's hard to really know 'why' Fender used different OT's

I strongly think it was "let's try this!!". He had these overvolt PTs. He had these good-quality OTs. He had buckets of 6V6. He put them together, and this combination played well, and strong, the cost fit his product line-up, tube life was not disappointing. So what if it violated good design principles and specsheet limits? It's only rock-n-roll.

Offline jeff

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Re: Princeton/Deluxe
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2012, 01:09:08 am »
The Deluxe is also biased a hair cooler according to the schematics, -35v vs the Princeton's -34v.

 I don't think this neseccarily means one is biased cooler, does it?
 I just chalked this up to the difference in tubes, from tube to tube, when the voltage chart was drawn up. Isn't it possible that one set of 6V6s would require -35V and another set of 6V6s require -34V yet each could be idling at the same dissipation? Or just the opposite, two different sets of 6V6s could have -35V and one could be biased hotter even though the bias voltage is the same.
This is why we have bias pots, right? So when we change tubes we might have to change the bias voltage to get the same dissapation.

What is the 3/2 law?
« Last Edit: September 04, 2012, 01:27:32 am by jeff »

Offline jeff

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Re: Princeton/Deluxe
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2012, 05:08:57 pm »
Please bear with me I'm trying to understand this.

The princeton is a 25W amp with a 15W OT? Does this mean the OT is only capable of producing 15W or will it produce 25W but with "bad" bass? Should I use a 25W speaker or a 15W speaker?

Maybe I don't understand how OTs are rated. Does a 15W OT mean it can only cleanly reproduce 15W but can handle 25W without burning up?
In other words, the rating is not when it'll fail physically but audio-ly?
« Last Edit: September 04, 2012, 05:15:46 pm by jeff »

Offline sluckey

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Re: Princeton/Deluxe
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2012, 05:18:02 pm »
The Princeton was advertised as a 12-15 watt amp, not a 25 watt amp.

http://ampwares.com/amplifiers/fender-blackface-princeton-reverb/
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Offline Willabe

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Re: Princeton/Deluxe
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2012, 05:27:18 pm »
The princeton is a 25W amp with a 15W OT? Does this mean the OT is only capable of producing 15W or will it produce 25W but with "bad" bass?

A full band pass OT has a rating for power output that will pass cleanly, high to low. It can not pass them cleanly anymore as you start to go past the power rating and you also start to lose the very high/low end. With a MI OT for a guitar amp we don't need the 2 extreme ends? Think about ohms law but with a PT. If you try to draw too much current from a PT the voltage will drop to make up the difference. Same kind of thing here. You can't have it all.

The old guitar amps were not built to be played on 10. So they didn't really have a problem, unless they were really under rated OT. Luckily a lot of the old amps did have OT that could take being over driven, but not all of them. There does come a point where you will kill/burn up the OT. Might take days might take years, but.....

Some guys like the sound/tone of an OT that's under rated and the distortion and compression they add. Some don't.


              Brad      :icon_biggrin:
« Last Edit: September 04, 2012, 05:33:31 pm by Willabe »

Offline PRR

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Re: Princeton/Deluxe
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2012, 11:44:17 pm »
> Princeton was advertised as a 12-15 watt amp

OK, but 2*6V6 can do 10W-14W at 285V yet most later Fender 2*6V6 amps run closer to 400V. The PT impedance seems to be inline with the zone recommended for 285V use. So how can that only be 12-15W?

If anybody has a 400V 2*6V6 amp, a sig-gen, a dummy-load, and a 'scope, I'd be real curious what it puts-out when the sine-wave is noticably bent.

Offline PRR

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Re: Princeton/Deluxe
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2012, 12:17:05 am »
> how OTs are rated.

Dartboard.

In audio, we usually specify a specific "small distortion" limit.

Let's say a given primary winding driven with 200 Volts at 50Hz shows "small distortion". Further tests (or theory) will show the same "small distortion" at these other frequencies and voltages:

100V at 25Hz
140V at 35Hz
200V at 50Hz
280V at 70Hz
400V at 100Hz
800V at 200Hz

Let us say this is a 4,000 ohm winding. 200V across 4,000 ohms is 10 Watts.

Use the volts/freq numbers above and compute the "Watts" at each frequency for this same small distortion:

2.5W at 25Hz
5W at 35Hz
10W at 50Hz
20W at 70Hz
40W at 100Hz
160W at 200Hz

Now: is this a two-watt or a hundred-watt part? Dart-board!

There's other limits.

An ideal transformer is 100% efficient. Real transformers are 90% efficient over some range of frequencies. Below that range, efficiency falls, you must put a lot of energy in to get a little energy out. We don't usually go there.

So you'd think to rate the power where the efficiency drops. But that's a poor plan. If the distortion is not allowed to be "gross", over 25%, then it turns out the small-signal frequency response goes much deeper than the high-power frequency response. A good hi-fi "15W" OT can do 1 Watt cleanly down below 20Hz, but at 40Hz anything over 5W is distorted.

In hi-fi, these full-power low-distotion ratings can be 30Hz to 60Hz (or more on the cheap stuff).

Hammond rates many of its non-Best OTs for 150Hz. (However most are also multiple-impedance. For the same winding and voltage/frequency limit, you can do more Watts at the lower impedances.)

The winding and core may support 160 Watts at 200Hz, but the corresponding 1,100 Volt peaks could puncture the insulation. So you can't keep shaving your lowest note and raising the power level.

Also be wary of extrapolating above 200Hz on common iron cores. Eddy currents push the flux out of the iron. The effective permeability falls at higher frequency; the core acts smaller.

Finally, it is possible to burn-up an OT, especially large ones. Recall the 90% efficiency. 9 watts out implies 1 watt of heat in the OT. 160W out implies 18W heat. The typical "10 Watt audio" OT can easily throw the 1 Watt of heat, but will get very hot dissipating 18W of heat.

If you take Hammond's huge 280W OT, probably "good" for 50Hz, and use it as a >200Hz midrange amp in a tri-amped PA system, you might think you could re-rate it for 4,000 Watts(!). No: the 4X voltage would break-through on the first loud note; if not, the sustained 400 Watts of heat would toast it.

SO: you can try a "15W" OT on an honest 25W amp, especially if the program is not bass-heavy or if you actually like colored bass. That's only a 1.3:1 over-voltage, well within safety margin. The 1.66 times more heat is usually insignificant: audio transformers do not run hot. And if your lowest note is 1.3 times higher frequency (~~half-octave) than the (usually not specified) design limit of the OT, you'll have the same distortion. Otherwise you may have 1.3 times the distortion, 5% to 6.5%, not a big deal.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2012, 12:31:18 am by PRR »

Offline jeff

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Re: Princeton/Deluxe
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2012, 02:55:33 pm »
 OK. Thanks, So I probally shouldn't misload a Princeton OT to reflect 2000K and throw it in a Twin, but it's good to know the technal side of how and why these things work. Thanks.

In the interest of further learning:
 Say you had two identical Princetons, but replaced one Princetons PTs with a lower voltage PT and eliminated the tube rect for SS. In the other used a higher voltage PT with the saggiest tube rect so the end result was a B+ of 410V on each. How would the output wattage compare between the two amps?
 The Princeton is listed as a 12-15W amp. I would imagine Fender would want to claim every watt possible.
 Is your estimate of 25W for two 6V6s@410V baised on using a SS rect with a power supply that won't sag?

I'm not sure exactally, technically, what "sag" is, but to me the term suggests as you push the amp harder and harder the supply voltage lowers reducing more and more the potential for higher output. Is that sorta right?

In other words, Is the potential for a PP 6V6@410V 25W, but only if that 410V supply is kept constant? Even though at idle our B+ is 410V, at full tilt it's lower? And in reality, as it tries to produce 25W it's output is being limited to 12-15W by the sagging power supply?
« Last Edit: September 05, 2012, 03:23:50 pm by jeff »

Offline phsyconoodler

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Re: Princeton/Deluxe
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2012, 05:17:36 pm »
The difference between the Princeton and the Deluxe is the cathodyne phase inverter.The long tailed pair PI of the Deluxe makes more output power.

 Cathodyne + 6V6's at 410v = 12 watts
 Long tailed pair + 6v6's at 410v = 22 watts.

That's the difference.

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Offline sluckey

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Re: Princeton/Deluxe
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2012, 05:23:28 pm »
No it's not. The difference (powerwise) is the DR has a bigger PT that can supply more current at the rated voltage than the little PT in the PR.
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Re: Princeton/Deluxe
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2012, 05:42:03 pm »
No it's not. The difference (powerwise) is the DR has a bigger PT that can supply more current at the rated voltage than the little PT in the PR.

PT is larger on D/DR as well. PT of PR is same as champ, bronco, etc.. OT of D/DR is 6.6K @ 20W; PR is 8K @ 15W. it's not just the OT, so, could we not assume that it's the combination of the PT and the OT that allow > power delivery to load?

--DL

Offline jeff

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Re: Princeton/Deluxe
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2012, 05:46:13 pm »
These last two posts bring up some good questions:

1) Is a cathodyne PI able to drive two 6V6s to full power?
2) What is the current draw of two 6V6s at full power? (PR PT's rated @ 81mA DR PTs rated @ 138mA)
3) If you swapped PTs and OTs would you endup with a 22W Princeton and a 12W Deluxe?

Edit:(DL, I must have been posting at the same time so I didn't catch that)
Aaahhh, Load.
(anyone else see beautiful irony in the fact that DummyLoad brought this up?......dummyload......anyone?....no?...is it just me?...)
« Last Edit: September 05, 2012, 06:07:14 pm by jeff »

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Princeton/Deluxe
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2012, 07:27:35 pm »
These last two posts bring up some good questions:

1) Is a cathodyne PI able to drive two 6V6s to full power?
2) What is the current draw of two 6V6s at full power? (PR PT's rated @ 81mA DR PTs rated @ 138mA)
3) If you swapped PTs and OTs would you endup with a 22W Princeton and a 12W Deluxe?

#3: No.

Uh... I'm pretty sure I just pointed out the various differences that lead to the Deluxe being claimed higher power. I did, however, omit the larger power transformer. It's all of these things, not just one mojo-bone.

If I take my Honda Civic and a Ferarri, and swap the transmissions between the two (pretend this can be done for a moment), which drives faster?

It's a dumb question, because neither now has parts that function as-intended with the rest of the system.

Your question is not dumb, but a bigger PT alone will not lead to more power unless the output tubes can swing a bigger voltage across the high primary load (to draw more current) or the primary load is made smaller while keeping the same output tube plate voltage swing (to draw more current).

What I'm saying is:
- The anticipated output tube plate voltage swing must be balanced against primary impedance to reach a desired current swing and resulting output power.
- The tubes must be able to control this planned amount of current while able to swing the required plate voltage.
- The OT primary impedance must be selected to suit this plan, and the power transformer must be able to supply the needed B+ voltage and current.
- The sum total of the power supply should be able to sustain a certain minimum B+ voltage at full current and output power, meaning the rectifier and power supply impedance should suit the rest of the plan.
- The phase inverter must be selected and designed to suit the available B+ and the needed amount of drive signal to push the output tubes to deliver the needed plate voltage swing/plate current.
- The preamp needs to be able to boost the guitar signal, perform any needed tone-shaping, add effects as necessary and still provide sufficient input signal to the phase inverter to allow it to drive the output tubes; the presence of feedback around the output section will alter the needed drive from the preamp.


ALL of these things have to be accounted for in a good design. Not to 8 decimal places, but reasonably considered because they all impact whether you hit your final goal.

Now imagine a balance beam, but the "beam" is really a disc balancing on a needle-like fulcrum. The disc has various rocks placed at different points on its surface; the exact point the fulcrum's needle-point is situated suits the effect of these various rocks to achieve balance.

This is your amp's circuit. You move/remove a rock, you change the balance. The disc tilts or falls over. If you change any one thing in your amp, you change the overall balance. Maybe you tilt the balance, or maybe it falls over. Almost everything impacts everything else to some degree.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2012, 01:31:25 am by HotBluePlates »

Offline jeff

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Re: Princeton/Deluxe
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2012, 09:43:13 pm »
I hear Ya HBP. My post is a little misleading. DummyLoad posted his while I was typing mine so by the last two I really meant the two before DummyLoads
The difference between the Princeton and the Deluxe is the cathodyne phase inverter.The long tailed pair PI of the Deluxe makes more output power.

 Cathodyne + 6V6's at 410v = 12 watts
 Long tailed pair + 6v6's at 410v = 22 watts.

That's the difference.


No it's not. The difference (powerwise) is the DR has a bigger PT that can supply more current at the rated voltage than the little PT in the PR.

Sorry, I guess I was thinking the power sections were the same(every thing post PI) and by switching both the PT and the OT it'd be more like switching drivers than the cars parts.
I was thinking of the PT and OT as the car and the preamp and PI as the driver.

Grandma's in a Honda, Mario Andretti's in a Fererri. Is the Fererri gonna win? Sure. But is it because the car or because the driver? One of the above theories is Mario wins because he's in a Fererri the other threory is he wins because he's Mario Andretti. .....but maybe Grandma's the little old lady from Pasedena???
That's all I meant.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2012, 10:11:21 pm by jeff »

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Princeton/Deluxe
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2012, 10:31:31 pm »
I see!

Fair enough. I'd recommend always looking at the phase inverter as the first element of the output section. So I typically view the phase inverter, output tubes and output transformer as one major amp element.

You could make the argument that the power supply is separate, and it probably does help to think of it as a separate functional block within the amp. However, power supply requirements and design are intimately intertwined with the output section of the amp. You have to know something about your desired output section and target output power to design the power supply to suit.

Then again, you have to think about available power transformers, power supply components and rectifier type when coming up with your requirements (especially B+ voltage and available current) for the output section.

Like a dog chasing it's tail, right? Well, based on your experience, you pick a reasonable starting point (or copy a known good plan) then investigate whether that will work for your proposed output section, then go back and forth refining the two until you arrive at a final plan. This might take many iterations. This is also why copying a known good plan, given the relatively-few available rectifier type and power transformer ratings, is a good approach.

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Re: Princeton/Deluxe
« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2012, 12:01:25 am »
> I would imagine Fender would want to claim every watt possible.

You would think.

Early Traynors were very aggressively rated.

But many "50W" Marshalls are known to do 70+ Watts clean.

Power numbers in the catalog should not overlap, and should be related to price. That sometimes leads to rounding-up or rounding-down.

> Is a cathodyne PI able to drive two 6V6s to full power?

Absolutely. (That's one reason 6V6 obsoleted 6F6.)

> What is the current draw of two 6V6s at full power?

Depends on B+ and load (more than tube).

___________________________________________________

> Honda Civic and a Ferarri, and swap the transmissions

It is worth mentioning that several wonderful fast Ferarris used a clutch from a farm-tractor. i.e. the transmission system is not always super-sexy.

I'd also suggest that the Hondas, while mostly motorcycle heritage, are wonderfully economic versions of exotic Ferarris. My old Accord is overhead cam, 4 valve per cylinder, 148HP in 2.2 Liters. Ferarri's 500 TR made a little more power in the same cubes, but not much; and well-driven Ferarris don't go 125,000 miles with as little attention as my Honda.

Down the street there is a lawn-tractor with the original putt-putt mower engine replaced by a Ford 302 V-8, driving the original mower transmission. Is this faster than the Mustang the engine came out of?

As you say, there is an issue with parts not functioning as-intended with the rest of the system.

__________________________________________

> Mario Andretti's in a Fererri. Is the Fererri gonna win?

No. Mario will hit Grandma, destroy his car, DNF. Grandma gets her walker out and crosses the finish line.

Offline jeff

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Re: Princeton/Deluxe
« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2012, 01:10:52 am »
OK
So Grandma's got enough guts to hit top speed.
Mario's not gonna redline it and blow the engine.
And a Ferarri will always be able to out run a Honda.

But it's a combo of tires, track conditions, quality of fuel + oil, and driver that will detirmine the time on the 1/4 mile.
......I forgot where I was going with this.....

Thanks for the read guys, I'm gonna go back through this one a couple more times.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2012, 01:20:20 am by jeff »

Offline DummyLoad

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Re: Princeton/Deluxe
« Reply #23 on: September 06, 2012, 03:41:52 am »
fenders, ferraris, and hondas... how did we get here?  :icon_biggrin:

--DL 

Offline phsyconoodler

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Re: Princeton/Deluxe
« Reply #24 on: September 06, 2012, 11:14:18 am »
Hmmm...I always thought the PI was the limiting factor in power for the two amps.If that's not the case then why not use the cathodyne on a Deluxe?
  The average PR PT is about 85ma and a Deluxe PT is 138ma.Both are biased at idle near the same.So I take it the Deluxe DRAWS more current at full song than the Princeton?
  Hmmmm...
I have built a few EL84 based amps with both PI's and the long tailed pair far outpowers the cathodyne every time.Hmmmm...
 Same PT's in both,same cathode bias.Out comes the dummy load and AC voltage meter to find out I guess.

 
Honey badger don't give a ****

Offline jeff

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Re: Princeton/Deluxe
« Reply #25 on: September 06, 2012, 12:08:48 pm »
Must have took a wrong turn in Alburquerque.

 I'm not sure which devilers a bigger singal, or if the cathodyne is a "limiting factor", but as far as Cathodyne VS LTP here's what I've gathered.

 Maybe someone else here knows better for a fact and can help educate me if I got some bad info, but I've always heard it said that it has to do with how the two PIs distort. Each can drive the power tubes hard enough but when driven hard enough that the PI itself starts to distort the LTP does much better than the cathodyne. I think it has to do with the in phase and out of phase singal of the cathodyne PI doing some funny things with respect to each other. Since one signal is taken from the plate and one from the cathode they don't distort in the same way and the "push" is getting a very different signal than the "pull". Where as when the LTP starts to distort the in and out of phase are more closely-equal but opposite when distorted, since both signals are taken from the plates. That's the way I heard it. That the "problem" with the cathodyne is not that it can't deviler enough signal, but when push comes to shove and the PI starts to distort, the cathodyne isn't as good at producing equal but opposite signals. Of course this also comes down to preamp signal power, the voltage on the PI, power amp circuit and the amp as a whole.
I don't want to perpetuate the myth(if this is a myth), so take it with some salt, but that's the impression I got of the difference between the two.
Let's see what the experts have to say first.

I'm really interested in your results.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2012, 12:52:54 pm by jeff »

Offline jeff

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Re: Princeton/Deluxe
« Reply #26 on: September 06, 2012, 03:15:32 pm »
I just thought about what you were saying a little more.

 The LTP has gain where as the Cathodyne(as it's used here) does not.
 
The cathodyne usually has a gain stage before it. So I think of a cathodyne as the two tubes working together, gain stage, then inverter. The DR goes from preamp to LTP but the PR goes from preamp to the inverter half of a cathodyne inverter. So the PR doesn't have the benefit of the PI adding gain.
 
So yes, in total, if all preamp voltages were equal I'd expect that an amp with DR topology would have more gain than one with PR topology at the 6V6s grids. 

I guess I didn't fully think about what you were saying. I wasn't thinking in terms of the DR having one more stage of gain than the PR. I was thinking in terms of LTP VS Cathodyne-does the cathodyne limit the amount of gain to less than the LTP-meaning-is a cathodyne incapable of fully driving the 6V6s- and not considering the amp as a whole. Instead or asking can a cathodyne PI can drive the 6V6s to full output my question should have been can the PR preamp and PI drive it's 6V6s to full power. I don't know.

So as HBP says we must consider the amp as a whole and the differences between them both. We have one amp that has both more gain going to the power tubes and a different load. I don't think, now, it's as simple as pinpionting one think and saying "that's" it.  I need to take a step back and look at the whole picture. I just got too hyperfocused.

Just a thought. (I think I just felt my mind expanding)
« Last Edit: September 06, 2012, 04:42:33 pm by jeff »

Offline DummyLoad

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Re: Princeton/Deluxe
« Reply #27 on: September 06, 2012, 04:43:00 pm »
think of it as one system; one bottle. the LTP requires two triodes - the cathodyne only one. however with the cathodyne plan, the unused triode is now a gain stage, and we can make more gain with grounded cathode stage than we can with a LTP (GC AV is~50, LTP AV is ~25). so, overall the same bottle yields more gain as a gain stage/cathodyne than the same bottle used as a LTP.

--DL

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Princeton/Deluxe
« Reply #28 on: September 06, 2012, 09:02:19 pm »
Hmmm...I always thought the PI was the limiting factor in power for the two amps.If that's not the case then why not use the cathodyne on a Deluxe?
  The average PR PT is about 85ma and a Deluxe PT is 138ma.Both are biased at idle near the same.So I take it the Deluxe DRAWS more current at full song than the Princeton?

Well, Jeff did the work for us.

Both amps have about the same B+, but the load is smaller on the Deluxe. Same voltage, smaller impedance/resistance = more current. More current times same voltage = more power.

So that's the real key.

I have built a few EL84 based amps with both PI's and the long tailed pair far outpowers the cathodyne every time.Hmmmm...
 Same PT's in both,same cathode bias.

It's hard to say why.

Could be the phase inverter's B+ node and required drive signal for the output tubes made the cathodeyne incapable of providing all the signal swing needed.

Remember, the cathodyne has to create two peak output signals while still leaving enough voltage across the tube. Best to assume the cathodyne can deliver a peak output to one side of the output section of B+/4 or at best B+/3. In the long tail, each triode only has to deliver one peak output voltage, but has to waste enough voltage across the tail resistor for good balance. Either could be designed sub-optimally in a given amp, so it really boils down to the specifics of how each was applied in the amp in question.

Notice also that some very big amps (like the SVT) use a cathodyne phase splitter, and they don't have a problem making a lot of power. It's V1b in the linked schematic. Of course, there's additional stuff between the phase inverter and the output tubes to ensure the output section delivers as intended.

So my only argument here is that while we can conclude that the cathodyne is most-often used in lower-powered amps, we should assume that lower power is due solely to the choice of phase inverter. Just like fixed-bias is most-often used in class AB amps, but we shouldn't assume a cathode-biased amp is always running class A.

Out comes the dummy load and AC voltage meter to find out I guess.

Now that's a great idea! It's all B.S. until you see what happens in real life. We just have to know the conditions each inverter is working under to see what causes any differing power output measured.

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Princeton/Deluxe
« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2012, 09:14:34 pm »
... as far as Cathodyne VS LTP here's what I've gathered.

... when ... the PI itself starts to distort the LTP does much better than the cathodyne. I think it has to do with the in phase and out of phase singal of the cathodyne PI doing some funny things with respect to each other. ...

You're basically right.

The long-tails outputs have nearly-same output impedances. The cathodyne has a higher impedance output (plate) and a lower-impedance output (cathode).

When the output tubes are driven to draw grid current, the cathode output handles this better than the plate output. That is, the lower-impedance output maintains its signal while the higher-impedance output gets loaded-down. This can lead to the plate output signal being constrained while the cathode output is not.

The output tubes draw grid current when you push them to distortion and the grid's voltage momentarily approaches 0v or goes positive. So this situation is more about what's happening with the output tubes.

The long-tail has two relatively high-impedance outputs. Both will get clobbered basically the same way, so both halves of the output section will get similarly-loaded down drive signals.

FWIW, there is a modification of the cathodyne inverter called a "Kappler inverter" which provides low-impedance drive signals to both outputs. You won't see that inverter in a guitar amp outside of homebrew amps. I don't know if it's worthwile to mess with in a guitar amp, because I've never tried it.

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Princeton/Deluxe
« Reply #30 on: September 06, 2012, 09:52:06 pm »
The LTP has gain where as the Cathodyne(as it's used here) does not.
 
The cathodyne usually has a gain stage before it. So I think of a cathodyne as the two tubes working together, gain stage, then inverter. The DR goes from preamp to LTP but the PR goes from preamp to the inverter half of a cathodyne inverter. So the PR doesn't have the benefit of the PI adding gain.
 
So yes, in total, if all preamp voltages were equal I'd expect that an amp with DR topology would have more gain than one with PR topology at the 6V6s grids. 

I guess I didn't fully think about what you were saying. I wasn't thinking in terms of the DR having one more stage of gain than the PR.

Yes.

If you trace just the reverb channels of both amps, the Deluxe has Gain->Gain->Reverb->Gain->Phase Inverter. The Princeton has Gain->Gain->Reverb->Phase Inverter.

However, this perspective requires you buy in to my philosophy on the cathodyne, and the way DL explained it: that the triode ahead of the cathodyne should be considered part of the inverter, as it corrects the gain shortfall in the inverter as compared to the long-tail.

Furthering this way of looking at this inverter, in this amp:
Notice where the feedback loop goes. In the Deluxe, it wraps around the OT and output tubes and back to the bottom of the long-tail's "tail". In the Princeton, it wraps around the OT, output tubes and back to the bottom of the gain stage ahead of the cathodyne.

The feedback normalizes the operation of the output section, and can define the needed input signal to drive the amp to full output power. So I'm arguing the Princeton's feedback loop shows we should consider the inverter pre-gain stage as the actual "phase inverter input".

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Princeton/Deluxe
« Reply #31 on: September 06, 2012, 09:53:18 pm »
The Deluxe is also biased a hair cooler according to the schematics, -35v vs the Princeton's -34v.

 I don't think this neseccarily means one is biased cooler, does it?
 I just chalked this up to the difference in tubes, from tube to tube, when the voltage chart was drawn up. Isn't it possible that one set of 6V6s would require -35V and another set of 6V6s require -34V yet each could be idling at the same dissipation?

History Lesson:
I wasn't around when you bought tubes at the drug store, but folks that were have told me that in that era you bought a new tube, plugged it in the socket and expected your amp (or radio or TV or...) to work as-is. Guys who played music during this time have said they plugged new tubes in their amps without biasing and assumed all was well. If they were technical, they might have looked in the back to make sure the tubes weren't glowing red.

Notice also that while you can find a few amps that allowed for measuring tube current, most did not, and a great many fixed-bias amps had no provision for adjusting the bias.

Fixed-bias voltage was adjusted (if at all) when a tech installed new tubes. He'd most likely not measure tube current but refer to the schematic's listed bias voltage, and tweak the trim pot to provide that voltage at the output tube grids. If he was being very careful, he might then operate the amp with a dummy load at near full power and see if the output tubes redplated. If they did, tweak the pot for a little more bias voltage until the redplating stopped.

The bias voltage was determined by the amp's designer to provide a selected operating point with the desired output power and design level of (probably low) distortion. It assumed all tubes of a given type are essentially the same.

For this reason, old books like Tomer's Getting the Most Out of Vacuum Tubes (1960) assert that fixed-bias is less safe than cathode bias because it does not account for tube variations and automatically self-correct the way cathode bias does. It's worth noting Tomer worked for a tube manufacturer.

The obsession with biasing with regard to current draw seems to originate in the 90's. The timing coincides with reduced availability of American- and European-made tubes, and the increasing prevalence of imported tubes which came from Russia. These are actually different, Russian tube types but marked with American tube numbers. Some of these closely mirror American tube type characteristics, and some don't.

I suspect that a rise of redplating and failures due to the differences in power ratings and tube characteristics led techs to seek a method of reducing the number of returned repairs due to tube failures. One might try to find a method of figuring a safe idle current limit, even though the resulting bias could deviate from the designer's intent and change the nature of the output section. An alternative explanation is that increased tube characteristic variations due to poorer quality control prompted techs to attempt to correct for tube variation in a way they hadn't needed to in the past.

And bias isn't just about idle current, but also dictates the size of the drive signal needed from earlier stages of the amp to push the output section to full output power.

So hopefully you see the bias voltage was primarily a design consideration, and has mutated into something different in the modern day.

Note also that other tube-users (especially tube radio restorers) don't stress over idle current at all, and don't understand why guitarists are so fixated on the issue.

Offline jeff

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Re: Princeton/Deluxe
« Reply #32 on: September 06, 2012, 11:32:53 pm »
This makes sense to me. But it also leads me back to the tail chasing frustration of trying to understand baising an amp.

What I started out believing(which is what I think you're saying here) is that the bias is about setting up the operating point of the tube. When I tried to understand further I kept hitting the 70% rule, which I've been using but never liked or fully accepted as a complete answer. Every time I tried to get a better explination I'd wind up with, just bias it at 70% and don't worry about it. I've always believed that biasing(aside from keeping your tubes from melting) has nothing to do with 70% of the tubes max. dissapation rating, and everything to do with the tubes operating point.

I'm willing to buy 70% will keep you safe, I'm willing to buy a well designed amp will be designed to run the tubes at 70% to get the most power it can without hurting the tubes, but I never believed that's the way to properly bias an amp.

This is my main argument and I never got a satisfing responce to it.

 Say you had an amp that was built when all they had available 6L6s. 19W 6L6s. And this amp was designed to run at 70% for max power and max life. And everything in it(PT, OT,etc) was designed around that.

 Now, say you want to retube it. You get yourself a pair of 6L6CG. A 30W tube. It's got the same characteristis as a 6L6 but the only difference it's max diss is 30W vs the 19W tube the amp was designed for. If you throw those in and bias for 70% of 30W instead of 70% of 19W,... what the amp was designed for... I don't think that the amp is properly biased, right?
 In other words imagine all tubes were perfect text book spec. Then I would imagine that if you relpaced a pair of 6L6s with a pair of 6L6GCs you WOULD want the EXACT SAME bias voltage. Even if that means you're biasing at 13.3W(70% of 19W but less than 50% of 30W)

So I think see what you're saying about bias and idle current. But what it brings up is me questioning the 70% rule. Changing the bias voltage to change the idle current to reach 70% of 30W just because it's 70% of what is essencially the same tube as the 19W version but with a higher rating, throws off the balance of the ciruit, right? To me that doesn't sound like a proper way to bias an amp.

It might just so happen to be 70% on most amps is what an amp is designed for and that's why we bias to 70%, but that's not really what bias is about, right?

This is a whole nother can of worms but if you're saying what I think you're saying that bias isn't just about idle current than I agree. This really makes me want to pick up the trail where I left off and settled for 70% of max and learn how to bias an amp. Thanks HBP your post has brought up what I've always felt, I'm missing something here, and I need to keep learning.
But that's another topic.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2012, 12:12:55 am by jeff »

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Princeton/Deluxe
« Reply #33 on: September 07, 2012, 12:35:50 am »
Before anyone came up with the "70% Rule" there was Gerald Weber's recommendation.

To be fair, Weber stated in at least one of his books, if not in other print, that people kept asking for a specific target current when biasing. He goes on to say that no one number suits all amps, but he figured 35mA was likely to be safe, so that's the number he began providing.

.035A * 450v = 15.75w

15.75w/19w = ~83%

So the highest common B+ voltage for many 6L6 amps could probably work okay with 19w 6L6's using his guideline. But it's also 63% for a 25w tube, and ~53% for a 30w tube. Now if you have a 12w 6V6, and the same supply voltage, you're up to 131%. You'll really bias these in a 400v+ amp closer to the low 20mA range.

But since he was concurrently pitching the idea of biasing by tube current, he painted himself in a corner. For years after he first printed "35mA" and before folks online came up with the "70% Rule" everyone seemed to think 35 was the magic number for tone.

Hopefully you'll see why if we talk about a narrow-scope question ("how do I calculate a cathode resistor value?") I'm happy to simplify as much as possible/practical. But when the question is broad ("does the Deluxe have more output power than the Princeton because of the different inverter?") or subject to misinterpretation, I tend to tap-dance around to highlight all the other considerations. My intent is to help you understand the broad issues while narrowing your question to something that easier to digest.

If we really want to get into "what's the right bias?" we necessarily have to dive into how to design an output stage, so that you see why a given bias voltage was selected as the operating point.

But at the same time, know that in my own fixed-bias amps, I typically set the bias once then plug-n-play any new output tubes without a rebias. I only look to see that no new tube is redplating with the existing bias. The exception is my Standel, because there is provision to balance the bias between two non-matched tubes. I adjust the overall bias to a range that is sure to not result in redplating, then balance the current between the two tubes. Ultimately, this really ensures the maximum clean output power.

Offline phsyconoodler

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Re: Princeton/Deluxe
« Reply #34 on: September 07, 2012, 12:18:42 pm »
Ok here's another Gerald Weber bias dilema.
 He says it's ok to bias a Deluxe Reverb at 35ma with 6v6's because it draws down the plate voltage to more acceptable levels for the average 6v6.
  I have tried it in Deluxe's and the tone is to die for.No tube failures yet.
So here's my interpretation,right or wrong.
 Voltage = pressure and current = volume
So,if you lower the pressure you can use more flow or current.
 Exploding tubes all over the place? Maybe,maybe not.
I know the laymans explanation of current and voltage related to water pressure and flow is good for learning,but is it feasible with tubes?
  It seems to me logically,if you lower the pressure,current or flow can be increased.A garden hose as an example: a mediocre garden hose works fine at full flow but springs a leak when the spray nozzle is closed.
  The pressure remains constant in this case.
Please feel free to correct me and any mis-information.
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Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Princeton/Deluxe
« Reply #35 on: September 07, 2012, 01:37:36 pm »
Ok here's another Gerald Weber bias dilema.
 He says it's ok to bias a Deluxe Reverb at 35ma with 6v6's because it draws down the plate voltage to more acceptable levels for the average 6v6.
  I have tried it in Deluxe's and the tone is to die for.No tube failures yet.

So this is fair, if you monitor both plate voltage and plate current to ensure nothing will be damaged. It is true that with many amps (especially using tube rectifiers and smallish power transformers) that as you increase the current draw, B+ voltage will sag downward due to power supply impedance.

Note that B+ will sag even more when the amp is making its maximum power, so if you carry this too far, you will reduce the actual maximum output power. That's because even with the increased current, you have dragged the B+ voltage down and reduced the range of voltage swing you can get. Again, it depends on the specifics of the amp in question whether this will result in any noticeable maximum power loss.

So here's my interpretation,right or wrong.
 Voltage = pressure and current = volume
...
I know the laymans explanation of current and voltage related to water pressure and flow is good for learning,but is it feasible with tubes?

Close enough for rock n roll. But call current "gallons per minutes" or "rate of flow".

A coulomb is more exactly equivalent to water volume. A coulomb is an exact quantity of electrons. One ampere is defined as a current that consists of the movement of one coulomb of electrons past a point in one second. So coulombs = gallons, and amperes = gallons per minute.

I know the laymans explanation of current and voltage related to water pressure and flow is good for learning,but is it feasible with tubes?

Sure.

But back to bias, what happens when you have an amp with 500v B+? Or 250v B+? Now the ideal current numbers change dramatically.

What about if you have a solid-state rectifier and an oversize power transformer with lots of current capacity and little winding resistance? Now your B+ doesn't sag the way it might with the Deluxe Reverb.

We also have to consider if given the tubes' mode of operation, if we'll run into any of the tubes' limits. Max dissipation? Peak cathode current? Max plate voltage? The tube won't die if you exceed these by a little, but if you start exceeding any by a lot, or if you exceed more than one maximum at the same time, you're asking for early tube failure.

And really, what did you gain? Meaning, what did you gain that couldn't be done another way?

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Princeton/Deluxe
« Reply #36 on: September 07, 2012, 01:37:55 pm »
He says it's ok to bias a Deluxe Reverb at 35ma with 6v6's because it draws down the plate voltage to more acceptable levels for the average 6v6.
  I have tried it in Deluxe's and the tone is to die for.No tube failures yet.

I came back to this because what actually happened?

You biased for more current. To do this, you lowered bias voltage. When you lower the bias voltage, the phase inverter can now drive the output tubes into distortion with a smaller input signal than with "proper" bias.

But a lot of us here are building an amp for ourselves.

We could select lower B+ to start with. We could bias the tubes to draw much more current at idle. Old 5881/6L6GB with 300v B+ could be set to idle at 80mA or more. Would could load the output tubes with a OT primary impedance that delivers maximum power, or we could select an impedance that delivers less power but more 3rd harmonic distortion. If the tubes are matched and the phase inverter outputs are balanced and the OT is balanced, then 2nd harmonic is canceled in the output stage anyway with push-pull operation.

So we can set the conditions for more distortion and lesser output power and never need to stress the tubes. But it's also fair to say that if you watch what you're doing and understand the tradeoffs and risks, you can bias a tube beyond published limits. You simply expect that tube life may be reduced. Or not. Blackface and later Champs typically run the 6V6 well over published dissipation limits, but they hold up, especially with American production 6V6's. But you could run the amp in a way that can swallow anything with a 6V6 label and not have premature failures.

Also worth noting:
I don't know if people get very unlucky or they severely abuse their tubes, but since ~1993 and my first tube amp, I have had exactly 1 tube failure. It was an internal plate to heater short (pin 3 to pin 2) on a 6L6GC. I've never had tubes so worn I couldn't use them (although some power tubes that test like-new might deliver more clean watts of output power than the worn tubes). I've never had a single preamp tube that I've tossed for any reason other than microphonics, though some might exhibit a little more measure gain than others.

Offline phsyconoodler

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Re: Princeton/Deluxe
« Reply #37 on: September 07, 2012, 02:49:25 pm »
Well because I work as a repair tech,I see lots of tube failures.Power tubes shorted,preamps just plain dead,no real reason why.Some cracked and lost vacuum.
  But....never one tube in all the dead ones with a failed filament.Not one.

And I've had heater voltages all over the map from 5.5 to 7.2 .

 Tubes that were just plain tired and some microphonic and others noisy and staticy and others popping.
Lots of shorted 6L6's and EL34's,even new ones right out of the box.

 One other thing that is interesting is that new production generally sound as good as NOS to me.Some NOS were really good but some new ones were really good too.
  Some Psvane made in China tubes that were unreal good.Different than Shugangs.


 Funny animals,tubes.
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Offline jeff

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Re: Princeton/Deluxe
« Reply #38 on: September 07, 2012, 07:54:44 pm »
Have you tested output of your two amps yet to the A/B two inverters?
I'm real curious.

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Re: Princeton/Deluxe
« Reply #39 on: September 07, 2012, 10:47:29 pm »
> my philosophy ... and the way DL explained it: that the triode ahead of the cathodyne should be considered part of the inverter

"PI" is not insightful.

Think "DRIVER".

TO drive a push-pull output stage, we need two (and a half) things:

1) GAIN from the 1V-3V max out of preamp to the 10V-30V needed for power stage grids
1a) Gain to cover NFB

2) TWO OUTPUTS of opposite polarity

There's no way to do all this in a single triode.

You can do a triode and a driver transformer, but that's expensive (and not NFB-friendly).

You can use a gain-stage to drive one power tube, and another gain-stage diddled-down to gain-of-one inverting to drive the other power tube; the ParaPhase family, simple and self-correcting.

The Cathodyne was a killer invention, coupled with 'new' (late 1930s) more-sensitive power tubes like 6V6 and 6L6. However it lacks gain, so it "always" used with another tube in front. This can even be a lower-current higher-gain tube, since the cathodyne has huge input impedance.

There are some strange-tricks possible with screen-grid tubes which give antiphase outputs with gain. Symmetry and max output are usually poor. Never seen it done as a power-amp driver.

The long-tail has lower max output and lower gain than the same twin-tube, but very symmetric *clipping* action. (The Cathodyne is symmetric un-loaded, but power tube grid current makes it go wacky.)

__________________________________________

> biasing with regard to current draw seems to originate in the 90's

It goes with OVER-volting. In self-bias, plate voltage is limited by idle dissipation and reasonable load impedances. Fix-bias allows higher plate voltage while setting a low idle dissipation. Most medium fix-bias amps didn't take plate voltage a lot higher than a self-bias amp. Idle current was not real critical. 25,000 Watt audio amps in radio stations did set idle current very carefully.

> biasing with regard to current draw

Fix-bias P.A. amps, also some Fisher and Dyna hi-fi amps, had points to measure power tube cathode current. This often involved 10 ohm resistors with straps to bypass the resistors in normal operation. 10 ohms allowed reading ~~100mA current zone with the usual 1.5V lowest scale on common meters (no 199mV DVMs). Many Williamsons had shorting phone-jacks where you would plug in a 100mA current meter. The biggest Dynaco had a VU meter which could be switched to the cathode return so you could trim bias voltage.

http://www.dvq.com/hifi/images/dyna_mk6.pdf (3MB PDF file, page 12; 7.8r and 2K9 + VU meter)

__________________________________________

> the 70% rule, which I've been using but never liked or fully accepted

Suck it up and accept it.

The effect on max-power is insignificant. (A way-high idle current hurts max-power, but in most commercial-like amps the tubes would be red-plating before that; it can be an issue in flea-watt toy amps.)

Best idle economy and life is zero idle current.

But that sounds awful on small sounds.

Best overall sound quality is very high idle current. In most commercial-like amps the tubes would be red-plating. Indeed I could hear some small improvement when my Fisher was biased to a dull glow. Didn't dare to leave it there.

SO: way-too-low sounds bad. Way-too-high sounds best. There is a w_i_d_e range between where sound quality (and max-power) hardly changes. In many amps, 50% Pdiss to 99% Pdiss is nearly all the same. But bias drifts with wall-voltage. Aiming at 50% and drifting low may get rough. Aiming at 99% and drifting high cooks tubes. So split the difference, 74%, BUT lean low because cooked-tubes is worse than rough soft sounds. Thus 70%.

FWIW: the well-designed Dyna VI seems to aim at 77% safe Pdiss, BUT there's a front-panel meter so you can keep an eye on it. And note that it has no way to measure each of the four tubes individually.


Offline jeff

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Re: Princeton/Deluxe
« Reply #40 on: September 08, 2012, 04:14:37 am »
If you trace just the reverb channels of both amps, the Deluxe has Gain->Gain->Reverb->Gain->Phase Inverter. The Princeton has Gain->Gain->Reverb->Phase Inverter.

However, this perspective requires you buy in to my philosophy on the cathodyne, and the way DL explained it: that the triode ahead of the cathodyne should be considered part of the inverter, as it corrects the gain shortfall in the inverter as compared to the long-tail.
HBP, I forgot to mention it because I got a little side tracked, but I understand what you're saying and why that stage should be considered the first stage of the PI and not the last stage of the preamp. I agree with that, it makes more sense that way.

 Jeff
« Last Edit: September 08, 2012, 04:25:32 am by jeff »

Offline mresistor

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Re: Princeton/Deluxe
« Reply #41 on: September 08, 2012, 06:45:21 am »

  But....never one tube in all the dead ones with a failed filament.Not one.

Funny animals,tubes.

I'd never seen a filament failure either, until a month or so ago. I put a brand new EH6V6 in a Vibro Champ, checked bias, played it for
about an hour and shut it off. Turned it on next day and nothing. After a bit of inspecting, pulled the 6V6 and found the filaments open.
One deader-than-a-doornail tube.

Offline jeff

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Re: Princeton/Deluxe
« Reply #42 on: September 08, 2012, 02:47:59 pm »
"> the 70% rule, which I've been using but never liked or fully accepted

Suck it up and accept it.
"

OK. I realize I'm being a little nurotic about this. This actually made me laugh out loud when I read it because it made me realize how crazy I've been driving my self(and probally you guys).
 Sorry, I get like this every once in a while. I get so focused on trying to find one specific number/formula that I overlook the fact, as you say, "There is a w_i_d_e range between where sound quality (and max-power) hardly changes"

I guess I've always had something inside me that wants to "scientifically prove which flavor of icecream is the best", when the question itself doesn't make sense. All the flavors are good and they all cool you off.
(After careful analysis it has been shown, without a shadow of a doubt, that the chemical compounds within the molecular structure of vanilla, along with the naturally occuring lactose within the cows milk, combine with the chemical receptors of the human taste bud to allow for the most pleasurable icecream consuming experience. There is, through the combination of these compounds unique to vanilla, a responce triggered deep within the human brain resulting in a 10% increase in the release of endorphines and more efficent control of the bodys temperature regulating mechanisms as compared to other flavors. Through a series of carefully controlled clinical experiments in the lab, it has been scientifically proven, test after test, with undeniable, repeatable results, that vanilla is by far the most superior flavor of any bovine-lactate based frozen product. Furthermore, to this end, we should all be eating vanilla icecream---- NO! it's icecream, it taste good-you eat it)

 It's stupid, but I guess what triggered this in my mind was that the DR is biased hotter than the PR. If they're both PP 6V6 amps operating with the same voltage and one is biased hotter than the other then they can't both be biased at 70%. So I was wondering if the difference had more to do with the DR being biased to work best with a 6,600 load and the PR being biased to work best with a 8,000 load?

 I need to stop thinking that there is a magic number. I have made many great sounding amps with the help of this forum, none of which has ever failed. So thanks for the help, thanks for the sanity check, and thanks for putting up with my crazy questions.

Jeff
« Last Edit: September 08, 2012, 03:51:04 pm by jeff »

Offline PRR

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Re: Princeton/Deluxe
« Reply #43 on: September 08, 2012, 09:20:09 pm »
> proven, test after test, with undeniable, repeatable results, that vanilla is by far the most superior

Look at the powerful effects of Chocolate. Why would you fool with simple Vanilla when Chocolate is available?

Offline Willabe

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Re: Princeton/Deluxe
« Reply #44 on: September 08, 2012, 09:56:50 pm »
Look at the powerful effects of Chocolate. Why would you fool with simple Vanilla when Chocolate is available?


        :laugh:

Offline darryl

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Re: Princeton/Deluxe
« Reply #45 on: September 08, 2012, 10:26:53 pm »
Look at the powerful effects of Chocolate. Why would you fool with simple Vanilla when Chocolate is available?

So, If I understand this correctly . . . A Princeton is vanilla, but a Deluxe is chocolate.   :w2:

Offline DummyLoad

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Re: Princeton/Deluxe
« Reply #46 on: September 08, 2012, 11:44:27 pm »
mint chocolate chip > *

Offline jeff

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Re: Princeton/Deluxe
« Reply #47 on: September 09, 2012, 09:34:04 pm »
So, If I understand this correctly . . . A Princeton is vanilla, but a Deluxe is chocolate.   :w2:
Nah. I was just laughing at myself because from time to time I get myself worked up trying to find a "golden number"
Sometimes I just gotta stop and say "what the heck am I doin'" and laugh. I figure if I can make 'em laugh people won't mind so much that I'm crazy.
Next time I go loco I'll just pick up my guitar and play and think wow this sounds great, why am I overthinking this?

« Last Edit: September 11, 2012, 12:22:06 am by jeff »

 


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