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Offline SleepLess

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5F4 issue...
« on: October 10, 2012, 07:20:10 am »
Yep... One more!

This 5F4 was done back in April and has just returned to me because of very low volume. When I mean low I mean that even on 12 it sounds like a church mouse compared to a Champ... The power tubes are brand new from the store, I also swapped each preamp tube with a known-to-work one and the rectifier (normally a 5U4GB) was replaced by a GZ34 just for the test: still low volume whatever the tube. I have also reflowed most of the solder joints.

Here's my voltage chart. I have a very loud noise on V3 pin 7 as soon as I touch the pin with my red MM probe...:

 Tube
Pin            V1          V2         V3          V4         V5         V6           
1             141         179       218           0           0           0       
2               0            0          0           3.38AC   3.38AC   426         
3             2.2         1.47        1.7         414        414         0       
4            3.38AC    3.38AC   3.38AC      417        417      352AC                                                 
5            3.38AC    3.38AC   3.38AC      -41        -41         0                                               
6            136         285       276           -41        -41      351AC     
7              0           178        23          3.38AC   3.38AC     0     
8             2.2         178        73            0            0        424       

Two pics:






Thanks for letting me know what you think about all this!!!

Offline punkykatt

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Re: 5F4 issue...
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2012, 11:28:18 am »
Check the coupling cap between pin 1 and pin 7 on valve 3.  There should be no DC voltage on pin 7

Offline SleepLess

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Re: 5F4 issue...
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2012, 11:47:51 am »
I have changed it (the 0.02uF cap you mentioned, the one that is between pin 1 and pin 7 of V3) for another one that's known to work. I still get 23V on pin 7 and 74V on pin 8 of V3. I don't know if that's normal.

The amp now works (had a missing underboard connection that I found with my MM continuity tester). The only thing now is that each time I hit a true bypass pedal (such as my reverb) the amp emits a loud pop, whether I turn it ON or OFF. This pop doesn't occur with non true-bypass pedals such as my fuzz or treble booster or clean boost... I have never experienced such a loud pop with an amp, and I have built and played tens of other tweed amps. Is there something I can do to prevent this loud pop??? The guy who owns it only has true-bypass pedals in his rig and that will make the amp hardly usable with all those pops he's gonna have...

Thanks!

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: 5F4 issue...
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2012, 08:00:21 pm »
This 5F4 was done back in April and has just returned to me because of very low volume. When I mean low I mean that even on 12 it sounds like a church mouse compared to a Champ...

I was gonna bet he had the speakers plugged into the wrong speaker jack. If you plug into the extension speaker jack with nothing plugged into the regular speaker jack, it will exhibit the same type of problem. That's because the stock wiring is to have a shorting jack for the main speaker jack, and that tends to short the signal away from your speakers (in the wrong, extension speaker jack), and give low volume.

But it sounds like you had a different issue.
Check the coupling cap between pin 1 and pin 7 on valve 3.  There should be no DC voltage on pin 7

With stock wiring, pin 7 is the grid of the split-load inverter. It will be some voltage less than the cathode, but you won't get an accurate reading with most meters because of the load they present. So I'd call SleepLess' readings believable for proper voltages.

I have a very loud noise on V3 pin 7 as soon as I touch the pin with my red MM probe...

Normal. You should get a pop when you touch your meter lead to the output tube plates. You'll get a louder pop when you touch the output tube grids, and louder still for every successive stage as you work back towards the input jack. The d.c. voltage disturbance that you meter momentarily causes is being amplified more and more by the amp as you get further from the speaker.

The only thing now is that each time I hit a true bypass pedal (such as my reverb) the amp emits a loud pop, whether I turn it ON or OFF. This pop doesn't occur with non true-bypass pedals such as my fuzz or treble booster or clean boost...

That is also probably typical.

I get the same kind of pop sometimes with my Fulltone pedals. They actually have a sticker inside the box (maybe on the bottom of the pedal too) that says the pops are due to static discharge from the switch. The cure, according to Fulltone, is to activate the switch several times, then use the pedal. Usually does the trick for me.

Offline SleepLess

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Re: 5F4 issue...
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2012, 11:47:13 pm »
The only thing now is that each time I hit a true bypass pedal (such as my reverb) the amp emits a loud pop, whether I turn it ON or OFF. This pop doesn't occur with non true-bypass pedals such as my fuzz or treble booster or clean boost...

That is also probably typical.

I get the same kind of pop sometimes with my Fulltone pedals. They actually have a sticker inside the box (maybe on the bottom of the pedal too) that says the pops are due to static discharge from the switch. The cure, according to Fulltone, is to activate the switch several times, then use the pedal. Usually does the trick for me.

OK... So can I safely send the amp back and say "if the amp emits a loud pop when you engage or disengage your pedals, the problem comes from your pedals and not the amp!"??? Which is something I'd told him already but he answered back that his pedals only pop when he plays through this 5F4 and not through his other 5 amps...

Engaging and disengaging my Neunaber Wet Reverb several times doesn't change a thing for me, the pop is as loud each time... But I believe what you say and I read from R.G.Keen that pedals are the source of these pops, not the amps. I actually didn't think I HAD to test my amps with pedals before sending them out, although I occasionally do...

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: 5F4 issue...
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2012, 05:50:30 pm »
Same happens with my 5F4 copy, and less-so with my 5E3 copy. And only does it with my Fulltone pedals; as you say, non-true-bypass doesn't make the click.

And it doesn't always do it either.

Take a look at this. R.G. Keen now designs pedals for Visual Sound. I can take a picture of the old labels on my Fulltone stuff (from ~2000), but I noticed they now claim a "proprietary anti-pop circuit" in their pedals, meaning they took steps to fix the problem in the pedals. Alternately, Jack Orman suggests it might be a problem with the LED power circuit, and offers a fix.

So why is it more obvious with your Super than with his other amps? Most likely, if his other amps have gain channels (and he uses them), it's because the Super has a wider dynamic range because the output tubes will be the first thing to distort. Because of that, the pops do not get squashed the way they would in a distortion channel as the rest of the guitar signal is being clipped.

Once I played my 5F4 copy alongside a guy with a 50w half-stack. His amp was pretty well cranked, and I had a Full-Drive and my amp turned up to ~4-1/2. I sounded like I was blowing him out of the room. The reason was my sound wasn't getting compressed (amp wasn't loud enough for output tube distortion, and the pedal was set in "Comp Cut" mode). By comparison, he was playing with a preamp gain control set very high and the master down, and had a lot of distortion, but also a lot of compression and sounded muted.

He could've stomped, clicked popped, etc and you'd barely notice it through that setup, but a clean and dynamic amp would make it obvious.

I still say the problem is your buddy's/customer's pedal. Have him bring it along and demonstrate the problem. 85% chance he won't replicate it in person with you. If he does, look to see if Keen's suggestions were already followed in the pedal. If not, mod the pedal. Stay towards the high end with your added resistors (4.7M @ 1/8w-1/4w sounds good).
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 05:52:58 pm by HotBluePlates »

Offline SleepLess

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Re: 5F4 issue...
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2012, 03:06:15 pm »
Thanks a lot!

If I understand everything correctly the pedals are at stake in these pops and not the amp... So I'm good to go...

I noticed one thing though: I took out the Neunaber WET Reverb (true-bypass) from my pedalboard to check if the pop would disappear, and then every single pedal popped. Even non true-bypass ones such as my treble booster or fuzz. When I put it back in no pedal popped except the WET but this pop was maybe three times bigger than the pops from all the other pedals before I put the WET back in. The conclusion is that the WET seems to collect all the remaining voltage of the other pedals (it's the last pedal in the signal chain) and of course emits a loud pop when it's engaged or disengaged. When I say loud, I mean it's totally audible even with the amp on 9/12... When the WET's out, then every single pedal seems to keep its own voltage and releases it when it's engaged/disengaged.

ONE thing is still puzzling to me though: these pops do NOT reduce in volume the more I engage or disengage the pedals, it stays as loud as on the first click... Really strange because I built another 5F4 before and it never popped and I had the same pedals...

To put it in a nutshell, are you absolutely, 100% percent sure that I can't do or check anything that might be wrong in the amp???
Thanks again!

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: 5F4 issue...
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2012, 11:18:22 pm »
Think of it this way:

If you remove all pedals, and play the guitar through the amp, are there any issues? If no, your work is done. The problem almost certainly has to be in the pedals.

The answer might be different if you used guitars with active electronics, or a transistor amp; those might have issues which place d.c. on the interconnecting cables. But passive guitar electronics, and the circuitry of the 5F4 is such that you shouldn't be able to create this phenomenon.

Caveat: If you want to be 100% sure, double-check your input jack wiring/grounding, including the value of the resistor running from hot/switched contact to the ground lug. If you're confident that 1M is the proper value, and that all jacks have proper grounds, you're all set.

Offline SleepLess

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Re: 5F4 issue...
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2012, 09:51:29 am »
Crap, I removed all the pedals and put it up on 10. I get some noise and scratches and my guitar pots scratch when I turn them between 6 and 10, on all my guitars (tried 3 different, they usually never make a noise when I plug them into my other amps).

Something is difinitely wrong with the amp, I gotta find what it is...  :BangHead:

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: 5F4 issue...
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2012, 04:35:15 pm »
Then check input jack wiring.

Offline SleepLess

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Re: 5F4 issue...
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2012, 03:53:18 pm »
After searching and searching, measuring and rewiring, I now only have a pop in the bright input 1.

I had a 6.8KΩ resistor going to the diode instead of the 470Ω 1W required when you have the bias mod installed (10KL with 33K resistor mounted)... That was the biggest mistake (though I don't really notice much difference in the amp's tone and response...?) What was that change supposed to do?

The three remaining inputs are noise-free with the pedals now. I changed the 68K resistors going to V1 pin 7 and got the same result. I changed the 1M resistor on that input jack and had the same results. Do you guys think it could be a bad or shorted input jack? Does this ever happen? If it's not this then I absolutely don't know what it can be...

Thanks!

Offline SleepLess

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Re: 5F4 issue...
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2012, 06:15:48 am »
Hi.
I thought I had found the solution but I haven't. Bright channel input 1 is definitely noisy. It is the only input that provides the loud pop with the pedals. The other three are quiet. It is also the only input that makes a noise when I plug or unplug a jack into it.

So far I have:
- Changed V1
- Changed the input jack
- Changed the 1M resistor that is soldered on it.
- Changed the two 68K resistors that are on the board and linked to the jack. So now I don't have anything else to change because I have changed every component from the jack to the socket...
- Changed the two 0.02uF caps that are at the beginning of the board.
- Changed the 100pF cap across the Volume I pot.

I'm stumped and need you guys...
Thanks!
« Last Edit: October 20, 2012, 07:04:45 am by SleepLess »

Offline John

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Re: 5F4 issue...
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2012, 07:17:02 am »
I'm sure you already did this, but double-check the ground on that jack? Maybe run a wire from the ground lug to ground?
Tapping into the inner tube.

Offline SleepLess

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Re: 5F4 issue...
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2012, 07:18:50 am »
Yeah I did... It is well grounded...

Offline SleepLess

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Re: 5F4 issue...
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2012, 07:29:16 am »
This amp is driving me crazy... I have pops from pedals with a cable connected to each of the 4 inputs. Of course the pops coming from inputs 1 are louder than the ones from inputs 2 because of the 1M resistors.

The inputs that make noise when I plug and unplug a jack are inputs 1. That seems to point to the 1M resistors but I have already changed them...
What the hell...?  :cussing:

Offline SleepLess

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Re: 5F4 issue...
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2012, 10:35:56 am »
Hi.
OK so now the amp is emitting a loud siren when I unplug a guitar cord from whatever input and sometimes when I plug one in.
Bright channel input 1 is the noisiest: I get a pop as soon as the cord touches the inside connector. The other inputs do not do that.
What do you recommend? I have alrady changed that jack and I have already changed its 1M resistor and the two 68K resistors that are linked to it...
I really need your insight. It's been more ten days since I started debugging this amp and I haven't made any progress...
Thanks!

Do you guys think it could be a bad V1 socket? I pulled V1 out and I don't have the noise anymore when I plug the cord in Bright channel 1...
Is there a way of knowing without having to replace the whole socket?
« Last Edit: October 24, 2012, 10:42:24 am by SleepLess »

Offline SleepLess

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Re: 5F4 issue...
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2012, 12:50:14 pm »
I have tested the V1, V2 and V3 sockets with my MM and continuity tester with the tubes pulled out. All is good, each pin has continuity to its corresponding place on the board or pots.

Another test: I have hit the chassis with a chopstick all over and it is noisy... I mean, it scratches and booms. It makes the same noise the guitar cord makes when I plug it in...

This seems to point to a grounding problem, am I wrong? But if so, I absolutely don't know where to look. Here's what I have:
- Power cord grounded to a PT screw, by itself.
- Other PT screw is the ground for the HT CT and the stdby switch cap.
- 6V6s are grounded to a single ground point which is one of V5's screws.
- All the rest (HV CT through the first filter cap, board grounds, input jacks) go to the floating buss bar which is itself grounded to the side of the chassis, near the input jacks.

All my connections look good. I pulled on all of the grounded stuff and everything is safely soldered. Nothing moves.
I'm stumped...  :BangHead:

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: 5F4 issue...
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2012, 10:20:58 pm »
Probably a wiring error somewhere.

It's gonna be hard for you to spot. You'll have to methodically check every wire.

For example, I think I see an error on your speakers jacks. On the main speaker jack, the switched lug appears to be connected to the hot (tip) lug; it should be connected to the ground lug so the tip is shorted to ground if nothing is plugged in.

I don't think this is necessarily related to your problem, but rather an example that simple wiring errors are normal. When I built my Standel, it was an oscillator instead of an amp. Took an hour or so to find the simple wiring error I made, and it took a lot of careful comparison to the schematic and layout I drew.

Offline smackoj

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Re: 5F4 issue...
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2012, 08:08:54 am »
Have you tried some isolation washers on the problem input jack?  also, have you done a thorough wood chopstick tapin' her to see where she squawks?    :dontknow:

good luck,  Jacko D

Offline Series_of_Tubes

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Re: 5F4 issue...
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2012, 09:15:37 am »
Someone brought in a Victoria amp a year or two ago that had this same problem.  It ended up being DC leaking across the phenolic board onto the input jacks.  Try hanging the 68Ks an 1M resistors directly off of the jacks--then wire straight to the grid.

Offline SleepLess

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Re: 5F4 issue...
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2012, 12:41:21 pm »
Thanks a lot guys! I was totally stumped and you're giving me new leads that I'll try this weekend.
The chassis is noisy everywhere when I hit it with a wooden chopstick. But it is noisier on the preamp side of the chassis, not as much on the PT side...
I'll keep you posted and if in the meantime you have some new ideas please feel free. At this point everything is good to try...

Offline SleepLess

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Re: 5F4 issue...
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2012, 03:24:48 pm »
Probably a wiring error somewhere.

It's gonna be hard for you to spot. You'll have to methodically check every wire.

For example, I think I see an error on your speakers jacks. On the main speaker jack, the switched lug appears to be connected to the hot (tip) lug; it should be connected to the ground lug so the tip is shorted to ground if nothing is plugged in.

I don't think this is necessarily related to your problem, but rather an example that simple wiring errors are normal. When I built my Standel, it was an oscillator instead of an amp. Took an hour or so to find the simple wiring error I made, and it took a lot of careful comparison to the schematic and layout I drew.

I didn't know that the switched lug had to be connected to ground...  :dontknow: I have fixed this but the amp is still not working properly. But at least I have saved a future problem...  :l2:

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: 5F4 issue...
« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2012, 04:42:31 pm »
It's a minor point.

The idea was if the internal speaker was unplugged, the hot is shorted to ground and saves the output transformer. But this arrangement is also why a properly wired amp will have almost no output if you accidentally plug into the external speaker jack and not the main speaker jack.

Offline SleepLess

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Re: 5F4 issue...
« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2012, 04:15:30 pm »
Damn... I have finished checking every wire and they all test good with my MM continuity tester and they go where they should...

I have also measured DC voltage on the input jacks and I don't have any leak...

 :w2: :cry:

Offline SleepLess

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Re: 5F4 issue...
« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2012, 06:08:04 am »
I have just finshed another voltage chart and everything looks good BUT I have some loud crepitation on V2 pin 1 when I touch it my my red MM probe and pins 2 of V2 and V3 are noisy. The rest is good. Yet on the pot side I have 1.5VDC on the Treble and Presence pots and a litlle less on the Bass pot.

The thing is that these pots are not directly linked to any cap except the ones that are soldered to them i.e.
Any idea about where I could look for the culprit? The 8uF 475V cap maybe? How can I test it without changing it for another one?

Thanks!

EDIT: I have changed the .1uF cap soldered to the presence cap and also the .1uF cap that goes to pin 8 of V3... I still have 1.57VDC on the presence pot tabs... Where else could it be coming from?
Thanks!
« Last Edit: October 28, 2012, 06:58:04 am by SleepLess »

Offline sluckey

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Re: 5F4 issue...
« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2012, 08:43:02 am »
Quote
I have changed the .1uF cap soldered to the presence cap and also the .1uF cap that goes to pin 8 of V3... I still have 1.57VDC on the presence pot tabs... Where else could it be coming from?
V3-8 is part of the phase inverter. That .1µF cap feeds one grid of the output tubes. It has nothing to do with dc on any pot.

The presence pot is connected directly to the cathode of a gain stage (V3-3). There should be dc on it. Schematic shows 1.7vdc.

The only way to get dc on the treble pot (assuming no wiring errors) would be from V2-8 thru a leaky 250pF cap or leaky .1µF cap. If the .1µF is leaky, you should be able to turn the Bass pot all the way down and kill the dc voltage on the treble pot.

Does the amp sound OK?
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline SleepLess

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Re: 5F4 issue...
« Reply #26 on: October 28, 2012, 09:03:44 am »
OK. It was the 250pf cap... I put a new one and now I only have 2mV on the treble pot and I don't have any noise or crepitation anymore when I touch the V2 pins 1 and 2. One proble solved, thanks a lot sluckey!

BUT the main problem is still here: the amp emits pops when I hit it with a chopstick and Bright input 1 is noisy as hell as soon as the guitar jack touches the switch...
I think I'm gonna shoot a video and post it here if you wish, via a youtube link. You will see these pops are absolutely not normal... And I checked every ground point, everything goes as it should and the ground connections are tight, they won't move...


Offline sluckey

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Re: 5F4 issue...
« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2012, 09:19:07 am »
Quote
BUT the main problem is still here: the amp emits pops when I hit it with a chopstick and Bright input 1 is noisy as hell as soon as the guitar jack touches the switch...
You didn't wire the #1 input like the speaker jack, did you? The #1 jack should have the switch terminal tied to the ground lug. And the jack should be fastened tightly with a star washer between the jack body and chassis. Actually, I prefer a dedicated ground wire rather than rely on the jack nut.

This type problem usually indicates a loose/bad connection somewhere. Could be a loose wire, nut, bad solder, tube socket, etc. I recently had a similar problem that turned out to be dirty tube socket pins. I was able to track it to the actual offensive socket pin by using a very light touch of the chop stick.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline SleepLess

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Re: 5F4 issue...
« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2012, 09:55:46 am »
Quote
BUT the main problem is still here: the amp emits pops when I hit it with a chopstick and Bright input 1 is noisy as hell as soon as the guitar jack touches the switch...
You didn't wire the #1 input like the speaker jack, did you? The #1 jack should have the switch terminal tied to the ground lug. And the jack should be fastened tightly with a star washer between the jack body and chassis. Actually, I prefer a dedicated ground wire rather than rely on the jack nut.

This type problem usually indicates a loose/bad connection somewhere. Could be a loose wire, nut, bad solder, tube socket, etc. I recently had a similar problem that turned out to be dirty tube socket pins. I was able to track it to the actual offensive socket pin by using a very light touch of the chop stick.


So here's the video:

http://youtu.be/RI0u3pQdUqs

And my input jacks are wired as such, nothing fancy here. They are tightly fastened to the chassis and a ground wire links normal channel to bright channel ground and then another wire extends to the ground buss bar. The blue wires are the input wires that go to their respective 68K resistors:




Offline sluckey

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Re: 5F4 issue...
« Reply #29 on: October 28, 2012, 10:24:39 am »
That's very likely a loose/poor connection, maybe even more than one since it happens at both ends of the chassis. Revisit all your ground connections with your soldering iron. In fact, retouch all your solder connections. Check all chassis connections. Check tube sockets. Check B+ wiring. Really, it could be anything. Use a very light touch with the chopstick to try to localize a problem area.

Quote
And my input jacks are wired as such, nothing fancy here. They are tightly fastened to the chassis and a ground wire links normal channel to bright channel ground and then another wire extends to the ground buss bar. The blue wires are the input wires that go to their respective 68K resistors:
Is that pic actually your input jacks??? I ask because I see white wires inside your chassis???
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline SleepLess

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Re: 5F4 issue...
« Reply #30 on: October 28, 2012, 10:27:42 am »
That's very likely a loose/poor connection, maybe even more than one since it happens at both ends of the chassis. Revisit all your ground connections with your soldering iron. In fact, retouch all your solder connections. Check all chassis connections. Check tube sockets. Check B+ wiring. Really, it could be anything. Use a very light touch with the chopstick to try to localize a problem area.

Quote
And my input jacks are wired as such, nothing fancy here. They are tightly fastened to the chassis and a ground wire links normal channel to bright channel ground and then another wire extends to the ground buss bar. The blue wires are the input wires that go to their respective 68K resistors:
Is that pic actually your input jacks??? I ask because I see white wires inside your chassis???

OK... Looks like some more hours to find this bug...  :cry:

No this is not my input jack pic. It's just a pic of how it should be done and how I did it. My wires are white indeed...

Offline sluckey

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Re: 5F4 issue...
« Reply #31 on: October 28, 2012, 10:41:02 am »
Shouldn't be hours to find that. And it'll only take about 30 minutes to retouch every solder joint. You may actually find the problem while retouching all the joints.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: 5F4 issue...
« Reply #32 on: October 28, 2012, 11:59:39 am »
It looks like you created some sort of ground buss, rather than use Fender's method of connecting underboard wires between the ground eyelets.

Was any of that buss soldered to the chassis? I couldn't quite tell from the video. And how was the ground connection to the chassis made at the power supply end? How about the green wire of your power cord?

Offline SleepLess

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Re: 5F4 issue...
« Reply #33 on: October 28, 2012, 12:02:04 pm »
It looks like you created some sort of ground buss, rather than use Fender's method of connecting underboard wires between the ground eyelets.

Was any of that buss soldered to the chassis? I couldn't quite tell from the video. And how was the ground connection to the chassis made at the power supply end? How about the green wire of your power cord?

Hi Hotblue!
Like I said earlier on:

This seems to point to a grounding problem, am I wrong? But if so, I absolutely don't know where to look. Here's what I have:
- Power cord grounded to a PT screw, by itself.
- Other PT screw is the ground for the HT CT and the stdby switch cap.
- 6V6s are grounded to a single ground point which is one of V5's screws.
- All the rest (HV CT through the first filter cap, board grounds, input jacks) go to the floating buss bar which is itself grounded to the side of the chassis, near the input jacks.

Offline smackoj

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Re: 5F4 issue...
« Reply #34 on: October 28, 2012, 02:48:35 pm »
Have you tried taking a small, thin "ignition points" file and touching up between the hot tip on the input jack and the shorting tip? Check and make sure when your guitar cable jack is plugged in the shorting tip is not still touching the hot tip?

Offline SleepLess

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Re: 5F4 issue...
« Reply #35 on: October 28, 2012, 02:50:07 pm »
Allrighty guys:

So far I have reflowed all my solder joints on the sockets side (except on the board) and the chopstick test is now perfect, no more resonance, it's quiet everywhere!

BUT I still have noisy input jacks, though not as much. But the boat's siren came back once when I unplugged the guitar jack from input 1 of bright channel. I said to myself "I have to record this and post it up on Youtube to show the guys" but even though I repeated the move about twenty times, no more siren, just the cracking pop you heard in the video...

When I mean siren I mean a really loud siren! My baby was asleep in another far away room in my apartment and he woke up crying because of that crap... It IS loud, but I couldn't make it happen again to show you guys...

Now I'm gonna reflow everything on the pot side...
Thanks!

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: 5F4 issue...
« Reply #36 on: October 28, 2012, 03:17:29 pm »
- Power cord grounded to a PT screw, by itself.
- Other PT screw is the ground for the HT CT and the stdby switch cap.
- 6V6s are grounded to a single ground point which is one of V5's screws.
- All the rest (HV CT through the first filter cap, board grounds, input jacks) go to the floating buss bar which is itself grounded to the side of the chassis, near the input jacks.

All of these use a Keps nut, or a nut & star washer, right? The buss isn't grounded to the chassis by soldering, but with a screw/nut of its own, right?

Offline sluckey

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Re: 5F4 issue...
« Reply #37 on: October 28, 2012, 03:53:45 pm »
Quote
So far I have reflowed all my solder joints on the sockets side (except on the board) and the chopstick test is now perfect, no more resonance, it's quiet everywhere!
OK, now do the control side, especially the input jacks.

Quote
BUT I still have noisy input jacks, though not as much. But the boat's siren came back once when I unplugged the guitar jack from input 1 of bright channel.
Properly wired jacks that have a good ground will not behave like that. The siren sounds a lot like the tube grid is losing it's ground connection occasionally. That ground connection is thru the input jacks and the 1MΩ resistor on the jacks.

It's easy to prove/disprove the jacks as a problem. Just use a gator clip lead, one end connected to chassis and the other end connected directly to pins 2 or 7 of the 12AY7 socket, while plugging/unplugging from the input jacks. There are still other possible culprits but this is so easy to eliminate that you really should do so before pulling any more hair.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline SleepLess

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Re: 5F4 issue...
« Reply #38 on: October 29, 2012, 04:32:08 pm »
- Power cord grounded to a PT screw, by itself.
- Other PT screw is the ground for the HT CT and the stdby switch cap.
- 6V6s are grounded to a single ground point which is one of V5's screws.
- All the rest (HV CT through the first filter cap, board grounds, input jacks) go to the floating buss bar which is itself grounded to the side of the chassis, near the input jacks.

All of these use a Keps nut, or a nut & star washer, right? The buss isn't grounded to the chassis by soldering, but with a screw/nut of its own, right?

Absolutely HotBlue! Screw/Star washer/Nut!

I have found one more problem that I solved: I noticed that pins 8 and 3 of V1 were noisy when I hit them with a chopstick. So I unsoldered the 820Ω that is on the far right of the board and I actually didn't remember that it was barely long enough to reach its two eyelets. So I bent its legs and soldered them directly to the 25uF/50V cap's legs. And bingo, no more noise when I hit the 8 and 3 pins and the amp is a little more silent!

But it is still noisy at the inputs and I'm wondering if I don't have the exact same problem with another short-legged resistor. I'm talking about this one and I'd like you to tell me if I can bend its legs and solder them there without any problem (either the lower leg to the .1uF cap's leg or the higher leg to the 8uf/475V cap's leg, or possibly both?):



Sluckey, I'll try what you say about the input jacks but honestly I think I can rule them out... I have changed the Bright channel input 1 jack 3 times with three different 1M resistors and the problem remains the same... But I'll try.
Thanks guys!

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: 5F4 issue...
« Reply #39 on: October 29, 2012, 07:08:29 pm »
.... it was barely long enough to reach its two eyelets. So I bent its legs and soldered them directly to the 25uF/50V cap's legs. And bingo, no more noise when I hit the 8 and 3 pins and the amp is a little more silent! ...

I think you may have it solved with that observation!

The leads were much longer on old carbon comp resistors. But these aren't readily available, so now the modern carbon comp resistors are a little too short for the original Fender eyelet board.

It's just one of those problems that crop up. Good reason to use a Hoffman-style turret board, or make your own eyelet boards to allow the use of the new, shorter resistors.

Offline SleepLess

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Re: 5F4 issue...
« Reply #40 on: October 30, 2012, 03:08:16 am »
OK HotBlue, but can you tell me if I can solder the circled resistor as on the pic I posted above?
Thanks!

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Re: 5F4 issue...
« Reply #41 on: October 30, 2012, 05:44:45 am »
...can you tell me if I can solder the circled resistor as on the pic I posted above?
Thanks!
yes
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline SleepLess

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Re: 5F4 issue...
« Reply #42 on: October 30, 2012, 06:50:04 pm »
OK.
I have resoldered everything and I have moved the resistor circled above and soldered its legs to the circled spots. The amp is quieter but I still get those huge pops when I insert a jack in Bright Channel input 1 (not into the other inputs). Sluckey I'm doing your alligator clips test tomorrow since it makes noise and everybody's sleeping here... What would it mean if the pop remained? If it disappeared?
Thanks!

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Re: 5F4 issue...
« Reply #43 on: October 30, 2012, 06:53:19 pm »
You clip one end of the alligator to ground, and the other to a point that should be grounded.

If the pops stop, you found where the poor ground is.

Offline SleepLess

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Re: 5F4 issue...
« Reply #44 on: October 30, 2012, 06:57:05 pm »
You clip one end of the alligator to ground, and the other to a point that should be grounded.

If the pops stop, you found where the poor ground is.

Yeah, I'll do this too, but I have already checked my grounds with my MM continuity tester and they're all good. The only ones I couldn't test were the three pots grounds that go through a cap first. All the rest show continuity...

Offline sluckey

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Re: 5F4 issue...
« Reply #45 on: October 30, 2012, 09:55:26 pm »
Quote
Sluckey I'm doing your alligator clips test tomorrow since it makes noise and everybody's sleeping here... What would it mean if the pop remained? If it disappeared?
It's been over 48hrs since I suggested that! If the pop remains, then you have a bad clip lead or you grounded the wrong grid pin. If it dissappears, the problem is ahead of the grid, ie, wire, resistors, jack, or wiring error.

Back to the chopstick video... Did you have the volume pots turned up during that video? Was there a guitar connected to that instrument cable when you were demonstrating the input jack popping noise?
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline SleepLess

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Re: 5F4 issue...
« Reply #46 on: October 31, 2012, 03:25:46 am »
Quote
Sluckey I'm doing your alligator clips test tomorrow since it makes noise and everybody's sleeping here... What would it mean if the pop remained? If it disappeared?
It's been over 48hrs since I suggested that! If the pop remains, then you have a bad clip lead or you grounded the wrong grid pin. If it dissappears, the problem is ahead of the grid, ie, wire, resistors, jack, or wiring error.

Back to the chopstick video... Did you have the volume pots turned up during that video? Was there a guitar connected to that instrument cable when you were demonstrating the input jack popping noise?

I know Sluckey, but I had to go away for work...
As for the chopstick yes all the pots were set on 6/12. No guitar connected, just the cable...

Offline SleepLess

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Re: 5F4 issue...
« Reply #47 on: October 31, 2012, 05:00:08 am »
It's easy to prove/disprove the jacks as a problem. Just use a gator clip lead, one end connected to chassis and the other end connected directly to pins 2 or 7 of the 12AY7 socket, while plugging/unplugging from the input jacks. There are still other possible culprits but this is so easy to eliminate that you really should do so before pulling any more hair.

Right, I've done it Sluckey! Here are the results, all controls on 6.5 and a strat plugged in with all controls on 10, neck/middle pickups:
- Alligator clip to chassis and pin 2 of V1: pops still occur in Bright channel, amp can be played.
- Alligator clip to chassis and pin 7 of V1: no pop at all but NO SOUND from the amp, can't be played! Not getting any sound anymore is a third option I hadn't even thought of...
What's that supposed to mean? Bad pin 7?
Thanks!
« Last Edit: October 31, 2012, 05:05:35 am by SleepLess »

Offline sluckey

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Re: 5F4 issue...
« Reply #48 on: October 31, 2012, 06:44:20 am »
Quote
- Alligator clip to chassis and pin 2 of V1: pops still occur in Bright channel, amp can be played.
And that's how it should be. The normal inputs feed into V1-2. Grounding pin 2 will kill any pops (or guitar signal) coming from the normal inputs. But bright inputs will still function.

Quote
- Alligator clip to chassis and pin 7 of V1: no pop at all but NO SOUND from the amp, can't be played! Not getting any sound anymore is a third option I hadn't even thought of...
What's that supposed to mean? Bad pin 7?
And that's how it should be. The bright inputs feed into V1-7. Grounding pin 7 will kill any pops (or guitar signal) coming from the bright inputs. But the normal inputs will still function.

However, based on this statememt...
Quote
As for the chopstick yes all the pots were set on 6/12. No guitar connected, just the cable...
... I'd say you don't have a problem. It's pretty normal to get a loud pop from any amp when you plug in just a cable with no guitar attached AND the volume is turned up. If the amp sounds OK I'd say you're done.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline SleepLess

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Re: 5F4 issue...
« Reply #49 on: October 31, 2012, 07:07:10 am »
However, based on this statememt...
Quote
As for the chopstick yes all the pots were set on 6/12. No guitar connected, just the cable...
... I'd say you don't have a problem. It's pretty normal to get a loud pop from any amp when you plug in just a cable with no guitar attached AND the volume is turned up. If the amp sounds OK I'd say you're done.

The amp is noisy and there's a mixture of windy noise, high hiss and I get pops whether I have a guitar in or not when I touch Bright input 1...
Gonna shoot another video and post it here so you can see. Something is wrong and Bright channel input 1 has something to do with it... I haven't plugged in any pedals yet but I'm sure they will pop if I do. Give me some minutes to shoot it and post it on Youtube (that's the longest part, that's long to upload) and you'll see there definitely is still something wrong...

 


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