coupling caps quality

[Colas LeGrippa]

Hi !

What would be the best sounding caps as cathode bypass, coupling and treble boost ? I mean the type ( paper in oil, orange drops , silver mica, ceramic disks etc ) and the manufacturer ( auricap, illinois, mallory ) ? What would you guys put in your next build, if you'd have to enter a contest of the best sounding amp ?

Thanks for your answers .

Best regards

Colas

[six el six]

I've come to the conclusion I don't have a preference (for now).

They sound different. That much I agree with.

I like a lot of different "tonal colors".

If it sounds good it is good.

If you're stoned it sounds better.

Objective. Subjective. Yada, yada, yada.

[HotBluePlates]

I have used Jensen Copper-foil paper-in-oil caps in a build before (but only 1 time).
I have used Mallory 150's.
I have used Orange Drops (715P/716P and 225P).
I've used ceramic caps.
I've used Silver Mica caps.
I've used polystyrene in place of mica caps.
I've used Sprague Atoms.
I've used Illinois and Nichicon e'lytics.
I have gear with WIMA caps.


Know what I used in my latest build? No-name "yellow caps" (as the guys on the Antique Radio Forum call them). Bought a set of assorted values in bulk for cheap. Amp sounds great.

I can hear a difference between different cap types. That difference may be due to their relative level of "defects" or variance from an ideal cap. In some circuits, I hear no difference when swapping cap types. Many will agree when I say a cap type you don't like in one circuit may be the perfect cap in a different circuit.

But it's much faster/cheaper to make changes to the circuit to achieve tonal changes. Before I'd ever mess with tweak-caps again, I'd have to be convinced that changing any circuit component value up/down in value makes the amp sound worse. That is, that the circuit as drawn on a schematic is so perfect it is impossible to get better.

That's because you'll get a 0.0001% to maybe 5% change in tone with a cap-type change, where a cap/resistor value change will yield a 1% to 70% tone change, depending on what part value is changed and how much.

[TIMBO]

Hi Colas, I think that there are many aspects that come into play when looking for that seemly unachieveable ultimate tone  and choosing the right caps can be what sounds good for you.

If i was to choose the best caps it would be the ones that are labled "makes you a BETTER guitar player" 

I had finished a build and was happy with the final sound/tone and used a mixture of whatever i had and when played by a mate with far better skills than i, i was blown away by the totally different sound/tone he was able to produce.

So what are the best components to use,  Ones that won't go POP in the middle of a set 

Keep  Colas.

[HotBluePlates]

If i was to choose the best caps it would be the ones that are labled "makes you a BETTER guitar player"  

How about turning down the amp's Suck control?  

The funny thing is when I helped some friends build a studio, we added a knob next to the wall-mounted plate for the iso-booth headphone jack and headphone volume; we labeled in "Suck".

If someone made a mistake during a take, they hit the talk-back and told him to turn down the Suck knob...  

EDIT: oh yeah... it was just a knob and pot mounted on the plate; not connected to anything.

[tubenit]

I've used quite a few different types of caps.  And I have experimented trying different caps in the same amp.  So an important criteria to me is that I want a very clear tone whether it's a clean channel or an overdrive channel. Without clarity, I think it's difficult to have a real articulate tone that captures all the nuances of playing, IMO.

For a really clean & clear tone, I like Orange Drops.  I like Orange Drops in a typical Fender or Marshall Tone stack whether a Fenderish or Marshallish circuit.

For a Marshally tone, I do like Mallory 150's.  However, I find the Mallory's thruout an entire amp can somewhat lessen a clear tone whether clean or OD. They sound more compressed to me and less clear in some amps.  I would be tempted to build a Marshall amp with Orange Drops in the tone stack and a Orange Drop coupling cap right after the first gain stage.

I have found that I like a combination of Orange Drops in the preamp and Mallory's in the LTPI  thru the power amp.

Xicon caps that Doug carries seem to be in between the OD and Mallory's and a great compromise to my ears.

For a really high gain amp,  I also like the Orange Drop PS series alot!  They give a very smooth OD and remain reasonably clear in tone .

In my Tweed BluezMeister and Tweed Overdrive Special,  I found that depending on the location ........... sometimes a Silver Mica or a  ceramic would sound best in a particular spot.  And I'd just use isolated alligator clipped wires to try out which sounded best where.

I find for a "best" tone in caps, that figuring out the cap foil orientation can be a significant factor in tone.

I might be tempted to try OD PS caps with a mix of silver mica and/or ceramic caps for a "best amp" tone.

With respect, Tubenit

[Colas LeGrippa]

..so it is silly to buy ''auricaps'' or to follow a schem with indications with the types of cap to use here or there, in other words, after you, we could build an amplifier with computers caps and have a pretty good sound ? And what about the carbon comp / metalized resitors ?

Thank you all

Colas

[tubenit]

so it is silly to buy ''auricaps''

Not at all if you've heard an amp with those and like the tone. I think some of the "boutique" caps are hype, but if a customer wanted those and/or it helped sell an amp then I'd use them. I buy with a budget in mind always.

I think "best" is so subjective to the type of amp and playing style that one has. An example is that I have a friend that is an incredible player & he plays so fast (& cleanly also) that a solid state rectifier does better than a tube rectifier to allow him to fully sound each note.

With respect, Tubenit

[HotBluePlates]

so it is silly to buy ''auricaps''

Not at all if you've heard an amp with those and like the tone.

I agree.

I'm not saying there is no sonic difference between caps. I'm only advocating that the design should first sound great with whatever run-of-the-mill cap is cheap and that you have on hand. THEN, experiment with more expensive alternatives as your budget/interest allow.

I live in a place where there are a lot of great seafood restaurants, but I hate seafood. So recommendations from others about the best seafood are meaningless to me.

Different types of caps may give the best last few percent, depending on an amp's overall sound, and what you want to hear. So what I like won't necessarily work for you.

And what about the carbon comp / metalized resitors ?

My present preference is for the low noise and stability of metal film and wirewound resistors. In general, their lack of cult following also results in lower cost and wider availability.

As with caps, I can only tell you what I like, not so much if it is the right choice for you. I highly encourage you to try anything/everything you're willing to try and reach your own conclusions. Even if you disagree with me, you're still right for you.

[Willabe]

reach your own conclusions. Even if you disagree with me, you're still right for you.

I have found that I like a combination of Orange Drops in the preamp and Mallory's in the LTPI  thru the power amp.

Gerald Weber wrote a number of times that he liked the Mallory 150's in the preamp and the OD 715's for the PI on.

Tubenit and Gerald are fliped in there placement of the 2 types yet it woks for both of them, so both are right.


              Brad      

[tubenit]

but I hate seafood

This is a serious issue & I think there is help available for this, my friend!  

For those of you who don't know,  HBP has been a HUGE influence, help  and mentor on my amp building quest. The amount of knowledge he has is quite remarkable to me.  Plus he's a great guitarist and just a decent all around great guy (except for this seafood dysfunction concern).

With respect ............ your friend, Tubenit

[Willabe]

but I hate seafood

This is a serious issue & I think there is help available for this, my friend!  

Plus he's a great guitarist and just a decent all around great guy (except for this seafood dysfunction concern).

Mmmmm..... shrimp, crab, lobster, red snapper...... 

Are you kidding me! I'm land locked 50 miles NW of Chicago and you don't like sea food.

Life is not fair.     



                   Brad       

[HotBluePlates]

... a decent all around great guy (except for this seafood dysfunction concern).

Well, I play a Tele and a Strat, so I pretty much get along with everyone... 

[Willabe]

Well, I play a Tele and a Strat, so I pretty much get along with everyone... 

Yeah, but can you play one of these?       



                 Brad       

[tubenit]

Gerald Weber wrote a number of times that he liked the Mallory 150's in the preamp and the OD 715's for the PI on.

Wow!  A extraordinarily rare case of auditory tonal dyslexia.

 

With respect, Tubenit

[Willabe]

Wow!  A extraordinarily rare case of auditory tonal dyslexia.

 

 

He should'a learned how to play one of these, would've cleared that right up.     
      
                 Brad      

[SoundmasterG]

I have some of the Auricaps....but I got them for my Dynaco Stereo 70 overhaul and plan to use those and Solens in that. I wouldn't bother in a guitar amp....I might try them in a tube bass amp though.

I mix and match...depending on the application...whatever works, works. I tend to use polyester caps in guitar amps mostly, and sometimes polypropylene in bass amps or in phase inverters in guitar amps. I use electrolytics in the power supply except I will be using Solens when I rebuild my Sunn 2000S. I've used electrolytics in cathode bypass positions, but prefer using film if possible because I think they sound better.

For resistors, I use metal film or wirewound everywhere except for some plate resistors and grid resistors where I will use carbon comp.

YMMV of course.

Greg

[Colas LeGrippa]

thank you all, I love you.

[terminalgs]

see below links for interesting reads on the subject.   A take-away I had was his observation that vintage capacitor advertising (geared to the radio/amp/tv engineer)  made no effort to differentiate one cap from another in terms of audio tonal qualities,  yet it was -no doubt- the ultimate goal of the engineers to design and build an audio device that was a success in terms audio tonal characteristics.
 
http://www.tone-lizard.com/Electronic_Parts.htm

http://www.tone-lizard.com/capacitors.html

he points to http://www.sound.westhost.com/cables-p5.htm 

(echoing the remarks of others in this thread...)  I have several 50's/60's amps,  all of them built with MOLDED blues, astrons, sangamos, TOBE's,  etc..  they all sound different,  and when friends come over and play them, one will favor one, one will favor another.  Its probably 1% coupling capacitor type, and 99% some combination of circuit design, speaker,  cabinet wood, "amplifier health", and "????who knows".

[phsyconoodler]

I put Auricaps in a couple of 5E3 builds and they sound incredibly good.More clarity than mallory caps.

 More clarity = more harmonic content IMHO.

Another cap that I really like the sound of is Mojo Dijons.They seem to work well in anything.Don't get me wrong,there is nothing intrinsically wrong with mallory,ixcons or even panansonic caps,it's just very apparent that some caps sound a bit better than others in a particular circuit.
  Guitar amps are funny beasts.They don't respond to audiophile methods in many cases,and sometimes sound very sterile as the parts get more 'transparent' or 'high ESR' or overfiltered,etc,etc.

 That's been my experience so far and there are guys on this forum that drawf me with in terms of knowledge.I am hands-on all the way and I believe what my ears tell me.

But....the difference in sound quality from a build with ixcons to say Auricaps is quite dramatic and I have done back to back tests.The ixcons sounded just fine but the Auicaps had more of everything in the notes.The amp bloomed where the ixcons were just opening the flower.Same with Dijons vs mallorys.
  They all sound just fine,some are exceptional sounding.
 But...I cam across a customer's amp,a Deluxe Reverb build that had all Jensen caps in it,even the bypass caps were high end beeswax units.The caps in this amp cost more than my average total builds cost!!! It was so crystal clear that it sounded like listening to a hi-fi unit.No color at all.Not evil at all,just exceptionally clear.It would take a long time getting used to!

[HotBluePlates]

It may be worth pointing out that Mallory 150's (as well as 225P orange drops) are polyester dielectric caps, while the Auricaps are polypropylene (as are 715/716P orange drops and Solen caps).

Mojo doesn't tell you eactly what the Dijons are, although they talk about mustard caps and Mallory 150's, implying the Dijons are polyester caps.

But, there's also differences in using metallized film vs film-n-foil construction, etc.

I'll just say this, cause it's better covered in other books (Morgan Jones' Valve Amplifiers comes to mind):

All practical caps deviate from an ideal capacitor to some degree. depending on the specific construction, that might be very little to very, very much. The difference in degree of "deficiency" probably accounts for reported sonic differences. Depending on your sonic goals, "ideal" or "deficient" may be the best choice. Again, only you, your ears and your wallet can make this judgement. Others may concur with your judgement. Or not.

[Colas LeGrippa]

.so there are amps out there , with very good tone, built with cheapo caps, There are no caps built especially for a/c sound signal as you all say

Colas

[SleepLess]

Hi.
I have installed and tried several brands in Fender tweed and blackface builds, but also in Marshall builds:
- The three Sozos (Blue Molded, Standard Mustard, Vintage Mustard)
- Plessey Yellows
- Jupiter Reds and Yellows
- Mallorys
- Orange Drops 715
- Russian PIO K40Y-9s
- Real NOS Phillips Mustards

Well, I don't much believe in hype anymore... I mean, there are a million other components besides caps that have a more major impact on tone! For my own personal amp (a plexi 1987) I went with the NOS Mustards because I wanted the amp to look as close to the real one as possible. But honestly I built 1987 before mine with Sozos and I don't think they sounded worse... So all in all I think that what should be your guide is your will to try or skip a certain brand.

I mean, all of this is more important than caps:
- Tubes
- Trannies
- Cabinet
- Speakers
- Wiring and soldering skills
- Grounding
- Proper power tubes biasing
- Guitar cables
- Pedalboard cables
- Quality of pedals
- Quality of PA
- And obviously playing skills. I mean, Joe Bonamassa would slay me in ten seconds even if he played through a Marshall 8080 and me through my plexi 1987 with my hype stuff inside, NOS caps and NOS tubes and awesome cab... I now spend less time reading stuff about these caps VS these caps (OK, I made an exception with this thread  ) and play my guitar more!
...

Forget it, this quest is endless if you start wondering about the most trivial things such as caps... I have been into this, now I quit...

[Colas LeGrippa]

thanks for sharing your experience

Colas

[phsyconoodler]

Joe Bonamassa would slay me in ten seconds

At least he can play more notes anyway.Funny how some players are measured by how FAST they can play,not he CONTENT of what they are playing.
  I much prefer listening to BB king(the early stuff when he was still full of piss and vinegar)than Joe Bonanmassa. Too busy for me.Even John Mayer has more CONTENT in what he's playing.

Anyway,back to the subject.There is a difference,but not for the average player.

[SleepLess]

Joe Bonamassa would slay me in ten seconds

At least he can play more notes anyway.Funny how some players are measured by how FAST they can play,not he CONTENT of what they are playing.
  I much prefer listening to BB king(the early stuff when he was still full of piss and vinegar)than Joe Bonanmassa. Too busy for me.Even John Mayer has more CONTENT in what he's playing.

Anyway,back to the subject.There is a difference,but not for the average player.

  I wasn't talking about speed at all... And his speed is not what impresses me the most, though he can be quite fast. I didn't say he is the best on the planet either. And you are right, I could have picked BB or John Mayer or Robin Trower, or Tinsley Ellis or whoever to prove my point: these guys will always sound better than me because I waste too much time wondering about components instead of playing. Oh, and besides just plain work and dedication to their instrument, they just have more talent than I do, period.

But I encourage your to reconsider your opinion about Bonamassa: I've seen him four times, including during one of his rare acoustic shows. The man has tone dripping out of his fingers. He may overplay at times, but hell when he slows it down and uses his volume and tone knobs, he just kills!

[thelonious]

For resistors, I use metal film or wirewound everywhere except for some plate resistors and grid resistors where I will use carbon comp.

+1 on this. RG Keen has a great article on this here: http://www.geofex.com/article_folders/carbon_comp/carboncomp.htm
He says that carbon comps add pleasing 2nd order harmonic distortion, but only when the signal voltages at those points are high enough to make the difference audible. Otherwise you're adding frying bacon sounds to your amp for little sound difference.

I like using metal film for the entire first stage to maximize signal to noise early on, and then use carbon comp for plate and grid resistors later on where the signal voltages are higher - just like SoundmasterG said.

[Colas LeGrippa]

Interesting, Mr Monk