Do we have any vintage Fender Jazzmaster experts?(Complete with Finished pixs)

[Platefire]

Just got an old Jazzmaster in this afternoon to work on. The guitar appears to be complete with vintage case less strings. The fingerboard and frets are really worn. The customer said it had a electrical short. Body looks pink but when I took the pickguard off on a piece of masking tape it said "Fiesta Red". Took some pictures but haven't had time to post them yet but the serical number is 15943. One of sites on serial numbers put that number at 1956 but reading another site said in late 1960 and early 1961 they added three patent numbers to headstock logo. It does have the three patent numbers. Platefire

BTW-I have the original bridge and whammy bar, just took them off while moving it around.

[Platefire]

Here are a few more:

[G._Hoffman]

Just got an old Jazzmaster in this afternoon to work on. The guitar appears to be complete with vintage case less strings. The fingerboard and frets are really worn. The customer said it had a electrical short. Body looks pink but when I took the pickguard off on a piece of masking tape it said "Fiesta Red". Took some pictures but haven't had time to post them yet but the serical number is 15943. One of sites on serial numbers put that number at 1956 but reading another site said in late 1960 and early 1961 they added three patent numbers to headstock logo. It does have the three patent numbers. Platefire

BTW-I have the original bridge and whammy bar, just took them off while moving it around.

Fiesta Red looks pretty pink after it has faded. 

I'm not a particular expert on JM's, but `56 sounds early to me.  I'm not at the shop, right now, so don't have all my reference books available.  I'll try to look tomorrow.

If he wants to play it, you should talk to him about getting a Mastery Bridge for it.  It requires no modification, and so it does not damage the value at all, and it makes that trem actually work (the original bridge is simply idiotic).  They are pricy, but they make those guitars playable.  They are made by an employee of my shop, but we do not have a stake in the company. 

By the way, if your customer wants to sell, I can likely find him a buyer who will pay full market value for it.  Just saying.  Dude's got more than 20 of the damn things, and always seems to want another.


Gabriel

[Platefire]

Thanks Gabriel

The owner said right of the bat that he don't want to sell it. I'm not sure if he knows the actual market price of it or not?

Two issues I've ran into just disassembeling the pickgauard assembly is:

1-Both pickup grounds have an individual short approximatly 1" long lead soldered directly to the brass sheilding so when you try to remove the assembly you immeiatly run out of slack on both pickups.
So it has three gounding points, two short pickup ground directly to sheild and one long ground from
the pickup switch to shield in main pot cavity.

2-In removing the pickups out of the pickguard the clearance around the pickup covers and the pickguard was so close that after I got the pickups out I couldn't get them to go back through. Try as I may, they were so hard to get back in that I was afraid I would break something trying to force them back in. I got them back in but I had to take a file and shave a little pickgaurd material off of each end of slots to get them back in.

The problem I created is when struggeling with the pickups trying to get them back in the holes I pulled the short direct grounds loose--one from the pickup solder point and the other at the other from the solder point to sheild. The question I have is--would it de-value the guitar if I altered these original grounds and run long grounds to the longer ground connection at pickup switch. That way any future removal of pickguard would be a lot easier with only one long wire to sheild? Platefire

[Willabe]

The question I have is--would it devalue the guitar if I altered these original grounds and run long grounds to the longer ground connection at pickup switch.

Gabe will know a lot more about this but from what I've read through the years, yes you could. Collectors want everything original as possible even solder joints. I've seen guys open up guitar control cavities at vintage shows just to see if the parts had been changed/resoldered. But a player who's working might not care.

Try as I may, they were so hard to get back in that I was afraid I would break something trying to force them back in. I got them back in but I had to take a file and shave a little pickguard material off of each end of slots to get them back in.

I understand why you did that and it makes sense to me, might have done the same thing myself. But that might/will be a problem to a collector if noticable, but maybe not to a player.

It's gone way goofy with this stuff for a while now. A collector wants an amp with original 2 prong power cord and original filter caps even if they've gone bad.


I new a guy named Magic Slim in Chgo. who played around town all the time in the blues clubs. He let me sit in with him a lot. He was a great player/singer and he played an old JM for years with flat wound strings on it through an old BF SR. Man he was good.    


                  Brad      

  

[Platefire]

Now that I've got kinda familiar with the JM pickup and pickguard assembly----in the assembly process I think the pickups were mounted on the body prior to installing the pickguard. That is how they were able to attach the 1" ground leads from pickups to shield plate. The pickup screws do not go through the pickguard like a normal fender but through the pickup covers only. I may could re-attach original grounds by doing it that way and hook it all back original?

I never have soldered a ground lead to a pickup--are there any warnings to heed prior to soldering that ground back to it's ground pickup pole.

OK I cleaned all the pots/switches with contact cleaner. I need to test everything prior to putting it back together and getting strings on it. I know how to test switches with a multimeter and point to point connections but how can you test a pot other than checking the range of resistance from "0" to full resistance? any other MM things I can check before assembeling it. I did check the pickups and both are at about 4K--weak. I think maybe using a guitar cord plugged in to jack and check signal continuity to pickups? Platefire

[HotBluePlates]

If you can see date codes on the pots, they could give you the pot manufacture date.

Unbolt the neck; on the end of vintage necks will be a month/year stamped date. EDIT: Apparently the date stamping didn't happen until 1962, but you may have a handwritten date there.

Another site says the 3 patent numbers were added to the decal in fall-1960, and that in '62 the logo had 5 patent numbers. So your neck date will likely fall somewhere in that range.

The bridge mounting "thimbles" appear to have a pretty full crown, which according to this website was changed to a thinner crown sometime in '61. So that would lead me to refine a guess between fall-60 and 61.

The site also says there may be a date for the body in the bridge/tailpiece route beginning in '61. May or may not be visible due to the color.

The site claims that the shield plate cutouts for the slide switches changed from perfect rectangles to ovals in '61.

The site says the tailpiece plate has Pat Pending under the Fender logo until late-61 when it changed to a patent number.

The position of the center latch of your brown tolex case indicates the case was from 61-63.

Based on all this, I'd guess the neck will reveal a 1961 date when removed.

[G._Hoffman]

Best way to check the pots/electronics is to plug it in and see if it sounds right.  If it does, great.  If it doesn't, you'll usually either hear where the problem is (crackling pot, etc.) or you can see the problem if you carefully compare to the schematic. 

Yes, keep everything as original as possible.  Collectors are nuts about this stuff.  As for the pickup, try to get in and out quickly.  You really don't want to damage the enamel. 


I'd guess early sixties too.  The serial numbers on Fenders are a pretty lousy way to date.  They also had a habit of using up old parts that had been laying around the shop for a while, so the best you can do sometimes is the approximate date.

And yes, you should mount the pickups to the body before you put the pickguard on.  JM's are a PITA to wire.


Gabriel

[bigsbybender]

Love at first sight!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Jazzmaster was launched in 1958, according to the Fender Book (Bacon, Day)
From all I've read.. 1961 would appear to be correct.

[Platefire]

Hay Thanks for all the good input--I appreciate your help!

I'm not very knowledgable on vintage guitars, especially Jazzmasters. My first good guitar was a 1967 Sunburst Jazzmaster brand new on sale for $300.00 with case. Normal price was $425.00 if I remember correctly. I played that guitar several years but that was before I started tinkering with things--so I never even took the pickguard off. Knowing what I do now, I glad I never did attempt it

I don't think I will pull the neck to see the date. I've got enough issues getting the pickguard back on
correctly and getting the electronics working right. The volume pot has--3595 1 Meg Lin 137-950--don't know if any of that is the date code HBP is reffering to? I agree that it would be safe to say it's 1961 or maybe late 1960. I have been reading up on it. Yes the bridge mounting thimbles have a full crown, not the thinner later one. One thing that tickeled me was the little ground wires running from the bridge thimble to the pickguard shield--looks like the brissel out of a wire brush.

Another funny thing, the base material that the pickup sits on appears to me to be a cut out piece of vinyl flooring complete with surface pattern mounted on sponges. This apparently to provide the spring/tention for pickup height adjustment the springs normally do. The pickguard sheilding and routed cavity formed brass plates are heavy duty though. Other than the non service friendly wiring, it's a pretty cool guitar!


BTW-The pickups are: Neck=7.65K and Bridge=8.30K

[sluckey]

137-950 = CTS 1959 week 50.

[Platefire]

OK Thanks sluckey

Further support that it's 1960 or 61 since the pot was produced Christmas 1959 53 years ago.

[stratele52]

Platefire ,

I don't read all the post , to much job for me to translate , I'm french speaking.

First you said customer have  electrical schock with this guitar .

1-  IMO this come from the amp.

2- Or if guitar have a bad ground ,but the guitar will ALSO be noisy with bad ground. but amp should be defective too.

I have a original 1962 Jazzmaster.

[Platefire]

No Electrical shock. Customer said it had a short meaning it wasn't completely functioning through the amp or cutting out. No problem with electical shock. I can tell by the dirt and dust on this guitar when I got it that it hasn't been played in years and has been sitting up. It didn't have any strings on it when I got it but I feel like the strings have been off as long as it has set up. I did do a pickup test by tapping on the pickups plugged into an amp when I first got it and the pickups seemed to be working in the neck and bridge position but in middle position seemed to be weak. The tone and volume seemed to be working. I think all the electronics is fine and have been cleaned with contact cleaner. So it's still in a state of having the pickguard off.

I'm having an early Christmas celibration this year because some family has to be somewhere else at Christmas, so I had to pull off the Jazzmaster until things get kind of back to normal again.

So you've got an original 62. Do you play it much? I'm amazed at how much they are going for on e-bay. The 67 I had was a great player until it fell off the top one of those 70's tall narrow Peavey PA columns to a concrete floor. For some reason I laid it up on top of that speaker column to go on break and I think someone tripped over the cord---Boom! Never would play in tune after that and then I didn't know enough to work on it, so I traded it off as I remember on a Gibson Les Paul Custom Black Beauty. What a drastic change tone and feel that was! Plartefire  

[stratele52]

Platefire, sorry I write shock , yes you talk about short.

No I did not play my 62 , too many guitars i like.

[Platefire]

Whew! Got the Jazzmaster back together Friday. Man what a job. I will forever appreciate the simplicity of pickgauard mounted pickups like on a strat after this. I did re-attach the two short 1" long grounds directly from pickup to cavity brass sheilding even in the same solder point it came off of
and one long ground from pickup switch. I had to really think out the solder back process in advance
because on the last solder connection, on the neck pickup hot wire to rhythem switch, it was only a couple of inches of pickguard off the body to work the solder joint. I was sweating bullets through the process because I was thinking of preserving the orinallity of the piece.

Got is all back together and all the electronics are working well after giving them two good cleanings with switch contact cleaner. The bridge was rusted up pretty bad so I let it sit several days with penitrating oil. All the bridge saddle's allen adjustments broke loose except the ones on the D saddle. Installed a new set of strings, ajusted the pickup height, bridge and it played in tune very well with good low action and no fret buzzes. The only thing, this guitar don't respond very well to string bending compared to my own personal guitars. I will post some pictures of it cleaned, stringed and finished as soon as I get a chance. Platefire

[Willabe]

Whew! Got the Jazzmaster back together Friday. Man what a job.

Nice. Good job. Sounds like it was a real bear.

The only thing, this guitar don't respond very well to string bending compared to my own personal guitars.

Do your guitars have higher action? To me the lower the action on a guitar the harder it it to bend on.


              Brad     

[Platefire]

Yep! My action is kind of high just because of that--string bending. Since the Jazzmaster is not my guitar and I think the owner is only an occational player I will leave it low for easy cording and rhythem. Platefire

[Platefire]

Here are the finished pictures. Customer is suppose to come pick it up this evening. Thanks all you guys that showed up and supported me on this. I appreciate your willingness to share your experiance and knowledge. It simply wouldn't have turned out this good without ya. Thanks! Platefire

[bigsbybender]

Pre-CBS custom color Jazzmaster...  I'd be floored just to play one, let alone own it!

[Platefire]

I didn't like the color at first but it's growing on me. I think it blends in with the pickguard very well. The neck feels fine. The whammy system is not too responsive compared to my strats. The pickups have a nice bright fender tone and you can get pretty twangy(in strat/tele area) on the bridge pu. I guess the deal with the ryhthem control is it is a seperate tone and volume for the neck pickup when you flip the rythem switch. Pretty nice mellow tone. When you switch back out of rythem it brightens back up. Platefire

[G._Hoffman]

I didn't like the color at first but it's growing on me. I think it blends in with the pickguard very well. The neck feels fine. The whammy system is not too responsive compared to my strats. The pickups have a nice bright fender tone and you can get pretty twangy(in strat/tele area) on the bridge pu. I guess the deal with the ryhthem control is it is a seperate tone and volume for the neck pickup when you flip the rythem switch. Pretty nice mellow tone. When you switch back out of rythem it brightens back up. Platefire

You would find the trem much better with a better bridge.  Many people put a pencil eraser in the rhythm switch to disable it.


Gabriel

[Platefire]

Yeah I understand but this was not for a player. This guy inherited it from his Grandpa. He just wanted it up and running all original. I informed him of how much those were going for nowdays and run him a copy of a 1961 off e-bay they were asking 7K for. I believe it would go for at least $3500.00. It's really wierd to me that the serial number falls in the 1957 build time but the vol pot is Dec 1959. I believe those were original pots too. Two to three years difference between serial number and pot. So he's got the ax back now and I don't think he's sure rather he wants to sell it or keep it. Out of my hands now. Platefire

[HotBluePlates]

It's really wierd to me that the serial number falls in the 1957 build time but the vol pot is Dec 1959. I believe those were original pots too.

I wish you'd taken the neck off... just 4 bolts and goes back on easy. The date code on the neck would have given the whole story.

The way to look at the pot codes is that if you believe they're original to the guitar, the guitar (or amp) could not have been made before the date on the pot.

The guitar most often was assembled weeks to months after the pot date code, rarely years after. But that still happens; when I worked at Gibson, bulk parts like pots, switches (even their pickups) sit in large bins until the folks building wiring harnesses pluck them from the bin for assembly. If you had a pot at the bottom of that bin, and they refill the bin before it is completely empty, then it's possible for there to be a couple pots that don't get used for a year or more after manufacture, even as the bulk of parts spend very little time waiting to go into a guitar.

You shouldn't put too much stock in the serial number either. You might have noticed when you looked up the number on a chart that there's overlap of serial number ranges among some years. Serial number date charts for vintage guitars were assembled by observation, where dealers/collectors date the instrument from other information (pot codes, neck date, pickups, details of construction, etc) then record the serial number and attempt to correlate the # to a date range.

Reliable serial number to date information probably began when Gibson (and other makers) included the year of manufacture as part of the serial number. I know Gibson was doing a version of this by the 80's, not sure when exactly they began it. Each manufacturer has their own method, and they probably weren't motivated to have a rigid serial number system until they chose to use that number to track quality control and record returns to the factory.

[G._Hoffman]

Fender serial numbers are a less than reliable way of dating their older guitars.  Neck dates aren't much better, though, because Fender had a habit back then of leaving parts laying around for a long time - years, even - before putting them together.  So the best you will get off a neck date is when the NECK was made.  There were also periods where they would put their decals over the finish, so it is not uncommon for bits of the serial number to have been worn off, making the date even more difficult to determine. 


Gabriel

[Platefire]

HotBluesPlates

Yeah--I chickened out on pulling the neck. I was sweating bullets just getting the pickups, grounds, wiring and pickguard back all like original and didn't want to add to the difficulty. If I did this kind of work all the time, I'm sure I would  have--but this isn't an everyday operation for me. The fear factor went up when I saw what these babes were going for and felt responsible to minumize any damage. I really believe it is a 1960 ax and no latter than 1961 based on the vol pot date. I think that would be close!

I would like to hear more about your experiance at the Gibson Factory. I love Les Pauls and 335's even though I personally own only copies:>) I'm also insterested in Heritage guitars that are built in the old Gibson Factory. I have attached a link that tell about the Heritage operation in the old factory. Very interesting. Don't know if I'll ever spring for a high dollar LP type but Heritage looks promising.

HERITAGE Factory Tour 2010

Greg-H---Yeah I really didn't realize pre CBS Fender let parts lay around so long before use until what I found out from working on this old Jazzmaster. I do love working on old fender amps and guitars becaue they were made to last---and so they did! Platefire

btw-here is a you tube vidio of the 1959 Fender Factory for those who have not seen it---about the time the Jazzmaster was made.
Fender Factory Tour 1959

[stratele52]

HotBluesPlates  write ;

Yeah--I chickened out on pulling the neck. I was sweating bullets just getting the pickups, grounds, wiring and pickguard back all like original and didn't want to add to the difficulty. If I did this kind of work all the time, I'm ........
_____________________________________________________

I understand you , same for me the first time . Not now,easy , It is only two pieced of wood screw together . But be carefull some vintage have a shim between neck and body . Be sure to put same place.

[Madison]

Man, what a nice guitar.
Great job!
Looks swell.

I wouldn't have been able to resist taking the neck off for a peek and pictures.
Never know, the owner gets it stolen you could be very helpful in ID.

I just went into town last weekend and played a few Jazzmasters out of curiosity.
Never really even thought of owning one until recently.
Loved them!
Going to get one as soon as I can.

Thanks for sharing your adventure.

[Platefire]

Thanks, Your Welcome! As I already stated a brand new 1967 Jazzmaster was the first professional type guitar I ever had--got a pix I could scan somewhere if I can find it--was sunburst. First electric was a Harmoney arch top acoustic that I installed kent pickups on, Second a Mongomery Wards Soilid body, third was a Kalamazoo by Gibson--cheap Mustang knockoff and then the Jazzmaster--a real step up. So it was kind of nice to lay hands on a vintage Jazzmaster again. Platefire

OK-Here is one of the only surviving pix of my old Jazzmaster taken approximatly in 1971 strapped on my Son Greg with my 1967 Impala in the background. It has some blacklight stickers on it as the group I was in used blacklights that was popular then.

[John]

That is cool!