Queen of Spades

[EL34]

I did a version of this tune about 5 years ago

I just finished re-doing all the guitar parts cause I have better gear now and I really like this tune.

It's got an Indian vibe
Check it out with headphones

I love this sort of stuff

Here's the recorded version

http://www.el34world.com/Misc/Music/files/QueenofSpades2.mp3

Here's the Youtube version
Queen of Spades - Guitar instrumental

[SILVERGUN]

The more I hear of what you do the more I am impressed with your ability to change genres,,,and sound great doing them all..
Very cool man,,,,please keep up the good work........you are making me want to play more guitar

Do you know what scale you are in D "Spanish Gypsy?"= (G harmonic minor)......how do you think of it?

[EL34]

Thanks

Don't know what scale it is
I tried to look it up but none of the common scales I am familiar with matched the notes I was using.

I'll try and figure it out by jotting down the notes starting at D

I also recorded a youtube live version and posted that up above

[SILVERGUN]

Check out this web page:
http://www.jazzguitar.be/exotic_guitar_scales.html

This was my guess:
the Jewish scale /or/ Spanish Gypsy scale

Last one on the list........whatever it is,,, it's very cool

[EL34]

Hmm, thats not it
Here's the notes of the scale

D Eb F# G A Bb C D

Note the 4 fret span between the Eb and the F#

Let me know if you can come up with it cause I'd like to know what it is

I looked at all the scales on that page and none of them match up

It looks like D Phrygian execpt the F is a F# (red dots in my screen shot should be F#)

[Willabe]

D Eb F# G A Bb C

C Db E F G Ab Bb

1 2b 3 4 5 6b 7b

Hmmm.... b2, b6, b7. Half diminished? Been a while I'd need to look in 1 of my books.

(b2 = b9, a b9 scale would have b7 and maj. 3'rd but not b6?)

                  Brad      

[SILVERGUN]

I have heard that specific scale referred to as Spanish Phrygian /or/ Phrygian Dominant

I use it on nylon string when I'm trying to inject some moody latin flavor into it...

[SILVERGUN]

Looking back....that first scale "Jewish" is correct...( I have never heard it called that before)

All of the examples on that page were given in the key of A

In the posted pic the 6th string root is A on the 5th fret
If you move that up and make the root D at the 10th fret the pattern lines up and the notes are the ones you listed...

On the pic, just change the #5 (fret marker) to a #10 and you're in D

So 1 scale with 4 names,,,,,,hmmm

[Willabe]

All of the examples on that page were given in the key of A

I find it easier to convert to key of C and then it's easy to number the notes.

So 1 scale with 4 names,,,,,,mmm

Might be more, give me numbers for notes/scales.

Ever see a Nashville song chart? All numbers. Need to change keys for a singer? Piece o cake.


               Brad      

[EL34]

yeah, ok, that's it, forgot that the page was in A
It needs a better name  
I like Spanish Gypsy better

I added it to my Guitar chords and scales program

I have to add some of those other oddball scales to my program also

[tubenit]

I am amazed that you guys know and can play in so many different scales. That's cool!

With respect, Tubenit

[SILVERGUN]

Yup,,,,Spanish Gypsy is the best descriptor for the feel of that scale...

I usually think----ok,,,Spanish Phrygian.......just take Phr., and raise the 3rd
That's how I have to picture it in my head, because I have Phr. memorized, and it's just sooo close

Try this: a trill riff that works great as an acending or decending "move"
In D
With your 1st and 2nd fingers (cause it's easier to trill with those),,,,trill 2 notes that sit 1 fret apart (i.e. D + Eb) on the 6th string (10th + 11th fret)
Then move up to the 5th string and continue the riff by trilling the next pair of notes (lets say A + Bb----12th and 13th fret on A string) and continue up the strings/up the scale (fairly quickly),,,or back down the scale and down the strings,,,,anywhere 2 notes appear fret to fret

I have used that as a head turner on occasion,,,,,or at least an eye mover

[Willabe]

I am amazed that you guys know and can play in so many different scales. That's cool!

I never said I could play in them.


                Brad       

[SILVERGUN]

I am amazed that you guys know and can play in so many different scales. That's cool!

Back in the 90's when I was in a rut,,,and trying to figure out why some guys sounded so much more diverse than me,,,I bought this video and it was really an eye opener for me to see that a lot of the "positions" are interchangable.........I stilll haven't really mastered it, but at least I had the info. I was looking for and Frank did an excellent job of explaining....It helped that I had some scale knowledge prior to trying to digest this stuff

Video is called " Modes--No More Mystery" by Frank Gambale,,,,,and this was my favorite playing clip

Frank Gambale - Phrygian solo

[EL34]

I play by ear
I never learned all that and never had that much discipline to do the schooling thing
And for some reasonn my brain does not grasp all the modes and scales thing

I more or less see shapes on the fretbnoard and I can hear where the next note must be

Not very scientific and not very good way to learn guitar

My brain is much better at seeing music than thinking it

[Willabe]

I play by ear

I more or less see shapes on the fretboard and I can hear where the next note must be


My brain is much better at seeing music than thinking it

When I used to play a lot I would often know where to reach for the next note in a new song I was learning, 1/2 step, whole step, 1 1/2. It was pretty easy.

Think about blind players, they can't see the fret board and have to play by muscle memory.

Look at a Bonnie Raitt video clip, she's playing slide and she doesn't even look at the fret board, she just reaches to the next note. Of coarse she's been playing for many years at this point and still plays often.

I started to fool with modes and all your doing is re-assigning the the value of the note by starting at a different point in the scale as root 1. It's still all the same notes, no new notes are added to the scale.

What happens is that because you've changed the root starting point you just changed all the 1/2 step/whole steps in the scale with respect to each other, that's what changes the sound of the scale.

If you take all the modes and convert them all to the key of C and write out above the separate notes 1/2 step, whole step you will plainly see it. Another good reason to use numbers rather than letters for the notes.

Guitar players see patterns in 1/2 and whole steps anyway not letters for the notes. Then we just move those scale patterns up and down the neck to change keys, cords too. Because the relationship from fret to fret and string to string stays the same.

Just be glad your not a keyboard player.    


               Brad                        

[SILVERGUN]

I was the polar opposite....
My first teacher at age 15 made me learrn how to read music first (before he taught me a Rush song)

My first book was "Wolfhart---Studies for the Violin"......single note lines, and he would tap out a tempo for me as I would "sight read" what I didn't memorize before the lesson...

He would be looking at jazz charts (with just #s for chords, like Brad was saying) when I got there,,,,,and by the end of the lesson, he'd be showing me the latest Iron Maiden riff he'd mastered..........scary talent + knowledge,,,so I had a good role model

Then my high school had a class called "Theory and Harmony" for the band nerds,,,,,so I got some daytime scale theory,,,between Phys. Ed and English
It's the only class I got an "A" in..............also had access to a piano,,,and the teacher was always late for class

SO, what I'm trying to say is.......I can really appreciate your method,,,,and don't think I could've ever gotten to your level by ear alone

I probably would've stuck to the blues (Brad's gonna let me have it for that comment)

[Willabe]

Then my high school had a class called "Theory and Harmony" for the band nerds,,,,,so I got some daytime scale theory,,,between Phys. Ed and English
It's the only class I got an "A" in..............also had access to a piano,,,and the teacher was always late for class

Well that ought to tell you something about yourself?

I fully believe we are very drawn to what were gifted in. It has to do with the way were wired. When we get around what were gifted in it resonates inside us. And now your draw to this website. Helow!     

The story goes that when Billy Preston was young he used to live in the same town as Ray Charles. Billy would go and stand outside Rays window and listen to Ray play for hours. Ray latter said when Billy told him that he knew someone was out there but didn't know who and let him listen.

"Deep calls to deep in the roar of a waterfall."  (Guess where that quote comes from?)

I probably would've stuck to the blues (Brad's gonna let me have it for that comment)

                     Not at all.    

I like, listen to and play a lot of different types of music.


                   Brad      

[SILVERGUN]

"Deep calls to deep in the roar of a waterfall."  (Guess where that quote comes from?)

I'm gonna have to steal that one.....never heard it before

I think I'll start a new thread with some more mode help for anyone who might be interested.

Thanks for the inspiration Doug!

[EL34]

I quit playing blues a long time ago
When the flood of SRV clones started appearing everywhere, I lost interest.
And I had no interest in learning standard blues licks

I do like blues along the lines of how Billy Gibbons does it and I love minor key blues (As in Thrill is gone)
Straight up major blues 1-4-5 bores me to tears

[Willabe]

IMO it don't get any better then Billy playin "Blue Jean Blues".

Yeah I've always been a sucker for minor key blues. I love it when they put a latin type beat behind it too. Like Otis Rush "All your Love".


            Brad      

[EL34]

Billy G rules!

[SILVERGUN]

Here's the new thread.....if it helps anyone, I'll be happy:
http://www.el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=14907.0

I love minor key blues

Yup, it's the first scale I learned, and when I learned all of the notes of the Minor scale (natural minor), I felt like I had the key to the universe

Only problem was,, I tried to play it over everything  ,,,,,that's when I had to learn music

Billy spoke to me personally on this one:
ZZ Top - I Need You Tonight

[tubenit]

Incredibly interesting discussion in this thread!  Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experience.

With respect, Tubenit

[Willabe]

An old friend of mine (Bob Levis) played for Lonnie Brooks for years (and then if that wasn't enough played for Otis Rush for a number of years after that).

He told me they we down in Texas playin 1 time and after the show when they were leaving to go back to the hotel, out back was a big black Limo with tinted windows. You couldn't see who was in it.

When Lonnie came out the back stage door the window rolled down in the Limos back seat and it was Billy G. inside. He called Lonnie over and they talked a sort time. Lonnie went back to his band and said he was going to go hang with Billy and he'd see them in the morning.

Bob said the next day he asked Lonnie what happened last night with Billy? Lonnie said they went to Billys house and Billy showed him a lot of his gear he had bought over the years and that Billy had a "new'' computer recording thing that the 2 of them where cutting tracks on. Lonnie was freakin out about this "new" recording gear.


             Brad            

[Willabe]

Only problem was,, I tried to play it over everything  ,,,,,that's when I had to learn music

Yeah I did the same thing. I didn't know what a major scale was even though I was playing many songs in a major key.

It's just the same scale 3 frets down but the notes resolve to a different place on the fret board.


              Brad     

[EL34]

Numbers work better for me than flatted 5th, flatted 2nd etc

Melodic Minor Descending is my favorite minor scale

And numbers is how I think of it on the fretboard besides memorizing the shapes
0.2.3.5.7.8.10

12 notes total and zero being the root

and it looks like this in the key of A

[tubenit]

Guys, ............. IF you were wanting to learn more of that light instrumental jazz meets blues type stuff of Larry Carlton and Jeff Golub ...............

And then some Eric Johnson type stuff .................

What besides pentatonic scales would be good to know? Like if you picked two more scales to know besides pentatonic?

I realize it may not be fair to limit it to two ..........but as a starting place which two would you learn next?   Would the Melodic Minor descending be one?

Thanks, Jeff

[EL34]

The one right above in my post works for tons of tunes and is very usefull

[tubenit]

The one right above in my post works for tons of tunes and is very usefull

I will start practicing that one with some backing tracks and see what I can do with it.  THANKS!

[SILVERGUN]

I started out with minor pentatonic....and then filled in the blanks with the complete natural minor scale
Minor pentatonic (derived from Penta = 5) is only 5 notes of the natural minor scale,,,,so if you don't already know those I would start there

And then, in the same vain, I think you need to know the Major scale as well, and how/where to implement major vs. minor

If you're OK there then I would say, listen to different examples of modes and see what mood you would want to create....
The modes contain all the same notes and patterns as the major/minor scale......you just use them to add different flavors and textures to music, based on where you place the root note in relation to the rest of the pattern....(see my other thread)

I would say that some guys use a combination of the blues scale / Dorian mode / and major without even realizing what they are doing (and sometimes it sounds like it),,,,because they are all right there in "the box"
But the masters know how to intertwine a few different scales/modes into one song.....

You tube Dorian examples and listen to Franks explanation, and don't be afraid to ask more questions....( I owe you BIG! and would love to think I'm actually helping YOU)

Gambale Modes

[SILVERGUN]

JEFF, don't miss this one....if I was sitting in front of you I could only hope to be this clear and concise...

This guy does a good job of quickly showing you how some of the modes relate to the pentatonic scale:
Learning the modes on guitar

And just for the record:
A melodic minor (decending) = A natural minor = A Aeolian mode (3 ways to say the same thing,,,,I'm sure there are more---like, just the A Minor scale)

[SILVERGUN]

I saw Larry about 3 -4 times in the 90's and he just blew me away....
I can't play like him,,,,but it doesn't stop me from trying
This article can tell you more than I can......love the title

http://www.guitarplayer.com/article/10-things-you-gotta-do-to-play-like-larry-carlton/16

[Willabe]

Guys, ............. IF you were wanting to learn more of that light instrumental jazz meets blues type stuff of Larry Carlton and Jeff Golub ...............

There's nothing light about Larry's music, it may sound light but it's more complicated than it sounds.    

What besides pentatonic scales would be good to know?

Like SG said a pentatonic scale is just a 5 note scale instead of a 7 note scale. There's more than 1 pentatonic scale.

I will start practicing that one with some backing tracks and see what I can do with it.

That may or may not work. The scale has to be able to "fit" over a chord structure, at least to the players ear. Just because you choose a chord progression in the key of C natural doesn't mean you can play any C _ _ scale over it. If you play a melody strictly "inside" meaning no "outside" notes to the scale than it's safe. But certain notes might sound way to harsh or disanent to play them over the chords.

Here's how I was taught at 1'st to see this;

It's easiest to see what's what looking at a keyboard even if you don't play 1.

Take only the white keys from C to C and you get; C D E F G A B C or 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8/1.

Any black key in between is a half step, a flat or sharp and B to C, E to F is a half step, 1 fret. Now if you take every other note from that scale and play them in groups of 3 you get the natural triad chords from with in that scale.

1. Cmaj. = M1. CEG
2. Dmin. = m2. DFA
3. Emin. = m3. EGB
4. Fmaj. = M4. FAC
5. Gmaj. = M5. GBD
6. Amin. = m6. ACE (which is the relative minor to C major, 2 of the same notes)
7. B 1/2 dim. = 1/2dim.7 BDF (the sign for 1/2 dim. is a  o  with a slanted line through it)

Now do the quad cords, just add the 4'th note;

1. Cmaj7. = M7 CEGB
2. Dmin7. = m7 DFAC
3. Emin7. = m7 EGBD
4. Fmaj7. = M7 FACE
5. G7 = Dom.(b)7 GBDF
6. Amin7. = m7 ACEG (which is the relative minor to C major, 3 of the same notes)
7. B 1/2 dim. = 1/2dim.7 BDFA (the sign for 1/2 dim. is a  o  with a slanted line through it.)

(* I'm not sure anymore about the 1/2 dim. thing.)

Relative minor for C, same notes, same chords, reasigned order, 1 starts at Amin.7;

1.  Amin7. = m7 ACEG (which is the relative minor to C major, same notes)
2.  B 1/2 dim. = 1/2dim.7 BDFA
3.  Cmaj7. = M7 CEGB
4.  Dmin7. = m7 DFAC
5.  Emin7. = m7 EGBD
6.  Fmaj7. = M7 FACE
7.  G7 = Dom.(b)7 GBDF

You can play any of those chords and be totally "inside" of the scale that they are formed from. And any note from that scale will fit over any of those cords.

Certain scales have certain chords that are formed from them and they work over each other perfectly = inside. Now you can go outside of the scale with notes or chords, it's up to you how far outside you think still sounds good.

When they start to teach you more advanced voiced chord progressions they tell what scales to try over them. It can get very complicated pretty quick.And alot of the songs they teach from the Real Book of standards are realy in 3 or 4 keys all linked together with 2 or 3 different scales that can be played over each section.Plus when you go from 1 section to the next you have to know what notes the 2 sections have in comman to transition with into the next section. I know of barely the basics of this stuff.      

Once you learn some of the scales and what cords go with them because of their note chemistry/construction you can look at a chord chart and figure out what fits over what.

I don't like calling the modes by their names because it doesn't tell what's in them. The Dorian is a minor 7 scale, minor 3'rd, natural 5'th, flat 7. If you look at all the modes you can call them by their content and know what's in them. So a dorian scale fits over a minor 7 key song like "Thrill is Gone".

You know the story goes "the only differance between the old blues guys and the old jazz guys is that the blues guys would be sleeping off a hang over the next day after a gig but the jazz guys would get up and studie/play scales all day"    


             Brad      

Edit; I fixed 4 things and added a couple in here, I'm rusty at this and don't have a keyboard in front of me. Sorry.

[tubenit]

WOW !!!!!!!   That's great information and ALOT to digest.  I don't read any music, unfortunately.

I understood some of what you said, but I will have to go back and reread this a few times to make sense of it.

I can play the majority of those chords listed (maybe even all of them) but some I'd have to look up again to remember.

The issue of me is the concept of playing any note from that chord over than chord .................... when the chords are changing so rapidly.  I get totally lost trying to do something like that.

THANK YOU!   Jeff

[Willabe]

It's just basic music theory, but it goes on forever.     

Western world music is based on a 1/2 tone system while eastern world music is based on a 1/4 tone system. All we have are 12 notes, that's it. Every thing else is just an octave of 1 of those 12 notes.          Should be easy right?       

I don't read music either, but what I'm talking about really has nothing to do with reading music. I'm talking about the weight or gravity of each note in a scale or chord in relationship to each other.

Music is about building tension and releasing tension. So sit down at a keyboard and play 2 notes together and you will hear this tension. Try the C scale like this;

C-D, C-E, C-F, C-G, C-A, C-B, each pair has a different tension or weight. The chords have this also. If in C, C is ground zero, no tension. It's the plumb line, at sea level. Now as you play another chord built from that C scale you go away from O, building tension and your ear wants you to resolve that tension by going back to C. The 1 chord is least/no tension, the 5 chord has the 2'nd least tension, the 4 chord has the 3'rd least tension, I forget the rest of the order.

Your ear is always wanting you to resolve this tension, so if you play the 1 chord and then play the 5 chord now you have a choice, either resolve the tension by going back to the 1 or build tension in the song by going to another cord. You know in church and at the end of an old hymn they end the song with "A-men"? The band/keyboard player just played the 5 chord on the A and resolved back to the 1 chord for men. And everybody feels the peace in the musical resolve of that tension. It's not by accident they do that. Listen to any good song writer and you will hear this happening with the story line of the lyric. They're using the tension/voicing of the chords/melody to tell the story by backing, undergurding the words with musical feeling. It's done with instrumentals too. Listen to Larry Carilton play "Miles and Smiles to go". You can hear what he's painting in feelings with the voicings of the song. I love that song!!!!

This is the weight or gravity of the chords in the progression pulling you ear back to ground zero.

They named each chord from the scale and their names are given for their weight in respect to each other. IIRC, 1 is the tonic, 5 is the dominant, 4 is the sub-dominant, sorry I forget the rest.   


                          Brad     



   

 

[Platefire]

Great Doug! The music was find but I also enjoyed the video seeing you perform it. I love white guitars and love your Ibanez. I thought of all those amp parts in the background getting baptised in lushush guitar tone:>)--good start for um

[EL34]

Thanks Plate

[Willabe]

I can play the majority of those chords listed (maybe even all of them) but some I'd have to look up again to remember.

Jeff you probable do know all of those chord voicings as they are the foundation of pop, folk, rock, blues, C&W, etc.  The 7 chord is not used much in the types just listed. (I've only needed it in a hand full of songs over the past 35 years.)

The issue of me is the concept of playing any note from that chord over than chord .................... when the chords are changing so rapidly.  I get totally lost trying to do something like that.

I don't understand the part in blue.

After a while I started to see that you can look at playing music as processing information in your mind like a computer. The more you have it memorised and understand the theory of the construction of the scales/chords the easier it is to play it on the fly. Take listen to the old BeBop jazz players, man now those guys processing this stuff at an unbelievable pace.       

I heard LC say in an interview that after he sat down with Joe Pass (?) he realized that he needed to totally re-think the way he understood theory. And LC had already been playing for a long time at that point!                

There's an old story about Miles Davis going to Dizzy Gilispi and asking him to teach him. So Dizzy says sure come on over to my house when you have some time. So Miles shows up and Dizzy lets him in and says come on and sit down at the piano with me. Miles says "Dizzy you know I don't play any piano" and Dizzy says "Well then we don't have anything to talk about. You already know how to play the trumpet."       

Meh guitars, gimme one of these,       

                 

                              Brad          

 

[Willabe]

Great Doug! The music was find but I also enjoyed the video seeing you perform it.

Yep, Doug can play.

I've kidded him about going out on tour, but I think he realy is that good. He could stand toe to toe on stage with a lot of players IMO. And I stand by that!


                Brad       

[EL34]

Ahhh, I'm just another two buit hack with a guitar.

Real players would blow me off the stage

I have a couple little niches that I am ok at, but throw something complicated at me and I would be lost

[Willabe]

Ahhh, I'm just another two buit hack with a guitar.

Real players would blow me off the stage

I have a couple little niches that I am ok at, but throw something complicated at me and I would be lost

That's not true IMO and I'm not tryin to butter your bread on both sides either. It's not about being complicated either, it's about what you playing and your better than you admit to. Your a humble guy so I'll just toot your horn for you a little bit.

OK done now.      

                Brad      
 

[EL34]

It's all about the enjoyment

It's one of the only hobbies I have continued with over the years
that and Bicycles

[Willabe]

It's all about the enjoyment

Well it shows, you can hear it.


              Brad     

[SILVERGUN]

This clip was so good that it started a 40+ long thread......and spawned another  

That's pretty cool in itself.......I feel closer to my inner gypsy now because of it

Good luck Jeff, and if just one thing sticks with you, it was worth all the typing

that and Bicycles

I watched a couple of the bike videos.....you're a mad-man 
I feel like a worried parent when i watch them........I'm like "sloooow down, dude",,,"you're gonna crack your head open!!"

[EL34]

Been moutain biking a long time
Takes a fair amount of skill to keep the rubber side down

[Tyrannocaster]

Man, I need to get out more. I haven't been here in a while and look at all this new stuff! Doug, this one sounds great. I used to spend hours each day practicing modes - now I don't do that at all; call me lazy, I guess. There's so much other stuff to "master" (I'll never even come close) what with all the processing and synth stuff you can do...

Anyway, I really like this one. Some people won't get past the initial Led Zep hit but that's only because they haven't listened to any Eastern stuff that wasn't Zep or Beatles derived, LOL. There is so MUCH great music from over there! I have been listening to this one CD of Armenian stuff and I'm fascinated by it - I have listened to it more times than anything else I've gotten in a few years. Lovely music, it's called "Armenian Spirit" (Esprit d'Arménie) by Jordi Savall. Man, these guys can play - great duduk, cool minor melodies, super tasteful percussion and just a fantastic record all around.

Cool tune! Want more!

[EL34]

Thanks
I love Indian music an middle eastern sounding stuff

I have another one you may like when I get time