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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: EVH mod ??????????  (Read 11464 times)

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Offline Colas LeGrippa

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EVH mod ??????????
« on: January 15, 2013, 05:37:49 pm »
loook at this:

5. The Cerrem Resistor Mod

I’ve saved the craziest one for last. Remember when I said that Eddie Van Halen’s amp was mostly original inside? That’s because he had a huge resistor array hanging out the back, that was plugged between the amps output transformer! When I say this mod is dangerous, I mean it. The techie way of describing this mod is “putting a resistor between the OT Primaries”. The non-techie way of describing it is to say that basically, its like getting the two halves of the amp to kill each-other! Eddie Van Halen used to use this back in the club days on the sunset strip, in order to bring down the volume of his amp. While it does work incredibly well in making an amp quieter, it’s also why Van Halen I has a totally different guitar sound to all the other Van Halen albums; incredibly heavy sounding for an old Marshall amp.

The reason it’s called the Cerrem mod is because that’s the username of a vintageamps forum member who spilled the details of the mod, he’s a tech who had seen Eddie’s amp personally and knew how this worked. There’s a photo of the resistor hanging out of the back of the magic Marshall somewhere on the internet, if you see it, now you know why!



I'd like to try that on my 2204 clone, any idea how to perform that mod ?
Don't miss the Woodstock experience : ''FORTY YEARS AFTER'' at Club Soda,  in Montreal, august the 17th and 18th and october the 27th. Fifteen musicians onstage.  AWESOME !
P.S.: call me Alvin.

Offline Colas LeGrippa

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Re: EVH mod ??????????
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2013, 09:29:54 pm »
who told you there was a photo ?

if you insist, take a lot at the pics here

http://www.twistyneck.net/cm.html
Don't miss the Woodstock experience : ''FORTY YEARS AFTER'' at Club Soda,  in Montreal, august the 17th and 18th and october the 27th. Fifteen musicians onstage.  AWESOME !
P.S.: call me Alvin.

Offline SILVERGUN

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Re: EVH mod ??????????
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2013, 09:11:03 am »
Sounds like a homemade attenuator,,,,,try this: pdf atached

I built this one: (works well, but does roll off some highs as the signal get attenuated)

EDIT: I was posting this response while you were posting the link.......so yeah, that is a different type of mod :huh: (not sure if I have the balls to try that one).....I should have read your post closer----you said OT primaries  :embarrassed:
Think I'll wait to hear the responses to this one :wink:
« Last Edit: January 16, 2013, 09:35:39 am by SILVERGUN »

Offline 6G6

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Re: EVH mod ??????????
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2013, 09:57:00 am »
This makes me cringe.

Offline alerich

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Re: EVH mod ??????????
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2013, 10:39:05 am »
Here's a you tube video where the guy in your link talks about and demos the thing.

Cerrem's Mod, shown by mr.twistyneck (no effects)

I've seen that page and read about that mod before but I can't really wrap my head around what is happening in the circuit when you do that. I had also read that EVH used some sort of resistor array and then tapped off a signal and re-amped it through a solid state amp. Who knows.
Some of the most amazing music in history was made with equipment that's not as good as what you own right now.

Offline jerrydyer

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Re: EVH mod ??????????
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2013, 04:23:43 pm »
Ive been wanting to try that one too. A little scared though. sure sounds insane to me. I think he might have been doing that during US festival years.  sounds like it.

Offline SILVERGUN

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Re: EVH mod ??????????
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2013, 07:40:44 am »
I was hoping that "the big brains" would weigh in on this one,,,so maybe try reposting it with a different title--" Resistor across OT PRIMARY?? "

Offline alerich

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Re: EVH mod ??????????
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2013, 08:05:35 am »
Here's an old thread on the Vintage Amps Forum where they wear the topic out:

http://vintageamps.com/plexiboard/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3579

The way I am reading it this creates a post power tube master volume.
Some of the most amazing music in history was made with equipment that's not as good as what you own right now.

Offline 12AX7

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Re: EVH mod ??????????
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2013, 12:10:11 pm »
This sounds like a version of a conjuntive filter.  Only that's a cap and resistor in series. Same thing as thhis mod cept for 2 things the way i see it....the CF is frequency dependant, and the resistor is a much higher value. If i recall on the order of 10k. So If i am right, wouldn't this be a safe thing to do DOWN TO A CERTAIN POINT of resistance ? In other words, with the CF how far down could you take that resistor value safely, and at that point or a bit further towards the safe end, would it cut the volume enough to make for a sort of "attenuator set on -8 DB" or something that would be just enough to make a 50 watt marshall more usable as volume goes? If so, that would be great. As for the cap in the CF, would removing that just allow the same effect except throughout the frequency range instead of just at the cap's range, or is there something else to worry about there?

Offline Ritchie200

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Re: EVH mod ??????????
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2013, 12:35:54 pm »
Before I read the link to vintageamps, I was thinking that this would actually be very easy on the OPTX - which Cerrem somewhat also said.  Thank goodness he came on and straightened out that thread! :laugh:  You lower the voltage going to the OPTX. Plus, the result will be a huge impedance mismatch to the "ideal" which will also bring down the volume.  I'm certainly not one of the "big brains" around here, but I do have some issues with some of his statements.  He is attributing this resistive load as being hard on the output tubes.  I don't agree with that.  As someone who has played around with many attenuators and many, many, many ($$$$$$$...) brands of tubes while torturing an amp that was already on the edge - I think he/they are missing the main point.  It's cool to talk about blowing this up and smoking this and that, because that's what Eddie said or (insert fav guitarist) did.  The bottom line is, if you play in your bedroom and small clubs, your tubes are going to last forever.  If you are running full bore freely into a cabinet(s), or choking it down with an attenuator, or a resistor network on the plates of the output tubes - the tubes are going to wear out, and fast.  Has nothing to do with some macho statement somebody made.  The tubes are just the switch.  The harder you work it, the faster it will wear out.  Does not matter what size bulb you have hooked up to it.

My very humble opinion and will freely go quietly into the west when someone with more knowledge comes on and calls me out....
Jim

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Can we have everything louder than everything else?

Offline SILVERGUN

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Re: EVH mod ??????????
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2013, 01:56:39 pm »
 If you are running full bore freely into a cabinet(s), or choking it down with an attenuator, or a resistor network on the plates of the output tubes - the tubes are going to wear out, and fast.  Has nothing to do with some macho statement somebody made.  The tubes are just the switch.  The harder you work it, the faster it will wear out.  Does not matter what size bulb you have hooked up to it.
My latest build sounds best cranked,,,(surprise? :laugh:)...2-EL34 w/ 390 on the plates and 4.2K pri. OT...I put in a PPIMV but it's only there for practice level purposes (takes all of the magic away when set below 6)....this amp will usually be on 8 and will serve as a lead only head in an A/B setup (so it doesn't have to be extremely reliable :laugh:, I'll always have another amp)

I'm going to try this stupid trick, because I'm a little stupid and I always like a good trick :embarrassed:... :m11... :grin:
Actually,, it's because I have a "Frankenstein" open in front of me and I'm not afraid to try anything....I'm not chasing the VH1 tone, but it does seem to be a by-product of where I have gone so far...I love that sound and wouldn't mind adding in a taste of that controlled///cranked feel

I'm going to begin with a 1K 20watt fixed resistor (but, I'm looking around the shop right now for a 500R rheostat   :wink:)

If you were going to try this, would you start by lowering the bias a little, to try to help "protect" the output tubes?,,,and what signs/voltage readings should I be concerned about to try to keep the tubes "in check" (beyond standard bias measurement)

The reason I was looking for an educated answer was to know what the detrimental effect would actually be on the tube  :dontknow:
I'm not trying to build a time bomb :icon_biggrin:
,,,just curious to know where the fire will start

Offline plexi50

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Re: EVH mod ??????????
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2013, 03:43:25 pm »
The EVH mod is one 55 gallon drum full of bee's,something to make them mad and good cab. :think1:

Offline SILVERGUN

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Re: EVH mod ??????????
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2013, 05:00:29 pm »
OK...I did it......waited til 5:00,,,punched out,,,and with ZERO hesitation, clipped in a 1K
Major reduction in output.....maybe half as loud (perceived) as it was before (probably better suited for a higher output amp)
Definitely compressed the tone and made the amp more playable,,,BUT I lost a lot of high end sparkle, and low end thump (similar to attenuator)

BUT, keep an eye on those resistors :huh:
My 1K 20W Ohmite took about 5 minutes of full volume playing to hit 170 deg. F (and that's on a fifty watt amp!)

I paralled a Xicon 1K 25W (to try 500R) and it took way too much volume away, but amp was even more playable and compressed (BUT, also lost more highs, and sounded muffled)...bias didn't budge, but tubes did begin to red-plate

So then I ran them in series, and that was the best demo for me with some of my sparkle back, and some playability gained, and a still noticeable drop in volume............maybe a cool touch to this amp?!?!?
Not sure where I'm gonna go with this, but at least I satisfied my curiosity, and can tell you nothing blew up, fried, or smoked...LUCKY ME :icon_biggrin:
I personally wouldn't go any lower than 500R resistance wise and would just buy the biggest wattage resistor I can find and fit.
This could be a fixed mod to add a cool touch to a very loud amp that has too much high end to begin with.

All in all, I would say, that if your going for VH1 tone, this might be 1 of the 20 things that you will have to do to get there :grin:
« Last Edit: January 18, 2013, 05:07:21 pm by SILVERGUN »

Offline Colas LeGrippa

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Re: EVH mod ??????????
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2013, 05:09:21 pm »
Quote
If you were going to try this, would you start by lowering the bias a little, to try to help "protect" the output tubes?,,,and what signs/voltage readings should I be concerned about to try to keep the tubes "in check" (beyond standard bias measurement)


I would start by a higher resistor, let's say 10k, 50watte , and it's effect on the bias. ( 1 ohm resitor bias metering trick ) and gradually I'd lower that resistor value ( rheostat you said ? )and see what it does.
I will definetly try this, being at least as crazy as you ( and prob. much more :laugh: )


Colas
Don't miss the Woodstock experience : ''FORTY YEARS AFTER'' at Club Soda,  in Montreal, august the 17th and 18th and october the 27th. Fifteen musicians onstage.  AWESOME !
P.S.: call me Alvin.

Offline SILVERGUN

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Re: EVH mod ??????????
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2013, 06:07:03 pm »
I will definetly try this, being at least as crazy as you ( and prob. much more :laugh: )[/color]
I would say that a good "middle of the road" mod would be a 1K 100W resistor to test...

Just keep an eye on the temperature, and get a power resistor that is meant to be heat sinked!

http://www.newark.com/te-connectivity-cgs/hsc1001k0j/resistor-wirewound-1kohm-100w-5/dp/16R5349
« Last Edit: January 18, 2013, 06:20:26 pm by SILVERGUN »

Offline alerich

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Re: EVH mod ??????????
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2013, 05:00:10 pm »
It does reportedly drop the volume a lot - supposedly the reason EVH then resorted to re-amping was to bring the volume back up. The variac is said to have then been used to drop the plate voltage and spare the tubes a bit. Using this method with the commercially available tubes in the late 70s is one thing but it may be a far cry from subjecting current production tubes to the same abuse. Why is placing a power resistor across the OT primary so fundamentally different from placing it across the OT secondary as many attenuators do?

Some of the most amazing music in history was made with equipment that's not as good as what you own right now.

Offline Ritchie200

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Re: EVH mod ??????????
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2013, 06:03:27 pm »
I would guess that the difference is with an attenuator, the OPTX still takes the abuse and may mush it up too much at the same "attenuation".  With this EVH mod, the resistor network is soaking up the juice from the plates.  With the reduced voltage on the OPTX primaries, it is feeling no pain.  Sounds like that unless you pull off too much, it retains the highs and crunch.  Maybe a little more transparent and gives a different character than the attenuator?  Kind of like the difference between a pre and post phase inverter master volume.

Jim

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Can we have everything louder than everything else?

Offline SILVERGUN

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Re: EVH mod ??????????
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2013, 07:05:09 pm »
Just for the record, there were a couple key items I left out of my last post...
I am using a Variac to drop the input Vac to 105, to get my plates to 390
I do think that the attenuator on the secondary side has a more detrimental effect on tone, than this mod
With the atten. there seems to be more of a flattening effect accross the entire freq. range, BUT with the mod, it's just seemed to roll off the highs and squash the lows....I would describe it as having a compressor after the power tubes......
I could feel the VH1 playability in there :icon_biggrin:
And don't get me wrong,,,it was a cool effect....it's just that my amp has already been voiced for max OD, so it just got mushed out,,,,but I could see this working well for a 100 watt head that doesn't have a ton of preamp OD
For me it just dropped the Volume too much and made my 50 watt head sound like a 10 watt, with the 1K in there,, at 500R it sounded like a 4 watt head (really that much attenuation).........BUT, if it turns a 100 watt screamer into a 20 watt singer,,,that would be cool

Sounds like that unless you pull off too much, it retains the highs and crunch.  Maybe a little more transparent and gives a different character than the attenuator?  Kind of like the difference between a pre and post phase inverter master volume.
Exactly,,,I wish I could better describe the difference in character,,,but what I can say is----I like the mod better than the attenuator  :thumbsup:

One other note,,,,I was using a half stack cab rated at 360 watts, and definitely felt like I wasn't pushing the speakers hard enough (with the mod in)....
I imagine that it would definitely sound better through 2 greenbacks, and I'll try it again on Mon night with my 2x12 ( g12h30 + Budda Phat 12) + report back

Offline Colas LeGrippa

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Re: EVH mod ??????????
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2013, 09:11:34 pm »
to avoid replating the power tubes, why not decrease the bias voltage to minus 100V or so...I mean I am curious to see what does this mod to the bias

Don't miss the Woodstock experience : ''FORTY YEARS AFTER'' at Club Soda,  in Montreal, august the 17th and 18th and october the 27th. Fifteen musicians onstage.  AWESOME !
P.S.: call me Alvin.

Offline SILVERGUN

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Re: EVH mod ??????????
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2013, 10:53:50 pm »
Colas, I see it this way.....in my own limited understanding...
Bias is a measurement of idle current....the bias did not change when I added the resistor because there was no significant increased load at idle
So to properly set the "bias" or control grid voltage, I would imagine the best way would be to have someone play through the amp at max volume, and you would then increase the - voltage until the tubes don't red plate anymore...... (without going too cold)

At that point the "bias" reading is irrelevant, because what you are really setting is the "max. load" current....
We will have to decrease the bias current, relative to the mod resistor value you use
The lower the resistor value, the lower the bias should be set to compensate for the increased load.
In the end, the overall setting will determine tube life........a little more glow = a little more magic tone = shorter tube life
But, by lowering the current, we will probably also see that we are loosing some of the effect that we were trying to achieve in the first place...
i.e..... you gotta light up some tube plates to get the magic, which means - that VH1 tone doesn't come cheap!......so buy your output tubes in bulk :icon_biggrin:

 :laughing4: That was an un-educated statement made by a guitar player who likes to imagine that higher output tube current = better tone  :grin:

I'm still waiting for a genius to come along and set us straight :wink:

Offline alerich

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Re: EVH mod ??????????
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2013, 11:29:45 am »
At the end of the day I have seen countless clips on You Tube and elsewhere of people who have copped pretty convincing EVH tones with little more than a Marshall Super Lead and some sort of attenuator. On this clip the guy is using the Ultimate Attenuator which is actually a signal tap with a solid state re-amping system. The power tube resistor array may be an accurate description of what EVH did back in the day but it seems like the destination is attainable through simpler means.

Eddie Van Halen Brown Sound with 1969 Marshall Super Bass / Super Lead

Some of the most amazing music in history was made with equipment that's not as good as what you own right now.

Offline Tone Junkie

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Re: EVH mod ??????????
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2013, 07:13:11 pm »
You have to admit that was pretty close.  I would be happy with that.
Bill
PS. Now only if I could play that good.
(LOL)

Offline Tone Junkie

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Re: EVH mod ??????????
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2013, 01:26:05 am »
Silvergun for us visual guys could you drawe a diagram of how you implimented it in your 50 watt than a similer one for 100watt.
Ive read it several times, I just cant see it in my mind yet.
Im dense pictures man (LOL).
Thanks Bill

Offline SILVERGUN

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Re: EVH mod ??????????
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2013, 08:03:48 am »
It may be irresponsible to post specific instructions, so I PM'd you a response.

Please be safe OR  :blob8:
« Last Edit: January 21, 2013, 08:31:45 am by SILVERGUN »

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: EVH mod ??????????
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2013, 11:45:25 am »
loook at this:

5. The Cerrem Resistor Mod

....

I'd like to try that on my 2204 clone, any idea how to perform that mod ?

What is your sonic goal, and how do you think this mod will help you achieve it? You should ask that question of yourself first, so you don't waste time changing things for the sake of changing them.

Reading the page you linked, Twistyneck said:
"What in the hell is Cerrem's Mod?" you ask. Before I answer, let's get a few things straight:

- Van Halen's self-titled first album has THE guitar tone.
...
- This killer guitar tone is often referred to as the "Brown Sound", and is really confined to VH's first album. After that, the tone changed."

Twistyneck seems to have done the Cerrem mod as a missing piece of parts values otherwise outlined in the thread, but not Cerrem also said:
"One other addition to the spec....The phase inverter capacator across the plates was a 100pF small flat round ceramic cap, it believe it said "ERIE 100pF"...THIS is critical as far as I am concerened with giving the "brown" sound and added compression to the highs....

The VH-1 session sound has a lot to do with the combination of JBL D-120 speakers used in one of the two Marshall cabs that recorded..the other cab being the green back pre-rola 25W..."

So anyway, they discussed a lot of parts values and whether things were unique in the amp EVH used on VH-1.

I went and re-listened to songs from VH-1 to hear what everyone is trying to copy. I noticed a few things apart from just the sound of the amp. It is apparent to me the engineer for the mixdown used quite a bit of compression on EVH's sound as picked up by the mic(s), definitely did a lot of EQ. It was very nice EQ to have a solid but un-muddy bass and minimize any high-end hash. Many songs also have the dry guitar in the left speaker and an interesting reverb with pre-delay panned to the right speaker.

I also noticed what sounded like flanging added in the mix (on songs like Ain't Talkin Bout Love). There may have been a pedal effect as well, but the way I'm pegging it as being added in the mix is that you can hear the reverb on the drums/drum overheads being flanged as well as the guitar.

I won't try to speculate what mics/preamps/mic placement/etc were used during the recording, which engineers select to sculpt the sound in the room in a desirable way.

What I'm getting at is that if you're chasing the sound on that recording, you'll be a little frustrated unless you are seeking to achieve the same thing in your own recording, because there are definitely things that were used which change the sound of the amp in the room into what you hear and enjoy on the album. That's because the amp was doing it's thing, then the mics and placement capture some part of that sound, and a number of further tweaks are done during mixing.

All that said (which I think you should read as serious disclaimers for why no mod will ever fully capture the sound), read below for what's happening within the Cerrem mod. I'll point out I didn't sit down and read beyond the first of the 10-page Vintage Amps post, so apologies if this duplicates info.

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: EVH mod ??????????
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2013, 12:17:26 pm »
This sounds like a version of a conjuntive filter.  Only that's a cap and resistor in series.

I know where you're coming from, but remember "filters" have to have something that's frequency-dependent. So this is similar in being applied to the OT primary, but different.

As Silvergun said, mostly this thing is just an attenuator.

Think of it like a cross-line master volume at the outputs of a phase inverter. Basically, + and - voltage signals are being combined to cancel each other out to some degree. I don't like Twistyneck's non-tech explanations of what's going on, but this is what he's talking about when he saying the tubes are fighting each other. Regardless, smaller resistor equals more + added to -, and less output voltage at the speaker so less volume.

The question I have for everyone thinking about doing this is that if a Hotplate (or some other external attenuator) isn't the magic bullet for you, why would this mod be better? If all this did was lower volume, we could say this mod is on equal footing with all other forms of attenuation.

Look at the chart attached. Along with reducing volume by allowing more voltage cancellation, the resistor across the OT primary changes the load impedance that each tube sees. Rather than try to analyze a specific amp/resistor combination, look at the trend that occurs as the resistor is made smaller (more attenuation).

If you look at the gridlines on the graph, they all wind up merging together around a plate voltage of 30v and below. Gridlines also bunch together and are more closely-spaced for a given change in gird voltage at low current (look how close the -20v and -25v lines are compared to the -10v and -15v). Where grid lines bunch together, you will get distortion. If the lines are bunched together (distorted) on only one end of the loadline, the distortion will be predominately even-harmonic; if the lines bunch together at both ends, there will be increased odd-harmonic distortion.

We can conclude that for lower values of load impedance, odd harmonic distoriton will be reduced and even harmonics will predominate.

Which seems like a good thing until you realize that push-pull operation cancels even harmonics generated in the output stage.

Look at the graph and note the dashed curve: this corresponds to voltage and current which results in 25w of plate dissipation. If the loadline strays above this curve, plate dissipation rating is being exceeded. If a small portion of the line goes above the curve, you might not notice redplating because it is a small percentage of the total signal cycle.

However, notice that as we keep reducing the load to the tubes by using this mod, pretty much all of the resulting load lines stay above 25w dissipation most of the time. This is why you get redplating, and why EVH had to use a variac to attempt to reduce the voltages in the amp. The lines drawn assume a 450v B+, and is why all lines converge at 450v, 0mA. If you reduce B+, these curves get shifted to the left to the new value of B+.

If we argue that the variac-reduced voltages as a result of redplating were a key part of the "brown sound" we could get that more safely with power scaling, VVR or some such technique. If we also assert that slamming a 100w amp with all controls at 10 is also key, we could reduce the volume if needed by using more conventional attenuation between the speaker and OT secondary.

Again, I'd argue we don't know for certain (maybe someone more knowledgable can say) EVH had to use attenuation in the studio, because volume from a 100w amp is generally not an issue.

I'll generally agree with those that would say nothing sounds like a 100w on 10 than a 100w on 10, even after trying every attenuator trick out there. This is why chasing the sound of a recording will usually leave you frustrated unless you are also making a recording and can duplicate the conditions of the sound you're chasing.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2013, 04:07:53 pm by HotBluePlates »

Offline SILVERGUN

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Re: EVH mod ??????????
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2013, 01:28:19 pm »
HBP,,,thanks so much for joining in here...
You have the exact credentials needed to make sense of this  :icon_biggrin:

I am mostly trying to determine the difference in the "perceived" effect of this mod vs. the use of an external attenuator,,,
and if one would be more detrimental to the output tubes than the other

My amp has a sweetspot around 8 and up on my PPIMV that sounds phenomenal, but is just a little too loud for my old ears

I'm wondering if this mod could be used as a permanent, fixed value, attenuator that would have less strain on the OT than one that is placed on the secondary  :dontknow:  (if it actually does wind up sounding better)......and also be less of a "tonesucker" than my PPIMV

I'm personally not trying to "copy" that sound, but instead use this mod (to a lesser degree) as a way to add some of that smoke to my own sound...
My intention would be to bump up to a 2K - 100 watt heatsinked power resistor....for approx. a -6db vol. drop (that's what it "sounds like" to me so far)

Thanks again for taking the time to help us out with this!  :thumbsup:

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: EVH mod ??????????
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2013, 04:18:40 pm »
So I'll say that without further thought or investigation, I don't see why a Hotplate or similar should cause any harm to your OT. If the amp was designed to take the abuse of being fully cranked without an attenuator wasting off much of the power as heat, then it should be able to handle it with the attenuator in place.

To me, the Cerrem mod looks like it will tend to redplate and kill output tubes, and the power supply may start blowing fuses because the low loads try to make the output tubes pass too much current. I assume a tube will give up first, but if things in the tube melt, you never know for sure the screen won't melt and touch the control grid and short the bias supply to the screen supply, which will try to kill one or both of those supplies.

Using a variac rather than a VVR or power scaling will cause tube filament voltage to drop, which will reduce tube Gm and plate current by some amount. Prolonged operation at very low filament voltages could cause the tubes to be permanently weakened, according to Getting The Most from Vacuum Tubes, although I've never personally had a situation which allowed me to verify that.

Dropping B+ by using a variac in many fixed-biased amps will cause the bias voltage to become more negative as well, idling the tubes closer to cutoff. Maybe this offsets the excessive plate current a little, and maybe it creates more intense distortion; it is amusing to me that this is the opposite of how many players think they like their tubes to run (less negative bias voltage and more idle current).

I think the tech who originally devised this trick came up with a novel way to make a 100w amp play at less than 100w of output power while being dimed, but didn't think through all the related problems. I think you can also get similar, or even more intense distortion (a la Appetite for Destruction-style circuits, Dumble-style, diode-bounding, VVR/Power Scaling, extra gain stages, etc), using methods that don't run the risk of tube or amp damage.

Offline sluckey

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Re: EVH mod ??????????
« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2013, 04:33:45 pm »
Hey, you guys keep burning them up. Then bring your woes to Hoffman's forum. Maybe we can help. And Doug needs a new pair of shoes!  :laugh:
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline Colas LeGrippa

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Re: EVH mod ??????????
« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2013, 08:00:28 pm »
HBP, we're not chasing EVH tone necessarily, we are all curious to see the level of attenuation and what sort of tone ( sort of firecracker :laugh: )we could get out of that mod.
VVR, power brakes or other attenuators, we all have tried them all. Don't tell us to buy a TOYOTA when WE GOT TO DRIVE a Ferrari. We've got to try it, at least, and it only can add something to our experience !

Colas
Don't miss the Woodstock experience : ''FORTY YEARS AFTER'' at Club Soda,  in Montreal, august the 17th and 18th and october the 27th. Fifteen musicians onstage.  AWESOME !
P.S.: call me Alvin.

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: EVH mod ??????????
« Reply #30 on: January 21, 2013, 08:16:40 pm »
HBP, we're not chasing EVH tone necessarily ...

Then why do a destructive mod because EVH did it?

VVR, power brakes or other attenuators, we all have tried them all.

I wouldn't expect this to be much better or different. There may be something funny going on with the negative feedback as a result of the reduced output voltage, but you could simulate anything that does by disconnecting the feedback in your amp.

... Don't tell us to buy a TOYOTA when WE GOT TO DRIVE a Ferrari. ...

Eddie's Pinto has turned into a Ferarri?

Unless you're only willing to do it exactly the way Eddie did, there's not much there this mod to make it preferable to other methods, and you do run the risk of tube destruction, and maybe electrocution if you rig the unsafe method Twistyneck showed (which he also went out of his way to point out as unsafe).

Give it a shot, but this cat has been skinned 50 ways before now (and some of our guys did quite a good job figuring out Mojave's power control by tinkering the phase inverter). Then again, I get excited reinventing other wheels that have been done many other times before.

Offline Colas LeGrippa

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Re: EVH mod ??????????
« Reply #31 on: January 21, 2013, 10:28:46 pm »
http://www.legendarytones.com/brownsound.html

According to this paper, EVH  was not using heavily modified guitar amps. A stock Marshall fed at 90V , dummy load and line level output to effect pedals and then a MOSFET amplifier.

HBP, why don't you talk more about LTP mods for power scaling purpose ? You talked about ( was that you ? ) hooking up a 100pF ceramic cap between the LTP plates. What about a pot to act as a variable resistor that'd replace the last LTP resistor?  (One thing I can say is that the 12AU7 is my beloved preferred tube for a PI since a loooooong time).

Colas
Don't miss the Woodstock experience : ''FORTY YEARS AFTER'' at Club Soda,  in Montreal, august the 17th and 18th and october the 27th. Fifteen musicians onstage.  AWESOME !
P.S.: call me Alvin.

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: EVH mod ??????????
« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2013, 12:22:20 am »
Replies #9 and #11 of the Archived Master Volume thread.

Offline Tone Junkie

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Re: EVH mod ??????????
« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2013, 01:51:22 am »
Replies #9 and #11 of the Archived Master Volume thread.
Thanks Hot blue plates, for me this isnt an exercise in chasing Eddy,s tone its about something that makes the amp have a differant sound to it.
I usually try these things see what it sounds like and go on . The best sounding amp Ive built that has the brown sound is a 6v6 plexi clone with lower B+ and a resonance mod. Crank it to 10 sounds close. The 100PF ceramic cap was a notable differance from the 47pf. I first tried a silver mica didnt like it as much as a 500v ceramic cap.
 
What were your thoughts on the  LTP mods for power scaling .

Maybe some of the other professional  builders here will chime in with some interesting ideas they have. You guys teach me alot
Thanks Bill
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 01:58:14 am by Tone Junkie »

Offline SILVERGUN

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Re: EVH mod ??????????
« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2013, 07:30:27 am »
Thanks again for all of your time and comments HBP,
I can say that I haven't seen that much of a difference in sound to justify the risk involved, although I haven't given it the full run of experimentation.

There's no reason for me to want to keep a "destructive" mod for the sake of having one, so I'll get back to this when I can,,,,,complete my experiments, and report back.

Good luck guys, and please be safe!

Just for the record,,,,in watching the video clip above,,,,the thing that stands out to me the most is that you can hear his pick hitting the strings almost as loud as the output of the amp,,,so he must be pushing about -20 decibels+ off of "stage volume" (that changes the game a little)

And we haven't mentioned the fact that the "Ultimate Attenuator" will set you back about $500
Add that to the Super Lead head for $1000+ and thats one seriously expensive VH copy bedroom amp  :icon_biggrin:

Offline 12AX7

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Re: EVH mod ??????????
« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2013, 10:49:26 am »
Replies #9 and #11 of the Archived Master Volume thread.

I would have never thought to raise the cathode R on the PI up as far as 57k to reduce it's gain. I will have to try that. Replacing the 1M grid R on the PI input with a pot is also intriguing ! I gotta stop reading this page....i've never stop soldering instead of playing ! :icon_biggrin:

Offline Colas LeGrippa

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Re: EVH mod ??????????
« Reply #36 on: January 22, 2013, 03:52:43 pm »
One easy thing to do to add a brown tone to a guitar amplifier is to switch from fixed to cathode bias.

Don't miss the Woodstock experience : ''FORTY YEARS AFTER'' at Club Soda,  in Montreal, august the 17th and 18th and october the 27th. Fifteen musicians onstage.  AWESOME !
P.S.: call me Alvin.

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: EVH mod ??????????
« Reply #37 on: January 22, 2013, 11:57:45 pm »
This sounds like a version of a conjuntive filter. ...

So you weren't wrong, and did note the conjunctive filter is frequency-dependent. So a little more detail on the filter thing...

If you're designing an output stage and draw a loadline, you (and everyone else) makes a simplifying assumption that the loadline is straight and behaves like a resistor of a set value.

I'm not gonna venture down the hellish road of elliptical loadlines for reactive components, so let's keep pretending it's a straight line. The problem for us is that speakers don't appear to be a fixed impedance at all frequencies because of the inductance of the voice coil and the free movement at its mechanical resonant frequency.

So an 8Ω speaker only looks like 8Ω at a small range of frequencies; above this range the impedance rises due to the inductance, and peak there is a big peak of impedance due to the bass resonant frequency. These areas of higher impedance tend to result in increased output from the amp at those frequencies. Also the high impedance is a flatter loadline, which results in more odd harmonic distortion and potentially bigger screen current by forcing the loadline to cross the 0v gridline below the knee of the curve.

This is a complex problem, and when feedback was discovered it greatly helped designers by allowing feedback around the output stage to linearize things. If output rises due to rising speaker impedance, that results in more feedback voltage and reduction of output. So everything's great.

I assume the conjunctive filter (or "corrective filter" in RCA tube manuals) was in use prior to the widespread use of negative feedback. Later, RCA would say the corrective filter is useful when global negative feedback can't be used. If increasing output with rising frequency is a problem, the old guys decided to reduce output with rising frequency.

So a resistor across the push-pull output can cancel some of the output; they didn't want all output to be cancelled, so they picked a resistor somewhat bigger than the plate-to-plate load impedance. The RCA manual suggests using a value of resistor about 1.6 times the plate-to-plate load impedance. I suspect you could make the resistor as small or large as you like.

To get the "with rising frequency" part, they add a cap in series. Now the filter across the OT primary has a falling impedance with rising frequncy to counter the speaker's rising impedance with rising frequency, and the resistor limits how far the resulting impedance can fall.

How big to make the cap?  :laugh: RCA's answer was basically "try and see." They said to use a cap which gave the same power output at 400Hz as with some higher frequency (like 10kHz). Not precise, but then again not all speakers would exhibit the same amount of impedance rise with frequency.

The problem with the conjunctive filter is it doesn't fix the boost as the bass resonant frequency, but feedback takes care of both extremes. That might not be a problem, as you could select a speaker with resonance well below the guitar range (like some 50-55Hz cones out there) and/or tweak the amp's bass response to offset any bass-boosting at the speaker.

But the other big difference is we're not talking about as severe a volume reduction with the conjunctive filter as with the EVH mod; the resistor value is typically much higher. Also, the conjunctive filter was really about reducing the distortion due to the increased load impedance.

 


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