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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: PP to SE  (Read 13835 times)

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Offline jeff

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PP to SE
« on: January 28, 2013, 09:41:41 am »
Kinda a theory question. This is based on my comparisons and observations between a cathode biased 6V6 PP VS 6V6 SE.

To go from PP to SE, ground one power tube's grid AND change speaker taps?

 First, you don't want to use a PP OT as a SE OT because of the way it's made the DC saturates it. BUT... if you have a PP OT and and one of the output tubes grid is grounded but still idleing each half of the primary still has the same "equal but opposite" DC and that's not a problem?

 Second, If the amp is AB then when you simply ground the grid of one power tube then the ON tube isn't reproducing the whole signal, Basically it isn't center biased? It's just doing it's half of AB?

Third, If the OT is a 8K CT, does this mean one tube "sees" 4K to CT and the other "sees" 4K to CT? Since the tube "sees" 4K it's not center biased. One tube doing mostly the positive the other does mostly the negative but neither do the whole signal and that's AB. If you want one tube to do all the signal you'd need a different primary load. Take the Champ for example uses a 7K primary. Ok, so 7K is the right load to reproduce the whole signal using one tube(class A). 4K will just do a little more than half. And in PP you're adding another tube with a 4K load with an inverted signal to get the other half, and the OT mixes them for the full signal(class AB).

Forth, OT impedance is reflecded and dependant on the load. So if you have a 8K:4 and plug in a 8 ohm speaker into the 4 ohm tap you basically have a 16K:8. And with a 16K OT each tube now "sees" 8K instead of 4K.

So this is what I'm thinking.
Ground the grid of one tube(DC is still ballanced so using PP OT as SE is not a problem but you're only using one power tube for amplification)
AND connect the 8 ohm speaker to 4 ohm tap(so now the ON tube "sees" 8K and is more center biased not exactally 7K but closer than 4K)

Does that make any sense, and am I looking at this correctly?
« Last Edit: January 28, 2013, 10:11:22 am by jeff »

Offline jeff

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Re: PP to SE
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2013, 09:49:35 am »
And if all that does make sense then if you had a PP with just a 4 ohm tap going to two 8 ohm speakers in parallel(or 8 ohm tap and two 16s) you could add a switch that both grounds one grid and disconnects one speaker.

So Bam! Two speaker PP to one speaker SE at the flip of a switch.

Just an idea. Please poke holes in it if I'm way off, that's how I learn.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2013, 10:12:37 am by jeff »

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: PP to SE
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2013, 08:32:38 pm »
To go from PP to SE, ground one power tube's grid ...

That only works if you have cathode-biased output tubes.

What will always work is to have a volume control for the one side you want to "turn off" then have a coupling cap from the wiper to the grid and grid reference resistor (often a 220k in cathode biased amps, or maybe a 100k in a fixed bias amp, which then runs to the bias voltage).

If you use a volume control after the existing coupling cap, then have a new coupling cap from the volume's wiper to a new coupling cap (which is 10 times the original coupling cap value), then you can have push-pull, single-ended or anything in between.

First, you don't want to use a PP OT as a SE OT because of the way it's made the DC saturates it. BUT... if you have a PP OT and and one of the output tubes [is] idling each half of the primary still has the same "equal but opposite" DC and that's not a problem?

As I've edited it, this is correct.

If you turn off the drive signal to one side, it continues to idle and that gives equal and opposite current through both halves of the primary at idle. Power supply hum cancels and the core doesn't tend to saturate.

Regardless, forget the "ground the grid" part. This is basically right when thinking about a.c., but implies the wrong thing with regards to bias. If you had a fixed bias amp and did this, the tube with the grounded grid has 0v bias and tries to melt itself.

Second, If the amp is AB then when you simply ground the grid of one power tube then the ON tube isn't reproducing the whole signal, Basically it isn't center biased? It's just doing it's half of AB?

You don't have to change the bias ... necessarily.

There is technically a difference between an amp that is designed from the ground up to be class A and a similar amp designed to be class AB. But for a small enough input signal, the driven tube does not cut off. Since class A is defined as a tube being on for the whole input signal cycle, you might call this class A operation.

What a designer does to make a class AB amp is generally raise the supply voltage and/or lower the OT impedance, and raise the amount of bias voltage. The tube is idled closer to cutoff, and a relatively small signal stays class A. For a bigger input signal, one side is driven to cutoff while the other side is turned on harder. The phase inverter is designed to be able to deliver this bigger signal voltage.

So when you turn off the drive to one side, you can't drive the remaining side but so far until you get sever distortion from driving the remaining tube hard into cutoff. But you know what? You wanted less output by running single-ended, so this isn't a problem.

Third, If the OT is a 8K CT, does this mean one tube "sees" 4K to CT and the other "sees" 4K to CT?

Yes, but only when each tube is conducting. When the tubes have a big enough drive signal that one side is driven to cutoff, the remaining side sees plate-to-plate impedance divided by 4, or 2kΩ for your example.

If you want one tube to do all the signal you'd need a different primary load.

If you wanted maximum output power, then you'd use a different load. But you don't want single-ended operation for maximum output power, cause that's what your push-pull setup was giving you.

So your best plan is leave the speaker load alone. Best load and biasing for maximum single-ended output power is probably irrelevant, because your supply voltage is likely too high. That would have been raised to give a boost to the push-pull output power.

Again, since the SE setting is probably for lower volume and a different sound, it seems pointless to try to optimize it to get another watt or 3.

Offline jeff

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Re: PP to SE
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2013, 11:07:41 am »
Thanks again for your time and explination.
I see what you're saying about fixed bias but this whole thought prosses was based on comparing a cathode biased PP VS a SE. I wasn't thinking fixed bias but I dig what you're saying(melting tube etc.).

OK pot, thats a good idea. I guess that's excataly what I was thinking but my switch was your pot at 0 or 10. Your right, a pots better because, like you say, you can dial in anything in between.

"There is technically a difference between an amp that is designed from the ground up to be class A and a similar amp designed to be class AB. But for a small enough input signal, the driven tube does not cut off. Since class A is defined as a tube being on for the whole input signal cycle, you might call this class A operation....So when you turn off the drive to one side, you can't drive the remaining side but so far until you get sever distortion from driving the remaining tube hard into cutoff. But you know what? You wanted less output by running single-ended, so this isn't a problem."

 It's not that I wanted less output. In fact it's just the opposite. I'm thinking big signal here. I'd actually be happy with the same power output, but I don't think that's possible. I was thinking not so much a power cut switch but a class switch(SE to PP). What I was playing with is the fundamental difference between a SEs 2nd order distorion(which comes naturally with one tube) and a PPs cancelation of that 2nd order distortion. I actually want as much power out of the SE operation as I can get. That's what led to the tap change idea. To optimize the SE mode as much as possible so when fully cranked I can get as much power as I can without losing half the wave running one tube into cutoff ("AB" with it's counterpart missing). But rather running that one tube "A" but getting as much out of that one tube as possible. That's why I was thinking disconnecting one speaker would change the load and allow me to get the most I can out of that one tube. But I'm not really sure how a PP OT reacts as a SE. If 8K CT is really the same as a 4K for each tube.

Know what I mean? I guess the coolest thing would be to switch two tubes from a PP to a parallel SE so there wouldn't be as much difference wattage wise. But that's a bigger can of worms.

Does that make sense? Not really a power switch but an operational switch. Fully optimized PP to fully optimized SE.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 11:32:30 am by jeff »

Offline sluckey

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Re: PP to SE
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2013, 11:36:23 am »
You may consider this simple balance pot. Works well for either fixed or cat bias. Set the pot to the middle for normal PP operation. Crank it up/down to disable one or the other of the PP tubes. Or set it anywhere in between if you wish. Works just like the balance control on your old classic stereo amp.
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Offline jeff

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Re: PP to SE
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2013, 12:10:28 pm »
OK I see what you mean with the pots(yours and HBP) But I guess I'm asking if I can have my cake and eat it too.

Will an AB amp with one tube "off" ever be the same as a SE amp or can it be made to be. Even though one tube is "off" the other tube is still thinking it's running "AB" right? It's still only doing it's share of the work.

 So is there a way to shut off one tube and re-bias the other tube? Either by actually rebiasing it to work with a 4K load, which seems more complicated to me, or by playing with the load to make that bias center biased. So that the one "on" tube is running the same as if it were a SE amp?

I guess to simplify it this is what I'm thinking.

If a PP uses an 8K CT OT each tube sees 4K
So if you kill the signal to one tube the other tube is now running SE with a 4K load
But if you built a SE you'd use an 8K load
So change the speakers to make that 4K half "look" like an 8K
Now you're running one tube SE with an 8K load.

Again I'm not concerned with power reduction, let's ignore output power for a sec. and focus more on optimizing the SE operation. It just seems to me that if you just kill the signal to one tube with either one of those pots you're not really making a SE amp. You're just running a PP with one tube "off". And the problem comes when you crank it.

Thanks for the help and patience to help me understand tubes better.
    Jeff
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 12:18:30 pm by jeff »

Offline PRR

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Re: PP to SE
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2013, 01:53:41 pm »
A class B amp can't do audio single-ended. Only half the signal comes out.

Class A works fine SE.

Class AB is inbetween. More than half but less than all the signal comes out. Efficiency is worse than A-SE.

Triode "push-pull with one side mute" is wasteful. The idle tube will absorb much of the active tube's output. With pentodes, not so bad.

The impedance matching is more complicated. Class A push-pull 6V6 can be loaded in about 8KCT. With one tube mute, the load on the other should be 4K. However half a "8KCT" winding is 2K. You should double the speaker impedance. However wide variations from "ideal" do little harm, but do change the SE amp's high-level "flavor" (the way it begins to distort). Some ear-tests may be the way to go.

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: PP to SE
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2013, 08:03:46 pm »
Will an AB amp with one tube "off" ever be the same as a SE amp or can it be made to be. Even though one tube is "off" the other tube is still thinking it's running "AB" right? It's still only doing it's share of the work.

No, it can only run class A, because there's only 1 tube.

The difference is that if you slam it with as large an input signal as you did the class AB output section, you will drive it to severe distortion. That's fine, because presumably, you want distortion if you're thinking about a single-ended stage.

What I was playing with is the fundamental difference between a SEs 2nd order distorion(which comes naturally with one tube) and a PPs cancelation of that 2nd order distortion. I actually want as much power out of the SE operation as I can get.

Do you already have a Champ, say, the blackface version? Is the sound really that different from bigger blackface amps aside from the volume?

You probably won't get very large amounts of even order harmonic distortion above about 6th harmonic. Harmonics are whole-multiples of the fundamental frequency. Refer to this pitch chart.

Let's say you're playing an open A (110Hz). 2nd harmonic is A 220Hz, 3rd harmonic is E 330Hz, 4th harmonic is A 440Hz, 5th harmonic is C# 550Hz, 6th harmonic is E 660Hz.

So the lower even harmonics are an octave of the fundamental, 2 octaves above fundamental and a 5th. The lower odd harmonics are a 5th and a 3rd.

If you were to actually play the even harmonic notes on the guitar along with the fundamental in the relative volumes they occur, they wouldn't really "stand out"... they kind of blend in with the fundamental note and add body.

Regardless, SE operation can result in both even and odd harmonic distortion when you use pentodes or beam output tubes. It's a good sound, but I don't feel like it's some nirvana (for me anyway). It's very easy to read someone's re-write of everything they've read and imagine it to be something it's not.

... let's ... focus more on optimizing the SE operation. ...

Optimize it for what, exactly? You want the one remaining tube to be all it can be (like it's in the Army in the 80's)?

Okay, kill drive to the push-pull section. Hook up one output tube to a SE transformer to avoid complications with dealing with the push-pull OT. Reduce the B+. Increase the load impedance of your new SE OT compared to using half the PP OT primary. Reduce the bias voltage to idle the tube at 100% dissipation while insuring the tube doesn't exceed its plate dissipation ratings over a significant percentage of the input signal cycle. Add some kind of voltage division between the phase inverter output and single output tube grid to reduce the drive to have a peak signal that does not significantly exceed the value of the bias voltage.

By the time you do all, that, you might as well have 2 completely independent output stages, one push-pull and one single-ended, with possibly two separate power supplies, and route the preamp signal to either the SE side or phase inverter and PP side. Better yet, just skip the headache, build 2 separate amps, and use an A/B/Y pedal to select either or both amps.

But that's the brute force approach. You get your cake and eat it too. You can also do like some folks and build a parallel SE amp with 6550's and enormous transformers. Or you can note that the sounds aren't that different at similar % THD and that push-pull class AB is almost entirely about how to wring more watts and more volume out of a pair of tubes.

Offline jeff

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Re: PP to SE
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2013, 08:20:59 pm »
Sorry I wrote and posted the above at the same time you posted yours so this is not a responce but I wrote it at the same time you wrote yours
That's my main consern maintaining the original "high-level flavor".
 
 If you had 3 identical Champs, one with a 2K load one with a 4K one with an 8K. Now crank it and put a sign wave into it. What I imagined is that you're not going to get 3 identical wave forms out, at different amplitudes but rather one severly clipped on one side, one mildly clipped on one side and one that looks exactaly like a Champ should. So it's not just power reduction but actually changing the sound("flavor" as you put it). I'm just wondering if there's a way to retain the original flavor.

OK so with one tube "on" using a 8K PP OT that one tube sees 2K(*).

So just as above where we were comparing our 3 Champs let's compare the Champs to a (cathode biased)PP with one tube "off".
I imagine just turning one tube "off" w/ a 16 ohm load in the 16 ohm tap would respond like the 2K Champ.
Turning one tube "off" and swapping the 16 ohm load to the 8 ohm tap would respond like our 4K Champ.
And turning one tube "off" and using the 16 ohm load on the 4 ohm tap pretty much respond exactally the same as our 8K Champ?
 
 They probally all sound good but I'm really asking to try to understand tubes better. HBP and Sluckey thanks for the solutions to the question I asked. I'm sure they sound great but I realize now the question I asked you isn't the real question I wanted to know the answer to. The heart of what I wanted to learn about. I'm just really interested in the theory more than the practice. I really should have asked this:

"How can we get a 8K PP OT to respond like a 8K SE OT?"
Take a Champ with a 8K OT
Remove the 8K SE OT and replace it with the 8K PP OT
Add another tube for the sole purpose of balancing the DC
(Let's not even worry about running it PP, no PI, ground the grid, that tube is never going to see a signal)
{ at this point do we have a SE Champ with a 2K OT? }
Hook up a 16 ohm load to the 4 ohm tap
{ now do we have a amp that responds like the original? }

The nerd in me wants to make the exact same thing using different parts not just an amp that you can reduce the power. Even though what you're suggesting is probally what the guitar player in me wants and needs and is more useful and practical.

(*)(Appologies to HPB sometimes I get wraped up in the first part of a responce and go off in a tangent responding to that and miss the whole of what you were saying, you did say 2K)

« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 08:27:47 pm by jeff »

Offline jeff

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Re: PP to SE
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2013, 08:23:19 pm »
Sorry I wrote and posted the above at the same time you posted yours so this is not a responce but I wrote it at the same time you wrote yours

Offline jeff

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Re: PP to SE
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2013, 08:32:29 pm »
"Better yet, just skip the headache, build 2 separate amps, and use an A/B/Y pedal to select either or both amps."

Yeah, you're 100% right. Sorry, that's me getting carried away again.

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: PP to SE
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2013, 09:05:04 pm »
If you had 3 identical Champs, one with a 2K load one with a 4K one with an 8K. Now crank it and put a sign wave into it. What I imagined is that ...

This is not technically correct. What happens is that one load will give maximum power output at some amount of distortion, and being single-ended it will be some mix of even and odd harmonic distortion.

If you shift the load to a lower impedance, you will get less power output, more even harmonic distortion and less odd harmonic distortion, all else being equal.

If you shift the load to a higher impedance than that for maximum power output, you will get less power output, less even harmonic distortion and more odd harmonic distortion, all else being equal.

The above is born out in the chart below, published in a datasheet, which assumes a single-ended output stage where the only variable is the load impedance. Ignore what tube it is, as all pentodes/beam power tubes follow essentially the same trends.

If you do what we described up top (turn off drive to one side of a push-pull stage), you will get less than maximum output power from the remaining tube, have more even harmonic distortion than "optimum conditions" (due to lower-than-optimum load), and will have reduced output power and possibly more distortion (again) because the bias puts the tube closer to cutoff.

If you use a pot like I suggested up top (and which was put forth by Kevin O'Connor of London Power), you can get push-pull, low-power (meaning not optimum for maximum power) single-ended, or in-between. The in-between points send unequal drive signals to each side of the push-pull output and result in less power from a push-pull stage and increased even harmonic distortion because the unequal drive signals result in unequal signal voltages in each half of the OT primary, so even harmonics do not cancel fully.

It's faster to try it and hear the effect, because you only need 1 pot (say, 1MΩ) and 1 cap (10 times the value of the existing bypass cap).
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 11:58:40 pm by HotBluePlates »

Offline jeff

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Re: PP to SE
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2013, 11:41:41 pm »
  I dig the 2nd unequal thing you're saying. Yeah, I got to try that pot. The other thing I'm thinking is that I have a 4 X 10" cab. Why don't I just shut up and wire my speakers up for 4 ohm 8 ohm and 16 ohm and actually hear for myself if I can even tell the difference between a 4K 8K or 16K load on my SE amp? I gotta stop being an egghead and actually hear the difference, not just think about it on paper and in theories.

Well I gotta go to bed now, but I'll take a good hard look at that tomorrow.
Just wanted to say thanks for the help. I always learn alot from you, and thanks for the patience.

 I do like your pot idea a little better than Sluckeys for a fixed bias amp only because I fear if the pot gets dirty and looses contact, as pots sometimes do, you lose your bias supply and melt yer tubes. In theory it's a good idea and I see how it'd work but I'm scared it has the potential of going being really, really, bad if the pot fails or losses contact. Also if the wiper is all the way down, doesn't one tube have a 500K grid resistor. I thought over 220K was bad.
 Maybe a 250K resistor to one tube and a 500K pot wired as a variable resistor paralled with a 500K resistor(= to 250K but using the resistor to protect from dirty pot meltdown) would be better since we really only have to turn one down and not one or the other?

Seems to me that maybe Sluckey's schematic is more of a "unmatched tube"ballance or PI ballance than an external control. A screwdriver set and forget trim pot and never intended for extreme swing but more for fine tuning at setup. More intended to be set to the range of 230K/270K or 240K/260K just to ballance output, but not ever meant for 500K/0K or the control panel. It seems like it'd be akward to even use, like it would go quiet to loud to quiet instead quieter to of louder which is why I think that. Dunno?

Thanks again to every one
 Jeff
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 02:19:10 am by jeff »

Offline sluckey

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Re: PP to SE
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2013, 11:55:36 pm »
Quote
I fear if the pot gets dirty and looses contact, as pots sometimes do, you lose your bias supply and melt yer tubes.
That's a concern for the bias pot in every AB763 amp that Fender built. For failsafe operation simply connect two 2.2M resistors from the wiper to each outer lug of the balance pot.
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Offline jeff

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Re: PP to SE
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2013, 10:48:44 am »
 I was thinking about this today. I guess I was thinking I wanted a SE power section and a PP power section at the flip of a switch. You know? I was saying I want chocotale OR peanutbutter and wasn't listening when you were saying "Why not try a reese's peanut butter cup?"

But here's my real hang up. I have three conflicting lines of thinking and I can't possibly see how they can all be true at the same time.

1) It's not that important to use the "correct" OT load
2) It's very, very important to always use the correct speaker load
3) Changing the secondary load changes the primary load and vice versa.

If we have a SE using a 2K:8 OT with an 8 ohm speaker plugged in don't we have essencially the same thing as a SE using an 8K:8 OT with a 2 ohm speaker plugged in?
So why is it "bad" to use a 2 ohm load in a 8 ohm amp but it's "OK" to use a 2K OT in place of a 8K in that same amp?

This is the part I need to understand which one, if any, of those three statements is false? The only think I can think of is 3 is false. If an OT is designed for an 8 you have to use an 8 and the primary doesn't(1) matter so 1 and 2 remain true. I mean, one of these has to be false, right? Maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way.

Thanks
 Jeff



« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 11:23:22 am by jeff »

Offline sluckey

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Re: PP to SE
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2013, 11:19:45 am »
Maybe it would help if you just accept the fact that the OT has no impedance of it's own. It is simply an impedance matching device.
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Re: PP to SE
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2013, 11:52:35 am »
1) It's not that important to use the "correct" OT load  < I agree.
2) It's very, very important to always use the correct speaker load < not gonna hurt anything if you connect a too-high load. Yet too high Z a load, in the hundreds of ohms or higher and you approach an open circuit. Optimal? Of course not. Now if you overload the OT with too low an impedance, you'll probably smoosh the output so that the sound is lousy, and too-too low-Z a load will look like a short. What is "important"? Important to accurately transmit the greatest amount of input energy to the output winding and hence the speakers? Or, important in the sense that we wish to avoid flaming things. Or, important in that "I love the sound".
3) Changing the secondary load changes the primary load and vice versa. < True.

Just as a suggestion, maybe zoom out the lens and think of the OT as just an energy transmission device within the overall scheme of things. It's like a car transmission. You would not be happy if 50 hp somehow disappeared into your vehicle transmission. Ideally, we'd like it to be transparent and magically change wiggles in the multi-hundred volt 25-60 ma world of the output plates to the types of wiggles the speaker likes to see. We paid all that money for the tubes and capacitors and we would like to see as much of the performance we paid for end up in the spkrs as possible, faithfully reproduced. To do that, the OT has to be carefully selected along the normal lines. If you are not aiming for Marantz-grade performance in your power output section and can live with or even welcome geetar amp distortion, you can tolerate departures. How far? Kind of depends on how much power we are talking about. If you hook a 2 ohm spkr  load to the 8 ohm output of an amp powered by quad 6550's and crank it, you are asking for trouble. I'd imagine you could be 100% off on any spec (except, obviously, something doubling the rated voltage in use)  and still get 'OK' sound out of the thing. Eg; 4 or 16 ohm speaker load on an 8 ohm tap; input impedance could be from 3K to 12K.


Offline jeff

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Re: PP to SE
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2013, 01:34:07 pm »
"1) It's not that important to use the "correct" OT load  < I agree.
2) It's very, very important to always use the correct speaker load
"

Maybe it would help if you just accept the fact that the OT has no impedance of it's own. It is simply an impedance matching device.
I fully accept that an OT has no impedance of it's own. That's why I don't understand this.
 
1) A mismatch on the primary is acceptable
2) A mismatch on the secondary is unacceptable(wrong speaker load)
3) The primary is determined by the secondary(an 8K:8 OT is a 4K:4 OT)

So why is it ok to replace a 8K:8 OT with a 4K:8 OT(rule 1)
But its not ok to use a 4 ohm speaker with the 8K:8 OT(rule 2)
When doing that makes the 8K:8 OT a 4K:4 OT(rule 3)?

Either way(relitivly speaking) primary ends up being 4K, weither you change the OT or change the speaker load.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 02:02:11 pm by jeff »

Offline sluckey

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Re: PP to SE
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2013, 02:36:06 pm »
Quote
1) A mismatch on the primary is acceptable
2) A mismatch on the secondary is unacceptable(wrong speaker load)
The mismatch is not on primary or secondary. The mismatch is BETWEEN primary circuit and secondary circuit.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline jeff

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Re: PP to SE
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2013, 03:25:06 pm »
The mismatch is not on primary or secondary. The mismatch is BETWEEN primary circuit and secondary circuit.

That's what I'm trying to say.

I'm trying to think of this like a see-saw
 Imagine you take the tubes and speakers out of your twin. Each set of tubes weighs the same as one speaker(just go with it). So you put four tubes on one side of the see-saw and two speakers on the other. Now the see-saw is level.

 Now, if you want to take two tubes out of your twin, we won't be level any more so we take off one speaker.

Isn't that the same impedance match?

 So if we're saying it's ok to have a mismatch, let's reset our see-saw. Four tubes two speakers. If you only take two tubes off and leave the speakers now the see-saw is at an angle heavier on the speaker side. The speakers weigh twice as much as the tubes. But that's ok. That mismatch, that angle is ok. What happens when you put the tubes back on AND add more 2 more speakers. The speaker side is still twice as heavy and you still have that same angle you had before that was OK.

Aren't those mismatches equal weither you remove tubes or add speakers? The ballance is still off by the exact same amount. Like you say,the mismatch is BETWEEN the primary and secondary. How high one side of the see-saw is compared to the other. Weither the primary is half as heavy OR the secondary is twice as heavy.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 03:29:07 pm by jeff »

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: PP to SE
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2013, 04:00:07 pm »
I have three conflicting lines of thinking and I can't possibly see how they can all be true at the same time.

1) It's not that important to use the "correct" OT load
2) It's very, very important to always use the correct speaker load
3) Changing the secondary load changes the primary load and vice versa.

That's because they are not all true, all the time.

A little bit of knowledge is dangerous. Trying to resolve complex situations with a little knowledge presented as a "rule" when it is too cumbersome to explain the why's and the limits of the "rule" is fraught with peril and frustration.

#3 is true all the time. Like PRR says, a transformer is a lever that makes a small wiggle (or voltage or current or impedance) on one side look like a big wiggle (or voltage or current or impedance) on the other side. This never changes.

The traditional goals of an audio power amp designer were to hit a target power output at or below a target amount of distortion. Listening to a song or a phone call with so much distortion you can't tell if the person is singing or coughing up phlegm was considered a thing to be avoided.

It can be mathematically and experimentally proven that with a set power supply voltage and pair of output tubes, that there is a broad but definite range where power output is at a maximum. It can also be proven mathematically and experimentally that even harmonic distortion tends to drop with increasing load impedance until some critical impedance where it begins to rise again, and that odd harmonic distortion tends to increase with increasing impedance.

As shown in the graph I posted above, there is a point where the amounts of even harmonic distortion and odd harmonic distortion are such that THD when each tube is considered separately is at a minimum. This is near, but not exactly at the point of maximum power output.

But push-pull operation cancels even harmonic distortion, allowing the load impedance to be reduced somewhat which would otherwise increase even harmonics, and concurrently odd harmonic distortion is reduced. The limit of going in the lower-impedance direction is that at some low impedance and with a given supply voltage, tube dissipation will be exceeded at idle or during signal conditions. If we stop short of that, we will arrive at some impedance where the tubes output maximum power at minimum total distortion.

At some point though, the load becomes too low for effective power transfer, and power output drops while the tubes redplate (yes, this seems like a contradiction but isn't if you think hard about it; more power input but less power output = tube dissipates more power as heat).

If you go in the higher-impedance direction, even harmonics drop until some point where they increase again, and odd harmonics increase steadily the whole time. The graph doesn't show extreme cases of higher and higher impedance, but the power output drops from the maximum power peak. If load impedance is very high, the loadline cuts below the knee of the plate curves, and screen current can be significant when the incoming signal is positive-going and plate voltage dips to a minimum. Screen dissipation might be exceeded. Further (and maybe more importantly), the large load impedance results is very big plate voltage swings for even modest plate current, kicking the plate voltage far above supply voltage. In the extreme case of an open-circuited load, inductive kick at the plate results in very high plate voltage spikes which might exceed the transformer's winding insulation.

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: PP to SE
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2013, 04:00:34 pm »
So very extreme cases of low and high load impedance (think shorted OT or open load) could result in tube or OT destruction. But even the graph shows a 5-to-1 ratio of usable load impedance. Depending on whether you're running SE or PP, you'll either get less power or more distortion or both when you move away from some optimum impedance that balances power output and distortion (with supply voltage and operating mode in mind). The optimum load is not necessarily the same in both SE and PP, though they are often numerically similar for the same supply voltage.

But low distortion and high output power for a given tube complement is/was a selling point. Would you buy a car with 12 cylinders and 8 miles-per-gallon which due to an eccentric design choice is only 110 horsepower?

What about paying for a pair of KT88's and getting a 5w parallel single-ended amp because the designer chose an odd supply voltage and load? Most consumer would notice they could buy a single-6V6 amp for very much less money that had apparently the same performance.

So I assert load impedance can be varied over a sensibly-wide range, and is not super-critical unless you need to meet power or distortion constraints for usually marketing purposes. I also acknowledge that if the load impedance changes too far from a reasonable center value that the amp could damage itself. I hope you'll see the range of acceptable variation is fairly large depending the limits you choose for power output and distortion.

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: PP to SE
« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2013, 04:02:51 pm »
Isn't that the same impedance match?

The designer chooses a desirable load impedance based on all the stuff I presented above.

The OT transforms the speaker load impedance to appear as some other primary impedance, in accordance with its turns ratio.

The only match that occurs is if the newly-transformed primary impedance matches the value of the load the designer selected as best.

Offline jeff

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Re: PP to SE
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2013, 04:14:21 pm »
The part I'm struggling with is it sounds like everyone's saying this:

"It's ok to use a 2K:8 OT instead of a 8K:8 but whatever you do, what ever you do, DO NOT USE  a 2 ohm load with a 8 ohm amp!!!"

And I can't figure out what's the difference between those two options?
How does the tube and the amp know the difference between those two situations?

« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 04:16:22 pm by jeff »

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: PP to SE
« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2013, 04:27:02 pm »
The part I'm struggling with is it sounds like everyone's saying this:

Most people repeat what they've heard without any true understanding of what they're saying. Sad, but true.

I know I was guilty of repeating what I'd heard/read without understanding too... until I learned enough to recognize the shortcomings in my original sources.

And of course I make mistakes or have gaps in my knowledge too. That's when Sluckey or PRR or someone else step in and straighten me out.

Offline jeff

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Re: PP to SE
« Reply #25 on: January 30, 2013, 05:24:38 pm »
 "The only match that occurs is if the newly-transformed primary impedance matches the value of the load the designer selected as best."

I guess what I was trying to say above maybe match was the wrong word.

Let me ask you this. If you pull two tubes and one speaker:
 Are the remaining two tubes doing exactally what they were doing when there was 4 tubes and 2 speakers?
 And as far as those two tubes are concerened has anything changed?

And by mismatch I meant just pulling two tubes and no speaker those tubes are doing something different than they were.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 05:26:44 pm by jeff »

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: PP to SE
« Reply #26 on: January 30, 2013, 06:35:58 pm »
"The only match that occurs is if the newly-transformed primary impedance matches the value of the load the designer selected as best."

...

Let me ask you this. If you pull two tubes and one speaker:
 Are the remaining two tubes doing exactally what they were doing when there was 4 tubes and 2 speakers?
 And as far as those two tubes are concerened has anything changed?

So you mean, for example, a 4-output tube Twin Reverb with 2 parallel 8Ω speakers for a 4Ω load. The we yank a pair of output tubes, and at the same time remove one speaker to have an 8Ω speaker load.

This is fine. The idea is that with the same supply voltage and bias, the tubes which are still in the amp are only capable of as much current as they passed in the original case. If you remove half the tubes (or half the current capacity), it makes sense to double the load impedance to the remaining tubes.

This is ohm's law. Let's apply some numbers: 300v/2k = 150mA among 4 tubes, or 37.5mA per tube. Assume you yank 2 tubes, and you keep the same voltage and bias conditions. The tubes should pass the same current per tube as in the original case. 37.5mA * 2 = 75mA. What impedance will allow this to be the case?

300v / X = 75mA
X = 300v / 75mA = 4000Ω

Double the load impedance we had to start with.

Since we assume there is only one secondary tap as is true with a stock Twin Reverb, you can only double the primary impedance by doubling the speaker load. The same OT has the same turns ratio, so doubling the speaker load impedance reflects double the primary impedance.

And by mismatch I meant just pulling two tubes and no speaker those tubes are doing something different than they were.

I follow what you're saying.

I'll turn it around; you tell me what value you want to switch the primary impedance to when you switch over from push-pull to single-ended. Don't forget to tell me what primary imepdance you started with in push-pull, and why you chose the value of impedances for push-pull and single-ended operation.

I mean, if there is a magic number each should be, you tell me what it is and why.  :icon_biggrin:

Offline jeff

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Re: PP to SE
« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2013, 08:14:27 pm »
OK the whole story, here goes.

 First of all my "magic numbers" are what I see in my Fender schematics. Those are tried and true designs so they are my best bet for not blowing something up and I don't want to stray to far from that. If I can I want to get exactaly, or as close as I can get, to what's on that Fender schematic.

 OK, So...I had a transformer. I made a PP amp copying a Fender design which called for a 8K load. I assumed that 8K was "correct"(tried and true,won't blow up) for those voltages and those tubes. That's what this amp calls for that's what I'm gonna use. BUT>>> I didn't have a 8K:8 PP OT. What I did have was a 4K:4 PP OT. I used a 4K:4 OT with a 8 ohm speaker so I believed I was pretty much using an 8K load. Which is why I been freakin' out about the 3 rule thing. And wondering if there's there something wrong with using an 8 ohm speaker in a 4 ohm OT and is that the same as a 8K load or is there some reason this is bad, I don't understand why this is wrong, etc.etc,etc.

 So basically that's that. I used a 8K:8(4K:4) PP OT because I had the part and I found a Fender schematic that called for an 8K.

 Next, Why the PP to SE? I'm trying to simplify my life and sell some amps. So instead of keeping a 6V6 PP amp AND a 6V6 SE amp, I thought wouldn't it be cool if I could have one amp that did both. I was thinking is there a way to rewire or switch this PP to a SE.

 Why the magic number 8K for the SE?
 I'm stuck with the OT I have and have to work around that. A 8K PP OT. To me that meant 4K to each tube(although now you taught me that's really 2K to each). Seeing as my SE amp uses a 7K I thought 8K would be closer to "correct"(tried and true 7K) than 4K(2K really). I can't change the turn's ratio of my OT but I can change the load by changing speakers, I can double or half the load. And unless I can do some kakamaime wiring and get 14 ohms with 4 8s(reflected 7K) 8K is as close as I can get with what I have. So that's really it. I was thinking If I use two 16 ohm speaker for an 8 ohm load I will have a 8K PP load(tried and true). And if I disconnect one speaker then I'll have a 16K PP OT which I thought was the same as a 8K for one tube(really 4K) Again as close to tried and true as I can get.

 Finding out that one tube is really 1/4 not 1/2 the PP OT really through a wrench in the gears and realizing that meant 2K instead of 8K for my one tube SE was way out of my "tried and true, won't blow up" comfort zone. And not understanding why swapping speaker loads to bring it up to 8K wouldn't work.

So that's really it had a OT, found schematic with similar part, made an amp, tried to make a swiss army knife, want to stay as close to spec as I can, and I thought I could get there by playin' with the speakers

 Jeff

« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 08:18:03 pm by jeff »

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: PP to SE
« Reply #28 on: January 30, 2013, 08:49:54 pm »
First of all my "magic numbers" are what I see in my Fender schematics.

That's fair. I just need to know if/why you're hung up on a particular number.

I made a PP amp copying a Fender design which called for a 8K load. ... BUT>>> I didn't have a 8K:8 PP OT. What I did have was a 4K:4 PP OT. I used a 4K:4 OT with a 8 ohm speaker ...

Perfectly valid, and yes a 4k:4Ω transformer, with 8Ω of speaker attached to the 4Ω tap reflects a primary impedance of 8kΩ.

... wondering if there's there something wrong with using an 8 ohm speaker in a 4 ohm OT and is that the same as a 8K load or is there some reason this is bad, I don't understand why this is wrong, etc.etc,etc. ...

Nope, it's fine. Anyone telling you otherwise is mixed up.

Next, Why the PP to SE? I'm trying to simplify my life and sell some amps. So instead of keeping a 6V6 PP amp AND a 6V6 SE amp, I thought wouldn't it be cool if I could have one amp that did both. I was thinking is there a way to rewire or switch this PP to a SE.

 Why the magic number 8K for the SE?

Here's a secret: it just so happens that with the voltages Fender used in the push-pull 6V6 Princeton they used an 8kΩ plate-to-plate primary, but they also used an 8kΩ primary in their Champs and VibroChamps (or near-enough).

Finding out that one tube is really 1/4 not 1/2 the PP OT really through a wrench in the gears ...

And this is incomplete, and is a false assumption that's got you spun up.

For a push-pull output stage, while both sides are conducting, each side sees plate-to-plate impedance /2. So for your 8kΩ  plate-to-plate, each side sees a 4kΩ load. Why? Because that side sees the half of the primary between its plate and the B+ at the center-tap, so only half the total. This is also true of a class A output stage, because neither side cuts off.

When a Class AB push-pull output stage has a large enough input signal, such that one side is driven to cutoff, the remaining side sees plate-to-plate impedance /4. It basically passes the quantity of current for both its side and the cutoff side. This can be proven mathematically using transformer theory, but take my word that this only occurs during a portion of the time the opposite side is in cutoff. So for your 8kΩ  plate-to-plate, the conducting side sees a 2kΩ load during a portion of the signal cycle.

If you do what you planned from the beginning, keeping the non-driven side passing idle current to enable you to use the PP OT, the idling side is never at 0mA plate current, and the "SE side" sees plate-to-plate impedance /2.

If you're dying to give the SE stage your presumed perfect load of 8kΩ, you'll need to double the speaker impedance compared to what you have when you're running the same OT in push-pull mode. However, London Power (Kevin O'Connor's company) has produced amps for years, maybe more than a decade, wherein they do not bother with such switching or "matching". They label the control "Body" on the London Power Standard, and sell the mod (consisting of a pot, a cap and instructions) as the "PP-to-SE mod."

Do what you like, experiment, but know that it is not as critical as you're thinking.

Offline zendragon63

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Re: PP to SE
« Reply #29 on: January 30, 2013, 10:29:31 pm »
Great discussion. Thanks jeff; you ask theoretical questions that many of us only think of asking and consequestially struggle or remain ignorant longer than we need to. That said, if the theory is explained and understood, there is the practical application aspect to consider. While it might be exactly what you want to unltimately chase--matching PP to SE loading on the fly (I think that was where you were going), the KOC inspired body control gets you close enough with one pot and a resistor. Because I didn't see this elsewhere in the thread, I attached only for a visiual--it works well and I and I can assure you that the difference in volume is not all that noticable and the increase in even order harmonics are noticable and a nice flavor.

Thanks for a great explanation HBP. Regards

dennis
Knowledge is what you get when you read the fine print; experience is what get when you don't. I am, therefore, experienced.

Offline jeff

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Re: PP to SE
« Reply #30 on: January 30, 2013, 10:33:54 pm »
OK thanks for the help.
 It's just my first thought was the switch(not even thinking of a pot) which led to- if I'm using a STDP might as well just use a DPDT and kill a speaker at the same time. So it was like, why not get the SE mode to 8K? I didn't want to run it with a 4K only because using a 4K load is exactally the same thing as plugging a 2 ohm load into my 4 ohm Champ and I was told never to do that.

 But if you're reassuring me that it's OK to use a 2 ohm load in a 4 ohm Champ, which I'm starting to accept(now that I think about it, even Fenders had EXT. SPKR. jacks which was just a jack in parallel with the speaker), then I see no problem with using the pot.

Thanks again for the education
 Jeff.

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: PP to SE
« Reply #31 on: January 30, 2013, 11:47:52 pm »
I didn't want to run it with a 4K only because using a 4K load is exactally the same thing as plugging a 2 ohm load into my 4 ohm Champ and I was told never to do that.

 But if you're reassuring me that it's OK to use a 2 ohm load in a 4 ohm Champ ...

Now I see what you caught grief about the speaker thing. You're saying it backwards/thinking about it backwards.

A transformer is just 2 or more coils of wire. D.C. resistance is low compared to stated impedance. The coils have inductance, but that doesn't directly relate to the impedance of the transformer in a way easy for you to use.

So the only solid, defined impedance in this equation is the speaker. The primary impedance is not real or anything that changes unless you change the speaker to create a different primary impedance by the effect of the turns ratio.

The tube's plate resistance doesn't enter into the picture when considering primary impedance, at least with pentodes/beam power tubes.

So it's not a 2Ω load on a 4Ω Champ created by driving one side of an 8kΩ PP transformer... It's you choosing to attach an 8Ω speaker to the 4Ω tap of a 4k:4Ω OT, which then reflects 8kΩ plate-to-plate, but only half of which is being used because you're only applying a signal to one side of the push-pull output to get single-ended operation.

If you want an effective 8kΩ half-primary in the 4k:4Ω OT you described, connect a 16Ω speaker to the 4Ω tap.

My point in all the info to show why that is not a critical step to do is not to say you cannot do it, but that changing the speaker along with changing the drive from PP to SE is a needless complication.

In general, when folks worry too much about the fine details, they imagine that overly-complex circuit arrangements are needed. You can switch speaker loads to cause different primary impedances to be reflected, in either push-pull or single-ended mode; you simply don't have to do that in order to make it work and work well.

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Re: PP to SE
« Reply #32 on: January 31, 2013, 12:17:44 am »
Compare and contrast your two statements:

> what I see in my Fender schematics. Those are tried and true designs so they are my best bet

> I thought wouldn't it be cool if I could have one amp that did both. ... PP to a SE.


Now list all the Fenders with an SE-PP switch.

(Heck, list any SE-PP amp you can find.)

No Fenders. Few others.

I'm not saying it "proves" this is a bad idea. Fender didn't try or do everything (and not all his ideas caught-on). But it is suggestive.  

Offline jeff

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Re: PP to SE
« Reply #33 on: January 31, 2013, 10:43:04 am »
"So it's not a 2Ω load on a 4Ω Champ created by driving one side of an 8kΩ PP transformer... It's you choosing to attach an 8Ω speaker to the 4Ω tap of a 4k:4Ω OT, which then reflects 8kΩ plate-to-plate, but only half of which is being used because you're only applying a signal to one side of the push-pull output to get single-ended operation."

I think I was being unclear again. I wasn't saying that what we're doing is ataching a 2 ohm load to a 4 ohm Champ. I was trying to use that as an example. "E.I. if it's ok to change the load, If it's ok to use a 2ohm load in a champ, If it's ok to use a 8 ohm in a 16 ohm marshall, if it's ok to use...etc." Meaning OK I'm coming to terms with Impedance isn't as critical as I thought. Not that what were doing IS using a 2 ohm load in a 4 ohm Champ.

 You know? I was just saying, If it's ok to do that I'm fine doing what we're doing.

"If you want an effective 8kΩ half-primary in the 4k:4Ω OT you described, connect a 16Ω speaker to the 4Ω tap."
Exactaly, That's what I been trying to say, Take a 4K:4 use two 16 in parallel for 8 for PP(8K:8) disconnect one for SE(16K:16 but only using half for SE) That's pretty much what I was saying in my 2nd post. So I think I understand you. I think I just have trouble communicating what I mean.

 

« Last Edit: January 31, 2013, 10:52:44 am by jeff »

Offline jeff

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Re: PP to SE
« Reply #34 on: January 31, 2013, 11:50:38 am »
I'm trying to clear up some of those miscommunications and see if the problem is that I don't understand what's going on or if I just don't know how to communicate that.

Let's see if I got it right.
 The impedance of the speaker, modified by the impedance ratio of the OT, presents a load to the tube.
That load can be changed by either using a different impedance ratio(switching taps) or by using a different speaker impedance.
So if you have an OT with a ratio of 1K:1 and use a 4 ohm speaker you present the amp with a 4K load.
  If that OT has 4 and 8 taps then the imp ratio of the 4 is 1K:1 and the imp ratio of the 8 is 500:1
  So by using a 4 ohm load in the 8 ohm tap that 4 ohms is modified by 500:1 not 1K:1 and the amp is presented with a 2K load.

And there really is no such thing as a 4, 8 or 16 ohm tap. If an OT is marked 8K:4,8,16 that only means if the speaker with that impedance is plugged into that tap the total load presented to the amp will be 8K. The impedance ratios of those taps are 2K:1 1K:1 and 500:1. So plugging your speaker into the "wrong" tap is just as valid as changing the impeadnce of your speaker load(either by adding speakers or swapping values)

 So what I'm asking is, if you have an amp with a 8K load presented to the tube, and you want to change that load to 4K you can do it two ways but you're really doing the SAME THING so one CAN"T be more dangerous than the other.

 Remove the 8K:4 and replace it with a 4K:4.
or plug the 4 ohm speaker into the 8 ohm tap.
Either way is the same because you are still using a 4 ohm speaker and a 1K:1 impedance ratio.

An 8K:4,8,16 OT is just labeled that way for our convienence. it could also be called a 4:8K,4K,2K transformer. There's no such thing as a "4ohm" tap or the "wrong" tap.



Offline jeff

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Re: PP to SE
« Reply #35 on: January 31, 2013, 12:03:28 pm »
I think a lot of my communication problem was me saying MATCHING. What I was trying to express was matching the schematic, presenting the amp with the same load as before or that I wanted to see not matching what the tubes wanted to see. To me a 8K:8 with a 4 plugged in and a 4K:8 with an 8 plugged in are matching. not because the tubes "match" the speaker, but because the schematic calls for a 4K load and those are both 4K loads. Like: "That's a match, The first ones a 4K, the second one s a 4K the schermatics call for a 4K. These all match". Nothing at all to do with the operation point of the tubes or how the load effects the performance or power etc. You know what I mean?

I do realize sometimes I have difficulty communicating what I mean. Does that make sense?
« Last Edit: January 31, 2013, 12:07:03 pm by jeff »

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Re: PP to SE
« Reply #36 on: January 31, 2013, 02:35:03 pm »
 OK so this is what I'm gonna do. I'll wire up a switch(I'll use a pot later this is just easier right now because I have one and I don't have a pot. Plus I have a hole for the switch. Wonder why no one makes a switch that fits in a pot's hole, it's either too big or too small, seems like that would be useful. Oh, well that's a different story).

So take a DPDT on-on-on switch(the kind where it's up/up, one side up/one side down, or down/down)

UP is                                 NC / 2nd speaker connected for 8 ohms(8K PP)
Mid is Ground grid(cathode bias) / 2nd speaker connected for 8 ohms(4K SE)
Down is                  Ground grid / 2nd speaker disconnected for 16 ohms(8K SE)

 When I do get a pot:
 I don't have a cap 10X bigger than my PIs cap, but just to be sure I understand you correctly, I only need that if I have a fixed bias amp, right? That cap allows you to ground the signal to one tube but blocks you from grounding the bias to that tube. If it's a cathode bias amp I don't need that, I simply replace one of the power tubes grid resistors with the same value pot, right?

Thanks
 Jeff

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: PP to SE
« Reply #37 on: January 31, 2013, 10:09:14 pm »
Let's see if I got it right.

Everything correct, just be sure you understand the difference between turns ratio and impedance ratio. As you used the term "ratio" you were consistent throughout with referring to impedances, so you were correct through.

Impedance ratio is the square of turns ratio. Turns ratio is the physically ratio between the number of turns on the primary vs the number of turns on the secondary. Voltage is transformed (stepped up/stepped down) by the ratio given by the turns ratio. Current is transformed stepped down/stepped up) by the inverse of the turns ratio, or in the opposite manner as voltage.

But you were right in all your conclusions.

I don't have a cap 10X bigger than my PIs cap, but just to be sure I understand you correctly, I only need that if I have a fixed bias amp, right? That cap allows you to ground the signal to one tube but blocks you from grounding the bias to that tube. If it's a cathode bias amp I don't need that, I simply replace one of the power tubes grid resistors with the same value pot, right?

Yep, that is why the cap is used. The value is 10 times bigger than the existing cap to keep from interacting with the existing cap and rolling off more bass. And for a cathode biased amp, you can just replace the grid reference resistor with a pot of the same value.

So you've got it all down!

Offline tonepumpamps

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Re: PP to SE
« Reply #38 on: February 01, 2013, 05:30:03 pm »

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: PP to SE
« Reply #39 on: February 01, 2013, 06:46:03 pm »
Here is a link that might prove useful.
http://www.ampbooks.com/home/amp-technology/amp-patent-7173488/


Good link; I've seen this before, but that demonstrates the concept.

I would like to point out Randall Smith filed for this patent in mid-2004, well after (maybe years after) Kevin O'Connor already made this technique known again by publishing books with it, selling mods, etc.

I have zero respect for any patent Randall Smith has his name on, since he seems to patent switching arrangements and try to make it seem like the whole approach is protected. So he can go f&^k himself.



[Apologies for Mesa fans; please enjoy your amps. I can't stand a man who seems to evince a lack of honor and credibility in his actions. Perhaps I am too judgmental on the issue.]

Offline Willabe

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Re: PP to SE
« Reply #40 on: February 01, 2013, 07:39:13 pm »
[Apologies for Mesa fans; please enjoy your amps. I can't stand a man who seems to evince a lack of honor and credibility in his actions. Perhaps I am too judgmental on the issue.]

Nope, your not.

I've seen a number of his pattents and he's full of bull. Many off them are right out of RHD bible.


               Brad      :icon_biggrin:

« Last Edit: February 01, 2013, 07:43:15 pm by Willabe »

Offline jeff

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Re: PP to SE
« Reply #41 on: February 01, 2013, 08:10:23 pm »
 Not to defend the guy or anything but is it possible that he indepentantly arrived at this, was foolish enought to think that he was the first and only guy to come up with it, and the patent office simply gives out patents way too easily?
 Maybe just a case of parallel thinking, I mean, I almost thought I was comming up with something new when I got the idea. I wasn't so nieve to think no one ever thought of doing this before, I knew it was probally already done before by sombody, but it is possible this guy honestly thought he invented it and left it up to the patent guys to tell him if it ever was or wasn't done before. Or is it more a case of: "If I can get the patent office to give me a patent, I'll have the edge, my amps will stand out and no one else can use it, and I'll rule the amp world! I'll make one billion dollars. Mmmwwwuuuuha, Mmwwwuuuuhaaaahaaa, Mmmwwwuuuuhaaaaahaaaaahaaaahaaaaaa!!!!!"

Clueless egomaniac or soulless evil genius :dontknow:
« Last Edit: February 01, 2013, 08:19:38 pm by jeff »

Offline smackoj

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Re: PP to SE
« Reply #42 on: February 02, 2013, 07:14:15 am »
<A little bit of knowledge is dangerous. Trying to resolve complex situations with a little knowledge presented as a "rule" when it is too cumbersome to explain the why's and the limits of the "rule" is fraught with peril and frustration> HBP

Hot Blue you are my hero and I think Philosophy 202 prof.  I've been so sick with the flu for ten days I can't hardly laugh, but you saved me from total medically induced depression. Now I am fraught with laughter. Not because I am laughing at anyone but myself, the poster child for "trying to resolve complex sit. with 'little' knowledge"....anyway, I am only commenting to say BIG thanks.

smacko jack     :icon_biggrin:
« Last Edit: February 02, 2013, 07:24:26 am by smackoj »

Offline Willabe

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Re: PP to SE
« Reply #43 on: February 02, 2013, 07:31:18 am »
but it is possible this guy honestly thought he invented it and left it up to the patent guys to tell him if it ever was or wasn't done before.

Nope.

He's been working on amps since at least the 1960's. He knows what's been done before and has certainly read the RCA bible.


             Brad     :icon_biggrin:

Offline jeff

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Re: PP to SE
« Reply #44 on: February 02, 2013, 11:21:53 am »
So evil genious then?

 "I'm not the first guy who thought of it, but I am the first guy to think somehow it's morally right to patent a well known circuit as long as I can get away with it. As long as I get to the patent office first, my company will be the only one who can "legally" use this known circuit. Na-na na-na boo-boo." Gotta love the law.

I'm gonna go see if I can get the patent on the 1/4" jack! I'll make a killing! :l2:
« Last Edit: February 02, 2013, 11:31:32 am by jeff »

Offline Willabe

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Re: PP to SE
« Reply #45 on: February 02, 2013, 12:03:45 pm »
So evil genious then?

I'm not so sure about the genious part.


            Brad     :think1:

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: PP to SE
« Reply #46 on: February 02, 2013, 03:33:44 pm »
"I'm not the first guy who thought of it, but I am the first guy to think somehow it's morally right to patent a well known circuit as long as I can get away with it. As long as I get to the patent office first, my company will be the only one who can "legally" use this known circuit. Na-na na-na boo-boo." Gotta love the law.

I'm gonna go see if I can get the patent on the 1/4" jack! I'll make a killing! :l2:

It's more like: it'll cost the little guys too much money in legal fees to enter a patent fight, even if they should be able to eventually prove my patent was "prior art" (meaning a pre-existing, commonly known technique).

Be careful about your switches: It seems Randall patented the switch to use to switch between several sets of output tubes (as in the Mesa Blue Angel) to change output power.

What he's doing is taking someone else's clever idea, seeing if it's already been patented. If not, he patents it, then he could prevent anyone else from using it without paying a licensing fee. For someone else's idea... That was already published to the public domain...

Offline Willabe

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Re: PP to SE
« Reply #47 on: February 02, 2013, 03:39:52 pm »
It's more like: it'll cost the little guys too much money in legal fees to enter a patent fight, even if they should be able to eventually prove my patent was "prior art" (meaning a pre-existing, commonly known technique).

Yep. Nasty way to do business.


                    Brad    :icon_biggrin:

Offline JPK

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Re: PP to SE
« Reply #48 on: February 02, 2013, 05:20:22 pm »
Good read. I really have never thought so much about the power tube, OT, and speaker untill I read all this.

I wonder if Randall patented the on/off switch on guitar amps? Man to have to unplug it every time would not be fun.
I love tubes

Offline jeff

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Re: PP to SE
« Reply #49 on: February 03, 2013, 02:17:38 pm »
 Yeah, It really sounds like that's what he's doing. Here's one "prior art" schematic, here's another. This guys patening a switch to go from one to the other?

 That's just as stoopid as patenting the pickup selector switch. Not the actual physical switch(e.i. it's construction, size, etc.) but the idea of using a pickup selector switch to go from bridge to neck pickup. Legally preventing anyone else but him from selling a guitar with a pickup switch. A switch!!! The simplest way possible, the most common sense, no brainer idea, to change from your neck pickup to your bridge pickup.

 So legaly you can sell a guitar with to pickups. Legaly you can have that guitar go from bridge PU to neck PU. But legaly you can't use a switch. Legaly you either have to use a blend pot or turn one volume down and the other volume up.

If that's really what it is, that's disgusting and I agree "....he can go f&^k himself."
 This morally offends me, Someone should start a petition to nullify this patent, I'd sign it.
 JOHN HANCOCK style!!!!
« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 02:51:54 pm by jeff »

 


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