OD built in or pedal in front of amp...PLEASE VOTE

[SILVERGUN]

Just wondering what the concensus is on this one....
I started my latest build because "I thought" it would be most impressive to build all of the overdrive into the amp. And I pictured that as being the "purest" form of OD, which would equal the "best tone". I think there are a lot of hard rock players, like myself, who believe that this is "the answer"
When I look around, it seems like guys like to build amps and then put pedals in front of them (and I find that confusing  )
It does seem like the tried and true technique of putting an OD/Distortion pedal before a well designed "clean" amp does yield a very desireable tone, but I question the logic.....

Just figured I'd throw this out there to a bunch of guys who know what they are doing and see what results I get

THANKS FOR TAKING THE TIME TO VOTE 

[Ed_Chambley]

SG, I cannot vote as there is no selection describing how I use them.  I will vote anyway, but in front of the amp is where I use mostly, but it is all according to what I am doing.  I can say I do not use Overdrive in a loop.  If I make the amp, usually overdrive is in it, but if it is a collectable I will not do it.

[Searing]

In front of the amp.  In an effects loop in the guitar!

Chris

[Cups]

A guitar amp in the "sweet spot" and drive/boost with pedals. Simple recipe.

Then I confuse things with wacked out fuzz and modulation and pitch shifting and filtering. 

[rzenc]

Amp fine tuned for OD/DIST + the right speakers are true mean machines...

I believe a 'clean amp' +pedals are cool too, maybe more versatile for diferents types of music...

Best Regards

R.

[alerich]

I have always been one to put a pedal in front of an overdriven amp to push it. The main reason I like this approach is that you can mix and match as the mood suits. When I gigged with my old 2204 half stack years ago sometimes I would use an overdrive pedal of some sort and other times I would just use an EQ pedal with a nice midrange hump and a bit of level boost. Different pedals would migrate onto and off of my pedal board as my moods changed. Having played a few ultra high gain amps in the past (Boogie and Peavey 5150) I feel more at home with a JCM 800 style amp and a pedal. I ended up modding the 5150 for less gain.

[tubeswell]

Wow! I'm in the majority!

[jeff]

In front of the amp.  In an effects loop in the guitar!

Chris

 

???
Your guitar has an effects loop?
I have heard that Gerry had something like this. Basically the PU went to a loop back into the guitar so the volume control on the guitar come after the pedal. the PU is always fully driving the pedal and the volume controls the level to the amp not to the effect.
Is that what you're talking about?

[moonbird]

SG -

FWIW. I have thought the same thing many times!! Wouldn't a controllable OD integrated into the amp be the BEST way to go? Maybe putting the boost in one spot of the circuit and the clipper elsewhere would work wonders.

IMHO one of the stumbling blocks for many tube amp users is the mere thought of "polluting" a tube circuit with SS parts. But aren't you doing that by playing through a SS pedal *before* the tube amp? Kinda like wolfing a Big MAC before starting on the Beef Wellington don't you think?  

IMO if it sounds good, it IS good!! And furthermore if we are EVER to progress beyond rebuilding the same ole designs adnausium -- this will be the path!!

I will now return to my hidee hole!!  

[SILVERGUN]

Thanks again to all who have voted and all who will.....I also appreciate you guys taking the time to explain your answers, and I knew this would be an interesting topic, if nothing else.......I found this to be an interesting quote:

IMHO one of the stumbling blocks for many tube amp users is the mere thought of "polluting" a tube circuit with SS parts. But aren't you doing that by playing through a SS pedal *before* the tube amp? 

I guess that is kinda what I was getting at with this question.....
Does it just produce a more pleasing sound when you chop up the wave before it hits the amp input?,,,,or is that just what we have gotten used to settling for?

[Searing]

Jeff,

Yes, I am talking about the same loop that Jerry had.  It is amazing!  I am so surprised that more folk on here do not do this with their guitars.  Not to mention all of the mods to his twin amp.  That guy, and his techs were on the cutting edge.  Way ahead of their time!

Chris

[jeff]

How'd you do that?
3 jacks on the guitar?

[SILVERGUN]

How'd you do that?

Yes,,,,how do you do that?...

AND, how do I get 156 views and only 15 votes?               

[Bluemeany]

Pedals give you more room for manoeuvre. Since the dawns of amp distortion people have found ways to augment it with pedals - look at the first fuzz pedals...

[Ed_Chambley]

If you are going for a certain sound, put it in the amp.  Bogner built an amp with a ts9 circuit in it that was footswitchable.  A cool feature I guess.  There are a lot of nice Overdrive/Distortion pedals with their own characteristics.  For instance, on my board I have a Pasley Drive, A BB Plus, A catlinbread No5, a RC booster, sparkle drive keeley fuzz and a few more.  It is a lot easier to change the type of overdrive because all I have to do is step on a button.  On the other hand I have a build with overdrive hotswitch.  One sound, but it is cool and sounds great.  To change it is just a little more difficult.  In reality tho, the people I am playing for do not know the difference and I have to be able to change styles if playing cover music.  The normal audience doesn't know, which is proven by contemporary rock shows.  They still have huge "display" cabinets and amps, but they are not using them.  It is just part of the show.  Stage volume today is much more quiet than having Pete Townsend's late 60's rig.

[Willabe]

That guy, and his techs were on the cutting edge.  Way ahead of their time!

It was all Timothy Leary's fault.



                  Brad       

[alerich]

Does it just produce a more pleasing sound when you chop up the wave before it hits the amp input?

If you chop it up with the right knife... yes. Back in the 80s I gigged with a solid state Randall combo. All the overdrive was on board - no pedals. It was good but not great. A little on the harsh side. In the 90s I gigged with a Mesa Boogie Mark II. All the overdrive was on board - no pedals. Again, good but not great. A little on the mushy side. Over the years I have found that a mix of the two - a Marshall JCM 800 style tube circuit and a solid state overdrive pedal - works best for me. They complement each other well. The tube amp tames the harshness of the solid state and the solid state lends a little edge to the mushy (if over done) tube overdrive. There are certain tone standards that I always come back to. A Les Paul into a JCM 800 pushed with an overdrive pedal. My favorite recipe.

[SILVERGUN]

There are certain tone standards that I always come back to. A Les Paul into a JCM 800 pushed with an overdrive pedal. My favorite recipe.

I have heard this recipe repeated a few times by guys that I respect.....
The first amp I built was an 800, single channel, and I never put an OD pedal in front of it  ,,,,so I missed out on having that experience for myself...
My friend has a 2205, and I'm not a big fan of the built in diode-distortion.....

I used a Mesa Triaxis for my entire career (had an early serial #) and missed out on a lot of the experimentation that you guys have done

So,,,,,now,, I'm trying to build 4 gain stages into my recent amp (and it does sound cool), but I'm just looking for others opinions on their own sucess in achieving sonic OD nirvana
In the future I wouldn't be against putting a little SS into the preamp, to get closer to the infinitely "singing" tone I hear in my head,,,and I also wonder if there is a "better" spot than in the first stage?
I also haven't tried anything into the front end of this 50 watt distortion box I call an amp

[Searing]

Just two jacks. Check out www.Waldelectronics.com.  He has the diagrams on there. Look at his Tiger guitar wiring diagram.  It's great stuff!

Chris

[Ed_Chambley]

There are certain tone standards that I always come back to. A Les Paul into a JCM 800 pushed with an overdrive pedal. My favorite recipe.

I have heard this recipe repeated a few times by guys that I respect.....
The first amp I built was an 800, single channel, and I never put an OD pedal in front of it  ,,,,so I missed out on having that experience for myself...
My friend has a 2205, and I'm not a big fan of the built in diode-distortion.....

I used a Mesa Triaxis for my entire career (had an early serial #) and missed out on a lot of the experimentation that you guys have done

So,,,,,now,, I'm trying to build 4 gain stages into my recent amp (and it does sound cool), but I'm just looking for others opinions on their own sucess in achieving sonic OD nirvana
In the future I wouldn't be against putting a little SS into the preamp, to get closer to the infinitely "singing" tone I hear in my head,,,and I also wonder if there is a "better" spot than in the first stage?
I also haven't tried anything into the front end of this 50 watt distortion box I call an amp

Well, it is all according to what type of distortion you want.  Preamp or power tube.  Problem with power tube is most people use a 12Ax7 in the PI and limit the current whereas using a 12at7 will increase current to the power tubes and push the distortion past the PI.   Nothing wrong with preamp distortion, but the liquid sustain I use a smaller watt amp with a 5751 going to a 12ax7 and then to a 12At7.  I have a 18 watt tmb feeding the power section of a Matchless Chiefton with EL34's running plate voltage at 420.  It truly is a gain monster.  It has no master volume or loop.  The amp simply refuses to play nice.  Brown sound for days.  BTW, I am using an OT designed for 50 watts with 3.4k.  It is fun to play old Van Halen type stuff.  Put a Boss DS1 with a seeing eye mod and you do not have to even use your left hand.  Just fretting the strings will cause it to sing for days.  Has a satraini (sp?) tone.  I wish I had the opportunity to use it on a gig.  It is not loud, but I have to have an amp that will cleanup.  I have 3 builds to complete and them I am going to split it into a power amp and make a preamp box with a few different circuits.  Probably a 1987 and an Ab763 lite with an additional EF86 cascaded on one input and another input which will bypass the EF86 and go to a 12Ay7 for my clean.

[SILVERGUN]

Thanks for ALL of that Ed...
The first thing I'm gonna do when I get back to tweaking is try a 12AT7 in the P.I.......haven't tried that yet
Plus, I'll play around with the values there,,,which I had done a while back,,,,but I've been preoccupied with getting the preamp voicing and tone stack in order......thinking recently about incorporating a "sweep" control by using a pot in place of the slope resistor

I have 3 builds to complete and them I am going to split it into a power amp and make a preamp box with a few different circuits.  Probably a 1987 and an Ab763 lite with an additional EF86 cascaded on one input and another input which will bypass the EF86 and go to a 12Ay7 for my clean.

Well, I like the sound of that....I'll stay tuned

Do you have a schematic for the TMB/Chieftan?.......very interesting

[Ed_Chambley]

Well I did not go through doing that.  I simply used a proven 18 watt layout and the power section from the chiefton.  Cant find the schematic for the 18 watt, but Doug has it in the library.  When you look at it, I don't think you will have any problems.  BTW, the large watt resistors in the power section are not necessary.  The chiefton schematics are detailed.  I used a Hammond PT (cant remember which one but 252 comes to mind) and Heybour OT.  Heybour has made a replica of the Drake Plexi OT in 50 watts.  I used that one.

I did not use the normal input on the 18 watt so I could add the cut control and reverb.  I don't really use the reverb much so if I did it again I would use that tube for something else.  It is really simple to do, but you will want to use separate cathode resistors on the EL34's, if you use El34's.

I used the chiefton because it is one of few amps with cathode bias EL34's.  I tried it with 6l6 and a OT from a Supro and while it sounded good, it was difficult to keep it from rounding out.  Oh yea, no tube rectifier.  Did not sound tight and powerful.  I was looking for that power chord sound in Starship's Jane.  It took some tweaking, but it is very close.  It is a 1 trick pony, but that is cool with me.  Just gives me an excuse to build another amp

Take a look.  It is interesting.  Use a BIG chassis.  I had to rebuild it in a larger one as I could not get rid of as much floor noise as I like until I did.  The Chiefton's power section is way cool and that is why I am rethinking the build.  I have an AA165 preamp I hooked up to it and it played nice and clean.  That is why I am thinking about doing something with it like Voodoo Amps do and have 2 preamps inside.

[SILVERGUN]

Thanks AGAIN Ed,
Every time you type I learn something new...
I love the Starship- Jane reference, and had forgotten how cool the guitar sound was on that.....that took me back
I'm starting to remember why I started playing guitar in the first place, and what I love about a huge powerful distorted amp 

Is there anything that stands out to you as making a big difference with cathode biased EL34s?,,,that you can put into words....that makes it worth trying

Also, is there one thing that stands out as your best experience with setting up the phase inverter values? (using a 12AT7 or not)

[Ed_Chambley]

Thanks AGAIN Ed,
Every time you type I learn something new...
I love the Starship- Jane reference, and had forgotten how cool the guitar sound was on that.....that took me back
I'm starting to remember why I started playing guitar in the first place, and what I love about a huge powerful distorted amp 

Is there anything that stands out to you as making a big difference with cathode biased EL34s?,,,that you can put into words....that makes it worth trying

Also, is there one thing that stands out as your best experience with setting up the phase inverter values? (using a 12AT7 or not)

The separate cathode bias I chose because I was putting well under 500v on the plates.  I had no idea what it was going to do but if Matchless had done it I thought it would be worth a try.  The difference is simply that the tubes saturate easier.  At least if you fool around with the resistor values some.  It seems as if I provide more current to them what I get is not really "breakup".  If you have ever played a real tweed bassman you know there is a place on the volume where the amp starts playing the guitar, but this place is loud.  It seems as if you can get the same thing at a much lower volume.  The only drawback is it will not clean up much with the guitar knob.  If I were to use fixed bias, I would have to increase the voltage (or would want to) and the I would just have a Marshall.  I love Marshall's, but I began building Marshall's and have way too many.  I can actually run the tubes hotter with a lower plate voltage or it seems so.  The 18 watt layout I posted seems to have quite a bit of preamp distortion and in the beginning I was overloading the PI and I was getting blocking distortion.  So instead of reducing gain, I changed the cap values tweaking the amp to focus on upper mids and put in the 12At7 which will provide more current and GM.  Not as much gain, but I already had plenty of gain.  I just wanted to get it to the power tubes.

26 watt EL34 cathode biased part 2
This will give you some idea if the sound, but not near as much gain if you put a little more voltage on the EL34's.  That is why I converted to ss rectification.  I did not want any sag, or as little as possible.  I wanted it to go BAM, BAM BAM, BAM.  You know when you are playing with a band and you want those heavy hits followed by silence.

The more I learn and read, the more I realize I think in volts, not current.  IMO this is not the best way of thinking if you are designing. It is fine if you are cloning.  I took some time off building and have been just doing repairs and really studying Phase Inverters and even changing PT's to hear what different ma will do to amps tone.  A stiff amp does not have to be lifeless.  By now you know I am a Chicken Picker and my heros are Jerry Reed, Brent Mason, Chet Atkins, Merle Travis and one and on.  But I am a Child of the 60's so occasionally it is necessary to do a little finger tapping and dive bombs even though I have to blow the dust off my Gambale Ibanez with the wizard 2 neck.

[jim]

I love the sound of real 12AX7 overdrive. And I agree that you need different sounding overdrives for interest. But too much of it is fizzy. When you want to step out with a lead and boost your signal you are simply going to get more distortion and fizz--not any more bite.  Oh yeah--using the guitar volume and tone control helps if you are willing to hold some out for the lead but is is still not enough.  Thats why for "playin' out" purposes a pedal into a real mildly overdriven or clean amp is useful.  I like Durham's Sexdrive boost right before the amp but after my overdrive pedal--it adds a little extra dynamics and pick
sensitivity without more volume or fizz.  So the lead sounds different to the listener from the rythym  line without being assultive.  Thats my take.  Jim

[SILVERGUN]

Thanks Ed and jim,
I love the demo Ed, and really appreciate you taking the time to post that...

Seems like the more I read and think about this topic,,,the more I am convinced to "stay the course" and try to build in thew sound I want for this specific application....I too prefer the sound of 12AX7 OD,,,,and I gues I just must fulfill my tube destiny and press this design as far as I can.....
Who else really knows what I want to sound like?......right?

Ed, I did try the 12AT7 in the PI, and messed around with the tail resistor value,,,,,and actually wound up going back to the AX7, but decreased the tail value to 235ohm by strapping a 470 across the existing 470, which obviously increased gain,,,and wham,,,really pushed things along
Any problem with that approach?? 

[Ed_Chambley]

Thanks Ed and jim,
I love the demo Ed, and really appreciate you taking the time to post that...

Seems like the more I read and think about this topic,,,the more I am convinced to "stay the course" and try to build in thew sound I want for this specific application....I too prefer the sound of 12AX7 OD,,,,and I gues I just must fulfill my tube destiny and press this design as far as I can.....
Who else really knows what I want to sound like?......right?

Ed, I did try the 12AT7 in the PI, and messed around with the tail resistor value,,,,,and actually wound up going back to the AX7, but decreased the tail value to 235ohm by strapping a 470 across the existing 470, which obviously increased gain,,,and wham,,,really pushed things along
Any problem with that approach?? 

If you like the tone and your transformers are cool, there is never nothing wrong.  To tell you the truth, sometimes I like an amps tone too long.  Kind of like getting a favorite song, and then getting another.  Doesn't mean you did not like the first song, just maybe a little tired of it.  I used to love high gain and 30 years ago I was playing it most of the time.  Today I am trying to get the cleanest, complex, shimmering almost chorus like from an amp.  Every since I played a few Two Rock amps and they had that swirly chordal chime I have been ruined.  I have never really dissected overdrive as I do have quite a few marshall type amps (even some real marshalls).  IMO, this is the best setup when wanting overdrive and using a Les Paul, but I am old and think Neal Scheon had the best overdrive tone ever.

[G._Hoffman]

All of the above, at some time, depending on the situation.

Shouldn't that be everyone's answer?


Gabriel

[jeff]

You've inspired me. I have a PT out of an Epi VJ that has 12-0-12 taps, so I'm basically gonna use em to build a distortion pedal into a tube amp. I got the "pedal" built and it sounds cool. Real heavy distortion, now I need to build the amp it goes in.

 But on the other hand building a pedal into an amp is cool ...but... you can only use that pedal with that amp. So in a way you're limited. If you build a stand alone pedal you can use it with any amp.

 I dunno, I got the 12V taps so I figure what the heck.
    Jeff

[SILVERGUN]

You've inspired me. I have a PT out of an Epi VJ that has 12-0-12 taps, so I'm basically gonna use em to build a distortion pedal into a tube amp. I got the "pedal" built and it sounds cool. Real heavy distortion, now I need to build the amp it goes in.

 But on the other hand building a pedal into an amp is cool ...but... you can only use that pedal with that amp. So in a way you're limited. If you build a stand alone pedal you can use it with any amp.

That IS pretty cool...thanks for letting me know that this isn't writing on a wall no-one sees......

I am pushing my design even further now by trying to squeeze a built in compressor/boost in front of my built in OD,,,,the goal being an extremely liquid lead sound that I can make relay foot-switchable........fun.....next,,,a built in D'lator loop with built in delay and EQ  
The goal is a single channel high gain rhythm sound and then BAM, footswitch in compressor, delay, EQ at fixed values,,,,and proceed to melt faces

Think I'm gonna need a bigger chassis

Good thing I started with a huge PT  .....good thing jojokeo and tubenit like me (couldn't do it without 'em)

Talk about inspired

[sluckey]

I have a PT out of an Epi VJ that has 12-0-12 taps

Are you sure? The early stock schematic I have shows a 6.3 with no CT.

[jeff]

 I know the VJ went through a couple of versions. The one I have has 6.3V no CT, 260V no CT, and a 12-0-12V. Says it right on the PT so no need to test. I think I've heard rumors of Epiphone using the same transformer in their bigger amps(valve senior???). You know, buy in bulk and even though the PT is more that enough for the VJ , end up saving $$$ by only ordering one PT. Don't know is that's true but seems way bigger than it needs to be for a lil' SE EL84.

But I'm getting off topic here.   

"Think I'm gonna need a bigger chassis"
 
 Yeah, good thinking. Roomy chassis = fun build. Trust me I've shoe-horned too much amp into too small a chassis many times and it isn't fun. I've just now gotten out of the "Build the biggest possible amp in the smallest possible chassis" phase.
(Let's see if I can build a 100W amp into a Champ-sized chassis)

[sluckey]

Makes sense to me.

[SILVERGUN]

OH yeah,,,,
And I'm lucky sluckey's around to keep us all honest  ( and PRR, HBP, etc., etc.)........and thinking clearly 
I seriously wouldn't even be thinking these thoughts if I weren't surrounded by you guys,,with tons of experience and know how
Thanks for always being behind the curtain sluckey,,,,whether you are questioning something or correcting me your input is always greatly appreciated....
I'm learning to give you guys less stuff to clean up after 

But on the other hand building a pedal into an amp is cool ...but... you can only use that pedal with that amp. So in a way you're limited. If you build a stand alone pedal you can use it with any amp.

Just for the record Jeff,,,I wasn't necessarily talking about building an OD/dist pedal circuit into an amp,,,as much as I was suggesting just putting the OD  in as 4 gain stages of 12AX7 to keep it tube......Looking back now, I probably should've worded my original question a little differently
I was trying to say " Does it make more sense (or sound better) to build the OD into the tube amp circuit, OR, put a SS pedal in front of your amp,,,and what would you describe as the sonic differences?"
Maybe to some ears it does sound better to have a big clean amp sound and then just distort the front end?

[SILVERGUN]

469 views

31 votes

 

Could there really be 438 people who have read this thread and dont play guitar?

[sluckey]

Could there really be 438 people who have read this thread and dont play guitar?

Maybe, but I doubt it. I also doubt 438 people have read this thread. A lot of people have visited this thread multiple times, including you and me. Each visit counts as a view if you have closed your browser since your last visit. So, you've visited maybe a dozen times and voted once. I've visited several times and have not voted. See how the numbers can get skewed?

[SILVERGUN]

I've visited several times and have not voted.

   I'm very disappointed....
I can only imagine that I left out an option that covers your preference.....

Are you sure there isn't a Boss Turbo OD pedal hidden behind that strat?   

[sluckey]

Are you sure there isn't a Boss Turbo OD pedal hidden behind that strat?

Positive.

There are 8 Boss pedals on that pedal board, plus a real Thomas Organ Crybaby and a volume pedal. And I have 4 more that have been on the board. The only OD pedal is that Blues Driver whatchamacallit. The pedal board was a project just like all the amps I've built when my electric interests were revived in the early 2000s. And I cycled thru several other pedals during that time. But, that pedal board is the most dusty piece of gear I own today. Been years since it was plugged in.

Oops! There go your numbers again.  

Don't be too disappointed. I just hate don't like participating in surveys. But I do read every message posted on the board. And I'm a fixer. I'm into this stuff more from an electronic view than from a git picker view. My pickin' days are way behind me. Nice to combine the two views though.

EDIT... The word 'hate' may have been a little too strong.

[jeff]

put a SS pedal in front of your amp,,,and what would you describe as the sonic differences?"
Maybe to some ears it does sound better to have a big clean amp sound and then just distort the front end?

 I got to admit, I was one of those guys that was under the impression that tubes have to sound better than SS...because they're tubes, right? Well I found out that's not really true.

 I've found, for me, if I want light to medium distortion then tubes sound better to me. But if I want to crank the distortion to 11 and beyond, and play some super heavy metal then SS, to me, is better for the job. I've never built anything tube that sounds as good when it's super distorted as SS. But I found if I dial it back a little then it doesn't sound as good as tubes.
 It's hard to describe but if I'm playing near the edge, where the strength of the attack distorts the note more and more, tubes sound better to me. Better transition between delicate/aggressive. Where as when I roll back on SS It doesn't sound as sweet. SS sounds better to me when I'm using so much distortion that when picking delicate, it's still pretty distorted. I think tubes have more touch/more expressive.

So just speaking from what I've built so far:
Tubes are good from clean up to a certian point and SS are good for past that point.

 Jeff

[SILVERGUN]

And I'm a fixer. I'm into this stuff more from an electronic view than from a git picker view. My pickin' days are way behind me. Nice to combine the two views though.

You'd have much less credibility if you had never strummed an open G......
Even if you did help guide aircraft your whole life,,,your amps couldn't possibly sound good without the appreciation that can only come from feeling the strings vibrate under your fingers 

By the way, what kind of camera do you use?,,,,
It seems to always take much more beautiful pictures than mine 

Thanks for leaving your site up.....it's a great place to take people who want to see what I'm "wasting" all of my time on,,,,,and show them what a great man can accomplish in his lifetime 

[SILVERGUN]

I've found, for me, if I want light to medium distortion then tubes sound better to me. But if I want to crank the distortion to 11 and beyond, and play some super heavy metal then SS, to me, is better for the job. I've never build anything tube that sounds as good when it's super distorted as SS. But I found if I dial it back a little then it doesn't sound as good as tubes.
 It's hard to describe but if I'm playing near the edge, where the strength of the attack distorts the note more and more, tubes sound better to me. Better transition between delicate/aggressive. Where as when I roll back on SS It doesn't sound as sweet. SS sounds better to me when I'm using so much distortion that when picking delicate, it's still pretty distorted. I think tubes have more touch/more expressive.
So just speaking from what I've built so far:
Tubes are good from clean up to a certian point and SS are good for past that point.

That's exactly what I was fishing for,,,just a couple good old fashioned opinions from guys I respect
It really is an interesting topic to me,,,,and I guess I would really have to take a closer look at some waveforms at different points in the path to truly try to understand what is happening there...

My ears kinda confirm what you're saying, because recently I thought I had all of the gain I needed built in,,,,but when I turned the gain down a little and added a Tech 21 Comptortion up front , it brought in some very cool harmonics, sustain, and boost that I'm sure I would'nt have been able to squeeze out of just the tubes

And I'm not talking about super heavy metal,,,just a seriously singing hard rock lead tone (Schon+Gilmour+Page+Blackmore)

[sluckey]

My earlier pics were taken with a Canon Powershot G2, a nice 4 megapixel camera. The pics for the last couple years were taken with a Canon Powershot SD1400, a 14 megapixel 'pocket' camera. It's more of a point 'n shoot camera. Not nearly as nice as the old Powershot.

I'm "wasting" all of my time on

It's only a waste of time to people that are not passionate about this stuff. Your passion is clearly visible, and refreshing. Keep on truckin'.

[zendragon63]

Like sluckey, I don't usually participate in polls. However, from a bigger picture view silvergun raises a really good introspection. I personally am not a big pedal fan; instead I decided to get next to the science and art of building an amp that sound great on it's own--or at least sounds satisfying for me. No offense meant--I know so many guitarists that insist on a name brand or a popular circuit and then medicate the bejeebers out of the signal in to reach their sound. I have been in that crowd. Hey its ok--tone and response is pretty subjective and the ends justify the means for them i.e. to cover popular songs in a bar, it makes sense.  

And I know, I know, lots of big pros use pedals.... Everything in it's place though. I have a couple but they hardly ever get used.

Since this is an amp building forum, I predict that once you find or build the right amp for your 'voice', you will probably want to throw away your pedals. Just an respectful opinion. Regards

dennis

[phsyconoodler]

I like pedals but when you get an amp to overdrive the right way,they sound much more organic than any pedal.
  I just finished tweaking my little Devil 5 watt amp and with 4 gain stages it sure doesn't need a pedal!It's got sustain and more gain than anyone could ever need,plus no squealing unless you want it to.I have yet to get a pedal to sound like this amp does!
  But...a nice rangemaster in front of an 18 watt or 50 watt Marshall is a thing of beauty too.The thing about the rangemaster is that it's just pushing the amp to give up the goods and it's not a huge coloration which is nice.
  I have worked with a few pro players who totally rely on pedals and have for years.They seek me out because they hear my amps with no pedals or one pedal kill their tone dead with one note.They walk around with blinders on cause they don't want to 'disturb their tone'.
  I really like following Silvergun's threads,cause he doesn't give a rats ass about what other people think about tone.He finds it on his own,which is exciting when you find it. He has no fear of experimenting and neither do I.

[SILVERGUN]

Since this is an amp building forum, I predict that once you find or build the right amp for your 'voice', you will probably want to throw away your pedals. Just an respectful opinion. Regards

Good stuff...I actually dont own more than 2 pedals and wanted to work this out before I go getting caught up in that game too..

  But...a nice rangemaster in front of an 18 watt or 50 watt Marshall is a thing of beauty too.The thing about the rangemaster is that it's just pushing the amp to give up the goods and it's not a huge coloration which is nice.
   I really like following Silvergun's threads,cause he doesn't give a rats ass about what other people think about tone.He finds it on his own,which is exciting when you find it. He has no fear of experimenting and neither do I.

Funny that you say that,,,cause I was just considering building a rangemaster circuit onto the front end as a switchable boost (will be ordering the transistors this week)
I actually imagine that if I steal 1 cool thing from each guy and put it into 1 amp,,,i'll have a masterpiece 
Getting to this point has been very exciting and fun for me,,,,and I really appreciate everyone's help, support and kind words