Man cave...spray foaming the ceiling...

[TubeGeek]

Hello guys,

I haven't had much time to spend on the forum lately.  I miss it.

I am trying to decided whether I should spray foam my basement ceiling with 8" or 12" deep of polyurethane insulation.  If I can get away with 8" it will save me some dollars but if there is added benefits with 12", I may do it. 

I purchased my first home recently and am now in the beginning stages of planning what to do with my basement.  It is unfinished and basically an open slate for my ultimate man cave.  I have around 700 sqft to work with.  I have only painted the floor thus far only to cut down on dust.  I figure I'll do this in stages and that way I can put dollars into it along the way instead of doing this in one shot.  Oh I am also going to DIY as much as possible.  The more planning I do the more I start to think...sheesh this is gonna take me lots of time to do, maybe it's best to hire someone to do it quicker instead!

Currently I have half the room setup as a music room with my guitars, amps, drumset, microphones, pa speakers, couch, etc and the other half has the amp building bench, couple racks I use for electric equipment and recording equipment, some parts bins for amp work and computer desk with recording monitors.  I will use this room to record music and host jam/parties/get-togethers at my place.  I don't do a heck of a lot of recording these days, maybe 2 or 3 outside projects per year and those are typically only bed track sessions.  That's kinda my thing, I like recording bed tracks and then the artists take what I do and overdub elsewhere or at their home studios etc.  I do set things up mainly for myself to record ideas and have fun.  I work for new gear!  I usually get a preamp kit or microphone out of it when I record a band.

First step is soundproofing.  I want to focus on my ceiling and stairwell first.  

I have been thinking of what to do here and what I have come up with is to hire a contractor to spray my ceiling with an open-cell BASF polyurethane foam in every nook and cranny possible.  This is a little bit pricey but I think will be the best option long-term and for functionality.  The open cell foam is better at sound reduction than closed cell.  I want to go with 12" deep in between my ceiling joists and cover all ducting where possible too.  

One question I have is:  Will their be any significant improvement in sound reduction if I go with 8" vs. 12" deep insulation on the ceiling?  

I know more is better but I'm wondering if the extra 4" to make 12" is going to benefit me enough to spend the extra dollars on it.

The open cell foam has an r4 value per inch.  That'll give me r32 or r48 depending on what I go with.  I'm sure that'll help keep my above floor warmer and also make my utility bills more affordable too.  The closed cell purple foam has an r7 value per inch.  I plan to spray my walls with 2" of this after the framing is done.

If I go with 8" the cost will be $2000.  12" will be $2800.

If I purchase DIY spray foam kits, the cost is higher than hiring a contractor. I already looked into that option.

After foam I plan to install resilient channel with isolation clips on the ceiling joists and then either two sheets of drywall glued together with "green glue" or buy a pre-made type soundboard that is the same thing as DIY'ing it. (quietrock)

Basically I want to be able to play my amps and drums and music without completely disturbing the upstairs in my house.  I know nothing is 100% sound proof, especially on a tight budget. I want to do what I can and do it right the first time.

Any input would be great :)

[kagliostro]

12" instead of 8" is 4" more and 4" is 50% of the standard 8" so I think you can have a real benefit

but as to stop sounds the best way are heavy materials (one of the best is lead)

and I think the expense will be very high if you have to use a thin sheet of lead on the whole area

however there is a lot of different product devoted to that specific use, you must look for it in your area

K

[Ritchie200]

Hey TG!  Good to have you back!

My business involves evaluating these kinds of "modifications".  IMHO, spray foam is the worst invention known to man.  Please do not use this.  Always think about the future - such as: How will this affect the value of my home?  What if I need to access some electrical run and lighting/ductwork/plumbing drain or supply/gas supply/or add new runs of any of these.  Most important, if you fill up the area at your sill plate/rim joist you will never know if you have termite or other wood destroying insect activity until it is WAY to late (read EXPENSIVE).  Use a drop ceiling with egg crate above and thick roll out insulation above that.  You can staple the roll out very easily to your engineered floor joists, a simple installation.  Use roll out with a vapor barrier on the walls too.  The foam would also have a mechanical connection and may transfer more sound.  The drop ceiling, egg crate, and roll out will give you several isolated breaks between basement and main floor.

If you spray that crap (sorry, my description..), there is no turning back.  If I have not convinced you, hire it out.  A company I used to work for had a halon system for the IT room.  We had to have guys come in a seal it up with the foam.  You DO NOT want to breath this crap.  The guys were wearing total cover space suits with backpack respirators and we were not allowed near.  They said that if we ever wanted it removed, we should just knock down the walls and throw it all away.  The guys who maintained our roof (metal standing seam flat roof with tar and gravel) told the owner he was a fool.  If there was ever any water intrusion in this area, it would fall in before we knew there was a problem as the foam will capture the water.  That is also the problem with spray foam in residential attic roofs.  Roofers hate it because it rots out the roof sheathing.  Most will not warrantee work when foam is present.  Besides, the insulation should be in the ceiling, NOT the roof.

Good luck!  We've seen the before pics, now you have to post the after pics!
Jim

[Willabe]

Well congratulations on your 1st house!    

I think Jim's right about the foam in the ceiling/floor joist space. Like Jim said your dead in the water if you need to open it up. DON'T DO IT! You have plumbing, electric, duck work, etc in there.

I would however use spray foam in the exterior walls of a building in a heart beat for insulation, but that's a different story.

Buy the book pictured below and anything else by F. Alton Everest on soundproofing. He's 1 of the grand fathers of sound proofing techniques and theory. You can even buy it used in paper back for a couple of bucks.

I've done a few studios using that book that where extremely isolated for the money and work it took to build. Basically resilient channel, RC1, with the old style 1/2"x 4'x 8' celotex wood pulp exterior sheathing sandwiched in between the RC1 and 5/8" fire code drywall. Wall and joist cavities stuffed with regular fiber glass insulation. Works great! Stagger the seams of the 2 sheet goods. Use resilient caulk to fill cracks/spaces in drywall then tape seams/corners as normal. In fact they tell you to leave an 1/8" space between any sheet good where they meet at a corner and use resilient caulk to fully fill in that gap. That way all walls/ceilings float independent of each other or are decoupled from each other, very important. It can be a real pain to do this, but it works. I used wood shims as temporary spacers.

Fire code drywall is denser than regular drywall. It's made from a finer grind so 5/8" fire code is really 3/4" of regular drywall. More "mass", "mass" is good for sound deadening, especially for bass. But you also need decoupling to go with it.

I've seen quite rock on line before and it seems to be very good at sound deadening but it costs more and I'm not sure you need it. The question would be seeing that going with RC1 and celotex/drywall combo you have an extra step in hanging/spacing/caluking in the celotex which is both time and money. So would using only RC1 and quite rock give the same STC rating for less money?

Any time you screw/nail down a sheet good to studs/joists it will act as a drum skin when exposed to sound waves. If you put the celotex in between the drywall and studs/joists it acts as a damper and stops the drywall from resonating. Just like a felt damper on a floor tom drum skin. But your damping 100% of the "skin". It kinda fools the sound waves into thinking the drywalls denser/thicker.

Then when you add the RC1 it decouples the 2 sheet goods from the studs/joist and you really knock down the sound transmission through the wall/ceiling. RC1 also acts as a type of shock absorber. It lets the sheet goods float so when sound waves hit them they kill their own energy by trying to make the sheet goods vibrate. As long as their decoupled from the framing with RC1 it's fine. When you do your room corners stair step in the celotex and drywall so you have mass and 90 degree turns for the sound waves to try and get through. Sound waves do not like to make 90 degree turns, kills their energy/strength. Do not just put your ceiling in and then butt the walls sheet goods to it. Stuffing the cavity with fiber glass insulation helps to deaden any sound that did make it through.

Even doing this on only 1 side of the wall has a very good result as far as sound transmission. The rating system and term they use is STC for sound transmission class.

Years ago I called Owens Corning and told them I was interested in there sound proofing materials and they sent me a large box full of information and several dozen wall/ceiling/floor construction methods including side view cut away drawings with each ones STC rating. They sent it 2 day UPS for free. I still have all of it.

As far as the resilient clips I'd like to see a picture of them and see the numbers for using them between the RC1 and framing. Seems redundant because RC1 is a resilient clip, but if there inexpensive and easy to install it could very well be worth it to use them.

The 1 thing I had the most problem with understanding and getting right was the HAVC. I bet I could better understand it now with good reading material.


                      
                   Brad          

[Willabe]

After foam I plan to install resilient channel with isolation clips on the ceiling joists and then either two sheets of drywall glued together with "green glue" or buy a pre-made type soundboard that is the same thing as DYing it. (quietrock)

Basically I want to be able to play my amps and drums and music without completely disturbing the upstairs in my house.  I know nothing is 100% sound proof, especially on a tight budget. I want to do what I can and do it right the first time.

You can only hang so much weight on RC1. If you go past the recommended weight you have to add more runs of RC1 by shortening the space between strips/runs. (4 runs per 8' is all that's needed)  But that defeats the decoupling because your adding more places where the RC1 is attached to the framing. It also lessons the sheet goods ability to float because their now attached to more RC1 strips/runs and are now a little more ridged.

Oh and you have to run the RC1 all the same way so they don't fight each other. On walls open end up. Very important.

So there's a balance and trade off with it. Somebody's done the testing for this and has the numbers on it, you'd have to find it to know for sure if it's worth the extra time and money for what if any improvement in sound reduction it would give you. It might only raise the STC number a couple of points.

That's 1 nice thing about the celotex/drywall combo as apposed to 2 layers of drywall. Less weight, less heavy work, and less time/money.

I used that build system in the basement of my parents house years ago and you could not hear my guitar through my BF SR on 6 or 7 while playing to records on the stereo upstairs. Only very, very faintly.  

The dinning room was right above where I was down stairs playing and my parents sat there a lot, it never bothered them in the least.



               Brad    

    

[PRR]

> First step is soundproofing.

You mean so the folks upstairs don't complain?

Fuzz (or foam) *absorbs the sound IN the room*, but does very little to *block* sound going to other rooms.

What it mostly does is: the music room is dead, the musicians WILL turn-up, folks upstairs complain MORE.

Also the thermal insulation is moot if both sides must be heated.

If one side is a slab on grade, and heated only irregularly, bringing that slab UP to a not-frigid temperature is the majority of your heat cost.

Half-inch drywall with 3-6 inches pink fuzz in the cavity. That's all you should do now because:

Your StairWell will leak MUCH more than a floor. Doors must be massive and perfectly weather-stripped. Probably door top and bottom, and double-drywall the well. Put the drummer downstairs, then upstairs, go around with a cardboard tube to your ear and listen where the sound comes through. Seal that. Repeat. Eventually you may hear more sound through the ceiling/floor than leaks in the stairwell, but you may run out of energy first.

Leave the music space hard. There's no good treatment for a 400 sq.ft. music room--- this is much too small (but all we can afford). Line it with fuzz/foam, it's just oppresively dead, too much work to play. Leave it hard, at least you hear well (and without a lot of effort which will carry outside the room). Irregular is good; set your dividing wall on a 10-30 degree angle so you don't have all parallel walls. (However also remember that you will sell your castle some day, and a slanty wall is very strange to buyers. If they recognize it as a recording studio, such property does not sell well-- I know of two home-studios languishing on the market.)

[Willabe]

Your StairWell will leak MUCH more than a floor. Doors must be massive and perfectly weather-stripped. Probably door top and bottom, and double-drywall the well.

You have to wall off the stairwell with a 2"x4" wall, treat the wall side toward the music room with RC1, celotex and 5/8" fire code dry wall. Fill wall cavity with unfaced R13 fiber glass insulation (you lose a couple of STC points if it's faced) close inside stairwell wall with 5/8" fire code.  Also have treat the stairwell ceiling the same as in music room. Hang flat solid core door at top and bottom of stairwell and weather strip them so you have no air leaks.

Don't be tempted to do the ceiling in the music room and then put the top 2"x4" plate to the ceiling dry wall thinking it will be decoupled. If the dry wall runs from 1 room to another with out a break in it, it will telegraph the sound from 1 room to the other. If you can set the bottom door at a right angle to the top stairwell door even better.

I also used a double layer of foam sill seal on the top and bottom 2"x4" plates for a little decoupling. If I ever sound proof a room again I would probably use 1 of the newer deadening materials that they use to cover walls. It's an 1/8" to 1/4" thick and the plates would only need a small square footage amount compared to covering the walls. It might be worth the price.               
I built a soffit against an outside wall/ceiling corner that ran the length of the room. Then I separated the room in to 2 rooms for music and control room. I built 2 separate walls with 2 separate control room windows (1/4" and 3/8" plate glass) and their own separate jams with the glass set in a resilient weather seal on all sides. So they float, decoupled from their jamb and were air tight.    

I built these walls to the soffit. When I finished the walls and finished the control room windows, I fired up the PA with a record turned it up very loud and went into the other room to check how well the sound proofing was working. It wasn't!          

You could stand in that room and point to where the sound was leaking in from the other room. The soffit. I pulled 1 of the plate glass windows and with a sawzall and a long blade I cut the soffit in between the 2 walls. Just the blades thickness, curf. Closed it back up, turned up the PA and it worked!            Just a small amount of bass was leaking through. I should have gone with 3/8" and 1/2" glass. More mass. Did that at a friends house and it nailed it. Safety glass has an even better STC than plate if you can get it and the 2 glass pains that are bonded together have to be different thickness because of sympathetic resonance. 1/2" made from 1/4" and 1/4" won't be as good as 3/8" and 1/8".  The thin film in between the glass deadens the glass.

Irregular is good; set your dividing wall on a 10-30 degree angle so you don't have all parallel walls.

Weakens or kills standing waves.

(However also remember that you will sell your castle some day, and a slanted wall is very strange to buyers. If they recognize it as a recording studio, such property does not sell well-- I know of two home-studios languishing on the market.)

Good point.

Fuzz (or foam) *absorbs the sound IN the room*, but does very little to *block* sound going to other rooms.

No mass and no decoupling. Sound blasts through the foam and telegraphs through the framing.

If you use a system of different materials that include mass, decoupling and dead air and install them correctly you can achieve a better STC rating and more, across the entire frequency spectrum, than a 6" cinder block wall with the block voids filled solid with concrete.

Buy that book it's a great book to start with on sound proofing, can't beat it for it's size and price.


                 Brad              

[Willabe]

Here's the corner like I was talking about.


              Brad    

[TubeGeek]

Wow lot's of great info to process here.  You have all echoed the thoughts I have been pondering about this project.

PRR really nailed it when he said I'd be selling this house someday.  I will and do not want to completely customize the basement so when I go to sell, it's difficult because of what I have done.

Compromise is inevitable here.

I thought about the drawbacks of spray foam in the ceiling because if I ever do have to get in to run wiring etc, I'm not going to be very happy.  Even though I have 18.5" and would fill 12" deep, I would still have space to run new lines but whatever is buried in the foam would be where the problem could lie.  So with this drawback I am re-thinking what I should do.

I did but a hundred bucks worth of roxul safe n sound insulation to start and then realized I bought 16" when I should have bought the 24" because when I went to place it in between the joists, it will not hold up on it's own.  I have a feeling I have a lot to learn and will probably cost me a little extra because of the curve.  That's ok to a point.

I like the insulation board idea, in fact I was watching a tv show tonight that was installing a roxul board insulation on the basement walls and then framing...seems like a good idea too.  Then adding more insulation between the studs after framing, the r value is around 20.  That's going to help because it gets to -40 celsius where I live in the winters. 

What I am realizing now is that I have to decide where I want to best apply the dollars.  I know I'm not going to get a completely soundproof basement with the noise I make.  Especially with my budget. 

I really appreciate these responses as it's going to save me from wasting dollars. 

I'm processing all this info and will begin to draw up a plan soon.  Maybe this weekend I'll go to the hardware store and just wander around looking for products and getting ideas.

I'll post back with progress.

[Willabe]

What I am realizing now is that I have to decide where I want to best apply the dollars.  I know I'm not going to get a completely soundproof basement with the noise I make.  Especially with my budget.  

I really appreciate these responses as it's going to save me from wasting dollars.  

I went on line and found what I think are the resilient clips and channel.

STC numbers look very good but you'd have to add up the numbers for how much it would cost compared to going with RCI resilient channel. There were 2 different clips, 1 with some kind of rubber (?) bumper that goes against the framing which was twice as much as the 1 without it. Then they slide top hat channel into the clip to screw the drywall to. There installation drawing shows clips at 48" on center and spaced 24" apart top to bottom. That's where they get the decoupling from their only attaching to the framing at a few spots. That works. But on their STC numbers for the 2 different clips their 6 or 8 (?) numbers more when using the clip that's twice the price. Plus you still have to buy the top hat.

RC1 was around $4 for a 12' piece last I bought it. Your ceiling trusses are on 24" centers. So you'd hang it 24" x 24" which would be more connections to the truss but the resilient part of RC1 is a Z shaped spring clip that acts as a shock absorber. You'd have to look up the STC numbers for that layout spacing to see if there the same or almost the same with the same sheet goods attached. They might be very close at less money with RC1.

The green glue has good numbers but is pricey compared to using 1/2" celotex as a damper, it's doing the same thing. They do sell 3/4" FC drywall that could be used instead of 2 layers of 1/2" or even 2 layers of 5/8" FC that would probably come close for less money.

Looking at STC partition drawings online today, which I haven't in at least 10 years suggest you're looking for as close to an STC of 50 as you can get for the money. But since bass is the hardest to stop and it's STC rating falls off the lower the frequency is, going up to 60 would be best but in reality might not be necessary. The wall/ceiling construction assemblies I've used where more than acceptable to me. I did my friends whole basement as a studio with separate music and control rooms and was/is extremely pleased with the sound reduction.

Notice the book I posted, it's title is, recording studios on a budget. I haven't had it in my hands in 20 years and don't know if it has any updates on newer materials. Yes the book is old but the physics of sound reduction materials and construction assemblies are still the same.

It has STC numbers for using celotex and I seem to remember Owens Corning having at least 1 wall/ceiling assembly with STC numbers with celotex in the mix. You find those numbers and you can check them against quite rock, green glue and other similar type products.

I did but a hundred bucks worth of roxul safe n sound insulation to start and then realized I bought 16" when I should have bought the 24" because when I went to place it in between the joists, it will not hold up on it's own.  I have a feeling I have a lot to learn and will probably cost me a little extra because of the curve.  That's ok to a point.

I like the insulation board idea, in fact I was watching a tv show tonight that was installing a roxul board insulation on the basement walls and then framing...seems like a good idea too.  Then adding more insulation between the studs after framing, the r value is around 20.  

That might work for the outside walls but not the ceiling. Roxul insulation is very good but again depending on the wall construction it might not be necessary or worth the extra money than plain old fiber glass. It's just a denser product, so there's more of it in the cavity. It's more dead air in the cavity than if you use regular fiber glass, which is good. But if bass end gets through the sheet goods it will shake the framing and telegraph the bass through the rest of the building anyway. Alton talks about this in the book and goes with regular insulation because of price verses performance. I've seen the cable show Holmes on Homes use it with good results but they weren't trying to knock down a bass player and drummer rocking out.    


                         Brad                      

[Willabe]

I called Owens Corning and they emailed me, "Noise Control Wall Assemblies", that's what you want to see the STC numbers for different wall/ceiling/floors assemblies!

Sorry but I can't figure out how to post it here.   


                 Brad     

[Willabe]

From looking at the wall assemblies STC numbers we can get a base line for sound transmission dB loss.

STC = 36, single layer of 1/2" regular, not fire code drywall, both sides, 3 5/8" steel stud, no insulation.

STC = 43, same as above, but with 5/8" FC drywall.

STC = 48, same as above, but add 2 1/2" "sound attenuation blanket" insulation. (It's the same fiber glass, just packed denser, so more dead air, because of more mass. With regular unfaced 3 1/2" fiber glass insulation instead of 2 1/2" just packed denser at more cost, the STC will be within a few points or the same for less money.

They list the STC ratings for insulation density at pounds per cubic foot. Different densities will respond at different STC blocking numbers at different frequencies in different wall assemblies.

Are we having fun yet?    

STC = 58, 2 layers 5/8" FC on RC1 on the "source" side (read loud side), single layer 5/8" FC on stud other side, 3 5/8" steel stud, 2 1/2" unfaced fiber glass insulation.

Notes; 5/8" FC is the same as 3/4" regular drywall, as far as the amount of gypsum in it, so more mass. If you've ever picked up a 4'x8' sheet of 1/2" and a 4'x8' sheet of FC 5/8" you'd believe it. It's only an 1/8" thicker in difference but it weighs more than that, I always wondered about that. Turns out they use a finer grind for the gypsum to get more of it in the same packaged sheet, more mass, less air, to lengthen the fire code burn time. FC = fire code drywall, Owens Corning uses the term "X type", STC numbers with wood studs are very close to steel stud numbers, within a digit or 2. All examples have studs on 16" centers, go to 24" centers add a few more STC points, because of a little more decoupling. Also that in their charts on some they say batt insulation or sound attenuation insulation. Meaning no measurable difference in using either. (Also if you fill the stud cavity with 3 1/2" instead of 2 1/2" it will help slightly.

We know that the 1st 2 examples that I listed are what most of us have in our homes and it does not work very well at deadening sound from room to room. Even adding the insulation only gets a few more STC points.  

So we know we have to do more. But what? And at what cost for materials and labor for what dB loss across the whole frequency spectrum? Really the bottom end.    

For walls we can go to 2"x4" studs on 24" centers, just a little better, because, a little more decoupling, or go to staggered 2"x4" studs on a 2"x6" top/bottom plates, better, more decoupling, but a little more space lost and at a little more cost, but not bad. Next would be separate walls, better yet but more space lost and more in labor/materials costs. All of these can have a double layer of drywall on 1 side or both for more sound attenuation in dB, more mass, so more bass/low frequency dB loss.   

Or for less labor/materials costs and structural weight load (which is important for ceiling/floors) you can go with RC1 or some other type of resilient clip system for the same or better STC sound attenuation.      

They say that 1 STC = 1dB and that every 10 STC points added reduces sound transmission in half. BUT the STC number their using is either an average or at a mid range frequency. STC numbers for 250 hertz and 125 hertz are way less. And we know that when we build an amp for a bass player to keep up with a guitar amp we build it with 3 or 4 times more power? Now that's probably for clean bass and distorted guitar but still we have more sound wave energy from the bass to try and deaden from the next room. That low end bass energy is what shakes the wall sheet goods and framing members. And that's where the problem is and what costs the big money.

I'd like to see the number for the STC = 58 example but using 1/2" celotex instead of a 2nd layer of 5/8" FC. I know it's in that book, I've got to buy a new copy for myself. You could use 2 layers of 5/8" FC sandwiched over 1/2" celotex on RC1, now that should boost the low end STC. I'd also like to see the numbers for using 3/4" FC on RC1, that should raise the bass STC because of the extra mass but cost less in installation labor costs at the same time.  


            
                Brad      

[Heinz]

I have used hemp fiber mats to insulate my roof and I'm really impressed with this stuff. It does not only keep the cold and heat out, it also keeps the noise out. It is very easy to work with, relatively light-weight and does not contain any dangerous/toxic stuff. In my case 25cm/10 inches of hemp provide excellent thermal and acoustic insulation. It may be something to consider for the ceiling and the stairs.

Here's a link to a manufacturer that has more details (there are others, use your favorite search engine):
http://canfiber.com/AboutHemp/Insulation.aspx

[PRR]

> roxul safe n sound insulation

Don't buy any more of that.

It has no magic power over the cheaper rock-wool.... just a fancier sale brochure. And much more profit. Its sound transmission blocking is as poor as any fuzz, only a supplement to 2-layer drywall.

Between rock-wool and fiberglass-- rockwool is utterly non-burning, fiberglass's binder can burn a little, and the tar-paper facing is astonishing easy to char. I may go rock-wool in my garage because I don't HAVE to cover it against small fire. If you are going to cover it, Pink Panther is easier to get, cheaper, and goes on-sale often. (However I did get a roll of Pink that STANK so bad I tore it out and threw it in the woods...)

Both are good for absorbing sound IN the room. Both are noxious fibers and probably should not be exposed, at least in the fluffy form sold for insulation. (There's a denser fiberglass with more binder and cloth surface made for exposed sound absorption, not cheap.)

Acoustic foam is non-fiber and won't perforate your lungs. However it burns good and nasty. At school I had to maintain the Certificate that all my foam was Fire-Rated. You don't need that for a basement, but if the foam ever burns, Get Out!

Couches, winter coats, stuffed toys are also good sound absorbers. The wine-stained couch now has a home. Put up a 8-foot coat-rack and keep all your off-season garments in the studio. Open-weave laundry baskets of the stuffed=toys your kids tire of (you can get more at most yard-sales). Don't over-do it... but you probably can't and still have room to swing a guitar.  

If noise in the house is an issue, build a chicken-shed, 6" Pink Panther in the walls, and a pellet stove. Open air is the cheapest sound absorber. (Unless neighbors are near.)

I've bought and sold a few basements. I seem doomed to buy sad and sell spiffy (you should have seen this place... so full of trash you couldn't see it!). But most buyers are not willing to take a crappy cellar.

> Owens Corning ..., "Noise Control Wall Assemblies", that's what you want

Try - http://www.owenscorning.com/around/sound/commercial_acoustics/

[Willabe]

Thanks PRR but that's not it. That's their products page of sound proofing materials they sell.

I couldn't find it on line so I called them and they e-mailed it to me. It has a couple of pages of cut-a-way side views of many different wall/ceiling/floor assemblies with their STC numbers. All constructed with regular building materials, except for the RC1 which is not expensive and a few have their sound blankets but regular pink can be substituted and get close or the same numbers.

> roxul safe n sound insulation

Don't buy any more of that.

It has no magic power over the cheaper rock-wool.... just a fancier sale brochure. And much more profit. Its sound transmission blocking is as poor as any fuzz, only a supplement to 2-layer drywall. Both are good for absorbing sound IN the room. (There's a denser fiberglass with more binder and cloth surface made for exposed sound absorption, not cheap.)

That's the key, sound in the room as opposed to sound getting out of the room. 2 different things even though the same materials are used with good to great results for both purposes.  

The sound proofing I have done from information I've read boiled down to building a room inside of a room. Which is decoupling. It doesn't have to be 2 separate walls as long as you use something to decouple the drywall from the framing. Even better if you decouple the wall top/bottom plates from what they attach to also. But you need 3 things working together to keep the price down and the size/thickness/weight of the wall/ceiling/floor assembly down as well.

1> Decoupling 2> Mass 3> dead air.  

So....

1> You build your decoupled room to the amount of sound transfer control you need and your budget.

2> Then you deal with the sound in that room with absorbers and or diffusers, if you have any standing waves or unbalanced sound.

If you put thick heavy carpet/padding on the floor it will absorb starting at the highest frequencies at 100% and falling off as the frequency goes down to no absorption. So now the rooms sound is unbalanced with dead top end and booming bass end. Not good for playing nor recording. Carpeted floor is parallel to ceiling so you put bass absorbers on the ceiling, if you have the ceiling height. Can't or don't want to build a parallel wall on 10+ degrees from the other? Use a light weight, fairly easy to build diffuser, that doesn't cost much to build and hang. It's just some 2"x framing built on arch with a 1/4" plywood skin filled with regular insulation.  They will kill any standing wave problems. My church has diffusers going the length of the side walls in between every window in the main sanctuary.

Both can be taken down if you sell the house. Just patch the mounting holes in the drywall and paint.

I've built full band and bass absorbers with both Owens Corning 700 series semi-rigid sheets and rockwool. Also goo-boo/flats. The 700 series is the same fiber glass but they pack it some how into a sheet at different densities. So just more of it and that costs more.

Space is at a premium in any studio and you can build absorbers with the regular stuff but it takes 12" plus of it instead of 2" to 4" to get the same amount of absorption.
 

Between rock-wool and fiberglass-- rockwool is utterly non-burning, fiberglass's binder can burn a little, and the tar-paper facing is astonishing easy to char. I may go rock-wool in my garage because I don't HAVE to cover it against small fire. If you are going to cover it, Pink Panther is easier to get, cheaper, and goes on-sale often.

The last time I bought rockwool it was half the price for the same density, pounds per square foot, and sheet size. It is a little messy as it's made from a rougher grind of glass. It had sand like particles that fell out as you lifted it and put it in the frames, but not really air born as far as I could tell. It just fell to the ground.

The rock wool specs I've seen have a higher melting point of several hundred degrees than fiber glass and because of that and a lower price it's used in commercial/industrial buildings for noise and fire control.

Open air is the cheapest sound absorber. (Unless neighbors are near.)

IIRC, the term used for rating sound absorption is Sabin. 1 Sabin = 100% absorption, so no sound that hits it is reflected. With that they define the perfect sound absorber as a 1'x1' open window facing an open field.  


            Brad        

[Willabe]

Found it.

Cut-a-way drawings on pages 24-35.  

http://www.owenscorning.com/quietzonepro/pdfs/NoiseControlDesignGuide.pdf

Do a search for "flanking paths" which is what I was calling telegraphing (because of no decoupling) through thru the framing members. This would be any sheet goods fastened directly to framing and include any flooring materials. Plus electric boxes and duct work.
 
This is leakage and undermines the STC of any wall/ceiling/floor assembly constructed. It's easy to see in the drawings they show and they list STC numbers of losses from those paths.


            
                   Brad    

[PRR]

> bought rockwool it was half the price for the same density, pounds per square foot, and sheet size. It is a little messy as it's made from a rougher grind of glass.

That's not the prices I've been getting. May depend a LOT how close to the factory and how much your town buys. (Out here in the woods a lot of stuff is special-order list-price plus truck; but we do buy enough Panther to keep the price reasonable.)

RockWool is literally ROCK, not glass. Cheap raw material, amaZing energy input to soften and spin it to fibers. You can heat it about 3 times hotter than glass before it melts. This is of course quite irrelevant (everything else in the house will burn/melt before fiberglass softens, we don't need rock). 

Between the two, use what's cheapest. As has been said, thin stuff just soaks-up highs, you want considerable depth for a balanced all-sounds absorption, so cost matters.

But IMHO the Roxul Safe N Sound is just over-priced compared to their plain-jane fluff.

[Willabe]

That's not the prices I've been getting. May depend a LOT how close to the factory and how much your town buys. (Out here in the woods a lot of stuff is special-order list-price plus truck; but we do buy enough Panther to keep the price reasonable.)

That was 10 years ago or so, but I was very close to Chicago which should be a hub of sorts for major companies as far as stocking and shipping. I new the overall cost for both would have gone up but I thought the price ratio between the 2 would have stayed about the same.

RockWool is literally ROCK, not glass. Cheap raw material, amaZing energy input to soften and spin it to fibers. You can heat it about 3 times hotter than glass before it melts. This is of course quite irrelevant (everything else in the house will burn/melt before fiberglass softens, we don't need rock).

Ok, interesting.

Between the two, use what's cheapest. As has been said, thin stuff just soaks-up highs, you want considerable depth for a balanced all-sounds absorption, so cost matters.

But IMHO the Roxul Safe N Sound is just over-priced compared to their plain-jane fluff.

Definitely. It seems there's a lot of hype and marketing, as you've pointed out, in the sound proofing field for materials. Much like the hi-fi market.


                Brad      

[EL34]

Nice man cave!

If it was my space, my first concern would be humidity levels on all my gear

What's the humidity level like down there?

[PRR]

> What's the humidity level like down there?

Seems to be North Montana (on the Loonie side of the line). Colorado is dry, Montana is higher and dryer, Alberta may be similar?

Unless he's on the river-bottom, I'd expect very-dry, certainly nothing like back in New Jersey or much of the eastern USA.

[EL34]

Below ground spaces can get pretty humid if the outside of the block wall was not treated right

When I built my two story work building, the ground floor is 12 ft under wet red dirt at the back and side walls

I used Bituthene rubber membrane and the walls have been dry as a bone ever since
Then 3/4 inch thick 4 x 8 blue styro sheets go over that for insulation
There's a French drain at the base of the wall
Then it is back filled with the dirt

Expensive, but what a great system
Way better than just slapping on some tar over the block

http://www.na.graceconstruction.com/custom/international/downloads/lithuania/Bituthene4000.pdf

[TubeGeek]

It's pretty much bone dry where I am in Alberta.  I'm 45 mins away from The Montana border, on the loonie side as PRR pointed out.  If anything I should add humidity to my man cave.

This house has some kind of styrofoam insulation (Logix panelling) around the outside of the foundation so dirt never makes contact with the cement.  This is supposed to keep things warmer in the basement.  Maybe it's working, not sure really, I do notice it's 4 degrees cooler in the basement than the main floor or second floor.

I went browsing at the hardware store and I really need to come up with a solid plan before I buy anything!  I didn't realize how expensive things can get when it comes to house stuff.  Landscaping is gonna kill my man cave budget

I think what is going to happen this year is first priority will be landscaping over this spring and summer. In the fall I will begin concentrating time and funds on the basement just in time for our sometimes crazy cold winter season.  This gives me time to do a little here and there and finish it up before next winter.

I have 15 "sound blankets" to hang up around the walls for now and they are working great.  They are made by a company called audi-mute.  I use them when recording and they always come in handy.  You can see them on my walls in the above pics.  They look like moving blankets.

Reading all of your posts has been very very educational and has got me to thinking things over. Thank you.

I am not sure what I'm going to do....first I will read and re-read all your posts and ideas and then try to collect everything and put it into a plan.

Willabe...holy smokes! You've been typing long responses and I appreciate the time you put into this.  I apologize for not having time to really get back to you and everyone else yet.  I will get to it asap.

[Willabe]

No need to apologize and it's been good for me to remember these things.

I've done this a few times and got very good to great results for the money and labor time. I would not have been able to do it with out that book and without being a carpenter and musician. And because of that they all came together in my head and it worked out.

I've looked around the web a bit and it seems there's a LOT of products out there that are just relabeled/rebranded and have fancy promo money backing them. Just like PRR has been saying.

Now some are good BUT are they worth the money compared to regular products? To me it boils down to this.....

You have to look at the overall picture based on wall/floor/ceiling assembles in total cost for materials and labor for the noise reduction you get from them. I don't see it as a 1 for 1 thing as far as materials. It's how they work together as an assembly.

Now with that if the assemblies are not built with the details as they recommend they will not achieve the STC rating they list. Those construction details are a must! This also includes "sound flanking paths". Both of these cause sound leakage and will work against any sound proofing STC number your trying to achieve with any given assembly.    

Jim, PRR and I all think that spray foam is a bad idea and it's not going to get you what you want. Even if you leave space at the bottom of the floor truss cavity for added electric or what ever later, what's in there now will be buried in that stuff.    

I think what is going to happen this year is first priority will be landscaping over this spring and summer. In the fall I will begin concentrating time and funds on the basement just in time for our sometimes crazy cold winter season.  This gives me time to do a little here and there and finish it up before next winter.

I can't stress this enough, buy that book! The things in there work in my experience using them. It's not a long book and is pretty easy to understand the way he's written it. But it takes a little while for it to sink in. There are many more books out on the same subject but I'd read that 1 first as a base line. Again it's on "budget studios".

I've seen your posts and your a very smart man IMO. You'll understand it.  

Take your time and read it and let it sink in over the spring and summer. That way you'll be better able to decide what you want to do before you spend big bucks and time on something that may or may not work.


                   Brad      
          

[TubeGeek]

I found the book on amazon for about $20 so I ordered it.

[Willabe]

I think your gonna like it.

I lent mine to a friend years ago and he wouldn't give it back. He wanted me to buy a new copy that he'd pay for. This was before the internet.

I'm gonna buy a new copy soon.


             Brad    

[jjasilli]

I'm a bit late to the party.  It's great that general humidity is not a problem in your location; but what about flooding? 

[John]

Well, then it would get pretty humid. 

[Willabe]

I'm a bit late to the party.  It's great that general humidity is not a problem in your location; but what about flooding?

Good question, but I would think that dry conditions would mean no flooding?


       Brad      

[TubeGeek]

Flooding isn't an issue either as I am on top of a coulee.  The river is in a valley below me.

The one thing since we are on this track I will need to consider is wind noise.  We get significant wind here and that can cause headaches when recording.  I doubt there is much I can do about that within reason, if it gets too windy we crack open the beer and tequila instead and just have a jam session!

[PRR]

> I didn't realize how expensive things can get when it comes to house stuff.

Even the cheap stuff (screws, faucet washers, closet rods) add up. When I moved in here it was every week at H-D to drop another 100++ bux.

Just dropped $1,100 for shiplap boards for walling a small loft. (And for once I got MAINE wood, not Canada Georgia or New Zealand. Sawmill an hour down the coast.)

> styrofoam insulation .. outside of the foundation so dirt never makes contact with the cement.  This is supposed to keep things warmer in the basement.  ... it's 4 degrees cooler in the basement

Hmmm. I have plain concrete in dirt. Upstairs we keep 62-68 Deg. (F); downstairs runs 55 to 52. Say 10 degrees F colder. If you count in C, 5 or 6 degrees.

And you are not on the Gulf Stream; your ground may be colder than coastal Maine.

Your foam is working. It would take more than unspecified foam to make the real difference where the cellar is no-drag on the heating. I figured 2" foam all the way down (2' in air 6' in dirt) would be slightly better. 6 inches only slightly better; at that point the *floor* loss makes the wall loss moot. Jack the house and slide foam under? (Yeah, I know I can get raised floor panels, and everything costs a lot in house-size bundles.)

[Ritchie200]

The one thing since we are on this track I will need to consider is wind noise.  We get significant wind here and that can cause headaches when recording.  

That's nothing that a few extra watts wouldn't overcome!   Of course that can be the cause of a different kind of headache...

Jim

[Willabe]

Did you get a chance to look through that book yet?


              Brad     

[TubeGeek]

It was delivered to me Monday and I have to really sit down and read through it. It looks like it's full of very useful info or at least enough info to further complicate my plan, in a good way   I have only browsed it so far.

Eventually I'll get around to this project.  I seem to have a overloaded plate full at the moment.  I am doing ok in my basement as is for now.  I wanted to get back to working on equipment asap.

Once I read through the book and repair and build a few more projects, I'll have a fair budget to play with.  The deal I made with myself years ago was I'd only use money I make from this hyper-hobby to expand my gear or recording setup.  I have lined up enough amp work to last me until the beginning of September this year.  I agreed to overhaul a Hammond B3 (1955) and C3 (year unknown) this summer so I'll be treading into new territory, should be a challenge.  

Anyhow, I'll come up with a plan and update when that happens!

[Willabe]

All of what you say sounds good. Glad you have so much work lined up.

That book explains a lot better than I can about sound proofing. Look forward to hear what you think about it.


                          Brad