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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Well Fellas....since I started my build over....  (Read 6416 times)

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Offline hesamadman

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Well Fellas....since I started my build over....
« on: August 09, 2013, 07:18:17 am »
I know a lot of you guys didnt agree with me starting completely over but im glad I did. For a few reasons. I've learned so many things I was doing wrong. First off my soldering joints were terrible. I will blame some of that on my broken soldering iron that was taped together so it would stay straight but obviously the tape would only stay for so long due to the fact that it was so close to the heat so i was left with a limp wobbly soldering iron. ha ha

Heres what im doing different. Tell me what you think.

First I have never de soldered using a wick. Ive used a solder sucker and have not been too successful or clean with it before. The wick is great. I am re using the pots, filter caps, fuse sockets, light socket, switches, and obviously transformers. The pots and caps were de soldered very clean. I just want to make sure that I did not damage anything with excess heat. I bought a capacitor tester to test all caps from here on out. (question-- should I get 50uf from one positive lead to ground lead and the other positive lead to ground lead as well on these filter caps. Not very educated on these filter caps and why there are 2 positive leads?)


Here is a close up of (what I think are power transformers grounds??) The point in showing this is how Ive changed my soldering techniques. I watched a video on tube depots youtube page. They would just strip the lead and stick it through the whole of the component (tube socket, pot, ect) and solder it in then cut off the excess. Well I would always twist it around the pin once the wire was through, which created a huge ball of solder and an ugly joint. So Im glad i found that.



Question----
Is there anything wrong with braiding the 3 wires of the secondary OT and leaving the common free? I only did this for a clean install. If not I will just twist them all together.



Here is a zoomed out pic of my beginning heater wiring. Im still waiting on new tube sockets but I ran the first feed off the light. Keeping it clean and tight against chassis.



This close up of light socket is a bitter sweet thing. Its good because I did a good job on one lead....and bad because I burnt the insulation with my iron on the other lead.... but all in all I am developing a much better technique. This new soldering station helps.

Well......hope this looks much more pleasing to you guys. I am feeling better about it and I will do things in the right order this time.






Offline sluckey

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Re: Well Fellas....since I started my build over....
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2013, 08:50:45 am »
Quote
(question-- should I get 50uf from one positive lead to ground lead and the other positive lead to ground lead as well on these filter caps. Not very educated on these filter caps and why there are 2 positive leads?)
Each positive terminal represents a separate cap. In your case, you have two 50µF caps in the same can. The negative terminal is common to both caps. Yes, you should measure 50µF between each positive terminal and the common negative terminal.

Quote
They would just strip the lead and stick it through the whole of the component (tube socket, pot, ect) and solder it in then cut off the excess.
That's a terrible idea. I know, a lot of people do it. But the truth is that you need to crimp the wire to the lug or terminal to get a good mechanical and electrical connection. The solder is used to hold it all together and should not be solely relied on to provide the electrical connection. You will not find wires just poked thru a hole in high quality equipment. And with practice you'll be able to make a good looking, high quality, and reliable crimped solder connection. Here's an example...



Quote
Is there anything wrong with braiding the 3 wires of the secondary OT and leaving the common free?
Nothing wrong with braiding. Some do, some don't. I don't. I usually just twist them together and route to the jacks, selector switch, etc. Sometimes I just use cable ties. Depends on the layout and the phase of the moon.

Quote
This close up of light socket is a bitter sweet thing. Its good because I did a good job on one lead....and bad because I burnt the insulation with my iron on the other lead.... but all in all I am developing a much better technique.
I highly recommend crimping those high current filament wires all the way down the string.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline tubenit

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Re: Well Fellas....since I started my build over....
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2013, 08:56:02 am »
+1 in following all of Sluckey's advice.

With respect, Tubenit

Offline eleventeen

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Re: Well Fellas....since I started my build over....
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2013, 09:33:17 am »
VAST improvement, congratulations. Braiding? Ehhh...

Next slight refinement, and you are on your way, is to mentally calibrate how far back from a terminal or lug you strip the insulation. The larger the joint, in terms of how many wires go to it, the better off you may be by pre-tinning the wires/elements that go to it. A solder connection is all of a 1: chemical event (yes, the penetration of the oxides and the mixing of the metals is a chem reaction) 2: a capillary-action event, and 3: a mechanical connection. If the items are tinned, and I mean freshly tinned, the chemical part does not have to work as hard or even at all. This eases the flow of the molten solder, it all happens faster, thus less heat gets dumped into the joint. Point being, is if you have to dump a lot of heat into a connection, the less likely the insulation will be melted back. And yet...you DO want that little space between the insul & the joint. And, you want it uniform. You don't want the insulation touching the joint.

This is just a consideration that if you want it to look nice, and it seems like you do, then you acquire certain habits and they get incorporated into your work. An old Fender amp is not what most would call wired all that nice. Absolutely functional, but not mil-spec, as we used to say. Next time you are in a surplus store, take note of various chassis-wiring techniques you can observe & try to emulate some/most of them. You're not going to be perfect and there's little to be gained obsessing over it...plus this takes a lot of builds to get super-right. But, you can get in your mind the image of super neat wiring. You're doing quite well, to my eye.

Offline eleventeen

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Re: Well Fellas....since I started my build over....
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2013, 09:56:52 am »
By the way...in terms of just sticking a wire thru a terminal and then cutting it off after soldering (vs making a crimp around the terminal)

Nobody can suggest this is a "best practice", but I do this all the time when breadboarding stuff...because I want it to be easy to pull something apart. On a permanent build, try for the crimp. Far more "roadworthy". But also consider, that if you have to handle the wire and grab it with your pliers ten times, then you are imposing oxides into the elements of the solder joint PLUS making the effective heat-sink of the total solder joint larger. So, this speaks to pre-tinning the elements as I said in my prior post. The more you do this, the more you should check your work BEFORE you solder....right? And then solder multiple connections in a flock or a gaggle, all at once. Leads to better-looking work much of the time.

When you just stick the wire through, solder, and THEN cut...the CUT END of the wire will not be contained within the solder joint, right? Thus, theoretically it is vulnerable to corrosion. I once worked for a company where this drove the owner completely nuts. I could never figure out why, but that's why. 1972. We were building little 3" x 5" interface cards, on PC cards.

Offline Willabe

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Re: Well Fellas....since I started my build over....
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2013, 09:58:53 am »
+1 in following all of Sluckey's advice.

Yep.


             Brad       :icon_biggrin:

Offline hesamadman

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Re: Well Fellas....since I started my build over....
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2013, 10:14:34 am »


Quote
I highly recommend crimping those high current filament wires all the way down the string.

When you say crimp my connections, do you just mean let the lead stick through the hole and bend it back?

Also, what do you mean by crimping down the line of high current filaments?

Offline hesamadman

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Re: Well Fellas....since I started my build over....
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2013, 10:21:32 am »
If the items are tinned, and I mean freshly tinned, the chemical part does not have to work as hard or even at all. This eases the flow of the molten solder, it all happens faster, thus less heat gets dumped into the joint. P

Is pre-tinning just lightly soldering a joint?

Offline eleventeen

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Re: Well Fellas....since I started my build over....
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2013, 10:52:12 am »
Crimping = making a mechanical connection by winding the wire or lead around the terminal such that the wire cannot be pulled out. Not three times around it; one bend, one hook. Cut off (if you are using stranded wire) as many/much wayward strands as you can. Ideally, you want the ENDS of each of those strands to be contained within the eventual solder joint.

"Pre-tinning" is a term I am making up to differentiate from the tinning that most things have from the mfr. The word is "tinning". Suppose you are using stranded wire. As supplied, any quality, non-Radio Shack stranded wire IS tinned. On the reel it will be called "tinned copper wire; and that is why it is silver/grey and not copper colored. You strip the wire, then most people twist the strands tight(er) with their fingers. Speaking in terms of the ideal, you are imposing acids from your fingers on the strands. The flux will easily overcome that, but not immediately. Thus, the act of you twisting the wires together forces the flux to work harder and increases heat time. Nevertheless, you generally HAVE to twist those strands together to get them thru anything but the largest holes...for example, on a 9-pin socket. Esp if there are multiple wires going to it. So, if you DON'T twist the wires with your fingers (meaning, you never touch it) but instead tin the stripped end of the wire with a minimalist amount of solder, you don't get the finger acid, the thing is now freshly tinned w/a little bit of excess flux on it, AND it's easier to stick thru the little hole in the terminal. The eventual solder joint will generally look better. If you DO need to twist the strands to get them thru a small hole, go ahead, then tin the wire, and you end up in the same spot. When you are done with the solder joint, ideally, you should be able to see most of the individual strands, eg; it should NOT look like the oversoldered "BBs" like on old Fenders. The green heater wires Sluckey posted in his pix are practically perfect: Small, minimalist crimp. Can see the individual strands. ENDS of the strands are contained within the joint. Minimal solder used. Shiny, not grainy. IF such a joint were cracked, OR, if you had that odd condition where the wire is encapsulated by flux and not really making a good connection to the terminal, you could almost certainly see it. (You surely cannot on a Fender BB) You can see the joint was not overheated because solder did not wick itself down closer to the plastic material of the tube socket. Excellent. And very achievable, with really not much more work, maybe even less work. Try not to touch the wire with your fingers.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2013, 11:00:50 am by eleventeen »

Offline sluckey

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Re: Well Fellas....since I started my build over....
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2013, 12:00:33 pm »
Quote
I highly recommend crimping those high current filament wires all the way down the string.
The "string" is all the filament wire circuit, kinda like a "string" of Christmas tree lights. I simply meant crimp every wire connection at every tube socket, ie, "all the way down the string". A poor connection at one tube socket may cause a problem with that tube as well as other tubes farther down the string.

Tinning is a process of using flux and solder to lightly coat a wire or component lead. I even tin some turrets if they are oxidized or dull looking. Usually just a tiny drop of liquid flux will clean moderately dirty turrets sufficiently to receive solder.

I keep a small tin of rosin paste flux and a small squeeze bottle of liquid flux beside my solder station. My procedure for preparing a wire to be connected to a tube socket for example goes like this... strip, dip, tin, and finally connect. I do this for every wire that I will solder into a project. Sounds like a lot of work but not really.

1. Strip. I strip the end of a wire. If there are any strands out of place, I carefully twist them back into shape, matching the original twist as close as possible. (Many times I'm working with more than one wire.)

2. Dip. I then dip the bare end of the wire into the tin of paste flux. This will remove contaminates and make the solder take to the wire with less heat.

3. Tin. Now I use the iron to apply a light coat of solder to the bare end of the wire. As soon as I remove the iron tip I will use a flick of the finger to remove any excess solder from the wire. I want to see the individual strands.

Now the wire is properly prepared to make a good mechanical connection that will also look good when the final solder connection is made.

Oh, and one other thing. Use that wet sponge! Every time I turn on my station, I grab the sponge and go wet it. Now, every time I pick up my iron the tip gets wiped clean. I really mean EVERY TIME. Not just occasionally. If I'm making several solder connections at once, I wipe the tip between every connection.

Yes, this all takes more time than just poking a wire in a hole and filling up the hole with solder. But not that much more time. The benefits are worth the extra effort IMO. I can't remember the last poor solder connection I made and had to troubleshoot. (I have totally missed a connection when lacing a turret board though.  :icon_biggrin:  ) I like having confidence that my solder joints will hold up.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline PRR

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Re: Well Fellas....since I started my build over....
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2013, 05:34:07 pm »
Military/NASA practice takes a 3/4 wrap around lug or turret. Not a poke, not a 13-turn snarl.

I will stand in defense of simple poke IF there is LOTS of joint-area AND your joint is GOOD, and it's not going in a Jeep or up to orbit. Living-room amps sure don't need Mil/NASA robustness; once a month in a local club may not either. Road-worth gig-amps are a marginal case; use good sense.

Offline TubeGeek

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Re: Well Fellas....since I started my build over....
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2013, 08:59:49 pm »
I do like to see leads wrapped around when building an amp but not when I am servicing or replacing components. That drives me nuts…short drive too. :icon_biggrin:

It is a good feeling when you have nice clean wiring in an amp you built yourself. Good job!

Offline alerich

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Re: Well Fellas....since I started my build over....
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2013, 12:08:46 am »
I see the logic of the wrap and crimp practice but I was giving this some thought tonight. Isn't a PCB based amp simply poking a lead through a hole where the solder is basically doing the work? And the eyelet tag boards of the Leo Fender era amplifiers. Isn't that the same approach? I think the quality of your solder joint is far more important.
Some of the most amazing music in history was made with equipment that's not as good as what you own right now.

Offline sluckey

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Re: Well Fellas....since I started my build over....
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2013, 09:08:16 am »
Quote
Isn't a PCB based amp simply poking a lead through a hole where the solder is basically doing the work?
Only the cheap ones. Industrial quality boards usually have component leads poked thru plate-thru holes and then the lead is bent at a slight angle to insure mechanical contact between the component lead and the plate-thru hole. Ever notice that the leads on a 14 pin DIP chip are not at a 90° angle to the body of the chip? They are splayed out slightly and won't even fit the board. Using a special (but simple) insertion tool to install the chip to the board will compress the leads temporarily so the chip will fit the holes on the board. Removing the insertion tool allows the leads to relax again, providing a nice, even mechanical contact with the plate-thru holes.

Some pcbs will even have leads such as resistors and caps actually bent over enough to provide a mechanical lap connection to the pcb trace.

Quote
And the eyelet tag boards of the Leo Fender era amplifiers. Isn't that the same approach?
Not quite. Component leads are bent over on the bottom side of the eyelet board. This prevents the component from falling off the board while other components are installed. More importantly, a mechanical connection is made between the component lead and the eyelet. Ever try to remove a filter cap from an old Fender board? And wonder why the lead doesn't just easily pull out as soon as the solder is melted?

Take a look at this short video...
Fender Factory Tour: How to Build a Handwired Amp
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline SILVERGUN

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Re: Well Fellas....since I started my build over....
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2013, 11:19:19 am »
Take a look at this short video... :huh:

The whole time I'm watching this I'm thinking "Hmmmmm,,,,,all women"....and then he says it:

"Because they have more patience"   :l2:
Patience hesamadman,,,,patience

Here's a great little video that I have found to be very useful:
http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Tube-Amps-Gerald-Weber/dp/B002B8BU7Q

Offline dude

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Re: Well Fellas....since I started my build over....
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2013, 12:16:57 pm »
I've read and read about the mechanical connection and agree. The only "hang up" I have is the bend on tube sockets with stranded wire sure holds up well but on the repair side they can be a hassle to remove.

Now maybe be I'm not unsoldering the connection properly...?  Should you cut the wire as close to the pin as possible then remove the small pieces of wire or try to save the length of wire and remove...? What if you needed the length?  I find trying to save the length of wire can be a challenge especially on cap cans where several wires can be soldered. I have been cutting at the sockets and if needed adding wire, best way?

Any info on this? I always had a problem of using a wick. Perhaps any info posted would help hesamadman as he had unsolder many joints and might have a few more.

It's good to good to go over the basic's posted here with hesam...'s build.

al

al     
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Offline silverfox

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Re: Well Fellas....since I started my build over....
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2013, 01:01:21 pm »
images pics hiwatt

You can replace Hiwatt with any of the other brands and you will come up with search returns of images: circuit boards, chassis, wiring etc. as examples of construction techniques. Wiring, component placements. Plenty here too.

I had a link to a catalogue of amp gut shots that I used to create a library of techniques. Unfortunately that was several re-installations of XP ago and I can't seem to find the link now. Still have all the pics.

I rebuilt my 1st amp 3x for the same reasons. Looked terrible and didn't work; and it still resembles what it is: A successful lab experiment. Much neater though.

btw- Switched to Ubuntu

Silverfox.

Offline eleventeen

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Re: Well Fellas....since I started my build over....
« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2013, 05:44:37 pm »
"Now maybe be I'm not unsoldering the connection properly...?  Should you cut the wire as close to the pin as possible then remove the small pieces of wire or try to save the length of wire and remove...? What if you needed the length?  I find trying to save the length of wire can be a challenge especially on cap cans where several wires can be soldered. I have been cutting at the sockets and if needed adding wire, best way?"

Everyone has their fave techniques. It is different if you are trying to perform a functional repair vs trying to preserve a vintage look where the inclusion of a piece of modern thermoplastic-insul wire in an otherwise old cloth-wired Fender would be a crime against humanity.

Personally I don't much like wick on tube stuff. There are some circumstances, mostly PC board, where it is the only way, however. I like solder suckers. What I myself like to do to take apart a tightly crimped joint is to 1: suck off the excess solder 2: Cut the wire NOT close to the connection point. Leave enough to grab w/your needlenose--1/2" or so. 1" is even better, then you really whip the stub-end around a lot in the next step. 3: Heat the joint and then with a needlenose pliers wiggle pretty vigorously the wire stub, such that you both get a cold solder joint AND open up the loops formed in the original crimping operation. Then, with a flush-cutting pliers (Doug sells them, those red & black HAKKOs and they are cheap and SUPERB for electronics work) you can generally cut the loops which have now been opened up. Sometimes, depending upon just how cold (meaning rotten, crumbly-crystalline) the solder joint is, you can just break or pull the wire(s) out of the original hole thru the terminal. Ideally, you cut the loop, the end-end falls off, then the incoming wire can just be pulled or wiggled out. Personally, I prefer not to splice an ordinary point A to point B wire, just replace the entire length if need be.


Offline DrNomis

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Re: Well Fellas....since I started my build over....
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2013, 04:39:33 am »
When I did a Basic Electronics course at the Charles Darwin Uni here in Darwin in the mid 90's, we were taught this Wire-Soldering procedure:


1, Cut the wire to length.

2, Strip the insulation off the end of the wire.

3, Twist the individual wire-strands together to make one solid strand.

4, Tin the wire-end so that it's shiny.


Also, when soldering a connection never use the soldering-iron tip to transfer the molten solder to the connection (this just increases the chance of making a dry-joint), tin the soldering-iron tip then place the tip on the connection you're soldering, give the joint time to heat up, then apply the solder, I've followed this method and my solder-joints always come out good..... :smiley:

Offline hesamadman

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Re: Well Fellas....since I started my build over....
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2013, 05:11:26 am »
Yes, this all takes more time than just poking a wire in a hole and filling up the hole with solder. But not that much more time. The benefits are worth the extra effort IMO. I can't remember the last poor solder connection I made and had to troubleshoot. (I have totally missed a connection when lacing a turret board though.  :icon_biggrin:  ) I like having confidence that my solder joints will hold up.


Im glad that you have been persistent about wiping the iron on the sponge. I have done it after every single solder. The iron cost me $150 so in addition to me wanting a station that will always produce a good solder.....I dont want to throw away 150 bucks. Ha

The extra time that it all takes is worth it. I want to do it as best as possible. The flux you use the same as plumbing flux?

Offline DrNomis

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Re: Well Fellas....since I started my build over....
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2013, 07:58:09 am »
I'd recommend investing in a good temperature-controlled soldering station, provided you've done everything else right, a good temperature controlled soldering station will guarantee good solder joints, also, make sure the tip of the soldering iron is in good condition and that it's clean and well tinned, they say that there's three rules to good soldering, Cleanliness, Cleanliness, and Cleanliness..... :smiley:

I'm currently using a 60 Watt Temperature-Controlled Station I bought from my local Jaycar Electronics store for about $125.00, it does the job pretty well..... :smiley:

Offline sluckey

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Re: Well Fellas....since I started my build over....
« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2013, 09:27:53 am »
Quote
The flux you use the same as plumbing flux?
No. Some plumbing flux contains acid! Don't buy electronic flux from Home Depot. Go to an electronics store. EBay is also a good source for flux. I recently bought some liquid KESTER 951 from this guy on eBay...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NO-CLEAN-LIQUID-FLUX-KESTER-951-FOR-PS3-YLOD-REFLOW-/130480381931?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e613c9feb

The paste flux I have is from the USAF depot at Robins AFB. I've had it since the '70s. No brand name, but from the smell of the fumes, it's rosin based. You can see a tin of my paste sitting on top of my PACE station...



Liquid flux would be great for all my soldering needs, but I prefer the paste for projects when there will be a lot of soldering. I can leave the top off the tin can and dip wire ends easily. And I don't have to worry about spilling. I grab the liquid squirt bottle if I need a drop of flux inside the project.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline eleventeen

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Re: Well Fellas....since I started my build over....
« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2013, 10:00:23 am »
"The flux you use the same as plumbing flux?"

Don't even think about that! Banish that thought from your mind!

Offline alerich

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Re: Well Fellas....since I started my build over....
« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2013, 10:29:20 am »
I've been using this same tin of Burnley Soldering Paste for over thirty years. Like sluckey, I religiously wipe my tip on a wet sponge but I also dip it occasionally right in the tin. Good stuff.
Some of the most amazing music in history was made with equipment that's not as good as what you own right now.

Offline sluckey

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Re: Well Fellas....since I started my build over....
« Reply #24 on: August 12, 2013, 10:49:57 am »
Quote
Burnley Soldering Paste
I remember that. I had that same tin back in the '60s and '70s. You can still buy some 'vintage' tins on eBay. And S. Korea has remanufactured also. Good stuff. Made from real trees!  :icon_biggrin:
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline John

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Re: Well Fellas....since I started my build over....
« Reply #25 on: August 12, 2013, 11:05:52 am »
I've never used flux, but it sounds like I should start.  :icon_biggrin:

I've got a 40 watt Weller iron from Home Depot. It works better than I do. ;)
Tapping into the inner tube.

 


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