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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Simple (?) output transforer question  (Read 6751 times)

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Offline Dreams

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Simple (?) output transforer question
« on: August 19, 2013, 10:26:34 pm »
Say you've got a transformer with a few secondary taps. Let's say an 8 ohm and a 16 ohm. Let's also say that the 8 ohm section goes open. What are the arguements against using the section between the 8 ohm tap and the 16 ohm tap as a sort of "spare" 8 ohm?

Offline Ed_Chambley

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Re: Simple (?) output transforer question
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2013, 05:57:34 am »
No argument if it works. :dontknow:
The only "argument" i would propose is I do not have an amp that I think that little of because the transformer has a winding short.  If you have 2 taps or 3, I cannot understand how the 16 would work and not the 8 since it is tapped from the same winding.

It is possible to repair.

Offline Dreams

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Re: Simple (?) output transforer question
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2013, 01:45:38 pm »
Haha yeah. In the real world, 'if it works it works', well, works. I'm just trying to get to the theory side of it. I'm not too familiar with transformer winding; just curious.

Like This:

I-------Speaker-------I
I                              I
I                              I
I-----------------------I-----------------------I
Com                      8ohm                       16ohm


To This:

I-------Speaker-------I
I                              I
I                              I
I---------  X   ---------I-----------------------I
Com                      8ohm                       16ohm


To This:

                               I-------Speaker-------I
                               I                              I
                               I                              I
I---------  X   ---------I-----------------------I
X                           Com                       8ohm


Dig?

Offline Willabe

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Re: Simple (?) output transforer question
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2013, 02:12:10 pm »
I don't think that's right.

If an OT has an 8 ohm and a 16 ohm tap then for the 16 ohm tap to work the whole secondary winding has to be good.

I guess if the second part of OT's winding had a short you might in some cases be able to use the 8 ohm tap still.

The 16 ohm tap (in this example) is not really a tap as it's the end of the secondary winding. But the 8 ohm is a tap. It's tapped off part way through the whole secondary winding.

Now if your OT's 16 ohm tap is still working but the 8 ohm tap is not, I think the tap itself is bad and not any part of the secondary winding.

You may or you may not be able to open the OT and be able to reach the point where the tap wire is connected to the secondary winding. It might be buried to far under the outer winds to get at.

Or you might kill the OT messing with it trying to fix it? You'd have to be very careful. OTOH if the OT is working fine with the 16 ohm tap why not just go with that?


                 Brad     :icon_biggrin: 

Offline sluckey

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Re: Simple (?) output transforer question
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2013, 02:41:20 pm »
What you propose should work. At least on paper.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline Willabe

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Re: Simple (?) output transforer question
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2013, 02:50:32 pm »
Ohhh, yes, use the other end of the winding as the start.


               Brad      :icon_biggrin:

Offline PRR

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Re: Simple (?) output transforer question
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2013, 12:06:20 am »
> At least on paper

Need more paper.

Write the voltages. Assume 16 Watts. That's 16V in 16 ohms, 11.3V in 8 ohms.

Therefore from "8" to "16" you find 4.7V. NOT 11.3V.

The correct load for "8" to "16" is 1.38 ohms.

And since it was supposed to be going to a 16 ohm, there is likely almost an ohm of winding resistance already. So output will be poor.

For confirmation: hi-fi tricksters sometimes "center tap" an existing 4/8/16 winding by grounding the *4* tap and taking 0 and 16 as the ends (usually as push-pull NFB to power tube cathodes).


Also agree that if "16" works and "8" does not, the problem has to be in the tap. *Sometimes* a little careful exploration will find a bad joint in a place it can be fixed.

Offline Willabe

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Re: Simple (?) output transforer question
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2013, 12:43:58 am »
Ohh, because the 8 ohm and 16 ohm are not truly center taped at 8 ohm between the start and finish of the secondary wind.


                  Brad      :think1:

Offline sluckey

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Re: Simple (?) output transforer question
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2013, 07:56:46 am »
I seem to be thinking too fast more and more these days.  :BangHead:
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline Willabe

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Re: Simple (?) output transforer question
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2013, 11:19:26 am »
I seem to be thinking too fast more and more these days.  :BangHead:

Only Jesus was perfect. Your thought still has merit IMO because there still is another part of the secondary winding that could be used.


              Brad     :icon_biggrin:

Offline Ed_Chambley

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Re: Simple (?) output transforer question
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2013, 05:38:09 am »
> At least on paper

Need more paper.

Write the voltages. Assume 16 Watts. That's 16V in 16 ohms, 11.3V in 8 ohms.

Therefore from "8" to "16" you find 4.7V. NOT 11.3V.

The correct load for "8" to "16" is 1.38 ohms.

And since it was supposed to be going to a 16 ohm, there is likely almost an ohm of winding resistance already. So output will be poor.

For confirmation: hi-fi tricksters sometimes "center tap" an existing 4/8/16 winding by grounding the *4* tap and taking 0 and 16 as the ends (usually as push-pull NFB to power tube cathodes).


Also agree that if "16" works and "8" does not, the problem has to be in the tap. *Sometimes* a little careful exploration will find a bad joint in a place it can be fixed.
Assuming 16 watts as a basis, where do you derive 11.3V in 8 ohms?  Never looked past my nose on this, but we were all initially thinking it would be tapped equal.  If 16V is 16Watts at 16 ohms, is the 8 ohm tap 11.3 volts at 11.3 watts?

Need more paper please.

Offline Ed_Chambley

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Re: Simple (?) output transforer question
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2013, 05:48:48 am »
I seem to be thinking too fast more and more these days.  :BangHead:
No worries, you are retired.  You should be starting all your comments with "In my day............" the follow it up by exaggerated stories which you tell to the same people over and over. :laugh:

Offline jjasilli

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Re: Simple (?) output transforer question
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2013, 11:14:58 am »
Assuming 16 watts as a basis, where do you derive 11.3V in 8 ohms?  Never looked past my nose on this, but we were all initially thinking it would be tapped equal.  If 16V is 16Watts at 16 ohms, is the 8 ohm tap 11.3 volts at 11.3 watts?

google: Ohms Law pie chart.  Watts (Power) = Voltage2 / Resistance

Offline Ed_Chambley

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Re: Simple (?) output transforer question
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2013, 12:41:58 pm »
Assuming 16 watts as a basis, where do you derive 11.3V in 8 ohms?  Never looked past my nose on this, but we were all initially thinking it would be tapped equal.  If 16V is 16Watts at 16 ohms, is the 8 ohm tap 11.3 volts at 11.3 watts?

google: Ohms Law pie chart.  Watts (Power) = Voltage2 / Resistance

OOPS, sorry.  I did not think of this being so simple.

Offline Dreams

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Re: Simple (?) output transforer question
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2013, 01:23:38 pm »
Ok, great. Thanks everyone.

Sluckey, don't beat yourself up. At least you re-stated my question in better terms than my vague explanation and poorly-formated text-based graphic could. Thank you.

I suspected I was wrong on my original question, I just didn't know the proof would be SO simple. I was half expecting to hear about flux density and winding resistances and inter-winding capacitances, etc.

I've got to learn to do some math BEFORE I ask.

Also I'm gonna draw diagrams more often....

Thank you to everyone else who chimed in. There is no transformer though; I was just thinking about if it COULD be done.

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Simple (?) output transforer question
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2013, 05:08:16 am »
Watts (Power) = Voltage2 / Resistance

Interestingly, the 4Ω tap is the point that has half the voltage of the 16Ω tap. The reason is the "square" in the formula above.

Offline PRR

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Re: Simple (?) output transforer question
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2013, 10:54:55 pm »
> I looked at a few transformer diagrams, and did not see the voltage outputs for the various taps.

Why would they? Power, Volt, and Ohm formulas tell you this.

I said "Assume 16 Watts." That was an arbitrary pick. Why 16 Watts? Because we KNOW, on sight, that 16 Volts in 16 Ohms is 1 Ampere and thus 16 Watts. So right away we know the voltage at the 16 Ohm tap to deliver 16 Watts.

The math for 16 Watts at 8 Ohms is a little harder. But this is something you should be able to do.

I used "assume 16 Watts" for easier math. The Watts does not directly matter, since we were talking about *turns ratios*. It would be the same turns (voltage) ratio if it were 1 Watt or 456 Watts.

Offline tubeswell

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Re: Simple (?) output transforer question
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2013, 04:27:22 am »
Connect the secondary tap(s) that you think are good to a lowish (say 6.3) VAC supply, and measure the resulting VAC across the primary winding. If the VAC between each end of the primary and the primary CT is the same (for each side of the primary), then you know that the OT will reflect a load resistance.

The amount of load resistance will depend on the load impedance you put on the secondary, and the Pr:Sec impedance ratio will be the square of the Pri:Sec VAC ratio. So say your 6.3VAC on the secondary ends up with 141V across each end of the primary, that'd be a Pr:Sec VAC ratio of 22.36:1, which would be a Pri:Sec impedance ratio of 500:1, and so therefore with a 16R speaker attached to the secondary you'd get a load resistance of 16R x 500 = 8k load resistance.
A bus stops at a bus station. A train stops at a train station. On my desk, I have a work station.

Offline PRR

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Re: Simple (?) output transforer question
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2013, 07:32:19 pm »
> 4200 ohms (458V) CT at a reference frequency of 1KHz

What is the impedance at other frequencies?

> impendences of 2, 4 and 8 ohms with voltages of 10v, 14.14v and 20v respectively. ...calcs shown in this thread don't seem to hold.

Where?

4:1 impedance is 2:1 of voltage.

Ohm IS right.

Offline PRR

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Re: Simple (?) output transforer question
« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2013, 07:23:10 pm »
16V:11.3V is same ratio as 20V:14.14V.

The question does not involve reactances or tolerances.

I'm not sure what your point is.

Offline PRR

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Re: Simple (?) output transforer question
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2013, 09:23:29 pm »
Audio transformers are broad-band devices. The impedance ratios are the turns-ratios (squared) over a wide range of frequencies, typically at least two decades.

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Simple (?) output transforer question
« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2013, 07:14:23 pm »
ohm is correct for dc, but don't forget the complex numbers when dealing with ac.

The error is you thought we were dealing with impedance when actually we're dealing with .... Impedance!  :l2:

You'll laugh too in a moment, once it becomes clear.

Where you are stuck is thinking of inductive reactance of the transformer's primary (or secondary, or whichever). The reactance (measured in ohms) varies with frequency and being inductive, gets bigger as frequency increases. The transformer's winding does have inductance, and its value may limit how low a frequency the transformer can handle without a reduction in level.

But so far, we've looked at a transformer as though it were just a coil; coils are nice frequency-dependent resistors, but a coil alone can't couple a signal the way a transformer does. Which brings up an important property...

When you have at least 2 coils sharing a common core, something interesting happens. If you apply a voltage across one of the coils, it will induce a voltage in the other coil. Let's say your coils are 200 turns and 50 turns, and you apply 100vac to the 200-turn coil. The transformer will cause the same number of volts-per-turn to be induced in the 50-turn coil.

100v / 200 turns = 0.5v per turn
0.5v * 50 turns = 25 v

This example conveniently showed how 1/2-turns arrives at 1/4 voltage output, but also legitimately shows how a transformer couples from one winding to another. The fundamental property is volts-per-turn among all coils is equal.

Now transformers have another fundamental property observed by the original experimenters: power in equals power out.

Because volts steps up or down in direct proportion to the number of turns of each coil, if power in equals power out then the current steps down or up in inverse proportion to the number of turns. And using the third fundamental electrical property, if current stepped down in a given coil while voltage stepped up, then impedance must have stepped up in direct proportion to the voltage.

So a transformer winding will have a d.c. resistance, and will have a reactance due to its inductance, and the vector-sum of these is indeed impedance... but no one cares about these facts first.

Rather, the more useful property is how the transformer steps up/down voltage, solely based on the turns ratio of the transformer. And the transformer doesn't have any set impedance in this respect until a load is attached to the secondary. After all, you can know exactly how much voltage will be induced in the secondary by the applied primary voltage and turns ratio, but you don't know how much current flows in the secondary or primary until you define the load attached to the secondary.

Ex:
Using the same 200-turn/50-turn transformer as above, with 100v applied to the 200-turn primary, a 25Ω load attached to the secondary results in:
  -  100v / 200 turns * 50 turns / 25Ω = 1A of secondary current.
  -  100v / 200 turns * 50 turns * 1A = 25w of secondary power
  -  And power in = power out, so 25w / 100v = 0.25A primary current
  -  Calculate primary impedance as 100v / 0.25A = 400Ω

Where did 400Ω come from? Reflected impedance, the one we typically care about in an output transformer. We calculated it based on a knowledge of power in = power out, the number of turns on each coil, the voltage applied to the primary and the load attached to the secondary. But we could have gone a shorter path.

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Simple (?) output transforer question
« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2013, 07:15:22 pm »
Remember how we defined impedance as changing proportionately to the number of turns (and also voltage) of each coil (because of power in = power out)? Let's use that turns ratio to figure reflected primary impedance directly. The catch is you need to remember that for impedance we will use the turns ratio, squared (for the same reason power = V2/R).

primary turns / secondary turns = turns ratio
primary impedance = turns ratio2 * secondary impedance
200 turns / 50 turns = 4:1
42 * 25Ω = 16 * 25Ω = 400Ω

Exactly what we got before.

Now this 400Ω impedance... it's not based on the primary's dcr or inductance, only on the property of transformers to reflect an impedance as part of stepping up/down voltage/current. Remember when tying to figure this stuff that the fundamental property of transformer coils is they have the same number of volts-per-turn among all coils and you'll be able to derive these properties yourself the way I just did.


Before you point it out, yes, all the foregoing assumes an ideal transformer. For real transformers, power out will be some large percentile of power in, but will be less by the amount of transformer losses (core and copper losses). The audio transformer will also appear to deviate from the reflected impedance by the finite primary inductance (at some low frequency, response drops off) and by leakage reactances (at some high frequency, response drops off).

But these things are exceptions to the fundamental properties of transformers, and you'll be best served by forgetting about them until such time as you have a real need to work with/study them.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2013, 06:38:47 pm by HotBluePlates »

 


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