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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Conventional Current vs. Electron Flow (Redux)  (Read 3387 times)

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Offline HotBluePlates

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Conventional Current vs. Electron Flow (Redux)
« on: August 23, 2013, 09:51:47 pm »
Since the essence of the original thread got misplaced, and the thread ultimately locked, here's a quick explanation that may help some:

Quote from: Gary_S
Why do most amp textbook authors not go with electron flow as the basis of their drawings in books? When you start learning about all this we study it from a valve perspective where electrons are moving - to +. To then read a book where the author is using conventional current can be quite confusing if you're trying to work out charge paths for caps for instance.

...

Some people say you can use either way of looking at it as long as you stay with that one method. But in amps certain areas are maybe better thought of as one way over the other in certain instances?

Last question first: yes, in different situations one perspective will be easier to understand than the other.

First question: "Why do most amp textbook authors not go with electron flow ..." Well, it's called "conventional" current flow for a reason; because it was the accepted convention.

Why? Well, budding electricians studied observable electric charge, both static and the presumed movement of charge. They assigned a value to the charges they were measuring, but didn't understand the structure of the atom at that point. Charge was described as moving from positive to negative, according to their method of assigning a value to charges.

Well, time passed with this being the "convention" before we found that the protons in an atom's nucleus have the + charge, while orbiting electrons have the - charge. Unless the matter made up of those atoms is physically moving, the + charge can't be going anywhere, so it stands to reason that electrons are "flowing".

But that's not the end of the story. There are math techniques and formulas to describe the movement of current around a circuit and the division of voltages; in general these techniques are easier to grasp if current is assumed to move from + to - because then all numbers stay positive. In most of the classes Sluckey alluded to where the prof says "cause I said" you will find many equations being manipulated which look less confusing if you assume conventional current flow.

But there's another reason not to ditch conventional current flow. If you take an atom with a balanced charge and suck out 1 electron, the atom has a "hole" where an electron could go, and a positive net charge. Say an electron moved from an adjacent balanced atom into that "hole". The original atom is now balanced, and the atom next to it has a hole and a net positive charge.

Imagine this sequence continuing from one atom to the next with that "hole" moving atom-by-atom towards a net negative charge at the end of the conductor. This would be "hole flow" as opposed to "electron flow" and would match conventional current in that the charge carrier (a hole in this case) appears to move from + towards -.

Hole flow isn't a helpful mental image in a vacuum tube; it is, however, a helpful construct in certain semiconductor materials where electrons are unable to even enter because the overall charge of the solid material.

When you are ready to understand this, it will all fall in place and seem so simple. Until then, pick the version that works best for you. Generally, that will be electron flow inside a vacuum tube but conventional current flow outside the tube or when doing math calculations.

Offline jjasilli

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Re: Conventional Current vs. Electron Flow (Redux)
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2013, 05:04:29 pm »
The wild turkey, as opposed to to the domesticated version, is a venerable creature.  And, our national colors of red, white & blue are from the wild gobbler during Spring mating season.

Ben Franklin was not "wrong" regarding the flow of electricity.  As HotBlue points out, it is proper to consider a positive flow going in the opposite direction of the negative flow of electrons.  Such relativity of flow was substantiated by Einstein.

Pragmatically, plate current is understood to flow down from the plate toward ground.  But cathode current may be considered to  flow up from ground, through the cathode towards the plate (and screen, if any).

Offline tubeswell

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Re: Conventional Current vs. Electron Flow (Redux)
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2013, 05:09:17 pm »
Accepted convention.  Some of my perusal on this subject, suggests It was Ben Franklin, who started this mess, the same guy that wanted a turkey for our national bird.   :BangHead: :BangHead:

My 63 volkswagon, had a positive ground, and my 67 had a negative ground (or do I really have it backwards :l2:)

I recall my '67 beetle had a +ve ground (I think). I know it was all of 6VDC
A bus stops at a bus station. A train stops at a train station. On my desk, I have a work station.

Offline LHPcope

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Re: Conventional Current vs. Electron Flow (Redux)
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2013, 06:12:28 pm »
Just my 2 cents worth, having been exposed to both theories.  Electron flow, or drift, in a conductor is dependent on the applied voltage and the cross section of the conductor.  In house wiring (240 volts 60 Hz) its said to be around 1*10^-5 to 1*10^-4 meters per second (back and forth). 

Charge on the other hand travels at essentially a large portion of the speed of light in a conductor regardless of the voltage applied. This may not have much practical application in audio amplifiers but is a lot more important in RF and microwave applications.

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Conventional Current vs. Electron Flow (Redux)
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2013, 08:59:56 am »
... Electron flow, or drift ... said to be around 1*10^-5 to 1*10^-4 meters per second (back and forth). 

Charge on the other hand travels at essentially a large portion of the speed of light in a conductor regardless of the voltage applied. ...

This will confuse more folks than help them, because electrons and holes are the "charge carriers" so how can charge move faster than the things carrying it?

Best visual is a length of pipe, filled with golf balls. One ball is painted red, and all others are white. If you push a new golf ball into one end of the pipe, then one pops out the other end almost instantly. Yet if you look at the one red ball, it has only moved one place over.

So individual electrons can have a relatively slow drift yet the result on an applied voltage in a conductor can appear to be very fast.

Offline LHPcope

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Re: Conventional Current vs. Electron Flow (Redux)
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2013, 10:23:35 am »
Quote
Best visual is a length of pipe, filled with golf balls. One ball is painted red, and all others are white. If you push a new golf ball into one end of the pipe, then one pops out the other end almost instantly. Yet if you look at the one red ball, it has only moved one place over.

Well said!

 


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