Rate the "tube tone" PLEASE

[tubenit]

OK,   I've been working on the D'Mars PreAmp trying to capture a decent tube tone.

I've put together a 3 minute sound clip with snippets from 3 different takes.

On a scale of 1-10 with "10" being truly tube like,  PLEASE rate each section (A, B & C) as to where on the scale it sounds like a real tube amp being mic'd and recorded.

Part A goes from  0 - 1:05
Part B goes from 1:07 - 2:09
Part C goes from 2:10 to 3:16  (there is a slight pause in one spot but it's the same recording)

http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=12503620

I would truly love some feedback.  I'd like to know how well or how poorly this effort is turning out.  After I get maybe 4-5 responses, I will share what each part is, the mix and what was being recorded.

THANKS!   Best regards,  Jeff aka Tubenit

[DummyLoad]

part b sounds has the most stage-like presence. 

thanks,

--pete

[tubenit]

Pete, 

THANKS!  Got any thoughts on a scale of 1-10 how close Part A and Part C sound to a true tube tone?

Best regards, Jeff

[Willabe]

Jeff, got your PM and Pam (my wife) and I listened to it a few times and it sounds like a tube amp to us. She's had to listen to a lot of music through the years and I think she has got a pretty good set of ears by now.    

We think it sounds just like a full tube amp.

Now you've got a good set of ears by now, how does it sound to you live in the same room? And how does it respond to you when you play through it?

I'd trust your own answers/thoughts on this after all the amps you've tweaked and played through.

Trust your own ears on this. If any of us were with you and heard you play through it and then could play through it, we might want it tweaked a bit this way or that? But it sounds great over the net.

Hard to rate it from 1 to 10 but I'd say you did it! Definitely in the 7 to 10 range IMO. But at the same time I notice NO difference from a full tube amp, so a 10(?) if that makes sense?  


           Brad                      

[Glennjeff]

Hi Jeff

I'm quite sure that I don't know what a "true tube sound" is, honestly.

I do some tech work for a studio owner so I can tell you a story.

People take recordings from other studios, which are computer and transistor based, to this guy to have them "mastered".

One day I was working in the control room and there was this absolutely amazing guitar sound just floating out of the monitors. Like the best sound I've ever heard. I asked him how he got that. He said - Oh that was recorded with a pedal at some other studio, I'm just mastering their recording for them.
 
What he does is puts the 16 bit 44.1 kHz (digital) sound onto a half inch magnetic tape, then he pumps that through about two dozen tube processors, compressors, limiters, EQ's etc - all in all the signal goes through about fifty valves. The weird bit is the processors are set up so they do virtually nothing. Example - the valve EQ units are set to flat, the compressors are set so they are not compressing except on an occasional peak etc etc.

I was horrified, but, what starts out as a rather dry, brittle digital/transistor sound ends up as valvey as you can get.

Then to make matters even more weird, they go and release it on CD.

[Glennjeff]

I liked Part A sound the best, Part C the second best and Part B was therefore least preferred. That may have something to do with your intonation as a guitarist. As we know from some of my sound clips in the past, every recording is completely different even when done with the same equipment.

A different taste for sound from DL, and he is an amplifier manufacturer, which just goes to show how subjective this sound thingy is.

I honestly could not give you a "out of ten" rating, but they all sound "tubey" to me.

I would not be too concerned about how it will perform into a PA, as every PA sounds different. If you can record it onto a computer and it comes back sounding great, which it does, then you should consider the design a success. It has to sound good without software processing, except for a small amount of EQ and Reverb.

Also difficult to tell if it's a "miked in a room sound" due to the reverb and delay. That may be an unrealistic design goal.

Board supplies from Hoffman Amps has arrived, I need to be getting your OD sound out of my experimental build before committing to the re-build. Could you post current schems in this thread ?



So, which one is done with a SS foot pedal

[Slimtim]

i like the sound of c the best so say 10 on that.9 on b and 8 on a.as far as most tubey tone hell if i know.you could have used a crap ss amp and a guitar made from a 2x4 and i would have believed you if you said it was a les paul on tubes.

[TIMBO]

Hey T, If these snippets are just an amp mic'd and no FX B@7 is the most true tube sound,C@5 and A@3 BUT......

For me the best one @10 is C for having a nice layback sound with a touch of breakup on the decaying notes.
Thanks for the tunes.

[tubenit]

THANKS for the feedback!   That's helpful.

I remixed them so the guitar sits in the mix about the same on each one.  I think they sound even more similar now.   

With respect, Tubenit

[EL34]

I am listening on 5.1 surround sound computer speakers that have a sub woofer

1 - sounds really bright
2 - sounds muffled
3 - sounds the best to me of the 3

[tubenit]

Gentleman,

THANKS so much for the replies!  They are very helpful in my thinking about this project.  I do have a favorite & least favorite also.

Will allow a couple more posts and then explain what is what.

THANK you!

Best regards & respect,  Jeff

[silverfox]

Did anything change during the recording? I ask this due to the fact I'm hearing what sounds like a slight echo on 1.

One sounded like tubes. My recent experience has been to play an emulator through a Mosfet Power Amp and then switch to a 6L6 based power amp. Definitely noticed a difference in tone that was added by the tubes harmonics.

Preferences: 1, 3, 2.

1 sounds a little too bright for me but that could be EQ-ed, sounded more like a hall. 2 was definitely a little muddled like something was lost in the process. 3 was good enough.

[jjasilli]

Ditto to prior posts that part B is the most tube like.  But they all sound really good to me.

Some suggestions:

*  with a mix of SS and tube, try letting the tube amp do most of he work.  I have the reverse set-up for acoustic guitar (no overdrive): SS Behringer mixer into Bogen tube PA amp.  It sounds best with the output of the SS mixer kept low, and the tube PA amp doing the work.  In your case I'd keep the output of tube preamp as high as possible -- too high and you'll swamp the SS input which will overdrive and sound buzzy or worse.  Anyway try letting the transistor amp do as little work as possible.

*  KOC says that a preamp can do any type of overdrive a power amp can do; so a clean boost is all that's really needed from a power amp.  This implies that your set-up should work fine.  But Bill Machrone (Blues Jr. guru) points out that when overdriven, preamp tubes tend to produce harmonic distortion (bent or squiggly signal waves), while power tubes tend to clip.  However preamp tubes can be induced to clip by placing their operating point low and to the right on the Load Line. 

[tubenit]

I have the reverse set-up for acoustic guitar (no overdrive): SS Behringer mixer into Bogen tube PA amp.

I sure wish that there could be a tube power amp with speaker on stage.

However, ......

The guy that has been interested in my attempting this experiment for him will be using it on what is called a "zero volume" stage. (I think that's the term that was used?)  Which means there are NO amps on stage and everything is controlled by a solid state PA system and a mixer board.  Everything goes into the PA system. There isn't even monitors on stage (I don't think?). I think they're using some type of ear monitor instead?

The project actually isn't for me & I won't be the one using it. 

I will post what is what in Parts A, B & C later this afternoon. 

I greatly appreciate the responses!  I'm not wow'd by the project, but still am wondering if it can be made a feasible possibility thru a solid state PA?  Hopefully, I'll get to try it thru the PA system in the next week?

Best regards & thanks,  Jeff

[tubenit]

OK, here is what I did.

Part A =  this was the D'Mars PreAmp using the tube overdrive. I also had a
              digital delay in the effects loop. I thought this was too bright and
              too "brittle" sounding and lacked warmth. Occasionally, I find the
              delay in the loop vs. after the recording gives it sort of a sterile tone.
              So, maybe that was some of the factor??

Part B =  this was actually a piece of a soundclip I posted on Sound Click some
              time ago.  It was the D'Mars ODS amp (complete) with speaker being
              mic'd.  I thought this sounded reasonably good but not great. I
              included this without disclosing it was a true complete tube amp with
              speaker to use as a baseline for comparison.

Part C =  this was the D'Mars PreAmp only with clean only and a Zenith Drive.
              I actually liked this tone the best of the 3 clips.


Interesting most people thought the Part B was most tube like even though some preferred Part C as I did which was just the PreAmp.  I posted this on another forum and had people think they all sounded lame but that Part B sounded the least lame.
 

THANK you all for participating!  I will post later how it sounded in the solid state PA system. IF it's mediocre or really lame, I'll own that it was.

It's been a fun project and the chassis is laid out so I can easily convert it into a combo amp if needed.

With respect, Tubenit

[Willabe]

I just listened to them again and I still say they all sound good. They all, to me anyway, have parts that sound better than other parts in it's own section.

Funny but my wife thought that A was too bright. I hear A as too bright but only for the beginning. B has a part that gets a little muddy in the middle?

I know you like delay and I do too but I think it would be easer to hear the tone without it.     


          Brad     

[DummyLoad]

Pete, 

THANKS!  Got any thoughts on a scale of 1-10 how close Part A and Part C sound to a true tube tone?

Best regards, Jeff

they all sounded like tubes. b sounded like it had the most realistic stage presence to me. IOW, to me, either they sound like tubes or they don't and there is no transition or 1-10 scale.

respectfully,

--pete

[EL34]

Just get your tube preamp line level signal into the PA

It can be EQ'd and adjusted there.

If it sounds way too bright in the earbuds then you can adjust that on the amp or in PA eq

If it is way out of wack one way or the other, the guy running the board/PA should be able to set the amp how he wants it.

[tubenit]

UPDATE:  after talking with the guy about the mediocre results ..............

Guy that I built this for wants it as a complete amp head or combo!   Which I am totally fine with and built it so it could be converted.  And he is enthused about getting it as an amp since he doesn't have a good amp.

PreAmp idea is scrapped!

I am dubbing this a noble effort with mediocre at best results .......................  

Honestly, I had fun with this experiment but there was NO "wow factor" for me other then "wow, it actually makes sound".  

Project is labeled a quasi-failure!

Thanks for the input guys, sorry it didn't work out!

With respect, Tubenit

[silverfox]

I disagree with the assessment as a failure. The line out portion of the project contributed immensely to the knowledge base on the Forum and you asked us which sounds best. I didn't find any of the recordings to sound bad or unusable. My preference is a much heavier tone with occasional clean sounds. If I were looking for this type of sound and amp I would consider your project especially when compared with what else is available on mass produced basis.

The EQ through the PA will likely be the real test. Check back with your client, as I'm sure you will and you may be pleased with his satisfaction.

The line out was a great contribution to your knowledge and the Forum's and that was the original design function as I recall,

If one is master of one thing and understands one thing well, one has at the same time, insight into and understanding of many things. Van Gogh and to add to it- How much more understanding when one masters several.

Thanks again,

Silverfox.

[Willabe]

I agree with Doug and Silverfox.


              Brad     

[tubenit]

You guys are great!  A continued source of encouragement for me!

Genuine thanks to all of you and the forum members for creating an atmosphere where we can experiment, share ideas, share successes and even look for positive learning in the lack of success.

There are forums that are NOT very gracious and respectful. 

Bravo to all of you!  My respect and gratitude, Tubenit

As an FYI,  we may explore the idea of a head or a combo that runs out to an isolation speaker cab.  I found some You Tube stuff about that and am very favorably impressed with that concept.  This would allow a full cranked tube amp while maintaining a "zero volume" stage.   ("zero volume stage" ....... what a weird idea).

[EL34]

There are forums that are NOT very gracious and respectful. 

You got that right
This place is a horse of a different color for sure

[Willabe]

This place is a horse of a different color for sure

 

[TIMBO]

Hey Tubenit, Your projects never have failures there is ALWAYS something that will be gotten from your ideas.
I did not follow this project from the start as it was not something that I would need till you got to the testing stage and this is what I got out of your project......

Your builds are always toneful and slightly edgy this is a good base for a unique sound as in part "B"
Part "C" is the "ONE" I think that most of us are looking for, to take that "B" and make it a "C", well it is for me.

What I am trying to say is that I don't think that we can achieve that "C" with TUBES alone (I could be wrong)
The STC build I am doing has multiple gain stages and I have no idea how unstable it will be but with voltage dividers alone the way to control the gain might clip the wave enough to produce the "C" 

So building a good tube amp base and putting a pedal of choice in front to achieve your desired SOUND is what I got out of your project.Thanks again for your hard work.   

[Ritchie200]

WOOOOAHH there, lets stop that horse for a second...

Did you do those sound clips with your Tele?

Just sayin'....
Yer pal,
Jimbob

[tubenit]

You know how life has those unexpected turns .............................   

Turns out that making an isolation speaker box isn't going to work because of storage space in the closet that would've been used.

So, .................. the guy DOES want to try it thru the PA system. 

I converted it back into a PreAmp ............. HOWEVER, I took the sound off the plate of the second triode in the FX.  I did this because IF this gets converted into a full amp with a line out, that is where I would take it from.

This sound clip is kind of mellow for the first half and then more cranked/intense the second half to show contrast.

http://www.soundclick.com/player/single_player.cfm?songid=12510780&q=hi&newref=1

I am thinking that maybe this sound a little bit better than the original sound clip demo?  I added some compression while recording it prior to the mix.    AND ............ I'm thinking that maybe in the PA with this guys array of pedals etc....... that this may work out for him?

THOUGHTS?   Any improvement here at all?

With respect, Tubenit

[Geezer]

Much better to my ears.

Let him try it into the mixer....I'm betting he loves it

G

[Ritchie200]

Now your talking!  I like the clean.  Although a lot smoother than the previous recordings, I think the overdrive kind-of throttles the tone.  You know I like that more open sounding.

Do I need to bring up the guitar thing again...

Yer extra special pal,
Jim

[DummyLoad]

sounds much, much better. i'd run definitely run with this plan.

--pete

[EL34]

That sounds really clear Jeff
I would go with that

Also, if you do want to get power amp in the mix, there are high end load boxes that can soak the power and produce a high quality line level signal

My Palmer ADGIB-LB is such a device but they are really expensive
http://www.palmergear.com/recording_studio.shtml

[tubenit]

Doug,

Thanks for the comment and thoughts!

Also, if you do want to get power amp in the mix, there are high end load boxes that can soak the power and produce a high quality line level signal

I am going to complete the amp at this point. Holding as an option either the PreAmp idea like in the soundclips or a full amp with power amp included.

I am going to use a 100w/8ohm dummy load resistor and a Hughes and Kettner Red Box cabinet simulator (used).  Together they are costing less than $60  I'll probably use 6K6 power tubes for only 8 watts so I think I should be good with this plan?

Thanks and best regards, Jeff

[super&plexi]

sorry I found this late, I would've liked to be in on the Ground Floor,(shameless plug)...I tried to access the soundclick  clips, but guessing you removed them.

seems funny, or did I miss it, but I saw no mention of amp sims, ''pods'',  or simple tube 'drive boxes' like my Seymore Duncan tube  'classic' pre-amp (definitely not a plug),   until the end....with the mention of the ''redbox'', (not a personal favorite).

  I was guessing project had low cost guidelines, but all that equip. I mentioned was just a little higher price used than the redbox. possibly equal $wise. I have had occasion to record/play/hang out in all kinds of studios, small,....on up,    and while I'm probably no different than anybody here, in that if asked, ''hey Hoffman forum member, I heard you were going in to the studio to record,....what gear are you taking,...any amps?, most all members, including me would answer back with some favorite tube amp of theirs. If not 3, 5, or 10 of 'em.

 I'll go 1 further, by stating that I've got nothing against S.S. either, and actually like a few. whatever sounds good!

 That was until many factors-cartage of, $ ,...Ah crap, I'm going on again. What I was trying to get at is there are a lot of good sounding devices to get into a board with (w/o that dry sterile sound,... although it can sound great for funk) , and I'm wondering if you're hip to 'em, or not. or maybe that's no fun, and you were just coming up w/yer own!. just wish I didn't miss sound clips. take care...and I'll try to be more on the ball,..or stick...or Click!.   

  NUTSHELL-lots of new gadgets out that sound good w/D.I. Mixer---often times load in, or special circqs preclude a normal amp setup--you're probably hip to 'em, ...But maybe somebody else will be on to thread even later than me, and not know. ...

why can't I nutshell right from beginning!