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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Question About Parasitic Oscillation-Resolved, Thank You  (Read 27353 times)

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Offline ajeffcote

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Question About Parasitic Oscillation-Resolved, Thank You
« on: October 16, 2013, 06:46:49 am »
I have experienced oscillation problems with bad tubes and OT wires being reversed. These were very apparent. No doubt.
But what about a high pitched ringing with the treble notes when playing clean? Not a chime in a pleasing way, but rather an annoying and fatiguing sound. I can turn the treble down and it goes away. Or lower the guitar's volume pot and it goes away. Sounds like a bad tube that rings when you tap it. Only I have swapped out all the tubes with known good ones.
Could this be a parasitic oscillation? No other symptoms. Voltages all in line.
As a fix I'm thinking maybe a small value cap to ground from the grid of the output tubes. I don't want to loose too much treble, which is what happens when I try to trim it with the tone or volume controls. Maybe a 47pf cap?
« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 07:58:25 am by ajeffcote »

Offline tubenit

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Re: Question About Parasitic Oscillation
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2013, 08:24:22 am »
It would have been helpful to know what type of amp and power tubes it had?

Things that may or may not be helpful would be:

trying different tubes (which would be my starting place & maybe you have tried all new tubes already and not just a few of the tubes?)

larger grid resistors into the power tubes (anywhere from 8.2k to 100k)

trying the "enhance cap" on the LTPI entrace plate resistor (do a search on this)

trying smoothing caps on preamp tubes

trying a snubbing cap across LTPI plate to plate (I don't like these and hear this as a tone killer but it may work to eliminate oscillation)

trying lower gain preamp tubes or a 12AT7 in the LTPI if you're using a 12AX7

adding a PPIMV so the power tubes are not hit so hard with a signal

those silicone rings that go over tubes and/or a silcone ring between the tube socket and chassis

Let us know what resolves it, please.

With respect, Tubenit



Offline ajeffcote

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Re: Question About Parasitic Oscillation
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2013, 12:08:43 pm »
OK, the amp is an is an Allen Accomplice kit amp, running 6V6s or 6L6s.
I've tried all new tubes so I think I can rule that out. I am running a 12AT7 for the PI, and a 5751 for V1.  
Has a PPIMV using 4 caps.
All of the grid wires are as short as I can get them.
The amp is extremely quiet at idle and sounds great in every other way. Just this high pitch ringing, which I forgot to mention before, only lasts a split second or so. When I strike a note on the B or high E string. Also tried several guitars with all the same result. Single coils and humbuckers.
And yes I will report back when I get it figured out. I know I haven't done so with the last help request, but I haven't gotten to open that amp (Deluxe Reverb) up yet.
I'll start with larger grid resistors, 10Ks since I have them on hand.
Again thank you for your help. I assure you that if I ever learn enough to be helpful I will return the favors.  :smiley:

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Re: Question About Parasitic Oscillation
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2013, 01:39:33 pm »
Picture of inside the amp may be usefull.

Offline ajeffcote

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Re: Question About Parasitic Oscillation
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2013, 07:38:51 am »
Thanks for the leads, TBN. Lots of god reading.  Didn't know what to search for. I may start with the enhance cap idea first. When I do I'll get a fresh pic of the chassis.

Offline tubenit

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Re: Question About Parasitic Oscillation
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2013, 08:46:08 am »
Enhance cap thread.  I use these on ALL my amps.

http://www.el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=12723.0

I'd suggest trying something between 120p to 250p as a starting place to see if that helps. If you have a 180p or 220p try one of those maybe.

My experience is that is does NOT eliminate the high frequencies (to my hearing) but that the high frequencies seem much smoother.  My opinion is that sometimes the high end "hash" or harshness may be due to osciallation issues.

With respect, Tubenit

Offline ajeffcote

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Re: Question About Parasitic Oscillation
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2013, 12:43:57 pm »
Here are the pics I promised.

Had 1.5K grid resistors and I changed them to 10K. I really couldn't hear a difference. Maybe I need to go larger still. I then put a 250pf cap across the PI entrance resistor, per TBN's instructions. And I have to agree that it does sound smoother, especially after a big chord when the amp is overdriven. The distortion is less fizzy as it trails off. But I still have the ringing aspect of the sound, maybe less pronounced. Maybe I just need to shave some high end off, but only the extreme audible highs. I have a 390pf cap in the tone stack, which is blackface style, in place of the normal 250pf. If I use a larger cap there will that help shave those highs or just let more mid-range through?
And here is a shot of the TEC! I used a poly-styrene cap.

Offline tubenit

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Re: Question About Parasitic Oscillation
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2013, 12:58:47 pm »
You have reverb? Correct?

IF you remove the reverb tube .......... does it still do that?  IF not, then it could be your reverb tank?  OR maybe you need a dwell pot for the reverb?  I typically use 1M dwell pots set at around "7".

OR maybe use a .001 going into the reverb send triodes instead of 500p?

OR maybe add a 250p-500p cap with the 220k grid resistor to ground on the recovery triode of the reverb.   I personally find the 220k without a cap to ground with it to be ice picky trebly for my tastes.

I think you're going to get this figured out at some point.  :thumbsup:

With respect, Tubenit

Offline jojokeo

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Re: Question About Parasitic Oscillation
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2013, 01:22:45 pm »
Very nice looking work. Something that came to mind is a phenomenon known as transformer ringing. It can be found/heard in various forms for various reasons. There is an article written about this by Dave Zimmerman of Maven Peal Amps published in Guitar Player sometime in 2011 and his version of a type of snubber circuit that is used to counteract this as well as add a measure of reliability especially when using speaker loads and/or attenuators.

I found the article below and posted the idea behind it. It is not a conjuntive filter nor a Zoebel network and can offer us a third thing to try in getting "our sound". "I've seen it posted here that CF's are a crutch or a band-aid for an otherwise inferior build. I disagree. When you consider the sometimes extreme circumstances we put guitar amps through anything you can do to make them behave is Ok by me. Plus it comes down to the question' How does it sound?'. I'm not going deny a design option just because it was a crutch for cheap transformers in old table radios. Some of the coolest circuits for tube gear came from the golden age when whacky dudes in white coats with bushy eyebrows considered this technology important. When I see some of the innovations from that era I can't help but think that these same designers could just as easily been "gurus" and heroes today."

Since it came out in a magazine and is still readily available to be seen, and people can be directed to GP Mag I don't see an issue in doing this? In using or adding/removing anything to a circuit, it will likely change said circuit in some way or another whether it's completely "transparent" or not is up to the user's perception & judgement.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 05:59:16 pm by jojokeo »
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Offline ajeffcote

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Re: Question About Parasitic Oscillation
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2013, 05:11:35 pm »
Transformer ringing? May be the problem, and I will definitely check this out.
I can't get back to the amp for a couple of days. I have time for research, that's for sure. Thanks

Offline jojokeo

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Re: Question About Parasitic Oscillation
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2013, 05:40:58 pm »
"AS WE ALL KNOW, THERE IS NO substitute for turning a guitar amp up loud. To nail that sweet, organic, classic rock or blues tone, an amp needs to get loud enough to push its power tubes into distortion (a.k.a clipping or saturation). The problem is that when the tubes begin to distort, everything in the power amp begins to distort, including the phase inverter and the output transformer (OPT).
 
OPT saturation—which is similar to tube clipping because the transformer is being asked to pass a signal larger it can handle—is desirable not only because it introduces distortion, but also because it provides a sort of shock absorbing effect on the phase inverter clipping and power tube distortion. (A significant amount of a rig’s shock absorption also comes from the speakers, but the OPT’s shock-absorbing contribution can’t be overlooked.) A good output transformer goes into saturation at the same time—or just a little before— the phase inverter and power tubes begin distorting. This timing allows the OPT to round off any potentially harsh distortion that can sometimes originate from the phase inverter and/or power tubes.
 
Lower quality output transformers can ring like bells, regardless of whether or not the output tubes driving them are being pushed into distortion. Output transformer ringing often sounds like unwanted fizz on the notes—especially bass notes. But the real problem with a ringing output transformer is the extremely high voltages involved when ringing occurs. Ringing adds voltage to the circuit—just about doubling the high voltages already being carried through the transformer. If the transformer windings (insulated wire) are low quality, they won’t be able to handle this additional voltage overload and can short-circuit, causing sparks, flames, and nasty noises.

And even with a high-quality output transformer, dumping all the wattage produced by the power amp into an attenuator (instead of the speakers) can also cause sparks, flames, and nasty noises. This is because speakers offer a significant degree of shock absorption, while attenuators provide none
 If you cut the amount of power the amp can produce—either by removing two of the power tubes or via a wattage control— the OPT can’t go into saturation. OPTs are designed to handle the highest power (or wattage) available from the amp, and by lowering the wattage, you are reducing the shock absorbing effect provided by a saturated OPT. The end result is often a similar unpleasant ringing or fizz.
 
Manufacturers have been aware of these problems with output transformer saturation for decades. When CBS took over Fender, their engineers created the “silverface” series amps, which were essentially blackface models with additional diodes to protect the OPT and eliminate ringing. Unfortunately, diodes are designed to create a brick wall (i.e., current flows only one direction through a diode), and they work perfectly when you want that. But the last place a guitarist needs a brick wall is in the power amp. If you own any Fender silverface amps with diodes around the OPT (not all models have them), removing these additional diodes will put your power amp back to blackface specs.

Manufacturers could also have considered adding a “shock absorber” to the entire power amp, which would create a squishing effect when the speaker and/or output transformer saturation fail to do the job. An ideal shock absorber would have no effect on the normal frequencies passing through the power amp, and would remove only unwanted high frequencies. In other words, the shock absorber would be sonically transparent, stop all ringing, and eliminate the possibility of brick-wall blowouts.
Enter the Snubber
 
The solution was published during the 1930s in the Radiotron Designer’s Handbook, and it’s called a “Snubber.” The idea behind it is to create a filter at the primary side of the output transformer that removes unwanted high frequencies while leaving the rest of the frequencies untouched. A relatively simple circuit, the Snubber connects between the two plate/anode connections on the primary side of the output transformer. Because only plate connections are required, soldering the Snubber directly to the power tube sockets at the same two locations where the output transformer wires connect to the sockets is an excellent solution. The great thing is that a Snubber requires only six parts: Two high-power resistors, two high-voltage capacitors, and two lower power resistors.
 
I have never seen a Snubber fail, or cause a failure in other areas of the amplifier, regardless of how badly the amp is abused. Once your Snubber is installed correctly, you will never need to think about it again—except when admiring your amp’s great tone!"

See more at: http://www.guitarplayer.com/article/smooth-your-sonic-ride/5505#sthash.xlccXKSG.dpuf
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Offline ajeffcote

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Re: Question About Parasitic Oscillation
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2013, 04:57:24 am »
JJ, thanks for the info/link. I will try that as a later/last resort. Is my amp experiencing OPT ringing? Maybe, but it is happening before saturation occurs, as when playing clean. When the amp is distorting, I don't hear the ringing.
But after dis-assembly and re-assembly yesterday, I now have a cabinet buzz on top of the ringing! I will have to make time to fix this today, or at least play another amp.
TBN, the problem is still around even when the reverb tank is dis-connected, and when the send tube is pulled. Dwell pot? There is a "tone" pot for the reverb. Maybe this is a dwell, as I don't hear attenuation of treble when dialing it up, but I do hear a "relaxing" of the reverb trail off, if that is understandable.
I do think I'll add a cap to the 220K resistor to ground from the recovery. This may not fix the ringing but I like the idea of loosing some highs at this point.
I'll rig a speaker for my workbench so I can try these changes as I go along, more easily. And you are right, I will fix this! :guitar1

Offline PRR

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Re: Question About Parasitic Oscillation
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2013, 01:09:18 pm »
> high pitched ringing with the treble notes when playing clean?

Tried different speaker?

I had an amp with "crickets" in it. Turned out to be a wrinkle in the speaker surround.

Offline jojokeo

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Re: Question About Parasitic Oscillation
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2013, 01:45:02 pm »
> high pitched ringing with the treble notes when playing clean?

Tried different speaker?

I had an amp with "crickets" in it. Turned out to be a wrinkle in the speaker surround.
Yes, you can hear it in the high end playing cleanly and in fact sounds like the delayed ringing or effect after a bell is chimed or rung. Like the trailing off of a delay pedal after a note is struck.

I just had an engine repair that had "squirrels" in it. Turned out to be a motor sensor.

This after the mechanic thought it was the pulley tensioner...then the alternator, etc. They got replaced one by one but yet the noise persisted. This sensor unit installs into the engine in the same way an older distributor does - a small shaft with gears on it. Turns out that the sound that had emitted transferred throughout the engine (& parts) making troubleshooting very difficult even though he used his stethoscope and even a piece of tubing to try to hear various areas or where it was coming from.

In the end eliminate all possible known factors and if nothing seems to work then be adventurous and creative.
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Offline LHPcope

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Re: Question About Parasitic Oscillation
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2013, 08:51:12 am »
Does this amp have feedback coming off the OT secondary going back to before the PI?

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Question About Parasitic Oscillation
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2013, 10:45:34 am »
Does this amp have feedback coming off the OT secondary going back to before the PI?

Yes: 2nd & 3d pics have a black wire from speaker jack to the board.

Offline ajeffcote

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Re: Question About Parasitic Oscillation
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2013, 11:26:39 am »
I have tried increasing the NFB and I didn't like the result. Assuming that was the recommendation, maybe I shouldn't assume. :dontknow:
« Last Edit: October 19, 2013, 11:50:36 am by ajeffcote »

Offline LHPcope

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Re: Question About Parasitic Oscillation
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2013, 12:06:55 pm »
Quote
I have tried increasing the NFB and I didn't like the result.


OK, but did it take care of the ringing?  If it did what was the value(s) of the components originally and what were they when the ringing went away? 
Since you stated that the ringing goes away if the guitar volume is rolled back that does sound like the frequency response of the amp has a peak in the upper region. 

If increasing the negative feedback cures it then that suggests the portion of the circuitry producing the frequency response peak is between the NFB injection point and the secondary of the OT.  If increasing NFB didn't cure the ringing then that suggests the offending circuitry is between the amp input and the NFB injection point.  If increasing NFB made it worse then that suggests that the phase response of the NFB loop is moving from -180o to 0o in the usable portion of the frequency response (which is not likely.)

Offline ajeffcote

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Re: Question About Parasitic Oscillation
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2013, 01:48:20 pm »
Quote
I have tried increasing the NFB and I didn't like the result.


OK, but did it take care of the ringing?  If it did what was the value(s) of the components originally and what were they when the ringing went away? 
Since you stated that the ringing goes away if the guitar volume is rolled back that does sound like the frequency response of the amp has a peak in the upper region. 

If increasing the negative feedback cures it then that suggests the portion of the circuitry producing the frequency response peak is between the NFB injection point and the secondary of the OT.  If increasing NFB didn't cure the ringing then that suggests the offending circuitry is between the amp input and the NFB injection point.  If increasing NFB made it worse then that suggests that the phase response of the NFB loop is moving from -180o to 0o in the usable portion of the frequency response (which is not likely.)


Ah!! I see what you mean. Truthfully, it's been so long since I messed with the NFB circuit that I don't remember. I will experiment a bit now. Thank you for that, as I wasn't seeing/thinking of the troubleshooting aspect. I have been guilty of just asking for directions in the past without trying to reason my way through the issue at hand. Now that I am at least semi-retired I have more time on my hands and I have looked into some electronics classes at the local community college, but so far everything is geared for "digitalia". Nothing wrong with computer repair but that's not where my interest is.

Offline sluckey

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Re: Question About Parasitic Oscillation
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2013, 01:59:49 pm »
Is this a new build? Has the ringing been present from day one?

If so, disconnect the NFB loop (black wire between the speaker jacks and the board). Does the ringing go away?
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline ajeffcote

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Re: Question About Parasitic Oscillation
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2013, 02:28:09 pm »
Is this a new build? Has the ringing been present from day one?

If so, disconnect the NFB loop (black wire between the speaker jacks and the board). Does the ringing go away?

Not a new build. Ringing since day one, maybe. I have tinnitus. I hear ringing everywhere. But it (the tinnitus) has subsided a bit, so this may have been a problem all along that I am just now hearing.
I'll try it, maybe tonight. Can't get back to it yet. It's funny but now that I don't work anymore, I don't work any less! :icon_biggrin:
« Last Edit: October 19, 2013, 02:32:29 pm by ajeffcote »

Offline ajeffcote

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Re: Question About Parasitic Oscillation
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2013, 02:37:13 pm »
> high pitched ringing with the treble notes when playing clean?

Tried different speaker?

I had an amp with "crickets" in it. Turned out to be a wrinkle in the speaker surround.

To answer, yes I have tried a different speaker and the problem persists. Thank you.

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Re: Question About Parasitic Oscillation
« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2013, 10:10:33 pm »
Today I tried a few of your suggestions, and I'm about ready to pull out the little hair I have left. I tried reducing the treble with a cap across the grid resistor to ground on the recovery triode of the reverb. Didn't stop the ringing, I removed the cap. Tried a .002 instead of the .001 stock value cap that feeds the PI, didn't stop the ringing and I put it back to stock. Dis-connected the NFB, didn't stop the ringing. Tried a 470 Ohm in place of the stock 820 Ohm NFB resistor, and the amp started an LFO. Played a bit over that and the sound was distorted pretty badly. Still ringing. Put the 820 Ohm resistor back in. Increased the grid resistor on the octals again, now at 22K.  Still ringing!, :BangHead:
Now, I have always heard a little reverberation from the amp that I didn't like. Hard to describe, but it just didn't sound right. Not a cabinet rattle sound. But always present and vague.
Last night I played through the cabinet with the speaker mounted (1-12 combo) and the chassis on a cradle. When I played a big bass note I could hear a rattle, and I thought it was a cabinet rattle. OK, I've heard this before but I always shrugged it off as a cabinet rattle that I would get to someday. Decided today was the day and I played through the cabinet instead of my bench speaker. Trying to find the rattle, I removed the baffle, speaker attached and tried that. No good. I removed the speaker and played like that, and the speaker was rattling. So I robbed another amp for an almost new Weber 12F150, mounted it on the baffle and into the cab. Plugged it in and it was rattling on the bass notes just like before. I even took the baffle out and tried it that way, still rattling. Now the chassis is on a cradle, not in the amp. No major vibrations. Re-assembled the cab with the speaker and plugged it into my Deluxe Reverb. Sounded great, not rattling. What's going on? Plugged the Allen chassis into the Deluxe Reverb's internal speaker jack, and the rattle is present.
Can the OT cause something like this? Looks like the ringing may be an OT problem, but how could the OT cause the rattle? I mean, is it possible for the rattle to originate in the OT?
In the morning I'll take V readings and post the results. Oh, all the problems persist with or without the reverb.

Offline jojokeo

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Re: Question About Parasitic Oscillation
« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2013, 10:53:45 pm »
Even though it seemed to take a while  :w2: you finally did what I was hoping (and could've saved time, energy, & work) by simply feeding the problematic chassis' output into another amp's speaker/enclosure that's known "good". So you can say affirmatively say that your issue has validated itself to be a parasitic oscillation (or transformer ringing is still in play as a possibility). BTW, that does involve your OT if you read the above info? Also, I didn't see that you tried tubenit's enhance cap where you put it across the input side's load resistor of the pi did you???

*Even though the photos are pretty good you added - if you could get two pictures of the complete chassis from the front and back (and not have it be upside down) it would be a lot easier to look at. It's not easy to follow everything all the way from pic to pic. Lead dress, grounding paths, etc. need a looking at.
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Re: Question About Parasitic Oscillation
« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2013, 08:42:59 am »
I know it's taking a while, but I have a lot of thing s going on around here and my time gets doled out accordingly. I did use TBNs enhance mod. Didn't solve the problem but I could hear a difference and I'll leave that in. I guess I missed telling it but I did try a different enclosure earlier in this endeavor to see if the ringing went away, which it didn't. Then the rattle manifested/worsened so I started trying to eliminate that.
More pics will have to wait. My camera has been loaned out and I hope to get it back in one piece in a couple of weeks. The grounding scheme is very similar to Dougs suggested method. I ran a buss along the back of the pots, the jacks to the chassis by the input. The pre-amp and PI supply grounds are attached to that, as well as all the pre-amp grounds. The screen supply, main filter, PT center tap, heaters, bias supply all grounded to a PT bolt. A/C to a PT bolt. Output tube cathodes are chassis grounded at the bias test jacks. Lead dress? The amp has been pretty quiet so I guess it's not too bad.


Now, I can safely say that I learned something this morning. I must never attempt to work on an amp before coffee. I bypassed the master volume just to try something different. Then I warmed the amp up and flipped the standby on and started checking voltages. I plugged in my guitar and strummed it, no sound. I had not plugged in the speaker. :embarrassed:
Now I am getting some sound but it is very distorted. Since I am getting some sound then maybe the OT is not toast? Or maybe it was the problem all along and now it's going to get replaced. I have an OT from a DRRI I can sub in, but I'll be looking for an easy way to test the secondary windings of the Allen OT.

Offline LHPcope

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Re: Question About Parasitic Oscillation
« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2013, 08:44:33 am »
Did you try running the NFB 820 ohm resistor up to something higher, say 1.5K to 2K?  

And is that resistor network on the other side of the NFB resistor between the cathode, grids, and ground of the PI the correct value(s)?  While your at it look at the values of the two PI grid coupling caps.  
Measure all of these components, don't just trust what they are marked as being.  

Oh, does it matter whether 6V6s or 6L6s are in the amp?


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Re: Question About Parasitic Oscillation
« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2013, 09:02:43 am »
Did you try running the NFB 820 ohm resistor up to something higher, say 1.5K to 2K?  

And is that resistor network on the other side of the NFB resistor between the cathode, grids, and ground of the PI the correct value(s)?  While your at it look at the values of the two PI grid coupling caps.  
Measure all of these components, don't just trust what they are marked as being.  

Oh, does it matter whether 6V6s or 6L6s are in the amp?



Haven't tried raising the value of the NFB resistor. Lowering the resistor + more NFB, correct? I will try raising it.
I measured all the values, they all check out. Cap values are right. And the amp will run 6V6s or 6L6s.
Maybe the OT is all-right, there is a shorting jack for the main speaker and it is still making sound. Just not good sound.
I have a little time to kill so I'll get back to it.

Offline jojokeo

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Re: Question About Parasitic Oscillation
« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2013, 10:01:17 am »
Grounding the way you have can present some ground loops. The amp can run pretty quietly in either case but if there are ground loops it can help with parasitic oscillation - which is what I believe you are experiencing in the form of fizz or rattling on the note or notes. It can take on a sound exactly like a cab rattle too. Oscillation can occur in a wide spectrum or be very frequency dependent. Your power tube's ground should run back to the tranny bolt grounds. Lead dress is how the wires are laid out and ran as they sit near or cross others which can also cause parasitics. Your amp looks pretty good but it only takes a couple wires to cause something some times.
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Offline ajeffcote

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Re: Question About Parasitic Oscillation
« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2013, 01:23:58 pm »
The power tube cathodes are grounded there because that's the way David Allen said to do it, and he's an electrical engineer and designed the amp, so...........
I will try running the ground back to the PT bolt. By the way my Deluxe Reverb (not a real one but a converted DRRI) is grounded the same way, on the chassis, but close to the PT, and it sounds fantastic. Don't get me wrong, I am not knocking your advice, I am absorbing it and will heed. :icon_biggrin:

Now, on another note I tried a 1.5K NFB resistor and a lot of the problem(s) stopped, but the amp was too bright. So I popped in a new 820 Ohm and the distortion, and rattle were back. Just for grins I pulled the enhancement cap out and the amp cleared up. Only it sounds better than it did before I started this exercise. Apparently the TEC doesn't work with this amps set-up. It DID sound better when I first put it in. I am at a loss as to what happened, but I am going to leave well enough alone, at least for now. It  sounds as good as it ever has. May have been that I over-heated the poly-styrene cap at some point and turned it into a jumper? I'll try a silver mica, I know they will take more heat.
I will figure out what happened but not today. I'm done working on it for now. I will live with the ringing for a while more. I bought an alnico Tone Tubby that I hope will work for said ringing without killing the articulation.
Thank you all for your help. It was not wasted, I have learned from this.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2013, 04:50:01 pm by ajeffcote »

Offline darkbluemurder

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Re: Question About Parasitic Oscillation
« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2013, 05:14:44 am »
Here are the pics I promised.

Had 1.5K grid resistors and I changed them to 10K. I really couldn't hear a difference. Maybe I need to go larger still. I then put a 250pf cap across the PI entrance resistor, per TBN's instructions. And I have to agree that it does sound smoother, especially after a big chord when the amp is overdriven. The distortion is less fizzy as it trails off. But I still have the ringing aspect of the sound, maybe less pronounced. Maybe I just need to shave some high end off, but only the extreme audible highs. I have a 390pf cap in the tone stack, which is blackface style, in place of the normal 250pf. If I use a larger cap there will that help shave those highs or just let more mid-range through?
And here is a shot of the TEC! I used a poly-styrene cap.


That dual pot on the far right - is that a PPIMV? If so, try to move the twisted blue wires as far away from the other controls (especially the tone controls) as possible.

Good luck,
Stephan

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Re: Question About Parasitic Oscillation
« Reply #30 on: October 23, 2013, 05:16:47 am »
And btw I am not familiar with this amp. Does it have a cathodyne PI? I would pull the twisted yellow/white wire pair as far away from the tone controls as possible, too.

Good luck,
Stephan

Offline LHPcope

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Re: Question About Parasitic Oscillation
« Reply #31 on: October 23, 2013, 09:47:27 am »
Quote
Lowering the resistor + more NFB, correct?
Yes; what you have is a voltage divider network formed by the 820 and the 47 ohm resistors.  You can think of it as a pot turned most of the way down. 
Quote
And the amp will run 6V6s or 6L6s.
What I meant to ask was is the ringing the same with either 6V6s or 6L6s in the amp, sorry about that.

Offline ajeffcote

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Re: Question About Parasitic Oscillation
« Reply #32 on: October 23, 2013, 10:03:00 pm »
Darkblue, that is a PPIMV and I will try your suggestion. Thanks

And it's fixed bias, LTPI. Based on a Deluxe Reverb, with 1 channel, no trem, the PPIMV and a "raw control" that removes the tone stack from the picture, and a 2 pot reverb. The yellow and white wires are for the reverb controls.

LHPcope, it's been a while since I played 6L6s in it, but I'll try that tomorrow.

« Last Edit: October 23, 2013, 10:12:59 pm by ajeffcote »

Offline jojokeo

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Re: Question About Parasitic Oscillation
« Reply #33 on: October 23, 2013, 10:13:00 pm »
What is the orange wire going out of the PT connected to the tranny ground bolt?
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Offline Willabe

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Re: Question About Parasitic Oscillation
« Reply #34 on: October 23, 2013, 10:34:16 pm »
What is the orange wire going out of the PT connected to the tranny ground bolt?

Internal shield?


             Brad      :icon_biggrin:

Offline ajeffcote

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Re: Question About Parasitic Oscillation
« Reply #35 on: October 23, 2013, 10:36:31 pm »
The orange wire is a ground for internal hum shields. I think it's Allen's design, it's a very quiet tranny.
 
I keep thinking about the possibility that the ringing is coming from the OT. I have to order the resistors to make the snubber circuit. I just don't like paying shipping charges for such a small order. Probably will wait until I need something else.

BUT in the meantime I have a that DRRI OT sitting in my closet so maybe I'll try that if the lead dress suggestions don't work. I have chopsticked all the leads trying to find problem areas but the wires in question may be too short to move far enough from the tone controls. If I wrap a grounded wire around the pairs in question, would that not ground any stray signals? I've seen that in old Fender amps before but I never have tried it.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2013, 10:49:37 pm by ajeffcote »

Offline jojokeo

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Re: Question About Parasitic Oscillation
« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2013, 10:47:46 pm »
Okay thanks. This is not related to your issue but check the connection in the pic, from my angle doesn't look too good?
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Offline ajeffcote

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Re: Question About Parasitic Oscillation
« Reply #37 on: October 23, 2013, 10:55:28 pm »
You mean the soldering? I may have snapped that before I soldered it in place, but it was well connected when I was done. I don't know how much heat you can put on a poly-styrene cap like that and that joint was heated several times while I removed and replaced the .01 caps. While jumping the MV. I may have fried it. That's something else I will try tomorrow, another shot for the TEC.

Offline printer2

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Re: Question About Parasitic Oscillation
« Reply #38 on: October 24, 2013, 06:45:46 pm »
Maybe a loose lamination?

Offline The_Gaz

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Re: Question About Parasitic Oscillation
« Reply #39 on: October 24, 2013, 09:11:15 pm »
Sorry if I missed it, but did you try disconnecting the reverb tank and/or reverb tube as Tubenit suggested?

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Re: Question About Parasitic Oscillation
« Reply #40 on: October 26, 2013, 02:04:53 pm »
Yes, still rings without the verb. I've reverted to all stock spec components and lost some more idle noise with lead dress. It's so quiet at idle you can barely hear it with the volume all the way up. It's better but there's still something going on I haven't  found yet.

Offline ajeffcote

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Re: Question About Parasitic Oscillation
« Reply #41 on: October 28, 2013, 06:51:08 am »
I want to thank all of you for your helping me to resolve this issue with my amp. I rerouted the reverb control wiring, the master volume wires, the power tube cathode grounds and the buss wire termination. This all helped with noise floor levels.

By chance I strummed a chord with the volume all the way off and I could hear it through the speaker. I replaced the volume pot. Then I removed the bright cap. And I rewired these circled connections. I'm not sure what was going on, but the ringing stopped. The cap tested good.
So, although I don't know the exact cause, I did learn from all this. If nothing else to always start looking for the simple solutions first.
Any ideas to what the exact reason of the ringing was?
Here's a pic showing what I did at the input jack. The buss is not attached to the vol pot or the jack.
Whatever the reason, it worked.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 06:57:21 am by ajeffcote »

Offline jojokeo

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Re: Question About Parasitic Oscillation
« Reply #42 on: October 28, 2013, 10:22:08 am »
As said earlier, another case proof positive that better grounding and wiring routes (better lead dress) practice ends up helping and making a difference. Now you see for yourself how important these things can be. Congrats on your build!!!

Grounding the way you have can present some ground loops. The amp can run pretty quietly in either case but if there are ground loops it can help with parasitic oscillation - which is what I believe you are experiencing in the form of fizz or rattling on the note or notes. It can take on a sound exactly like a cab rattle too. Oscillation can occur in a wide spectrum or be very frequency dependent. Your power tube's ground should run back to the tranny bolt grounds. Lead dress is how the wires are laid out and ran as they sit near or cross others which can also cause parasitics. Your amp looks pretty good but it only takes a couple wires to cause something some times.
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is research.

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Question About Parasitic Oscillation-Resolved, Thank You
« Reply #43 on: October 28, 2013, 05:45:18 pm »
What was that odd metal circle between the input jack and the black ground wire in your first version of the wiring? I wonder if there was lack of a good solder connection there.

Here's a pic showing what I did at the input jack. The buss is not attached to the vol pot or the jack.
Whatever the reason, it worked.

Your new pot has a ground wire to the ground buss, and the buss is directly grounded at the chassis near the input jack. The input jack finds its own chassis ground by virtue of the contact between the chassis and the jack's threaded metal sleeve (which is contacting your guitar cable shield/ground).

Originally, you had 3 ground connections there at the input jack area: one at the jack itself, one at the black wire bolted to the chassis, and one at the ground buss itself (I'm assuming here that the filter cap ground at the buss' opposite end is connected to the other filter cap grounds, which then have a wire bolted to the PT bolt).

Perhaps there was simply a bad solder joint in all that which you removed. I don't think the redundant grounds would have caused the noise you mentioned, but who knows?

Offline ajeffcote

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Re: Question About Parasitic Oscillation-Resolved, Thank You
« Reply #44 on: October 28, 2013, 09:17:13 pm »
What was that odd metal circle between the input jack and the black ground wire in your first version of the wiring? I wonder if there was lack of a good solder connection there.
That was just a loop in the ground wire/buss to make it easier to attach whatever I thought I might need to attach at that point. Of course I didn't need it and didn't use it.
 
Here's a pic showing what I did at the input jack. The buss is not attached to the vol pot or the jack.
Whatever the reason, it worked.

Your new pot has a ground wire to the ground buss, and the buss is directly grounded at the chassis near the input jack. The input jack finds its own chassis ground by virtue of the contact between the chassis and the jack's threaded metal sleeve (which is contacting your guitar cable shield/ground).

Originally, you had 3 ground connections there at the input jack area: one at the jack itself, one at the black wire bolted to the chassis, and one at the ground buss itself (I'm assuming here that the filter cap ground at the buss' opposite end is connected to the other filter cap grounds, which then have a wire bolted to the PT bolt).

Perhaps there was simply a bad solder joint in all that which you removed. I don't think the redundant grounds would have caused the noise you mentioned, but who knows?

The other end of the buss terminated at the last pot in the line, the MV. The only filters grounded to the buss were the PI and the pre-amp. The screen and main filters were grounded to the PT mounting bolt. The buss was originally terminated at the jack, and the black wire was used to attach the buss and the jack to the chassis bolt, as an afterthought. The old volume pot had the buss soldered to it's back, but the new pot won't take the solder. I sanded it first and the solder still just balled up. Of course it is grounded anyway.
OK, the way it is now works great! But would it work even better if I were to insulate the pots(the ones with the buss) and the jack, so all ground paths on that end of the amp are funneled to the same point? Does it not become a star ground at that point? Or are separate ground wires for each circuit or sub-circuit required for a true star ground?

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Question About Parasitic Oscillation-Resolved, Thank You
« Reply #45 on: October 28, 2013, 09:44:41 pm »
... OK, the way it is now works great! But would it work even better if ...

I suggest leaving well-enough alone.

I see your logic now behind the original wiring, so there must have simply been a dodgy solder joint or maybe the pot/cap.

I suggest the only reason to isolate the pots and jacks from the chassis is if you want to incorporate a safe ground-lift, wherein the entire circuit ground is separate from the chassis unless you throw the ground lift switch to connect it to the chassis. That would be the "ground" position, and "lift" would have a series cap and resistor connect the circuit ground to chassis (to make the connection at RF). Of course, the power cord green wire stays bolted to the chassis to provide a means of tripping the outlet circuit breaker if B+ gets shorted to the chassis.

Problem with all that and your amp: you really need to plan for that wiring scheme from the get-go, and adjust the entire layout around it. And all parts like pots/jacks have to be isolated from the chassis, while remaining aware of how sometimes they're completing circuits to ground you didn't think about (like the speaker jacks completing the connection to ground for the OT secondary and also the negative feedback circuit in use).

If you're concerned the amp isn't silent enough, little steps with tinkering the grounding probably won't be any help. Ground loops generally have noticeable noise effects, and you could easily get a tube with heater-to-cathode leakage that'll inject more hum than any likely ground loop. It's a game of diminishing returns, and a well-executed random-ground amp will probably outperform a poorly-executed star-ground amp (meaning one that wasn't planned to be star-ground from the beginning).

My opinion is if the amp is acceptable now, enjoy it.

Offline terminalgs

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Re: Question About Parasitic Oscillation
« Reply #46 on: October 28, 2013, 10:44:57 pm »
By chance I strummed a chord with the volume all the way off and I could hear it through the speaker. I replaced the volume pot. Then I removed the bright cap. And I rewired these circled connections. I'm not sure what was going on, but the ringing stopped. The cap tested good.

Regarding causes of this issue, where by you clearly hear the signal thru the speaker,  but volume knobs are turned off:  I've tracked similar problems down to B+ filtering issues in the pre-amp stages.  Part of the power supply's duty is to isolate the signal from preamp stages from one to another.  signal voltage should see the B+ side of plate resistors as virtual grounds.  If you lift an electrolytic cap in the preamp (via a bad ground on the lytic itself, or whatever manner), the signal will "live" on that part of the circuit, and bleed into other parts of the circuit through plate resistors.

take a Champ 5F1 circuit for example,  pretend that the preamp 8uf filter cap isn't there,  turn volume to zero.  signal from the the 1st 12AX7 stage goes through the 100K Rp, get isolated from the screen 8uf via the 22k,  and finds its way to the grid of the 6V6 via the 2nd stage's 100K Rp.  the signal is attenuated, but none the less, appears.

this can hit hard if CF plate's aren't filtered well and hit other plate resistors... (no Rp on the CF!)

If you can put an oscilloscope on the output, and a signal generator on the input,  if the signal inverts 180 deg. when the voltage is turned down and off,, that it is a strong-strong-strong indicator of this type of issue.   It might be worth pursuing  even if the amp otherwise sounds good.  If this is occurring (and the ghost signal is out of phase) the out of phase signal is always there:  when volume is turned down and "off", the inverted signal is what you hear through the speaker, and when the volume is turned up, the inverted  signal is still there, only now it is cancelling (attenuating) some amount of your real, intended signal.  Turn your volume down slowly,,  volume probably drops.. drops... then almost disappears completely,,(maybe at "1" or "2"), and then,, as you continue to turn down,, the sound from the speaker increases just a bit as you get to "zero".   the point where the volume was the lowest (at "1" or "2") is where the two out of phase signals cancel out.

NOW... if this same thing is happening but the signals aren't out of phase,,  there is no attenuation.... (but it still might bug you.... :-)  )

This is based on my experience of fixing my own mistakes!!  If I have the wrong take on what is actually happening,, let me know....

thanks for sharing..  pics looks great.

Offline ajeffcote

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Re: Question About Parasitic Oscillation-Resolved, Thank You
« Reply #47 on: October 29, 2013, 08:10:16 am »
Hmmm......I checked the caps "in circuit" but I guess I need to lift the grounds from each separately to check for leakage. I was experiencing something similar to what you describe.
Any further troubleshooting will be strictly for educational purposes as I like the way it sounds as is. And I do want to get this nailed down.
I have to put any further attempts on hold for a while. Other duties (honey-do's) are piling up constantly, faster than I can perform them.
So, thank you for more food for thought. I'll post results when I get them.

Offline terminalgs

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Re: Question About Parasitic Oscillation-Resolved, Thank You
« Reply #48 on: October 29, 2013, 09:53:42 am »
Hmmm......I checked the caps "in circuit" but I guess I need to lift the grounds from each separately to check for leakage. I was experiencing something similar to what you describe.
Any further troubleshooting will be strictly for educational purposes as I like the way it sounds as is. And I do want to get this nailed down.

you could even test with a extra 22uf with alligator clips on either side.  with a good solid ground on the (-) side, attach the (+) lead to various points in the B+ circuit:  B+ side of plate resistors, the (+) of existing 22uf caps, etc..  with the volume at zero, and a strum-strum on the guitar, you'll narrow it down quickly.  (RESPECT that high voltage and stored capacitance: power off and drain caps before moving leads).

for testing purposes, it won't hurt anything to temporarily increase the capacitance of any of the filter caps with a parallel 22uf or 10uf cap (except, adding capacitance at the first one at the GZ34 deserves some thought, but (1)  the noise probably isn't there and (2) adding 22uf or 10uf is somewhat  minor.

the good news is, if you like the way it sounds, it'll probably sound better when you track down this potentially attenuating out-of-phase noise.

Offline jpdesroc

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Re: Question About Parasitic Oscillation.. Same DRRI issue resolved..
« Reply #49 on: June 09, 2017, 09:05:59 am »
Same DRRI issue resolved..
I had this bad oscillations (around 5khz buzz) passed around 5 on the volume
controls (channel 1 or 2). No oscillations below 5 on vols.
These oscillations got worst when the reverb pot was raised.
Was oscillating with V3 removed or not. It stopped completely
whenever I had V4 removed (using channel 1). Then I saw elsewhere on the web that
a tech worked on a same DRRI oscillation issue and found the problem to be
bad(s) supply filter capacitors.
So I had a look at all the caps under the top filter caps metal hood.
Guess what !
C33 22uf/500v was completely open (Z test point)
C32 47uf/500v was leaking at its positive end.
So paralleled C33 with a good 22uf cap and VOILŔ !
All the oscillations were gone.
One note: even when oscillating at the speaker output
C33 positive lead (Z test point) was not showing any signs
of oscillation when check on the scope (DC only with little ripple)!!
--> Don't mess too long with xxxxpf cap values
placed on some offending (oscillating nodes) circuit parts..
The original circuit should work with stock parts !
I replaced ALL the electrolytic caps under the hood
and the amp is doing fine now.
Hope this will help you.
BTW the offending caps where Illinois Capacitor branded.
This is not the first time I stumble on bad IC capacitors..
It was on a Peavey Joe Satriani combo.
J-Pierre

 


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