Parallel different cap types for better tone?

[SILVERGUN]

I recently was tweaking a tone stack in a D'lite style experiment and decided to change the mid cap to .033uf, per some earlier instruction from tubenit...
I had originally used a Orange Drop (polyester) 6PS type .022 in that position, and decided to parallel a Mallory 150 (metalized polyprop.) .01 to get to my new value.....and that shifted the mid freq. response control of the pot as expected.
I was pleasantly surprised to find that it also seemed to add some "harmonic content" to the overall tone that made the mids sound more "alive" and rich....just better in general IMO
So, I decided to go the distance and do this to every coupling cap in the path, and I believe that it HAS made a noticeable improvement in the overall "depth, fullness, sparkle, and/or richness" of the tone.......of course this is subjective,and I could've convinced myself that it was happening, but I just wanted to bring it up and see if anyone else can confirm or agree with my findings?

Is there a theoretical explanation for why this might be true?....maybe there's something to technique of using the dissimilar caps?
And maybe someone will find this to be a valuable tweak...?.....for now,I'm gonna plan on leaving enough space to utilize this technique on my next board.
I'm curious to know what you guys think about this?
I really think I'm hearing a noticeable "improvement" in tone.

[HotBluePlates]

... Mallory 150 (metalized polyprop.) ...

Those are metallized polyester, so maybe less difference than you expected. (data sheet) I didn't know Mallory was now owned by Cornell-Dubilier.

... Is there a theoretical explanation for why this might be true?....maybe there's something to technique of using the dissimilar caps? ...

There's a theoretical basis for bypassing a large electrolytic cap with a small film cap, but that scenario usually has a 100:1 or greater ratio between cap values.

I dunno about the paralleled caps, as I've never tried it (for a purely tonal change). Maybe if you could get someone to switch between paralleled caps and a single of the same total value, you could confirm/deny what you'e hearing.

[Tom_Hull]

hi

I parallel the caps in the guitar. bumble bees .015 and fastcap ..0068.
I hear a difference,,,its sounds better to me ,,,,  but I have no way to test it .and I have put all types in that guitar

tom

[SILVERGUN]

Maybe if you could get someone to switch between paralleled caps and a single of the same total value, you could confirm/deny what you'e hearing.

That's a great, very obvious idea
My breadboard didn't come with a "Breadboards for Dummies" book    \

I parallel the caps in the guitar.

Thanks Tom....I didn't think about that aspect,,,but yeah, I guess this could have multiple uses

[HotBluePlates]

The trick is to get someone else to do the switching, so you don't fool yourself into hearing a difference with each switch click.

[SILVERGUN]

The trick is to get someone else to do the switching, so you don't fool yourself into hearing a difference with each switch click.

Smart.....make it a blind test

I have to admit,,,,when I first came around here and was reading about guys being able to hear a difference between coupling cap types,,,I thought to myself....."Really?,,,are you kidding me?,,,,could it make that much difference?"

It takes sitting alone with something that you have 50 hours into to realize that IT ALL MATTERS!

[HotBluePlates]

I can hear differences between cap types in certain circuits.

I believe a cap value change makes a bigger difference. But if you want the last couple-percent, then cap type changes might get you there.

No one in the audience will hear the difference; your engineer could probably EQ the difference in a recording.

[alerich]

This guy is into the whole "cap stacking" thing.   http://aga.rru.com/Events/MM-DRRI-rebuild/

I can hear a difference between different cap types if the whole amp is shotgunned. When someone pulls all the Mallory type coupling caps (or the blue molded caps) out of a Fender amp and replaces them with Orange Drops I can hear the difference. It's not huge but it is noticeable. It just about has to be a wholesale swap for me to notice. Changing one cap from polypropylene to polyester or vice versa usually isn't significant enough for me to be able to tell. Ergo, the whole theory of cap stacking seems to have merit. It might make more sense to me if amps weren't equipped with tone controls. A nudge of the treble and/or bass knob either way pretty much renders the point moot to me.

[thermion]

I do this a fair amount, mostly bypassing electrolytics in the early preamp stages with OD, solen, etc. This is when I'm at the end of a build and am in "seasoning" phase. These are not earth-shattering changes and will not turn a yugo into a porsche. My goal is to overcome various lackluster characteristics of one cap type with another without radical revoicing of the stage.

[SILVERGUN]

No one in the audience will hear the difference

I have to keep reminding myself of that   
I'm guessing that I'm just hearing the best of both worlds, and it makes me want to try some different types of caps.....this is just what I keep in stock here

This guy is into the whole "cap stacking" thing.

I think Mikey is onto something there......
And so we have "new" terminology......Cap Stacking

I do this a fair amount, mostly bypassing electrolytics in the early preamp stages with OD, solen, etc.

Do you mean that you mostly do this on bypass caps?
If so, I'd suggest trying it for a coupling cap or two and see if you hear a difference

[sluckey]

Mikey enabled me to get back into this hobby about 10-11 years ago. Met him on AGA. Very nice and helpful guy. He had recently started rebuilding DRRI with Hoffman's AB763 boards and he sold me a complete set of iron from one of the DRRIs. That iron was put in my TDR, but now lives in my 5E3.

[Tom_Hull]

Hi

Added after posting

I meant black beauties instead of bees as the bees that I have are dying as the black beauties are holding on to life
...

I remember trying the a parallel cap in the tremolo circuit with bumble bees reading around .068 and did not like it .it was a fastcap not sure of the value  .and just left the bees in

it sounded like it a synthesiser or effects pedal ... I thought of adding a switch to that cap .but
did not do it .

tom

[Ed_Chambley]

I have a friend who has been doing HAM radio most all his life.  He is older now and doesn't do much with his equipment and parts he has gathered over the years.   He does not play an instrument, but knows electronics.  Anyway, he build a 5E3 for fun after he saw mine.  Since he doesn't subscribe to any certain part having Mojo, he used caps and resistors he had on hand.  I ordered him the same Trannys I have in mine.  When he finished he asked me to look it over.  He did a great job (better than me) but there was not a single cap in the amp I recognized.  Some of them looked like resistors, some aluminum and some were big and brown and said TRW on them.  A couple were yellow and had wire leads.  I remember the bypass on v1 was a panasonic.  We fired it up and everything checked out fine.  His cabinet was a Tweed from Mojo, mine is flame maple.  He asked me what speaker I liked best and I said a Blue 12 Celestion was my favorite.  He put one in it.

Needless to say, his sounds better than mine with the Caps with Mojo.  Sure, we can all hear differences.  Even differences between exact amps with the same caps.  So I think the majority of our tone comes from the OT and speaker.  If I plug mine into his cabinet without A/Bing them, I cannot tell any difference.  Mine sounds better plugged into his cabinet.

That is a Weber Ceramic 12F150 25 watts vs a Celestion blue.

Does that mean I am not going to use caps filled with extra virgin olive oil rolled on the thighs of the playmate of the year?  Well hell no, I am much too brain washed for that.

I stole that comment from HBP and have used it 3 times now and gave credit each time.  From now on I am claiming it for my own.

[jjasilli]

This is called stacking capacitors.  See:  https://www.google.com/search?q=stacking+capacitors+in+parallel&rlz=1C1RNBN_enUS433US433&oq=stacking+capa&aqs=chrome.3.69i57j69i65j0l4.8264j0j7&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8

Somewhere on the web -- can't find it now -- is an article by a guitar player who took his Fender Princeton to an amp gure for rebuild / mods.  The guru stacked some of the signal caps for tone shaping purposes.  For the intended value I guess you could go 50/50; or that article recommended 1/3 : 2/3 (I think).  Signal caps are probably passing the entire audio spectrum, and different types of caps sound different, especially the way they treat hi & lo frequencies. 

[John]

caps filled with extra virgin olive oil rolled on the thighs of the playmate of the year

...... can't .... find .....   eBay.....


 

[SILVERGUN]

See:  https://www.google.com/search?q=stacking+capacitors+in+parallel&rlz=1C1RNBN_enUS433US433&oq=stacking+capa&aqs=chrome.3.69i57j69i65j0l4.8264j0j7&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8
Signal caps are probably passing the entire audio spectrum, and different types of caps sound different, especially the way they treat hi & lo frequencies. 

I was able to gather this quote from one of those articles:
Vertical stacked capacitors offer even better frequency response characteristics

I guess I just needed to see it in writing to put more stock in what I thought I was hearing

[Ed_Chambley]

caps filled with extra virgin olive oil rolled on the thighs of the playmate of the year

...... can't .... find .....   eBay.....


 

What you lookin for, the caps or the thighs? 

BTW, thanks for the schematic.  I have a new appreciation for the octal preamp.

[SILVERGUN]

Does that mean I am not going to use caps filled with extra virgin olive oil rolled on the thighs of the playmate of the year?  Well hell no, I am much too brain washed for that.

Wel, that's OK.....
I'm suggesting that you pair them up in parallel with some that were hand dipped by the Dalai Lama and your amp WILL sound better than his

I'm going to go all the way out to the output stage coupling caps and see if it gets better still...so far I just did all preamp
I don't really have to worry about value out there, because I'm only at .047 now,,,so I'll just strap on a couple .02's(of the opposite type) and report back

[Ed_Chambley]

See:  https://www.google.com/search?q=stacking+capacitors+in+parallel&rlz=1C1RNBN_enUS433US433&oq=stacking+capa&aqs=chrome.3.69i57j69i65j0l4.8264j0j7&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8
Signal caps are probably passing the entire audio spectrum, and different types of caps sound different, especially the way they treat hi & lo frequencies. 

I was able to gather this quote from one of those articles:
Vertical stacked capacitors offer even better frequency response characteristics

I guess I just needed to see it in writing to put more stock in what I thought I was hearing

So the article states more frequency response with parallel caps.  Tell the truth, I have never done this looking for tone, just testing different values.  Let us know if you find a combination you prefer.  Like was said, 3:1/2:3.  You seem to be having great fun with your breadboard, Dave.  Keep those cards and letters coming.

[SILVERGUN]

I went out to the bench and put some .02 Orange Drop 6PS across the .047 Mallory's that were there (between PI and 6V6 grid) and switched back and forth and could hear the difference in "presence"
I was able to go back and forth between the 2 types by themselves and then together and definitely preferred it with the 2 caps per side,together....

If any of you guys get a chance to try this, I'd love to hear your response.
I definitely deem it thread worthy,,,,,
but like HBP said "the audience won't be able to tell"
For me, building an amp for me, I like the idea of anything that increases frequency response

I'll have to wait for a time where I can get some switches hooked up and have somebody give me the blind test,,,,before I commit to doubling up every cap in the amp 
Right now, the Mallory's alone sound a little less defined, and when I add the 6PS it fills it out nicely,,,,,,but the 6PS alone is a little too bright

[sluckey]

I went out to the bench and put some .02 Orange Drop 6PS across the .047 Mallory's that were there (between PI and 6V6 grid) and switched back and forth and could hear the difference in "presence"

Put a .02 Mallory across the .047 Mallory. How does that sound?

[HotBluePlates]

... put some .02 Orange Drop 6PS across the .047 Mallory's ...

If you switched from the Mallory to the added Orange Drop, you went from 0.047uF to 0.069uF total capacitance.

I would suggest switching from a 0.047uF Mallory to maybe a parallel set of 0.022uF caps (for 0.044uF total).

All bets are off if you change the total capacitance.

[SILVERGUN]

I'll have to wait until tomorrow...
 I left before I read your posts

 My ears are beat anyway

 Just for the record... In every other location except the mid pot I split the value in half and used two equal value caps

[floyd]

You were pleased with the parallel caps.. then you asked approval from the people here .. "science VS. YOU". If you like the tone, then don't seek some kind of "learned ' back-up.

[tubenit]

I have paralleled different types of caps before and definitely heard a tonal difference ........................some of the time.

My conclusion,  ............... sometime this is useful and makes a difference and sometimes it doesn't.  Sometimes it is a positive difference, sometimes it isn't positive.

On another note ................ With the "pf" size caps,  sometimes a silver mica sounds best in some positions.  Sometimes a ceramic sounds better to me. Sometimes it makes no difference that I can tell. Depends on each amp and the position in the amp.  No rule of thumb that I can find.  More like try it and see approach for me.

With respect, Tubenit

[SILVERGUN]

Thanks Sam...I see it a little differently...this is just my way of sharing something that I found,,and looking for a little confirmation, and or thought provoking opinions.........I really respect these guys and hope to provide more than just my opinion, and I'm willing to go back and forth to the  breadboard a couple times,,,and possibly dispel my own myth if I have to, to be able to give a tip that has substance...
I'm already laying out a couple of different cap types .....you know what they say "if MIKEY likes it"
I was hoping someone would say "Yeah I found that if you mixed this brand/type with this one, the heaven's opened up...etc, etc" (typical guitar player  )
If nothing else, this'll give Ed something else to try

[SILVERGUN]

I have paralleled different types of caps before and definitely heard a tonal difference ........................some of the time.

And thats enough for me....
I remember reading...
 "I dont like 715s in this circuit, or Mal.150's in this circuit,,,,,but i do like ______ in ______''.........so that's where some of my curiosity comes from

I also first noticed this when I built my cap decade box and used a Mallory across a 6PS to "make" a couple values that I didn't have on hand....
Those couple values always seemed to have slightly better tone to my ears....

Maybe somewhere along the way it's overkill,,,,,but I usually only perk up when something makes a noticeable difference,,,,and I wanted to make sure I shared this "concept"
A lot of us here have the same addiction 

[Ed_Chambley]

Thanks Sam...I see it a little differently...this is just my way of sharing something that I found,,and looking for a little confirmation, and or thought provoking opinions.........I really respect these guys and hope to provide more than just my opinion, and I'm willing to go back and forth to the  breadboard a couple times,,,and possibly dispel my own myth if I have to, to be able to give a tip that has substance...
I'm already laying out a couple of different cap types .....you know what they say "if MIKEY likes it"
I was hoping someone would say "Yeah I found that if you mixed this brand/type with this one, the heaven's opened up...etc, etc" (typical guitar player  )
If nothing else, this'll give Ed something else to try

Ed has already tried it.  After you posted this thread I began reading about it.  Last night I took a single channel AB763 Deluxe build.  Replaced the Orange Drops and Sozo blues.  I paralleled everything with some NOS aerocaps (hifi caps) along with some yellow Sozo's.  My thinking was the Hifi caps in conjunction with a typical mustard cap could extend frequency.  I tried as best as I could to not make the caps 50/50.  In every case I could I matched capacitance using unequal caps which closely added up to needed values and tried to make the Sozo the larger.  I was able to do it in every location except one.

I thought it was an interesting proposal.  The amp changed quite a bit, but I expected it to some.  I did not notice and frequency extension.  Tonight I am planning to replace everything with single yellow Sozo caps to see it the other have influence.  I have not measured frequency, but my thinking is if you can only see it on a scope and do not hear it, it doesn't matter anyway.

I let you know what I find.  Hopefully, I can get to it this evening.

[SILVERGUN]

I tried as best as I could to not make the caps 50/50.

Was there something you read that suggested that this would be the preferred method,,,or did you just want to hear more of the Sozo?
I breezed through the Mikey article and saw some reference, but no conclusive "formula"

I have not measured frequency, but my thinking is if you can only see it on a scope and do not hear it, it doesn't matter anyway.

Maybe it's the other way around.....it might not show up on the scope as any major influence, but our ear meters might be telling us something more

[SILVERGUN]

I went out with fresh ears (as fresh as they get) and started by trying sluckey's idea of putting a Mallory 150 in parallel with another Mallory 150
First I ran it with just the .047 by itself to give myself a point of reference,,,and then added the .02 and really didn't notice much(if any) difference
I would describe the tone as having a slightly muffled, somewhat flat, almost dull quality (compared to what I remember from last night)

But when I replaced the Mal. .02 with an OD 6PS .02, the tone seemed to tighten up, and fill out in the upper mids/highs nicely and although it wasn't a tremendous difference, it was a noticeable improvement.....and it did seem like I was just adding the quality of the 6PS to the quality of the Mal........and maybe I just got lucky that these 2 caps complement each other...

This does seem to be a worthwhile endeavor,,,and maybe I'm really slicing hairs now, BUT I assume you could work the formula whichever way you wanted to expose more or less of the quality of one cap over another....

I can give it another hour tonight, but I wanted to get this written down while it was still fresh.........soooooo, back at it

[SILVERGUN]

I addressed HBP's concern that I might be hearing the effect of just increasing capacitance,,, by starting fresh with the Mal. .047's,,,and then removing them and replacing them with .022's of each type.......and I still prefer the combination of caps to the single cap of one type.
I also tried a Vitamin Q .01 in place of the 6PS, and didn't get as good of a result (maybe it's too much like the Mal 150)
I'm sure that the biggest change came when I did this to these PI to PA coupling caps,,,because when I went back through the preamp to try to impact change, it wasn't as obvious to me......
So I would say if you want to try this and really hear the biggest impact, do both PI to PA caps.

I'm not sure how much further I'll go with this,,,,but I have confirmed in my mind, that in this instance,,it's worth while
I also took a minute and looked at it on the scope, and from what I saw, there was no apparent change in the waveform...
I tried it with a signal gen. and "hot clipped" the 6PS on one side as I monitored it, and the wave form didn't budge.

But it definitely sounded better IMHO

[Ed_Chambley]

I tried as best as I could to not make the caps 50/50.

Was there something you read that suggested that this would be the preferred method,,,or did you just want to hear more of the Sozo?
I breezed through the Mikey article and saw some reference, but no conclusive "formula"

My reasoning is from jjasilli comments, and thinking about what I have found using the aerocaps.  I am very familiar with the Sozo yellows in most values used in most locations.  Using the aerocaps alone it will sound for lack of a better word, weak.  However, they do bring in a acoustic quality.  What I was doing was using caps I have found to be the most opposite sounding.  Hey, if I gonna solder something I want to notice a change.

Normally I just say I cannot hear any difference in caps.  The reason is there is a lot of information spread about them that other players read.  Until the explosion of Boutique amps, I had never heard a player say what caps are in his amp.  Like AES has on sale for 2 caps $92.75 marked down from 103.05 Guaranteed to make your Epiphone Les Paul sound like 59, whatever that sounds like. Bumblebees.  OK, I will step down from my soap box now.

Last night I did the 50/50, but used different caps and a 50 watt plexi build I am going to add a master volume for a guy.  OD 715 and Sozo blues where I had correct values.  Where I did not I used I paired the 715's with some old blue molded I have.  So basically using in a Marshall what I would in a fender.  I want to hear a change.

Well I can tell you this, if it were not someone else's amp I would leave it.  For me, I usually have to tweak a plexi tone stack as the bass is generally overpowering to me.  The reason I did this is I have a amp exactly like this one.  Both were built by me using identical parts.  The difference is it gained more note separation, but as always it is give and take.  The swirly plexi clean was still there, but not as prevalent.  Still sounded good.  I was A/Bing with the same guitar and cabinet.

Of course, I never believe what I hear at first as it seems my ears quickly get tired.  Took a break and began replacing them one at a time back to single Sozo yellows.  Starting with the PI coupling caps and working towards V1.  When I changed the V1B Bypass cap the Plexi tone we all know said here I am.

What I do not know is if it were that cap or a combination of this one along with the others.  If I were to guess I would think it would be a combination.

Seemed like there was a difference, but I cannot say for sure yet that it is due to the 2 caps, but as I think about it you would have to share some of the qualities of both caps and I do believe it would work best in tweaking a clean tone to increase touch sensitivity.

I have a Brown 6g3a Deluxe which is in need of some attention.  I have never liked it as it rather stiff and flat sounding.  Mostly original so I will probably make another board for it.  Players seem to like this amp, but I think because it is brown and old.  It will take me a while to get to it, but I think out of all the amps I have this will be the best candidate to see if I can get it to be a little more lively.

No, the audience would not notice.  I did do the blind test.  I got my wife to listen (she is a musician) and asked her to listen for any difference.  She said they are the same amp and looked at me like she always does, with a touch of "he is way overboard with this stuff".  Most Bass players think I am crazy when it comes to this stuff.  When I switch them the look went away.  She immediately said the eq is set differently.  I played and she adjusted and the amps were different.

Then she went back upstairs convinced I am crazy.  I told her the source of the insanity is in Pennsylvania.  I did have fun tho, and that is the main thing.

[SILVERGUN]

Nice writing Ed....thanks for taking the time to do that and share your results.
I started this post specifically foir guys like you, who I knew would appreciate this,,,,and who are usually looking for those last few percentage points towards perfection.....I have tried to refrain from starting a new thread every time I have a successful bowel movement,,,,so I am glad to know that this one wasn't wasted on you.

I agree about the note separation comment, and that's kinda what I meant when I said "tightened up"
I am focusing this current experimentation on the overdrive channel of a D'lite,, and I was noticing that is was sounding muddied up and lacking clarity and dimension with just Mallory 150's after the PI.
So when I heard the difference that this cap stacking made in just one preamp coupling cap position, it made sense to me to try it in the PI to PA spot,,,,and that's where I heard the biggest improvement in dimension, clarity, and note separation.

I currently have 3 other amps here that are "open", and I'll be continuing to try to find the magic formula in each of those.
I still feel like I may have gotten lucky by the fact that the 6PS's seem to compliment the 150's

I stopped telling my wife what I'm up to,,,but my R+D team (a couple of no talent ass clown welding machine techs) can hear a difference too
 

[jojokeo]

Nice writing Ed....thanks for taking the time to do that and share your results.
I started this post specifically foir guys like you, who I knew would appreciate this,,,,and who are usually looking for those last few percentage points towards perfection.....

I have tried to refrain from starting a new thread every time I have a successful bowel movement,,,,so I am glad to know that this one wasn't wasted on you.
I still feel like I may have gotten lucky by the fact that the 6PS's seem to compliment the 150's

I stopped telling my wife what I'm up to,,,but my R+D team (a couple of no talent ass clown welding machine techs) can hear a difference too

Comment 1: there's always people lurking, reading, waiting, maybe trying, etc...so don't feel anything's not appreciated or you're alone on something

Comments 2 & 3 : 

ps - I've mostly heard that guys like to use ODs with Fenderish type amps and yellows for the high gainer Marshally ones...(likely because of how they look?  )

[HotBluePlates]

... I've mostly heard that guys like to use ODs with Fenderish type amps and yellows for the high gainer Marshally ones...

His orange drops aren't the typical orange drops.

For the longest time, if you bought OD's from a vendor you got 715P, which are polypropylene dielectric. He seems to have the smaller polyester dielectric caps.

Polypropylene caps in general sound to me almost like the mids are scooped, or that the bass and treble are extended. Polyester caps seems to have less highs to me, and by comparison the mids seems more prominent.

Since the molded blue caps were polyester, you'd think everyone would want those for a Fender. But polypropylene OD's seem to acentuate the mid-scoop in the amp and somehow they became the "upgrade cap".

[SILVERGUN]

Comment 1: there's always people lurking, reading, waiting, maybe trying, etc...so don't feel anything's not appreciated or you're alone on something

Thanks jojo,,,good to see you............
I had a feeling someone would read it that way,,,,but it's not what I meant to imply
Man,,, if we were all sitting in the same room this would be A LOT more fun.....
Sometimes reading words on a page doesn't tell the whole story......I know you all know that

I meant to say that I was putting this out there because I thought it was more important than some other things that I had learned in the last little while......my ears are so questionable, that when something really stands out to me, itmustbe working
And sometimes during a thread I start to treat it like a one on one conversation with the one other person who seems most interested, or the one I think it applies to the most.......I know from reading Ed's posts that he is just as obsessed as me  

Dare I say, I heard more of a positive change in tone with this adjustment, then when switching brands of power tubes?....or bias adjustments?

For some reason I have found myself using the new white Mallory 150's in the power section in every amp I have done,,,,,and maybe it's because I like the way they look too?  
And you know what,,,,they all suffer from that same "lack of definition" that I keep mentioning...
So now I'm gonna go back and strap 6PS's across all of 'em and see what happens...

I only keep those 2 types on hand....and here's some more honesty---- ever since I read somewhere that Dumble used the 6PS type, I've been buying them up and using them in everything......except post PI for some silly reason,,,,And then I accidently put them together and BAM....something cool to share with "the boys"
And even though I don't have much of an educated technical background,,,,I have a strange desire to know "why?"
Even though I probably wouldn't understand the explanation if PRR broke it down to a molecular level for me..........

For now I want to believe that we are just mixing the qualities of the 2 different materials, and it's working......to some extent that excites me, and makes me want to share the joy.

And just for the record....I am in no way delusional enough to believe that I just "discovered" something....but it is kinda cool to be provoking thought in guys that have much more experience than I...
Hanging around here keeps me honest.
 

Thank you for your cap descriptions HBP,,,,I'll eventually be trying others in hopes of finding the secret sauce
And thanks for straightening me out on the 150 spec sheet....I would've been going around assuming there was something to mixing polyester with polypropylene.........who knows----maybe there is?  

Is this really fun or am I just a masochist?

[phsyconoodler]

No it's really fun. I'm going to parallel every cap in my next amp build just for fun.
  I definitely hear rather large differences between brands of caps so why not paralleled?
I get flamed quite regularly on the gear page,but I could give  a fat rat's ass about those trolls.I hear it so that's good enough for me.

[SILVERGUN]

No it's really fun. I'm going to parallel every cap in my next amp build just for fun.

Cool, let us know what you hear....
I read about 90% of your posts and always wish I could lend more of a hand....
It makes me feel good to contribute on some level.....after all I've learned from you guys

This one was a pleasant surprise....
I really didn't want one more thing to think about when tweaking an amp 

[Ed_Chambley]

No it's really fun. I'm going to parallel every cap in my next amp build just for fun.
  I definitely hear rather large differences between brands of caps so why not paralleled?
I get flamed quite regularly on the gear page,but I could give  a fat rat's ass about those trolls.I hear it so that's good enough for me.

I think the reason people may flame is it is not fun to them.  You know, misery loves company.  That is the whole reason I do this.  It is fun to me and gives me the opportunity to disconnect from my real work life.  I would assume if I relied entirely on income from tube amp repair, I may consider this foolishness as well as it would be a waste of time and cost more.  But if you become the local Guru, it may be worth it.

SG, Joe is absolutely correct.  I spent almost 3 years lurking this forum before I ordered any parts from Doug.  I did not know who Doug was and believe it or not, I never noticed the parts moving across were for sale.  I was a member of the Metro forum and most of those guys like to experiment, but they get a little funny acting as you get the feeling the JTM 45 circuit is the Holy Grail and should be stock.

Now, your thread kept on churning in my mind. So I needed to find out where in the plexi was the largest change.  I used 715 OD again, but this time with genuine mullard mustards.  The reason I did not do this before is that I do not have enough lower values to do a whole amp.  HBP mention of construction materials and how 715 seem to have a mid scoop.  Color does not matter, but the Marshall did use them.  Probably because of availability, but you kind of have to admit they are partially responsible for the Marshall tone.

In the PI coupling caps I noticed a slight change, thinking I would get the same results as you I tried here first.  I found in the 1987 the tone stack caps make a little more change, but without a doubt the the plate bypass caps on V1a and b make the largest change which was a big surprise.  I guess it is just like noise, any change to v1 gets amplified the most.  I also measured the capacitance and my parallels were sightly lower in capacitance, but only by just under 2%.

Maybe one of the guys that understand circuits better than me can give an opinion as to why this could happen.  It would be great to know where it has influence and where not.  Initially I thought it would be the same in every circuit, but I have found it not to be.

[Ed_Chambley]

Comment 1: there's always people lurking, reading, waiting, maybe trying, etc...so don't feel anything's not appreciated or you're alone on something

I only keep those 2 types on hand....

Thank you for your cap descriptions HBP,,,,I'll eventually be trying others in hopes of finding the secret sauce
And thanks for straightening me out on the 150 spec sheet....I would've been going around assuming there was something to mixing polyester with polypropylene.........who knows----maybe there is?  

Is this really fun or am I just a masochist?

Dave, you may need to make a ham fest.  Just saying.  I attend most antique radio shows and a few ham fests every year.  At the ham fests I can buy hands full of caps for nearly nothing.  All different types.  Some are really awful in a signal chain, but I ran across some general purpose caps (see attachment) that I like very much.  Guy was selling them for 10¢ each and had every value imaginable.  I only bought 10, but I did get his phone number.  Called him back and he sold me a few hundred for next to nothing.

[SILVERGUN]

Thanks again for taking the time to do that and share....
I tend to get a little impatient and not run through every avenue (usually because my dinner is waiting at home for me),,,,so I probably just would've continued to assume that the biggest difference would show up after the PI.

but without a doubt the the plate bypass caps on V1a and b make the largest change which was a big surprise.

I need to check my terminology on this one.....if I was to think of a plate bypass cap, I would picture the one pictured,,,,,but I don't see any of these in the 1987

[SILVERGUN]

Dave, you may need to make a ham fest.  Just saying.  I attend most antique radio shows and a few ham fests every year.  At the ham fests I can buy hands full of caps for nearly nothing.  All different types.  Some are really awful in a signal chain, but I ran across some general purpose caps (see attachment) that I like very much.  Guy was selling them for 10¢ each and had every value imaginable.  I only bought 10, but I did get his phone number.  Called him back and he sold me a few hundred for next to nothing.

Good to know.....that's funny that you say that.....because I had read somewhere that you mentioned attending hamfests on a different thread,,,so I found my local schedule,,,,and then made the mistake of looking at the pictures (to get a feel of what I was in store for).......and OH BOY  did it ever look like a Snore-Fest 
I knew I still should've gone.......

[Ed_Chambley]

Nice writing Ed....thanks for taking the time to do that and share your results.
I started this post specifically foir guys like you, who I knew would appreciate this,,,,and who are usually looking for those last few percentage points towards perfection.....

I have tried to refrain from starting a new thread every time I have a successful bowel movement,,,,so I am glad to know that this one wasn't wasted on you.
I still feel like I may have gotten lucky by the fact that the 6PS's seem to compliment the 150's

I stopped telling my wife what I'm up to,,,but my R+D team (a couple of no talent ass clown welding machine techs) can hear a difference too

Comment 1: there's always people lurking, reading, waiting, maybe trying, etc...so don't feel anything's not appreciated or you're alone on something

Comments 2 & 3 : 

ps - I've mostly heard that guys like to use ODs with Fenderish type amps and yellows for the high gainer Marshally ones...(likely because of how they look?  )

Did it not create a big problem when mallory changed from white to yellow and back to white.  If you have yellow mallorys in a high gain build, when you eventually need to recap you can't put those fender white mallorys back in can you?  They will be to clean wont they?

Anyway, Vishay purchased Mallory for 43 million and placed them under Cornell and moved most of the manufacturing to Mexico.  I have quite a few Mexican ones and the next Radio I repair I am going to use them.  Then when I turn it on I'll be on a Mexican Radio.

   Thank you, thank you very much.

[Ed_Chambley]

Thanks again for taking the time to do that and share....
I tend to get a little impatient and not run through every avenue (usually because my dinner is waiting at home for me),,,,so I probably just would've continued to assume that the biggest difference would show up after the PI.

but without a doubt the the plate bypass caps on V1a and b make the largest change which was a big surprise.

I need to check my terminology on this one.....if I was to think of a plate bypass cap, I would picture the one pictured,,,,,but I don't see any of these in the 1987

Check the attachment.  I am probably wrong with the term, but this is where I get it.

If I am incorrect, please correct me.  I do not like to use the wrong terms.

[6G6]

I think there may be something to this.
If you can add a very small value cap to a big filter cap to take out unheard
oscillations, why wouldn't closer value caps also be able to act slightly differently
when parralleled?

In any case, keep it coming, as it makes us think.

[Ed_Chambley]

Dave, you may need to make a ham fest.  Just saying.  I attend most antique radio shows and a few ham fests every year.  At the ham fests I can buy hands full of caps for nearly nothing.  All different types.  Some are really awful in a signal chain, but I ran across some general purpose caps (see attachment) that I like very much.  Guy was selling them for 10¢ each and had every value imaginable.  I only bought 10, but I did get his phone number.  Called him back and he sold me a few hundred for next to nothing.

Good to know.....that's funny that you say that.....because I had read somewhere that you mentioned attending hamfests on a different thread,,,so I found my local schedule,,,,and then made the mistake of looking at the pictures (to get a feel of what I was in store for).......and OH BOY  did it ever look like a Snore-Fest 
I knew I still should've gone.......

Dave, sometimes they are snore fests as most of the people are a little older and do not have Iphones.  Meeting just a couple of the guys there can be very beneficial as these guys are really DIY types.  Most are retired and love to talk about and share knowledge.  I am 49 and they call me kid or the Redheaded Stepchild.

[Willabe]

Ed, I think you mean "coupling cap"? It's the cap that goes between the plate to the next stages grid.


             Brad     

[jojokeo]

Anyway, Vishay purchased Mallory for 43 million and placed them under Cornell and moved most of the manufacturing to Mexico.  I have quite a few Mexican ones and the next Radio I repair I am going to use them.  Then when I turn it on I'll be on a Mexican Radio.

Sorry, couldn't help it  http://youtu.be/eyCEexG9xjw

[SILVERGUN]

Ed, I think you mean "coupling cap"? It's the cap that goes between the plate to the next stages grid.

I'm with Brad....that's what I'd call it

And I did notice the change there as well.....right after I did the mid cap, I just moved on down the line and did the next coupling cap

Dave, sometimes they are snore fests as most of the people are a little older and do not have Iphones.  Meeting just a couple of the guys there can be very beneficial as these guys are really DIY types.  Most are retired and love to talk about and share knowledge.  I am 49 and they call me kid or the Redheaded Stepchild.

Yeah,,,and I don't mean to sound disrespectful by calling it a Snore-Fest
I'm actually kinda dissappointed that it took me this long in life to figure out where I "shoulda" been
I'll have to leave the wife at home and just go appreciate it for what it is.

Sorry, couldn't help it 

WOW, I'm gonna have to ask sluckey to remove that noise from my thread 

[jojokeo]

SG, I can remove if wanted but thought maybe there's some young or older amp-aholics that may not have ever heard that before?

Out of all the discussion and effort here I want to capitalize on the moment to find out if you, Ed, or anyone else has also tested & used the outside foil in the proper manner while conducting these tests?